If Bush was told he was going to lose...

[WI_DEM]

Ok, I know there are major problems with electronic voting machines which must be fixed and I think people who keep bringing this up are doing a great service to our country.

But, as for Bush stealing the election through those machines, I'm not so sure. Almost every report of that election says that Rove told Bush that he was going to lose the election based on the exit polls. And that Bush and the white house were noticeably downcast during the day of the election believing this was true. Now if this is the case and they rigged the voting machines to produce a Bush victory--why would he be told he was going to lose?

That has always bothered me.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

1. To keep him f/being taken down if people ever found out about

it. (there's a legal term for it ...but I can't remember it). Maybe plausible deniability?

I think it was actually Karen Hughes who told him he would lose. Rove was too busy with his computers and telephone calls, as the BBC reported.

[SueZhope]

5. YES..true

To protect the KING.....if he does not know he can stay out of jail

[Hey Nineteen]

7. Got a link to that BBC info?

I'd like to read it! Thanks

[rockedthevoteinMA]

Yup

"By the time election night came around, Mr Rove was in the White House, where, unusually for a political adviser, he has an office.

He set up computers in the Old Family Dining Room and started tabulating results. He had set up a massive network of contacts, not just in state capitals, but individual districts and precincts to monitor turnout and support.


Mr Rove may spin the news, but the media still wants to hear him
Early exit polls quoted by media seemed to give Mr Kerry the edge, but colleagues said Mr Rove indicated right away that they did not tally with his information.

He used his own data to put Ohio and Florida in the Bush column - bringing cheers from the president and his family when he went into the Roosevelt Room and told them."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3987237.stm

[Hey Nineteen]

22. Awesome. Thanks! n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

41. I remember this immediately preceeded

Bush's little freakshow appearance where he invited the media in to watch him gloat. At the time, I thought it was wishful thinking, since exit polls were pretty consistently reporting Kerry w/ about 60% of the votes in Ohio. I was so infuriated by Smirky, I switched off the television and went to bed. Boy was I surprised the next morning, for about two seconds! I took me less than 24 hours to start trying to get a look at some of the numbers.

[helderheid]

43. "The exit polls show you are losing"

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/prez.key/index.html

[zann725]

46. Oh, he knows! No doubt about it. Look at that Satanic grin!

n/t

[jsascj]

59. Of course he does...

He's the Antichrist

[bush_is_wacko]

51. This still has the power to make me want to throw something at my tv set

and it isn't even on right now!

[zann725]

45. Ooo, the subtext, and phrasing of this is amazing!

Thank you, BBC! They're tipping their hand that they KNOW went down.
Yes!

[no safe haven]

50. Here's more "subtle" hints from the Sydney Morning Herald

Hours before it was clear that US President George W Bush had won the election, Karl Rove told his boss to rest easy.

Working from a bank of computers on the first-floor of the White House, Bush's political guru absorbed the turnout numbers, checked his target projections in swing states and concluded that the bitterly contested race was over.

In first few hours of counting, John Kerry still seemed to be in the game and the political world held its breath.
But Rove told Bush that the crucial state of Ohio was in the bag and that he would be re-elected.

"Karl was calling states long before the networks did," a Bush confidant said. "His grasp of reality was totally uncanny."

Bush spoke to Rove by phone every 10 minutes all night long and later showered praise on the political junkie.

<snip>
http://smh.com.au/news/US-Elections/Bushs-architect-will-be-last-man-out-the-door/2004/11/08/1099781301323.html

Rove had an uncanny grasp of reality? Yeah, sure!

[Garbo 2004]

60. My grasp of the reality of what I already know is in my savings account

because I put it there is "totally uncanny" too. I must be a financial wizard. LOL

[hlthe2b]

11. yes, it was karen hughes.. I agree with you totally.plausible deniability

[bush_is_wacko]

42. It was Hughes, I had forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder. n/t

[NV Whino]

2. To keep him from smirking

and ruining the game. You know he couldn't have controlled his smirk if Kkkarl had told him he was going to win. But, you might look at Kkkarl's actions. He had a silly smirk on his face and was going around handing out candy.

[Laelth]

3. I think it was Karen Hughes who told him.

Perhaps she wasn't in the election fraud loop?

:shrug:

-Laelth

[farmbo]

56. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Hughes---and only Hughes--- told Bush he was going to loose based on exit polling.

Rove, on the other hand, started making phone calls to Ohio.

