My Opinion on Bev Harris & BBV (Warning: Harsh Language)

[IdaBriggs]

For those who do not know me, I was responsible for the New Hampshire voter study, and helped make the recount in New Hampshire possible. You can search in the archives for the blow by blow details of how it actually happened. I spoke with Bev Harris only a few times, as most of my contacts with her organization were through Andy Stephenson (who is no longer affiliated with her group). I have been out of the loop recently due to my father's health, so what I am about to share must be taken in that context.

Bev Harris seemed to be someone who cared about election fraud investigation. Her group was able to raise money for their FOIA requests by also mentioning the New Hampshire recount (despite the fact the only support they provided was participation in a press conference with Ralph Nader), which caused a great deal of problems for fund raising efforts to cover the cost of the recount in New Hampshire as people thought they had already "helped" by giving her group money instead of the Nader campaign. I do not believe the confusion generated by the tie-in between Black Box Voting and the New Hampshire recount was "on purpose" but more in the nature of a really chaotic time, with things changing on a minute by minute basis. In short, I do not think the confusion was intended as deception.

As I said, BBV contributed ZERO SUPPORT to efforts to investigate fraud in New Hampshire, despite repeated requests for someone from their organization to help. At one point, it looked like we were going to have someone there to analyze the data they had requested with their FOIA request, but that person never showed up for reasons which have NEVER been explained; to the best of my knowledge, the data has not been collected at this point, or analyzed for any patterns of error. I am NOT happy about this.

In the early weeks following the election, Bev and her crew were active in Florida. A public posting on original signed machine tapes being found in a trash bag was made by Bev Harris and supported by testimony from Andy Stephenson, who was also a witness to the events which were all caught on video tape (per the public posting). If true, this was evidence of criminal conduct, and would have provided the excuse required for the Kerry team to unleash their resources. I personally had several conversations with skeptical people who were within one or two degrees of separation from the top people on the Kerry team who bluntly stated they needed to see the purported evidence for support to be forthcoming. Keith Olbermann, one of the few respected journalists covering the election fraud investigation, also had his producers request more information on the topic from the BBV team, to no avail.

To date, this "evidence" of criminal conduct has not been made available to the public despite repeated requests by myself and numerous other respected members of the voter fraud investigation community. The opportunity that was lost because of this can not be calculated, and the damage to our democracy as a result is intolerable. And yes, there are Kinkos in Florida, as well as people who can easily be found who can copy videotape, and anyone who wants to pretend the "Votergate" people wouldn't have provided it if some pressure from BBV was applied is working hard at playing dumb; I'm not interested in arguing the point.

BBV is not equipped to prosecute criminal activity; that is not within the scope of their charter, nor should anyone expect them to do so. If BBV actually has evidence of the kind they PUBLICLY claimed, at this point I believe THEY should be prosecuted for conspiracy after the fact for covering it up and/or not revealing it. (Did I mention I'm a little pissed off? I've watched the recount deadline for state after state pass by, with little that could be done because of a lack of financial and human resources -- problems which could have been easily remedied if one person had displayed better judgment -- and I'm not talking Kerry!)

I believe Bev Harris had good intentions; unfortunately, perhaps due to exhaustion, she has displayed some amazingly BAD judgment. For example, at one point volunteers from Common Cause were recruited to collect the FOIA requests from each of the counties in Florida (as opposed to three people driving to each one of them). Only one detail had to be worked out -- getting them the checks so they could pick stuff up. (Training and documentation had already been taken care of by another person.) Ms. Harris did not have time to address the funding issue, but she did have "time" to personally drive around the state of Florida for days instead. In my not-so-humble educated opinion, setting her and her team up in one place, and bringing the information to be analyzed to her while using the opportunity to train more people in the analysis skills (on what to look for) would have been a better use of her time; unfortunately, Ms. Harris did not agree, and another opportunity was lost.

It takes a lot of work to alienate as many people as BBV has done, but Bev Harris has displayed a remarkable skill when it comes to doing so. The public "incident" with Andy Stephenson consumed valuable time, and drained energy from an important ongoing investigation, while the public debacle with Keith Olbermann was so unnecessary as to be ridiculous. To say that Ms. Harris is lacking in common sense people skills would be an understatement.

Furthermore, instead of having investigations occur in fifty states (which her FOIA requests would have created: volunteers were mobilized to assist with it, and funding for which was available), she haphazardly investigated only some sections of Florida, did a little work in Washington, and nothing in any other part of the country.

I am a small business owner, and I have learned a great deal in the years I have run my company. It takes more than just being good at one thing to oversee a large project successfully; I have to be a manager, good with the public, able to collect funds, take care of my books, as well as the thousand and one details the government requires of me for the privilege of working for myself. The most important skill of all, however, is prioritizing my time and resources. If I don't display that critical ability, it doesn't matter how talented a database developer I am, because my business will fail.

