A call to arms: Where do we focus after the recount?

[KerryDownUnder]

The OH recount appears likely to only change the results by a couple hundred votes at most. The Repugs are going to throw this back at us and claim that this "proves" their win was legit. As much as I appreciate all the time that is going into all of the different efforts to shine a spotlight on OH voting irregularities, there needs to be a single and concise rebuttal that will gain traction with the public at large IMO. Where should the attention be leveled? At Triad and voting machine manipulations? At the lack of voting machines? At the partisan nature of Blackwell's actions? I know, there's so much to choose from, but what issue do you think gives us the best chance to slap America awake and convince a Democratic senator to stand up and challenge the results?

[crispini]

1. well my two cents would be

long lines, lack of voting machines and the fact that a lot of the voting machines appear to have been deliberately with-held from D precincts even when they were asked for. IMO this issue is:
- easy to understand,
- obviously corrupt,
- explains why the votes aren't there (people had to go to work, school etc.)

Or -- different thought -- I also thought it would probably help to review Arnebeck's case and pick stuff out of there to sort of back him up.

[bones_7672]

2. However, that isn't enough to prove fraud, but

it should be used to improve how future elections are held.

[berniew1]

4. There has been huge amounts of fraud found: haven't you been observing?

[demo dutch]

31. 10 hour waits and not enough machines that's where the

fraud happened!!! Pre-meditated disenfranchisement

[mod mom]

18. I agree Civil Rights and Equal protection under the Law

Who can argue that 5-10 hour waits are fair?

[demodonkey]

3. Recount main goal isn't to overturn election but rather to...

bring problems to light. And it sure has done that.

"Proves their WIN"? HA! MANY problems with the recount itself...

3% "random" precincts NOT random.

Pre-sorted ballots with NO chads in "random" precincts.

Triad techs fixing machines before recount.

New software installed prior to recount.

Lots more coming to light daily. (This recount is NOT over yet.) After the dust settles we need to consolidate everything from the recount.

THEN -- Definitely the recount has raised enough concern to boost the call for Election Reform (including recount reform). We need to keep on this issue no matter what happens with the "outcome" of the recount. BIG TIME. The Green Party (and I am not a Green myself) does have some good suggestions for election reform... their ideas are at least a good starting place to look at.

What say you?

[OKthatsIT]

5. Unless we get a million people to March on Wasgington

The Senate will ignore us.

[marions ghost]

6. Beyond recounts...

These are the top issues mentioned to me by election skeptics from both parties after Nov 2:

Exit polls always accurate--find out what happened
Auditless voting no good
Get rid of the electoral college
Too much partisanship in the system
HAVA hurt more than it helped
Punish voter suppression and intimidation as a federal offense
(no teeth in local laws about this)

---------------------
As for slapping America awake--

I think the most important thing to get across is how widespread the problem is, that Ohio is just the tip of the iceberg. You can't isolate this--Ohio is a microcosm of the entire country's dysfunctional election system. After 2000, this is an insult to every voter in America. This is why the election must be challenged in Congress. Voter confidence will be eroded for any future election if not addressed now.

[gulogulo]

8. "Exit polls always accurate" -

this has become one of those myths that get repeated and repeated, while being clearly incorrect. Final exit polls, weighted and calibrated, are usually pretty accurate. Raw exit polls can be and have been wildly off-mark.

see http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005178.php

He looks at the previous four presidential elections' exit polls

"As you can see, the raw exit poll results always overstate the Democratic vote, sometimes by as much as eight percentage points. So the fact that the raw results this year overstated Kerry's actual vote tally is hardly cause for alarm."

[marions ghost]

10. OK--a debatable point....

...however your link contains discussion from both sides of the question.
-------------
Another comment from Washington Monthly link:

"I find it absolutely astonishing that results can be off from the exit polls by as much as 9 or 10% here, and we hardly bat an eye, but in the Ukraine, the results and exit polls are mismatched to the same degree and we use that fact to call their entire election illegitimate."

I think people on both sides are saying we need to understand exit polls in a way we haven't before--there's no simple answer.

[gulogulo]

13. If you want to know more than you

probably wanted to know about exit polls, and polling in general:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. Read what the

Arnebeck suit has to say about the egregiously distinguished (and undisputed) record of accuracy in elections by Mitovsky's exit-polls, world-wide.

Then, about the screen-shots taken of the exit polls from 47 states, I think, and the subequent "fiddling" with the figures to match the final purported vote-count. Ohio will do.

