new Village Voice article: The Case of the Ohio Recount - A Whodunit

[VTGold]

Haven't read it yet but looks long and thorough:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0451/perlstein.php

[burythehatchet]

1. snip

Meanwhile there have been the emotional hearings, led by ranking House Judiciary Committee member John Conyers, in which Ohio secretary of state and Bush-Cheney campaign co-chair Ken Blackwell was raked over the coals in absentia for answers to 36 questions about specific Election Day irregularities that Conyers posed to him in a now famous December 2 letter. The 36 questions are masticated endlessly in forums on democraticunderground.com—new outrages added each day, thousands of embittered idealists consuming the better part of their time in search of that elusive needle-in-haystack data point that will prove outright theft of the election. One lawyer, Cliff Arnebeck, even thinks he's found it, and has filed suit with the aim of kicking George W. Bush out of office.

[New Earth]

2. hmm

i wonder so many references to DU lately?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

4. Do we know what "needle in a haystack" he refers to here?

"One lawyer, Cliff Arnebeck, even thinks he's found it, and has filed suit with the aim of kicking George W. Bush out of office."

[merh]

21. Dissident, "embittered idealists", how many differetnt labels can

we wear! :freak:

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me! :silly:

[autorank]

40. Murdock owns The Voice...but it's "hands off" (hahahaha)

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burythehatchet]

6. yeah. Happens to be one of the better weeklies in the US

They've got some real hang-ups about some people but in general it is top-shelf investigative reporting.

[freedom_to_read]

5. this a MUST read

"There is a way, though it will take some heavy lifting—a lot of heavy lifting. Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. has pointed out that Congress doesn't even have the power to establish a nationally uniform system of voting—everything in the Constitution concerning presidential elections is mediated through the states, which is why every state (and within every state, every county) runs elections its own way. He's proposed a constitutional amendment to right the wrong. Passing it is a daunting prospect, no doubt. But as strategy, it also has the makings of brilliance. Let the Republicans try to fight it. Put them on record as against the right to vote. Let them defend the process as it exists—where a figure like Blackwell can simultaneously be the captain of one of the teams and the game's chief referee.

Then Americans will know where the Republicans stand.

Standing behind Jackson's constitutional amendment would be a better application of progressive energies than the frenzied attempt every fourth December to chase down the horses after the barn door is closed."

I couldn't agree more.

[gennifer6]

10. WONDERFUL idea....

We need to propose a law, or Constitutional amendment if need be, to have homogeneous voting procedures nationwide...Repunklicans will have to eat it or look anti-democratic.

[Hamoth]

11. There are easy republican counters to that

The author has the strategic awareness of one of the above mentioned barn horses.

We HAVE the R's on the record, over and over again, against the right to vote. WTF do people think bush V. gore, or the current washington troubles, are all about? Over and over, R's supress votes publicly.

Over and over they spin it.

Thye will continue to do so.

The writer should wake up a little. This isn't 2000. The congressional bills to institute paper trails that received bipartisan support were jsut sent to comittee. New rove strategy: Open support the bill, have frist send it to committee on a technicality. The same will happen of Jackson's amendment if we don't build some better support with the public.

[freedom_to_read]

15. well then we need to start getting public support

because i can tell you that the Arnebeck suit and even Conyers hearings are not getting it. they're just getting spun as conspiracy theories, s2s.

anyways, whether or not you agree with this idea, he's right about one thing: we need to develop a long term strategy to counter election fraud.

[Hamoth]

19. We can get public support by doing this:

Supporting the black voters who were disenfrachised and bringing that to the forefront of this issue. This is about racism as much as anything else. I think it is getting close for time that black folks take to the streets.

Yall with me?

[freedom_to_read]

20. yes

The unfair voting conditions need to be brought to the forefront. Blackwell needs to answer for that, first and foremost.

[Hamoth]

22. It's much bigger than blackwell

Jsut because we have scrutinized ohio and been able to from there pluck up the silenced plight of those who were held down for their skin color, doesn't mean that racism and disenfranchisement only applied to ohio, or that this is merely an "unfair condition".

This is some selma shit. IT needs to be seen for what it is. We have far too long relegated the struggle for civil rights and the equity of minority persons to historical perspectives rather than accept and face the ongoing reality. Racism is alive and well. The 1996 promise by the GOP to build a bridge to the past has been realized. In 2000 shades of KKK rallies came over that bridge screaming "let us in". When what they meant was "keep THEIR KIND out".