BTW...anyone who knows anything about Texas vote rigging knows you do not rig an election you're going to win. The rigging gets arranged aroung 4:00 PM, when calls are made to trigger existing plans to "find more votes".

See eg: LBJ's 1948 Senate race.

[LisaM]

4. What about if the mischief was just allowed to proceed

without any coordination? This is what I think happened. Every place they could depress turnout, disenfranchise voters, flip a few votes in a machine, etc., they did. That way you get a skewed result but no traceable, systematic evidence of fraud.

[MarkusQ]

13. You can rig a close election in surprisingly subtle ways...

For instance, just assigning the "slower" poll workers to enemy precincts might be enough in a battleground state (the slower the poll workers, the fewer people who actually get to vote for the enemy).

What was done here was much more blatant, but quite possibly not "centrally coordinated"; the same sort of thing you see in disreputable sales organizations where sales people are rewarded for "getting results" and "everybody knows" that there isn't much oversight w. regard to ethics. There may not be a central "plan to screw the customers" but the results are the same as if there were.

--MarkusQ

[hootinholler]

29. Clearly we can demonstrate the culture...

that leads to this behavior. Look at the witness list for HAVA for cryin out loud.

I do believe that this was a cultural action. I think the people fostering that culture could be prosecuted. I *know* I want them to be.

-Hoot

[Higans]

37. The systemic evidence of fraud is that there is no one system.

and no evidence that votes were even counted.

[neweurope]

6. To keep him from dumbly letting others know.

Like he saw the movie about the plane hitting the first tower... Rove makes a mistake only once.

[MarkusQ]

15. What movie? I missed that one. (n/t)

[neweurope]

23. I put it wrong - he said he saw on TV how the plane hit the first tower

but that was never shown, or did I misunderstand something?

[zann725]

47. No, Shrub knew. Sorry.

Come on, Jeb was "in on it" in Florida in 2000, and of course Shrub knew. You saw that footage in the plane with his brother (from "Farenheit").

Shrub also knew what it was going to take to win Ohio in 2004, and he saw that Blackwell was "in place." He knew. Kkkarl Rove's "genius" is getting a bit too glossed over to be entirely real.

Shrub knew about the Election 'fix'...just like he "knew" AND approved of the torture in Abu Gharib...the WRITTEN proof of which just surfaced today, courtesy of the ACLU.

Shrub may not be as verbally adroit as most, and he may not be as scholarly as Kerry, but Shrub is ruthlessly shrewd. We should NOT under-estimate what he controls and knows.

[KansDem]

8. Good questioin, but did Rove really tell him this?

I had heard it was Karen Hughes.

But this story seems to cast doubt on your thesis:

This article is sure to raise hackles...

Bush's architect 'will be last man out the door'
November 8, 2004 - 1:28PM
http://tinyurl.com/6d4u5

In first few hours of counting, John Kerry still seemed to be in the game and the political world held its breath.

But Rove told Bush that the crucial state of Ohio was in the bag and that he would be re-elected.

"Karl was calling states long before the networks did," a Bush confidant said. "His grasp of reality was totally uncanny."

Evidently more questions are being raised like by Keith Olbermann

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240


http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/cgi/dr/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=928

[rjbny62]

57. which "reality" did he grasp?

remember when another * confidant said that they are creating new realities, isn't it a bit ironic that they used the term "reality"?

[KansDem]

62. Man, isn't that the truth!

Remember when BushCo announced the creation of their Office of Special Plans? How this office would "interpret" the information given by the intelligence agencies? Then BushCo announced it would end this operation, but since the Office was in the business of lying, are we to believe them? A lot like saying "I lie all the time." What do we believe?

But you're right, ever since BushCo grabbed power, this country has been operating on a layer of lies, so much so that I don't know what to believe any more.

[StatGirl]

9. We don't know that he was actually told that

Where did all these media reports get this story from in the first place? From Rove and Hughes, of course. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that this is just another bit of disinformation.

[CrispyQ]

10. Oh, Rove knew. He knew the fix was in.

Buth they knew the Dim-son couldn't keep his pie-hole shut if they told him about it. Remember that scene in F 9/11 where he is on the plane & says, oh so arrogantly & cockily, "Oh, we'll win Florida." So they kept him in the dark. He thought he was going to lose (I believe he DID lose), but Rove knew the fix was in. You bet he did.

[buddysmellgood]

12. And who told us he was told he was going to lose? I don't see how

Dubya's worrying about whether the theft of the election would work proves the theft did not occur. All of the evidence is to the contrary.