[gulogulo]

15. Ok -

1. Mitofsky only does polling in the US - so I am sure Arnebeck has nothing to say of his record of accuracy "world-wide".

2. Read www.mysterypollster.com - it is very illuminating.

3. New Hampshire - Mitofsky's raw exit poll data was egregiously wrong, as shown by Nader's subsequent partial recount. Why could this data be demonstrably wrong in NH and could not be wrong in other places?

[Joe Chi Minh]

25. No, I think

it would be more beneficial if you studied the egregious credentials of Mitovski in the sphere of election verification, cited by Arnebeck in his suit. It was perhaps the *world-wide* recognition of the sovereign reliability of the relevant exit-poll methodology that Arnebeck was lauding. He clearly makes the connection, in any case, with Mitovski.

As regards, the technicalities you would, in principle, I'm sure, be immeasuraby more competent to understand them. But, alas, the mere fact of the concentration of you and your colleagues on technicalities, in the face of 57000 complaints by American voters prompts me, I'm afraid, to question your good faith. And that can only lead to your engaging in technical arguments that would be at best mistaken.

Neveretheless, I suspect that your arguments will surely serve a good purpose, in that the experts will methodically rebutt them, and clarify the issues for the professionals in the lawsuits. At least, Arnebeck's.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

21. DIfferences in accuracy

There is a story linked on another thread where Green Party candidate Cobb pointed out that the exit polling for the state and local races in Colorado was accurate within the margin of error, but that Bush won by much more than the polls predicted.

This disparity is another reason I suspect widespread fraud. The statisticians among us might find this interesting to explore.

BTW, the link above shows raw data that turned out to be in error, but I don't remember a TV network calling a key state wrong prior to Florida in 2000.

[Griffy]

7. BE IN DC on january 6th THATS THE DATE ..... plan now nt

[ivorysteve]

9. How about full Ohio hand recounts?

One thing I haven't seen here is what the statute of limitations is on the Ohio paper ballots. I'd like to see a full hand recount done (even if it's after the inauguration) on the Ohio counties, or even some of them, much like was done in Florida. Is there a possibility that our beloved SOS would destroy the only evidence we have of his coup before this could be done? I think this should be a priority, even if Arnebeck's legal case is thrown out by the Ohio courts.

[European Socialist]

11. How about a Kerry news conference revealing 5 years of repuke election

fraud!!!

[Snivi Yllom]

12. 2006 and 2008

[slackmaster]

16. Amen to that

2004 is over. It's dead.

Let's focus on WINNING in 2006 and 2008.

:toast:

[marions ghost]

17. That's what we ARE doing...

talking about how to win in 06 and 08. First remedy the dysfunctional system -- make real gains in nationwide election reform by 06. Voter confidence is everything.

[mod mom]

19. Are you serious?

We let it slide in 2000 and look what happened. We MUST not let this die! What good is preparing for 2006 and 2008 when our wins in 2000 and 2004 have been denied. These crooks are not going to roll over and say they are tired, it's our turn. Fight them until they are all in prison! this is not about dem vs. repugs. THIS IS ABOUT THE INTEGRITY OF DEMOCRACY! too many people have sacrificed their lives for democracy to let a bunch of sel srving thugs steal it away from us!

[serbach]

28. So, it means nothing...

...that Bush won the MAJORITY of the popular vote? In 2000 the cry was, "Bush has no mandate because he lost the popular vote." Are you saying now that if Kerry had won Ohio that he would have a MANDATE while not having won a majority of the popular vote as Bush did?

I don't mean to be crass, here. I've just got to wonder about the pronouncement of "wins" that have been denied. This is too much irony for me; that is, proclaiming that an electoral college win in one case (2000) was NOT legitimate, but then claiming an (increasingly unlikely) electoral college win as legitimate in 2004 with a minority of the popular vote doesn't make your cause look good.

Heck, even Nixon bowed out gracefully in 1960.

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI

[Hamoth]

34. Gore technically won the electoral college in 2000

I have never screamed about the popular vote as I had already known about how our system worked. I raised an eyebrow ath te popular vote.

I grew RED FACED MAD when I read bush v gore, betrayal of america, and later that Gore would have won Florida in a hand recount. That hte will of the people was to select gore for an electoral win. The popular vote thing was always a grouse.

[serbach]

35. Sigh...

...Are you referring to this article?: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/112101a.html

What I got out of it was that the judge "...might well have expanded the recount to include those 'overvotes.' " Is that what you're referring to "technically" Gore won?