It's time to make this about civil rights and equal rights for blacks. Seperate and differing elections systems, and no guranteed right to vote is hitting black folks more than anyone else. Jsut as seperate but equal did in the 60's, so does it again now.

Our election system is a hold out of hte seperate but equal days. This is clear and obvious. We only notice now because we need blacks to help us win, but the fact is that they have been there in an unequal place all along. IT's nationwide and it's blatant white supremecy that keeps this system in place.

I would rather remind amreica where the GOP stands on that issue.

[kk897]

25. and I think in the end that's what Perlstein believes

He's worried that "our" efforts will take the spotlight away from the central fact that it's a civil rights issue, as a dKos diarist wrote about and as was discussed in a thread not long ago (not very much discussed, I guess...and I can't remember her name).

I worry about it, too.

[lawladyprof]

30. It might have been moi--she said modestly

And the thread got to be quite long but split between e-voting fraud faction and the civil rights faction. In the end <sigh>, I just didn't know anyone to contact although I sent copies of my posts to Olbermann and Arnebeck and anyone I could think of but didn't/don't know anyone with contacts to actually do anything with it.

[kk897]

31. I'm sorry I forgot... my head's full of, well, nothing, evidently

Was it the one discussing "folks just don't get it"? That was such a powerful post over at dKos... is that you? Or did you start the thread that was something like "please read this"? And what was the pen name of the woman who wrote the dKos diary? I'm sooooo stupid. I should've bookmarked it, but I was like, well I posted to it so the thread will still be there on the "my posts" page. Yeah, but only for 24 hours! Duh!

[lawladyprof]

35. Nah, can't take credit for either of those

I posted at length about the application of Fourteenth Amendment equal protection law (jurisprudence) to the Ohio recount. I argued that inequalities in voter machine allocation was a civil rights violation and all you needed was adverse impact (shown through statistics) and thus did not need to prove intent to discriminate (disparate treatment). I proposed the remedy of allowing that voters in precincts that had too few machines alloted to them (these would be minority precincts only because that is how equal protection litigation works best) and who were willing to sign an affidavit that they had been in line on election day but left because of delays/lines be allowed to cast a "late ballot." I don't have the resources/contacts to be able to estimate what would have happened if such a lawsuit had been filed, i.e., an estimate of how many potential new votes such a remedy (if the lawsuit were successful) would have yielded, but I'm willing to bet 90% would have been Kerry votes.

BTW, if I want to keep an thread in my "My Posts," I reply and keep typing "Kick" in the subject line and "N/T" in the message box everyday.

[KittyWampus]

13. Meaningful Election Reform Is The Ultimate Wedge Issue

Said it before and I'll say it again.

[freedom_to_read]

16. can you explain, who's being wedged?

are you saying that election reform will drive a wedge between the general public and the republican power brokers?

[Hamoth]

18. Assuming the media would cover it.

I said that before too.

We have been TRYING since 2000 to get meaningful reform. Unless the media takes it up and picks up some ordered points from our side, then it will continue to rot as a fringe issue beyond the grasp of mainstream America.

They have an effective spin machine in place that takes many advantages of their official positions in government to dictate the framing of these issues. Election reform risks being dismissed as "partisan smears from the nazi left", a flaky confection all to quickly gobbled up since 2000 and in a public unchanged since then it will continue to be so easily fed lies.

We need to make this about more than just election reform, meaningful as all election reofrms are or otherwise. This is about the ongoing oppression of blacks. Folks don't get it, as they say.

[kk897]

26. We don't need to *make* it about that...

Hamoth wrote:

We need to make this about more than just election reform, meaningful as all election reofrms are or otherwise. This is about the ongoing oppression of blacks.

We don't need to make it about civil rights...it IS about civil rights.

I hope we can throw the spotlight on it as much as it deserves.

[OKthatsIT]

43. SOoooo...we have 2 yrs to do the impossible?

It's over for democracy if we can't make the vote legit. The election will be rigged again and the last 5 Dem Senators will be out. No doubt more Dem US Reps will be ousted. The rest will be reduced to buttkissing...

The 'cases' are important to follow through. The evidence and
witnesses will be put on the record, with more coming everyday. The whistleblowers will continue to step forward simly because Diebold and ES&S, Triad ARE crooked. They employ thousands of people and you've gotta believe some of those folks are decent citizens who cant tolerate the same thing we cant tolerate.

I think we're doing exactly what we need to do. We will see Senators contest the election on Jan 6th. Lets see how these events will come together.