Ms. Harris has made critical mistakes in the last two months; she over promised and under delivered. While I am sure her intentions were the best, she did not manage available resources in a fashion that would have benefited this country for decades to come. Some people work hard, and some people work smart. Ms. Harris worked hard, but not smart. I am NOT impressed with her or her organization, and would recommend anyone interested in fixing the voting system in this country look elsewhere if they wish for effective and competent leadership in this ongoing effort.

Some people may find my indictment of Ms. Harris' incompetence harsh; I am sharing my opinion, based on my experience, and people may ignore it or not as pleases them. I will add only this to my report:

At a certain point, TRYING isn't enough. If you can't DO IT, get out of the way so someone else can instead.

Regards,
Ida M. Briggs
www.invisibleida.com

[Malikshah]

1. And as there is no threat of rebuttal.

It makes it all the easier.

Sorry, but this sort of thread just screams instigation.

I'm not BBV fanboy/flameboy. I am, however, sick of seeing folks feel free to attack in public forums those who are not allowed to respond.

This goes for the BBV forums as well.

[havocmom]

5. the only person stopping Bev from issuing rebuttal

is Bev.

But if she graces us with her views now, she had best come with video ;)

[Malikshah]

7. Um...wasn't she tombstoned--or has she been allowed to return?

Hmm?

[havocmom]

26. LOL- in fact: ROTFLMAO

She has her agents here and many of us have had the pleasure of being accused of all sorts of things by many of them for simply putting forth questions.

[Malikshah]

27. Now she has agents??? OMG

Someone--quick! Check under the beds!

Oh, won't anyone please think of the children!!!

Please. Chill. Have some dip.

[crispini]

31. There are plenty of sockpuppets and bots around here. n/t

[havocmom]

37. Thank you. I was trying to be nice and use a word other than sock-puppet

but evidently, there are sock-puppets who don't like euphemisms ;)

[Malikshah]

45. Ah, the winky smilie--

Heaven forbid that would refer to me? I've studiously kept out of the BBV debacle -- only posting when I found the dogpile mentality distasteful or when there would be one sided "no discourse" threads created.

Sorry--you'll have to look elswhere for your sockpuppet/agent. (feel free to review my posts at your leisure :) )

[havocmom]

48. Don't take things personally which weren't meant personally

there are lots of socks in the world

[Malikshah]

As this little back and forth was in reference to my post

Sorry-- you'd need to make it clear then--it wasn't referring to me.

I'm so relieved though. Too bad I already ate the 15 page report I'd created to send over to BBV via carrier pigeon. (That's gonna hurt later on.) ;)

[havocmom]

85. replied to someone other than you, didn't occur to me that you would

internalise comments. Sorry if eating "the 15 page report" gives you a tummy ache. Can I get you something for it?

[salin]

33. we run hot and cold here

and yes there have always been outside groups that come in to push their view on DU... happened throughout the primaries.... not a new phenomenon.

for a long time any criticism of bev was attacked viciously. then it flipped (due to her own actions, btw, that were remarkably consistent with her behavior throughout her long tenure at DU) in terms of public sentiment...

Now we are at an impasse with folks trying to rehab recent history and others still stinging and responding. Actually it is the most "balance" there has ever been on DU per sentiments towards bev (with both critics and supporters). Just my opinion.

[Malikshah]

38. I just can't get past the word "agent"

I have this image in my mind of some fedora wearing nefarious creature with a trench coat and a secret BBV.ORG (must be ORG--or you know it's fake) fomenting disputes etc.

Only problem is-- there's nothing easy to rhyme with BBV.org a la "Better Dead than Red"....

Folks need to step away and relax a bit.

[salin]

44. hehe - we also trend towards hyperbolic phrases

to describe real phenomenons. There was an influx of supporters who came to DU after the "blowup" real phenomonon. (One that, as I said before, has happened many times, be it supporters of a candidate in the primaries - as happened with multiple candidates... or be it supporters of a cause such as this)... but the high emotions here do lend themselves to terms that conjour up some pretty funny images.

[Kelvin Mace]

56. She has DOZENS of proxies on this site

Why don't you ask her to address the issue and you can post her reply?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[havocmom]

66. Thank you David

:loveya: for that and so very much more that you have done/said.

[papau]

15. Very True! :-)

I like Bev and her energy -

but nothing in the original post seems very far out of line with what little I know of her.