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI

[FogerRox]

20. MSM protests @ your local TV Station and in NYC

http://www.51capitalmarch.com/

Details:
http://www.51capitalmarch.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=New_Jersey



[e-mail]

[zann725]

22. The Arnebeck suits & litigation; let's help him out so this doesn't fade

and see if there are any more 'chinks' in the Bushco armor...i.e., Kerik or 9/11 Inside Job scandal. The true 'ugliness' and corruptness of the Admin. needs to be clarified.

History Channel ran a program last night on how Nazi SS officers were brought to U.S. after WWII, and used as Intelligence officers in CIA. The Bushco ties to WWII Nazi's needs explored.

No way middle, Red State America would accept either an "inside job" 9/11, or a Bushco/Nazi tie. Maybe those 527 ads need to be resurrected?

[Charon]

33. The Arnebeck suites & litigation

A lot of folks spent considerable amounts of band width, stressing the MIHOP/LIHOP aspect of 9/11 and Bush ties to the Nazi's. Didnt work then, probably would not work now. Besides, bringing former SS & other Nazi regime Germans to this country was done during the Truman administration.

[suston96]

23. Let's focus on WINNING in 2006 and 2008.

Fuggedabout it!

You, we will not win then, nor ever again, and here is why.

The electoral system has major gaps in it because the US Constitution, state Constitutions, federal and state election laws ALL have major gaps in them.

The all DON'T have one thing in common: how to avoid and remedy stolen elections.

Yes, our revered and honored US Constitution doesn't even have an expressed Right to Vote in it.

What can be done about all that? Easy, for starters, get Congress to start an amendment to the Constitution to add the Right to Vote. Already done. Jesse Jackson Jr. already has done this.

Now get the required 2/3s of the Republican House and 2/3s of the Republican Senate to pass the amendment....

Uh, like I said: fuggedabout it.

Seriously? Until the "times, places, and manner of elections" is taken away from the states AND there is a simplified, non-machine based federal election system these elections will continue to be stolen!

Uh, oh: "times, places, and manner of elections" is in the federal Constitution?

Amend that? Fuggedabout it!

[FogerRox]

24. Yeah Right--NOT --Ive hit the streets and will continue

[e-mail]

NYC CBS is first then NBC then ABC

[serbach]

26. Try Cokie Roberts first

The whole voting machine fraud thing is just too complex an issue. The fact that Bush garnered a MAJORITY of the popular vote regardless of the final outcome in Ohio is good enough for most people. Heck, even Kerry's own pollster, Mark Mellman, predicted a Bush win on the day of or the day before the election...and he called it to within about 1/5 of a percentage point.

More to the point is Michael Moore. On Sunday Roberts appeared on Chris Matthew's show and said this:

"I think Michael Moore actually had a very major impact - a negative impact - on the Democratic Party. I think he exemplified all of the things that people hate about Democrats. And the fact that he was - it was a hate-America-first campaign and that hurts the Democrats every time." Roberts also said that Moore's "physical appearance did not help."

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI

[marions ghost]

29. Best laugh I've had today ... Cokie on Moore LOL

Cokie Roberts' appearance in any form does not help.

Anyway Moore is more Populist than Democrat. Nobody sees him as tied to the Dems. He's done very well on the margins and any attempts to further marginalize him are laughable.

Moore exemplifies a lot of the things I admire about many Progressives and Dems and Populists in general. They are more concerned with substance than image. They are more real. They care about what really matters.

Cokie's quote--
"The things people hate about Democrats"--who are "people"???
Strong word --"hate"--THIS REALLY means
"The things the conservative minority hates about Democrats"

Over 52 million voted Democrat, warts and all....and if Kerry had "won", they would not have minded MM's help.

[serbach]

36. She may not 'help'...

...but I don't think that you can argue that she's pro-Republican. I simply think that the things she said reflect what a lot of people, Dems as well as Repugs, think of Moore.

When you say that "nobody sees him as tied to the Dems," I have trouble giving you any credence. He appeared at the Democrat National Convention. He sat with ex-President Carter, for Pete's sake! He attended the big Democrat fund raising events. How can he NOT be identified with the Dems?

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI

[libertypirate]

27. we should focus on defining a clear, detailed, in lay terms

Until we have a message, we are dispensing facts by the truckload. No one will understand those facts unless they are organized...

Any Thoughts?


BTW the media blaster is a great start!

[demo dutch]

30. 10 hour waits and not enough machines that's where the

fraud happend, and that's why Conyers is doing the hearings!

[bmoney07]

32. it may be up to Conyers and a Senator(s)

and I'll hold my breath for the Ohio Supreme Court ruling.


Holding