[lutherj]

14. They can only rig the election provided it's close. If the margin was

too big, it would outweigh the effect of the rigged machines. So it wasn't necessarily in the bag.

[Hamoth]

16. Two words: Plausible Deniability -NT

[Malva Zebrina]

17. It bothered me also

and I came to the conclusion it was just another act from Bush the very poor actor, knowing that no matter what the outcome, the election was rigged.

[Tennessee Gal]

18. Perhaps

they held out hope that they could pull it out legitimately right up until election night. Then, oops, was not to be. So, OMG, what to do?! Put the plan into action! Spread the rumor that the exit polls were wrong! The MSM doesn't care enough to check the facts or search for the truth. Yes, indeed, the exit polls are wrong! BUSH is WINNING! Damn straight! Bush wins both Florida and Ohio! Bush wins four more years. Those that doubt that are conspiracy theorists and loonies!

Yes, works every time.

[Niche]

19. Sent out media blast with Newsweeks article about...

the predicted win of Kerry that day (was posted on another thread earlier). Just to ask them what they thought "this article means and is this true?" Just a little reminder that the journalists with * predicted the loss....

[elehhhhna]

20. Cheney told US the week before 11/2 what the margins would be.

[madison2000]

21. I heard Bush was told he would lose early in the evening Nov2

by Karen Hughes.

Doubtless everyone who knows Rove knew that some kind of shenanigans were going on, but probably no details. I mean, how could they have known whether they were cheating enough to win the election? They couldn't be too obvious, too different from the polls. It was a close race. And even in states where some rigging went on, they may not have won. Take Wisconsin, where Kerry's win was by 15000 votes. It was a heavy turnout in the cities, and the lead for Kerry should have been more.

They could only hope they cheated just enough to win and be plausible, and that's exactly what happened.

[Hey Nineteen]

24. Does W even know about fraud?

It occurs to me, after reading the articles from BBC and Newsweek and this thread - Bush never knew what was going on. Rove did the scheming and knew full well that Bush was too slow to handle it right. Plus telling him would destroy Bush's plausible deniability.

Actually, if I'm right, Bush never total, real deniability. No clue.

But he still lost. :dunce:

[flordehinojos]

25. But when POPPY GOT OFF THE PLANE and told Rove that he was disheartened

due to EXIT POLLS RESULTS, ROVE TOLD POPPY NOT TO NOT WORRY,THAT THE WH INTERNAL POLLS WERE SHOWING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I heard POPPY say that on some interview not long after the elections.

[Generator]

33. Whitehouse internal polls!

Oh fishy slam dunk.

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. Rove never said it, Karen Hughes did. Rove KNEW better!

As did Cheney and likely the fool Chimperor!

[McCamy Taylor]

28. Also, most of the Bush family knew that something was up...

...you could see the panic in their eyes as they stared into the camera with their wierd Stepford Wive smiles plastered across their faces in that election evening photo op which Rove arranged to announce to the world that the Bush family was a family of WINNERS. Someone needs to run that scene in slow motion focusing on each person's face. I'll bet you would find some interesting twicthes and tics, and some body language at odds with the overt message. The scene creeped me out.

[flordehinojos]

52. Rove didn't say it publicly. But, according to Poppy that is what Rove

told him when POPPY got off the plane and expressed his concern to Rove...at least, that is what I heard POPPY say in an interview on the television, although, I forget who was doing the interviewing.

[McCamy Taylor]

27. Karen Hughes told him and then left town, she wanted to make sure...

...that everyone knew that she was not part of Karl Rove's fix when Votergate erupted as a scandal. She is one smart cookie.

The timing of her exodus from DC was wierd to say the least. If she really thought W had lost, end of story, she would have stayed to console him, she being one of the mother figures he likes to surround himself with. But she made a point of telling him that the exit polls showed that he had lost, she made sure that everyone knew that she had told him that he had lost, and then she left DC in advance of the surprise which she probably suspected Karl Rove was going to pull out of his computer command central.

I wonder what kind of relationship Rove and Hughes have and, if questioned under oath, whether she would lie to protect Rove. I kind of doubt that she would commit perjury to protect Rove, bet she would to protect W.

[wrate]

30. What an interesting point of view. I agree completely. Karen knew that

by stating the loss to * she would be risking her reputation. I mean, you don't tell your boss he has lost unless you are 100% certain, much less let the rest of the world know about this unfortunate conversation. I have, since finding out about this conversation, wondered what it really meant.

[KittyWampus]

35. Really, What An Interesting And Ultimately Plausible Explanation

Karen and Karl... at loggerheads.