[salin]

6. on the other hand,

those who invested a huge amount of time at great personal expense, as I believe Ida has done, I think have earned the right through personal investment to the cause, to reflect upon their experiences - especially as it refers to moving forward for the movement in a forum dedicated to that purpose (eg most people posting on this particular forum are likely to keep working for the cause of detecting and ferroting out voter fraud to raise awarenes, and hopefully someday, prevent us from becoming a joke of a one party state because our elections become predictably manipulated ala Ukraine.

[WilliamPitt]

9. Bev has a whole website of her own

and can rebut anytime she chooses.

[Malikshah]

13. The point I was making is that she can not rebut in this forum

Sorry if this was unclear.

I would have thought that the difference was clear.

2 separate forums arguing at each other, not with each other
2 separate groups fighting the same cause but in different ways.

Yup-- great solution.

BTW-- sorry for pissing in your wheaties this morning. I feel so happy to have had three negative attacks all in the span of the hour when in most universes we agree on most of the points. (oops.. there's that damn pattern -- must stop mentioning these things.)

best to you.

[IdaBriggs]

47. I am not a member of the BBV forums. I am a member of DU.

I am reporting on my experiences and observations. Since I am sharing MY OPINIONS, there is nothing to rebut.

Look, I'm not sure what you want to be happening here -- do you want to know what has been happening "behind the scenes" for the last couple of months or not? Sometimes its not pretty. I'm not in any kind of war with Bev Harris or BBV, nor am I involved in any kind of "competition" for publicity or funds; I'm just flat out reporting what I observed. Your interpretation of what I'm saying may be different. I can live with that. But I'm not going to "be quiet" because some of what I'm saying is unflattering; I think people need to know what's been happening the last couple of months.

As I said, I think she had good intentions. That didn't make her either competent or perfect. Frankly, I think she got in over her head. It happens. It doesn't have to be a personal thing. Mistakes get made. Either fix them, or get out of the way so someone else can.

[Malikshah]

57. I'm not looking for anything beyond

folks not creating an environment in which the dogpile mentality will take hold.

I don't want/need to know the details of Bev's your TIAs or anyone's trials and tribulations at this point.

What I've seen is that someone is taken to task without an opportunity to defend themselves--long after the corpse has been laid to rest--

As I suggested to someone else-- stand back-- and think about how the initial thread looks--
Bev's gone. She ain't coming back. Their forum is their forum. They don't like DU (I'd guess) and the feeling is mutual (I'd guess)

In the endit's like digging up the grave just to yell at the body some more.

All this chewing of stale vomit ends up with a nothing but a bad case of halitosis.

Going back to the old tried and true rules-- what was the intent of this thread--was it to be productive?

[IdaBriggs]

72. "Was it to be productive?" -- Yes.

If people don't know about the problems, then we can't fix them. If people mistakenly think "big talk" means accomplishment, then they don't know to look elsewhere for ongoing solutions.

Bev Harris and BBV collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from people who desperately wanted to help with election fraud investigation. I am flat out telling you that, in my opinion, with these observations to back me up, those resources were not used in an effective way to accomplish the goal of investigating election fraud. If you don't find me a credible source, that is your business; my credentials are not a secret.

There are lots of other groups out there who are working on election fraud investigations -- you can go to www.auditthevote.org for some links -- and they need resources. I have offered my opinion, I am not grinding a personal ax but reporting on my observations and experiences, and I will no more keep quiet about this than I would about a crooked mechanic who tried to rip me off -- there are just times when you have to tell people what happened, even when its unpleasant. (You can decide how accurate the analogy is for yourself.)

I'm not going to respond to this "should I tell or not" stuff anymore. I hope I am clear on what I am doing, and why, and if not, people can PM me for more details.

[Malikshah]

73. I'm not suggesting you keep quiet

I've been told enough times to do that.

I was simply stating the fact that the thread subject (replete with harsh language warning) is like blood in the water these days.

Sorry, but I was just giving a critique of the methodology, not the message.

As this thread has now grown exponentially and, as you can see, all the "usual suspects" are involved-- I feel my critique was not unwarranted.

I do apologize, however, if you feel I was attacking your intent or your work.

[Kelvin Mace]

77. Huh?

By your logic, someone reporting on unethical/stupid/illegal behavior by George Bush (from personal experience) should not post here because it would be unfair.

Bev Harris is a (self-made)PUBLIC figure and as such it is completely appropriate for folks to discuss their opinion of her and her actions on this board. She used DU as a base of operation and she used it to raise money from people posting here. She also attacked and libeled many people on this board. But, since she has been banned, she suddenly can't be touched.

Sorry, don't see the logic.

[Malikshah]

78. Then read my other posts--it was never about the message

it was about the methodology.

Let the sharks circle more.