[johnaries]

7. I like this part:

~snip~
Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. has pointed out that Congress doesn't even have the power to establish a nationally uniform system of voting—everything in the Constitution concerning presidential elections is mediated through the states, which is why every state (and within every state, every county) runs elections its own way. He's proposed a constitutional amendment to right the wrong. Passing it is a daunting prospect, no doubt. But as strategy, it also has the makings of brilliance. Let the Republicans try to fight it. Put them on record as against the right to vote. Let them defend the process as it exists—where a figure like Blackwell can simultaneously be the captain of one of the teams and the game's chief referee.

Then Americans will know where the Republicans stand.

[EMunster]

8. he's pretty much making fun of everyone on this side of story...

[SueZhope]

12. yes

I think the author is giving us the old
:tinfoilhat: treatment

Why is this good? He makes Arenbeck out to be a wacko

[Vinnie From Indy]

38. I agree n/t

[saracat]

9. This is NOT good for us.

What makes the author think there will be a legit election in 2006?

[freedom_to_read]

17. i think he has good points

(1) why are we letting the Ohio debacle turn us against each other. i see a lot people on this board going at each others' throats over this.

(2) why aren't we talking about a long-term strategy for defeating the right wing, one that includes election reform as a central plank?

[merh]

23. Been there, done that!

What do you think happened after 2000? Repuths kill any real efforts (or pass a bill that a commission study it, then the commission is funded and the studies are funded and nothing comes of the studies) or don't vote to provide the necessary funding!

We need to deal with today, today.

[demo dutch]

14. I think the story has a point! We do need to change the

system once and for all! Let's face it no matter who the winner is, the election system is this country is a total joke!

[TruthIsAll]

34. We need to change the system? Yes, but first expose the fraud.

And fight like hell to install Kerry in the WH. Now.

[theboss]

24. Good article

It's similar to what I posted earlier in that we are going half-cocked in pursuit of "proof" that Bush stole this election without addressing the real and provable problems. The constitutional amendment idea is intriguing.

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. Perlstein's Advice is BS

The article doesn't address even a fraction of the irregularities that have been documented. His not so subtle slam of DU and the inspiring debate taking place here is bogus. He strikes me as another hand wringing liberal more concerned with Democrats being "embarrassed" than confronting the fraud issues related to the last election. He mentions in his article that there were indeed long lines, voter roll chicanery and a host of other illegal and unAmerican activities inflicted by the Repugs on the Democrats. What is his solution? He advises that the left should get behind efforts to prevent the same thing happening in '06. Does his advice remind anyone of Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football?

Perlstein's advice to back away from challenging the theft of the election in Ohio and elsewhere is the mind set that causes Democrats to keep getting kicked in the balls at every turn. We have no shortage of folks on the left, like Perlstein, that keep advising us all to bring knives to gunfights. Perlstein does make one prescient point about the future of America. He states that if the Democrats don't pursue voting reform we are doomed to lose power locally as we have nationally. I agree with that, but I think his milquetoast attitude and hand wringing over Democrats being embarrassed will assure rather than prevent that from happening.

edit: correction of word order

[stillcool]

28. One battle at a time....

There will be no election or any other significant reforms other than those repubs want, until those that are elected serve. We have NO voice, regardless of race. If this fight is not faught now, it may as well be never...there will be nothing left worth fighting for.

[chorti]

29. somewhat right message, wrong target

It seems that Perlstein has a somewhat right message but should be talking to the DNC and some of the voting groups who seemed to have been totally unprepared. If we at DU and many hundreds of thousands of others are working at this so hard, it is primarily because the Demo establishment is missing in action.

These are some of the questions that the Village Voice should be asking:

1. Why was there no preparation for an extensive county-by-county and precinct-by-precinct data analysis team by the DNC and the well-monied voting groups?

2. Why were so few people/organizations paying attention to the distribution of voting machines before November 2?

3. Why has the Ohio Democratic Party not mandated to each county DEM organization that they must fight like H&LL to get every vote hand counted?

This is not the time to begin to systematically analyze the whole process and come up with a thoughtful, systemic proposal for reform of the voting process, part of which would be the JJJr proposal. I'm not sure if that time will come later ... I hope it will. But today, this is the time - the last chance - to fight to keep * out of office.

[kk897]

32. give that poster a cee-gar!

Those really are the questions of the hour, aren't they? I don't know if anyone will be successful in restoring the office to the rightful elected official, but I do know that those questions had better be answered!

And, related to another post above, I'd like to say that I think (not "know") Perlstein isn't against the idea of investigating fraud so much as jumping out there with every little tidbit of info, and taking the focus off the civil rights issue.