With Karen wanting to go one route and Karl taking the very lowest road possible?

[lonestarnot]

31. Duh... He had to be informed so he would know what was going down in order

to stand back from a bust

[genieroze]

32. Probable Deniability. eom

[TruthIsAll]

34. Because they want you to believe that they expected to lose...

If you believe that, they have fooled you as they have fooled millions.

When will you learn to not believe anything out of the WH?

How many lies will it take for it to sink in?

[bywho4who]

36. Well

Auto-alibi:shrug:

[mopinko]

38. i think she said

you are going to lose. do you want uncle karl to fix it? that is the only way you will win.

[bush_is_wacko]

39. Not so...

Just before I switched off for the night * allowed reporters in the White House to broadcast a little cocky bit of him and "the family" sitting around watching the election results and * said he was "confident" he would win the election. Smirky was truly the most accurate name for him on that occassion I have ever heard. He was positively beaming!

BTW, gotta love that little dog of *'s. Despite the fact that * tried to get him on his lap about 20 times during that little freakshow, the dog STILL won't go anywhere near him! Dogs KNOW!

Corrected typos.

[helderheid]

40. Bush was told and here is his response according to CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/prez.key/index.html

[helderheid]

44. http://scoop.co.nz/mason/features/?s=usacoup

http://scoop.co.nz/mason/features/?s=usacoup

[Ellipsis]

48. Howdy neighbor! ...they've had four years to write the scene.

saying hi to another "Sconi" (wisc.)

k

[txindy]

49. That's just the story they told the media to explain the early polls

And it was Karen Hughes who told Junior he was going to lose. In a landslide, no less. Which he did.

[suziedemocrat]

53. My Theory

I think they thought maybe they could "fix" a very close election.  I think they had things in the works - but they were obviously untested - and I don't think it could have been that well organized, for obvious reasons.  The exit polls showed a clear Kerry win.  I think on election day they saw the polls so decisively for Kerry and figured it was way beyond what they could "fix".   I think they were as surprised as anyone that it worked so well.   I also don't know if George Bush was necessarily in on the "fix". I think Rove and maybe a few others (like Chenny?) put some ideas out to try - and they were surprised it went so well.

This may sound crazy - but I don't think so.  I am a computer programmer and this is a major part of life for me.  We test the shit out of stuff - but there is always uncertainty when we put stuff into production that it will actually work the way we want it to.  Many problems blow up when stuff is first tried in a real life production environment.  No matter how much testing you do.  I don't see how they could test a little "nudge" to help Bush win the election.   There really couldn't be a "dress rehearsal".  I don't think they knew if it would actually work.  I also don't think they did ONE thing.  They probably tried voter suppression, changing data, a number of things on a necessarily small scale.  Also - it could not have been well documented or coordinated.   I think it might have been somewhat of a fluke that it went as well for them as it did and Bush won.

[KaliTracy]

54. if there was something going on, * probably wasn't in the "know"

after all -- he's not in the know about a lot of things...

puppet...puppet...puppet

[tommcintyre]

55. Even if fraud is proven, Bush can't be Impeached unless, proven he knew

[jsascj]

58. I thought that Karen Hughes told him that he was going to lose.

She obviously was not in on Rove's plan.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

61. I disagree that fraud was unorganized. There's only one

way Rove could have told * he was going to defy exit polls with the "actual" results, and that's if you know that no matter what the other guy gets, you're going to get a little bit more. That takes a centralized scheme of some sort, at least in Ohio and Florida.

[unpossibles]

64. I don't know....

I think the Shrub is dumb enough to believe he won when Rove told him he did. he has not let logic, intelligence, or facts stand in his way before, so why start now?

[bitchkitty]

63. Just remember, the little anecdote about

Karen Hughes sitting down and telling chimpie he was going to lose was relayed to us by the MSM, which immediately makes it suspect.

[demo dutch]

65. It was Karen Hughes, but they have to make it look

plausible! I think it's not orchestrated at the top. I actually think they operate like cells that work independently with one common goal. Compare it to El Qaeeda

[emcguffie]

66. I read the opposite

I keep seeing that it was Karen Hughes who "sat W down" to tell him he was going to lose, and that Rove said, no, according to MY information, you are going to win. Not to worry!

[fooj]

67. he knew all along

just like he knew in 2000-sitting there all smug and calm...remember he said (after Florida was given to Gore) that he KNEW he had won Florida...How did HE know when no one else did? Hmmmmmmm.........