[salin]

80. please understand

that some of what you see here - is residual from shark bait thrown at others by none other than the focus of this thread. A lot of pain and frustration was built up over a very long time. Folks who were never on DU were villified ruthlessly - some had to learn of their vilification elsewhere - and join DU briefly just to defend themselves from - dare I say slander - being propogated by bev on DU? (David Dill, stanford researcher who brought some weighty analysis and credibility to the early efforts, comes to mind...)

This, sadly, is a message boards from of you reap what you sow.

[Malikshah]

89. I've been here a while

and i've seen all the angst and blood-letting--

I know of what you speak.

The cycle of violence must end. :)

[Kelvin Mace]

90. So, what do you propose?

I've tried ignoring Bev and that doesn't work, she continues to libel and slander myself and other activists and continues to bring discredit to the movement.

I am not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely love to know how we can stop the violence when one side refuses to listen.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Malikshah]

91. Uh, this thread does not seem to show that this side is done

with the violence. Hence, I was the first to respond to it.

You didn't start the thread--but so many have taken part in the bloodletting.

Not taking part in collective dogpiles and reopening of wounds (i.e. this thread) would be a start.

I haven't seen a whole heck of lot of threads today ripping you a new one on DU.

Sorry, but the argument that someone else started it does not work with this particular thread.

To reiterate--this is about the methodology-- not the messages or the ongoing war.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. Hate to break it to you

but you seem to think that if we stop, she'll stop. She won't.

So, what methodology do you feel we should use?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Malikshah]

99. The only evidence I've seen on DU has been from the anti-BBV

crowd. Justified or not-- that's what I saw today.

My advice stays the same as it was in the earlier post.

Do not take part in the bickering.

Truth will out.

[Kelvin Mace]

107. There are dozens of links from numerous posters

documenting Bev's behavior, including MUCH from Bev's own mouth.

The reason you see scant HARD evidence to defend Bev is that in my opinion none exists. These are not just folks make unsubstantiated charges, these are people coming forward with hard evidence. Also, how many people have to tell something from first-hand experience before you believe it?

It is nice to say that the truth will out, but that is just ridiculous. The truth does nothing of the sort unless someone tells it, which is what the original poster did.

If we could rely on the truth "outing" itself, BBV would be a non-issue. Most of the time, the truth be dragged kicking and screaming into the light.

Also, the truth may set you free, but recognizing a lie for what it is will keep you out of bondage in the first place.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Malikshah]

115. Um...I'm not talking about defending Bev

Will you folks read before you respond.

I'm not out to defend Bev, Ida, or anyone. I'm not out to attack what they do in their efforts either.

That is NOT what I've been going on about here.

I've been talking about reopening old wounds. That was the issue I was criticizing.

Stop trying to change the issue from what I was talking about please.

[Kelvin Mace]

117. I'm not.

I am asking you how Ida should have dealt with the issue.

You say her message was fine, but it was expressed wrong. How would you have expressed it.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Malikshah]

118. Sorry, I'm done playing this game after this.

It is clear you do not understand my point.

It's the methodology-- in other words-- the issue was over.

It was buried.

It has now been unearthed for folks to chew over again. To get their last hits in on the corpse.

It was an instigating thread title--as I said elsewhere--and it worked wonders--even though that wasn't the intent.


The only way to have solved the problem was to NOT have started the thread in the first place. How productive was it? Does it pass that test?

[ohio_liberal]

119. I respectfully disagree

The issue isn't over and it isn't buried. For some, there are/were just too many unanswered questions.

[Malikshah]

128. Oh-- so Bev is coming back then?

She's not banned. The dogpile sharkfest didn't already take place?

Oh. Ok. I must have missed all that.

It's not the issue that's buried-- it's the feeding frenzy that had finally stopped and is now renewed.

Geez, I wish folks would read posts first.

[Kelvin Mace]

120. Okay, so you want the issue buried...

Cool.

I completely disagree with you, but at least I understand what you are saying.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Malikshah]

129. No-- you don't understand at all--the issue was the feeding frenzy

but it's clear that this is a lost cause--"this" being trying to explain that I am NOT REFERRRING to the underlying issues re: BBV--but rather the feeding frenzy.

I do wonder about folks here at times. Do people even read posts and think about them before responding?

Sorry--but after three or more of these explanations it gets old real quick.

[Kelvin Mace]

143. If Bev commits yet another outrage

should the person so assualted post, or remain silent?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[straw_citizen]

108. People have become anti-Bev that didn't start out that way.

You can keep clucking all day, but it won't change what Bev Harris made a reality. Let her take the hits she inspired like a big girl.

[Malikshah]

116. You appear to have not read any of my posts

I'm not defending or attacking Bev.

I'm criticizing posts like yours--fomented by the dogpile mentality that many take on this issue.

This was dead and buried and was "reborn" so folks can get their catty little digs in.