[Vinnie From Indy]

37. I Agree and Disagree

I agree that it is astonishing that the state Democratic Party in Ohio, as well as other states, seems to have been caught off guard in regard to suppression taking place by means of ballot machine allocation. It appears that Rove's strategy was to distract the Democrats by publicly declaring prior to the election that there would be thousands of GOP goons challenging voters right to vote at the polls on election day when he really intended to suppress the vote by means of ballot machine allocation. Michael Moore and all the other tens of thousands of volunteers and the oft heard about Kerry lawyers working on election day were primarily interested in catching and stopping voter challenges and they didn't even see the voting machine punch coming. I might be wrong about whether the Democrats knew voting machine allocation would be as big a problem as it turned out to be. It doesn't really matter however because if they did know this was going to be a huge problem, it makes them look even more incompetent for not raising major hell in the national and local media.

I think that Perlstein's message about working for '06 and backing off on investigating all aspects this last election would be a monumental strategic mistake for a number of reasons regardless of his target audience. His advice is bad for the DNC leadership and it is bad for the grass roots.

Firstly, his entire argument is based on the faulty premise that the left in America has the ability now to deliver any message about issues concerning civil rights, suppression or disenfranchisement to the broad public through the mainstream media. We don't! I offer as proof of my point the past record of outrageous falsehoods, smears, lies, distractions, deceptions, and elective wars perpetrated by the BushCo. Administration that have never been fairly or honestly reported by the mainstream media. If we do not PRESS the vote fraud issue concerning the last election with all of our voices and all of our effort NOW, the mainstream media will slap us to the back of the bus AGAIN and any effort we make to change the way elections are run will be laughed at by the GOP in power.

Another reason Perlstein's advice is so horribly wrong is the fact that a recent Gallup (not that I like these guys) poll indicates that around 30% of Democrats believe that the 2004 election was fixed somehow. If that number is accurate, then there are undoubtedly a significant percentage of those 30% that might be compelled or enticed to support a third party if the Democrats lay down again as they did in Florida in 2000. There is also be a significant amount of Democratic voters that will conclude their vote hasn't mattered enough for the Democrats to fight for it the last two elections why should they keep coming out to vote at all. By refusing to fight hard NOW, the Democrats could further dilute their chances of winning at any time in the future. I believe that is a very real danger.

I will agree that most of the recommendations made by Perlstein in regard to fair voting are correct and extremely important to Democrats and all liberty loving Americans, but his advice to back off this issue even a little will actually prevent us from achieving any of the goals he laid out.

edit: removed word "may"

[LittleClarkie]

33. I've been confused about the Voices political position since I found this

http://villagevoice.com/issues/0408/schanberg.php

It's an article about the POW issue. Schanberg seems to be taking the position that there were indeed POW's left behind and that Kerry hid the evidence.

That sounds beyond crazy to me. I've only ever heard Right Wingnuts go there.

So which way does the Voice lean these days?

[robbedvoter]

39. At one time the Voice was owned by Murdoch. It's been mostly faux left

attacking Clinton non stop (for loony reasons no less - such as not pardoning some rapist) and sometimes right of Novak (it shares a columnist with the Moonie Times - Nat Hentoff. In 2000 Nat had a 2 page article entitled "Scalia was right"
They had been a bit more focused during this election (in fact the only election they even noticed), but one has to take any of their stuff with big grains of salt (Ridgeway tales liberties with the facts)
The only reliable thing in the Voice is the Horoscope.

[lonestarnot]

36. Divide and Conquer routine outed... still believe VOTE FRAUD...agree

we need to core issue the election reform through Constitutional amendment to have uniform election laws all states. Going to be tough, however believe programmers defaulting votes to bushitler, suppression of black voters, oppression of poor are issues that should be addressed NOW for NOV 2, 2004. JAN 6 STINK should be made at the White House! From there if America left, we should get behind Constitutional amendment.

[Melissa G]

41. The biggest issue is the lack of a free press and a public that demands it

Without a free press we have no democracy. Any party can and does get away with murder and more because there is no major media reporting/ watchdogging the incidents.
Current media wants more consolidation. Bush et al is giving it to them. All voter reforms being contemplated would lead to more Democratic victories. Consolidated media has every reason to keep Bush in and go with whitewashed voter reform.
This will not get better with time or the next election. The public must take to the streets in such protest a la Ukraine that change happens now!

[Vinnie From Indy]

42. Kick! n/t