"You can keep clucking all day, but it won't change what Bev Harris made a reality. Let her take the hits she inspired like a big girl."

How is this statement conducive in any way to productive discourse? Sorry--this kind of post proves my point.

[havocmom]

123. So the issue is "dead and buried"? Guess we all missed the memo

appointing you as the coroner who gets to make that call.

You protest that you are neither for nor against Bev or any other poster here, but your message is pretty constant. You want us to shut up about it; yeah, we got it. Thing is, you aren't the boss of us. And some of us are getting a tad tired of the tactics. Some around here get their second wind and just plain get ornery when others want them to be silent.

Maybe that freedom of speech thing-y annoys you but some around here are pretty fond of it.

;)

[Malikshah]

131. OK--this is it.

It is clear that you have completely misunderstood what I've been saying and appear not to have even tried to.

From the get go-- I said it wasn't about the underlying issues---it was about the method--the feeding frenzy.

And yet numerous folks just keep seeing what they want to see in my posts.

It is quite clear that I'm arguing with a series of brick walls.

I have every right to critique dogpiling methodology, and unproductive threads--it's not about silencing discussion--it's about trying to make discussion more effective, less acrimonious.

And then we have this:

You protest that you are neither for nor against Bev or any other poster here, but your message is pretty constant. You want us to shut up about it; yeah, we got it. Thing is, you aren't the boss of us. And some of us are getting a tad tired of the tactics. Some around here get their second wind and just plain get ornery when others want them to be silent.

Sorry-- when did I tell people to shut up?

When did I say I was the boss of anyone?

It is clear that you are seeing only what you wish to see in my posts --have fun. Go back to the sharkfest.

[havocmom]

134. Interesting how you plead you have been misunderstood or declare we

are dense when one of us calls you on your tendency to try and bully us into submission or silence. You have played different versions of that same theme several times on this thread.

Haven't we all seen this tactic time and time again? Who is it that uses tactics like that? In my extreme brick wall state, I loose track of the folks who try to stop free speech and the exchange of ideas.

You attack how we phrase the message then attack it when we rephrase. You plead that you are not understood if we hold our ground and stand up to you or you infer that we are not mentally able to understand your finer nuances. All is pretty amusing and rather telling.

Banter semantics all you want, but don't expect to shut anyone up. These good folks around here are sorta happy to exercise certain rights.

;)

[Malikshah]

196. Sorry, but that tune you keep singing is a bit off

Please quote me -- where do I tell people to shut up?

You can repeat these attacks on me as much as you like--repeat and repeat away-- they won't make it any more true.

I would argue, however, that in so doing, you only add to the acrimony.

Have fun. Feel free sling the arrows at me all you want--when you're done with my bones, make sure to crack them to get the marrow out. :)

Peace to you.

[salin]

197. in fight all you want

but the important info and discussion and clarification is all down thread. Pertaining to whether or not hard evidence was found on tape, a lawyers advice to keep it secure, clarification that due to 501c3 (non profit/nonpolitical) status that this made sense... and the fact of a planned federal qui tam suit (and how that may help or hurt the cause).

Frankly without this thread - intent, style or strategy not withstanding, this info may not have come together (I hadn)'t heard of it - and appreciated the clarification which cast it in slightly a less dubious sounding light.)

[straw_citizen]

216. excuse you?

Maliksha, you were the main person who kept this thread alive. You refuse to grasp that many, MANY people have been victimized by Bev Harris and they are not done speaking up about it. You can maintain that one victim speaks for all if you like, it doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, this link was passed on to me because of YOUR comment. Otherwise I would not have bothered.

[salin]

92. believe it or not, I think it is beginning to wind down.

all things being relative the tone is more sarcastic and cynical than exceptionally hostile and angry as was the case not so long ago.

Peace won't likely ever be made - too many burnt bridges. But the sideshow effect will die down.

Of course if she really does have something block buster inducing and goes public - I imagine there may actually be some rehabbing of her rep here. But that seems to grow less likely as time goes by.

[Malikshah]

95. I would have agreed up until this morning

And then the stitches were removed.

Oh well-- I agree- bridges are burnt, horses are gone from the barn, and the babies in the yard-wet, bruised, and wondering why it got thrown out of the bath.

It is indeed like herding cats at times.

[salin]

98. again

it is the tone of the responses that are different, and to me an indication of a shift. Cynicism and sarcasm is very different than wholesale knife and dagger throwing. Yes, the responses are still numerous... but the tone/tenor is different. First step, imo, towards indifference - where a thread such as this would end up with supportive comments for Ida (no reason to doubt her experiences and frustrations) and a few cynical barbs at bev and little else (eg not so many people needing to come in and view). I think had the GBnC thing gone down as it did - reviving the animosity and pain... that this point would have been reached sooner. But that was so ugly - and so real to so many DUers who had watched his efforts for so long - and knew that he had put his life/profession on the line to become so deeply involved... that I think much of the revived anger was a form of empathy and, in truth, purging (not in the gulag sense ofthe word but in the fasting for purity within the body a process to clear out the toxins built up within the body.) Hence - given how recent that was.... I think the shift in tone is significant.

Heck - even many "Deaniacs" and "Clarkies" and "Kerryites" who could not play with throwing serious daggers at each other - have been playing nioely together for months (not all... but most).

[Lerkfish]

139. actually, I found Ida's post thoughtful and balanced...but...

I find your continual harranging and then victim-playing to be much less thoughtful and unbalanced.

*shrugs* If you don't want the controversy to continue, then walk away from these threads and save yourself the cost of pepto-bismol.

[Malikshah]

199. Sorry--not playing the victim. Won't walk away

I believe sincerely that this discussion of methodology transcends the issue of who did what to whom in the great BBV fiasco.

I would have hoped that my concerns were noted for what I was intending, but as I am now being labeled in your post as unbalanced, I guess I will have to continue to hope a bit longer.

No hard feelings on my part. Disappointment, but not regrets that I said my say.

Enjoy 2005.

all the best.

p.s. btw it's haranguing. at first I thought I was being likened to a fish.

[regularjoe]

49. DUers can't help the fact that Bev isn't allowed to post here...

and posting comments critical of Bev at BBV is a waste of time because they will be deleted quickly.

[WilliamPitt]

51. Please

Negative attacks?

I don't think so. You are jumping at shadows.

[Malikshah]

60. Funny. I was thinking the same thing

Not about me of course.

Guess it just shows the limitations of the internet and discussion forums.

[Kelvin Mace]

64. You know, I keep pointing that out

but for some reason the aurgument falls on deaf ears. It's not like can arrange to have her view posted or links to her view posted. It is not like if she did respond on her site people would not post the response here:

The arugument of unfairness is NULL and VOID.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Orsino]

50. Only Bev...

...to my knowledge, was banned from this site. If she has made genuine accomplishments, surely there are plenty of people who could defend her.

I don't mind harsh opinions so much, when they are clearly labeled as opinions. And getting oneself banned from a web forum doesn't, IMO, exempt one from criticism or support--especially public figures such as Bev.

[Kelvin Mace]

54. Bev can respond from her forum

there is nothing unfair about this. We can't post in her forum, she can't post here. Bev will not adrdess these issues because she can't.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[havocmom]

2. OK, am running to the kitchen to get the popcorn going. It is snowing

something fierce outside, I don't wanna do chores... this is gonna be great to watch!

[Jo March]

3. Ida, I have to be careful because you know my true identity, but

I love you and your fighting spirit! You were not harsh in what you wrote.

As I said in another post of yours, you inspired me time and time again due to your willingness to work and stay calm in the storm. I hate to hear the bitterness creeping into your voice.

The truth will prevail despite everything.

If you need anything, just PM me and I'll support you!

[Eric J in MN]

4. If they were busy investigating Florida,

maybe they just didn't have the resources to help with New Hampshire?

[IdaBriggs]

12. We had spoken with someone affiliated with her group

who I was under the impression was going to come to New Hampshire and analyze the FOIA information. (I was working behind the scenes to get volunteers to collect it in New Hampshire so the BBV person could analyze it.) I personally spoke to this person, but then NEVER heard from this person again. I am sure this person had a good reason for not coming; I just don't know what it is. Meanwhile, I sort of looked like a fool in front of the folks I was recruiting to collect the data, and I really didn't appreciate that. My future credibility was somewhat damaged as a result. :(

[Eric J in MN]

142. Is it Bev Harris' fault if someone working for her said he

would fly to New Hampshire and then didn't and didn't explain?

[Kelvin Mace]

144. Again, it is someone elses fault

not Bev's. At least you are consistent.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Eric J in MN]

160. It would be different if Bev Harris personally promised

to send someone.

If someone working for her said he'd fly to New Hampshire and didn't, she can't control that.

[Kelvin Mace]

162. I believe she did..., but I could be mistaken

But it is odd that EVERONE else is wrong an Bev is so misunderstood or the victim of sabotage.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Eric J in MN]

169. If Ida Briggs says that, I may change my mind about this (nt)

nt

[IdaBriggs]

209. I was under the impression that Bev had OK'd the trip.

But I received the information from "someone else" that "no-show person" was going to be there under the BBV auspice, and it is possible there was some confusion. Andy was also confused as to why
"no-show person" did not show up, and was with Bev at the time we discussed "no-show person" not being in New Hampshire. The "someone else" was working to get the appropriate signatures from Bev for the volunteers to pick things up in the New Hampshire counties, so, again, I have to say my impression was that Bev was in agreement with the "no-show person" doing analysis work in New Hampshire, and Andy's confusion as to why "no-show person" wasn't there led me to believe they had expected "no-show person" to be there, also.

Just to clarify, "someone else" and "no-show person" are two different individuals, both of whom I personally spoke with. :)

[JMac]

24. Um

I think that was the OP's point. While they (BBV) were running around in Florida like chickens with their heads cut off, they dropped the ball in many other areas.

On edit: Sorry Ida, I didn't mean to speak for you. Your reply wasn't there when I posted how I read your OP.

[Kelvin Mace]

68. I swear, this is like talking to neo-cons about Bush

Nothing is *EVER* his fault. Nothing.

Mountains of evidence is brought from multiple sources against Bev and folks just DO NOT want to face the truth.

Bev stuck her nose into NH so she could get publicity. She made lots of promises, then delivered on NOTHING. I am not as willing to give her the benefit of the doubt as Ida is. Bev was grandtsanding, as she ALWAYS does. It is NOT about voting integrity, it is about The Bev Harris Show(tm) All RIGHTS RESERVED, .ORG not .com Click HERE to donate $35 in chump change Click HERE to see who I am blaming now.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Andy_Stephenson]

138. Bullkshit.

I was asking when we were going to Ohio. I also said one of us should have gone to New Hampshire.

I was rebuffed on both counts.

[Eric J in MN]

141. Were you and Bev Harris in Florida at the time,

and if so, didn't you have your hands full with Florida?

[Kelvin Mace]

145. As I recall, Bev was

in Florida grandstanding. She certainly wasn't answering her phone, voicemail, email, etc. You'd think that somebody who spends so much time on this issue that she can't return messages from the press, activists and Randi Rhodes would have something to show us.

BTW, have you ever actually met and worked with Bev?

[Eric J in MN]

159. I've never met her or worked with her. (nt)

nt

[Kelvin Mace]

161. OK, so

why do you constantly disregard the testimony of people who HAVE worked with her?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Eric J in MN]

170. I'm not disregarding it. I admire what Bev Harris has done,

and I'm presenting another side.

[Kelvin Mace]

173. What Bev has done

is crib work from other people and palm it off as her own. Why is this admirable?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Eric J in MN]

181. Other writers are praised for the number of footnotes.

Yet Bev Harris gets bashed for not inventing the contents of her book, "Blackbox Voting."

[Kelvin Mace]

183. No, just for taking credit for other people's work

She originally started working on the book when she was paid to do research for Steve Hertzberg. It was supposed to be a collaborative effort, but she dumped him when I came along (I was unaware of this ujnti recently). She dumped Rox, who along with a team of programmers did all the analysis of the Diebold when Rox wouldn't go along with her lying about her files being "seized". She dumped me when she thought she could swing a better deal with another publisher, then sabotaged that effort when she couldn't get my name of the book legally and because she needed me out of the way to file her qui tam suit. She then dumped Andy when she got all she needed out of him so she could file her Federal suit.

Notice a pattern?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Eric J in MN]

189. I haven't read the book. Does it have footnotes? (nt)

nt

[Kelvin Mace]

193. It has footnotes,

but these are mostly historical citations and newspaper cites she dug up while working for Steven Hertzberg.

Also, there are now TWO versions of the book, the original and the her latest which she rewrites parts to play up her own role and downplay others.

OK, you haven't read the book, have you read here posts here where she attacks other activists? Have you read where she lies about it? Have you read where she claims the whole book was here work?

This was my work product, folks. My research. My time. My publicity efforts. My proofing. My structural editing (didn't get that, either). My fact checking. My Pulitzer-Prize deserving work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1333930#1335869

Have you read how she screwed things up for teh Florida activists by her showboating?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=109689&page=


David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[kamqute]

8. AMEN TO THAT!

I add my testament to that.

[Mike Nelson]

10. Thank you for your work, Ida (nt)

nt

[Darkhawk32]

11. If you pimp for money, scream that you have proof, then show nothing....

You're done.

[Must_B_Free]

14. WAAAH! Bev Harris didn't do what I wanted, I hate her!

[salin]

17. interesting

read of the original post. Almost reads like a wee bit of projection.

[IdaBriggs]

19. I do NOT hate Bev Harris.

Personally, she seems like a nice enough person. I am reporting on my observations and experience with her involvement (and mine) in the last two months of election fraud investigation. If you aren't interested in my experiences, and wish to minimize them as whining instead of unemotional analysis, that is your right. I am not interested in being baited; if you feel a need to do so, please let me know so I can put you on ignore.

[JMac]

30. Are you showing your age or IQ? Both seem low to me. n/t

On edit: I am replying to MustBFree's Waaa comment above not Ida's.

PS. Ida you will need that ignore button. Anytime you mention Bev, her minions rush from the BBV site and will start nipping at you heels like the poodles they are. Witness MBF.

[havocmom]

70. JMac, good observation and a great analogy.

I have started using the 'buddy list' option not as a way of keeping a list of posters I agree with but rather to keep track of the Bev-istas who seem to travel around nipping at critics while proclaiming to be protecting expression (so long as the expression is from Bev's POV).

Poodles, I love it! They try to be a wolf pack, but wolves are clever, stealthy creatures who do not go around trying to get attention.

Poodle heel nippers... LOL

[Must_B_Free]

135. well, I'm not 150 years old

so you figure it out...

[salin]

55. Don't worry about bev - even without DU

she appears to be hitting the quest for more funding... imagine that with her careful pruning that she will be fine...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x210263

[Razorback_Democrat]

75. "Let the Eagles Soar"

I just don't know what to make of this Black Box Bev anymore, when I started on DU she was some kind of hero, now she is defrocked.

Personally, I think it is best not to put anyone on a pedestal, they will always fall from it.

Black Box Bev should answer the questions that have been asked of her.

But I doubt anyone can lay blame for "destroying democracy" on her alone.

If there is a conspiracy in the aftermath of this election it appears to be one of silence on behalf of the MSM and the candidate Kerry, who I supported as strongly as anyone because he was the Dem candidate.

Let's move on from BBV and look at what we have to work with.

What do you say?

(flame away)

[Kelvin Mace]

79. So, despite being banned she still manages

to get her viewpoint across.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[salin]

81. and solicitations

[Kelvin Mace]

69. Speaking of proxies, right on schedule

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[LittleClarkie]

104. His sock needs washing.

I should really make myself a scorecard.

Bev defenders
Kerry bashers
Dean defenders
That's-it-I'm-voting-Green-ers
The-DLC-is-evil-ers
Kerry supporter-ers (of which I'm)

and the like

Git yer scorecard! Can't tell the sockpuppets without a scorecard! Scorecard here!

[Must_B_Free]

137. same as ever, huh?

yeah yteah, we know, anybody who opposes your view is a bad guy. yawn...

shall I write a perl script to do your bashing for you and save the effort? it's predictable enough to automate...

You had better be sure she never produces anything, or you will be made the fool.

[Kelvin Mace]

146. Bev made a fool of me when I was naive enough to trust her

And when she fails to produce anything, will you admit to being a fool like me?

avid Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[LittleClarkie]

102. Similar to "Waaah! John Kerry didn't do what I wanted, I hate him!"

Seems to be a pattern.

[TrustingDog]

125. would you all be so angry if KERRY let you down in this way?

with your 1 and $5 donations, etc.
Are you asking your money back from the DNC? Well, looks like he just might have....

I find it AMAZING that the Democrat party has apparently to this point been 'rather lax' in the whole election fraud issue (They've had a few god damn years to get their shit together, no?, not to mention their vast resources to do so, monetarily and with volunteers aplenty) but has got off with far less insults and accusations and personal ruffling of feathers than Bev has, it seems.

this place reminds me of a freaking lynch mob lately. Can't hang the Real criminals, but gull darn it, we're gonna hang someone!

[Kelvin Mace]

126. Bev claims to have evidence

which the Kerry camp wanted to see, but Bev refuses to show it. The evidence would have, according to Bev, proven fraud. But, Kerry can't see it. Keith Oberlmann can't see it. But one day, REAL SOON, Bev will show it to us. IN the meantime, we need more money, so keep those donations going.

And this is Kerry's fault?

Please show us a single person on DU that John Kerry has defamed as Bev has defamed members of DU.

When you can't refute the facts, change the subject.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[salin]

16. Ida - thanks for your work!

I think you have done a fair job describing the results of incompetence (which I get a sense has much to do with a need to "control" what was happening and a lack of willingness to trust and delegate which severely hampers one organizationally if the needs to be met are many and multifaceted and time is of the essence). You have also, imo, been very fair to seperate out intentions (repeatedly stating that you think her intentions were good) from the resulting problems.

I think public awareness has greatly increased and election integrity will be a growing concern (and thus get more coverage) in future elections in a way that had been woefully ignored after Florida 2000. This is in a great part due to your and many other activists (including bev's) actions.

Thank you.

[Left coast liberal]

195. I'll second that! nt

[straw_citizen]

18. The largest FOIA request in history implies follow up

That has not happened.

Perhaps the Board of Directors would care to respond on either matter. I also wonder about the funds raised through Air America Radio that Bev lied about on her own site. I won't be holding my breath though, since they are Bev bots.

Thanks for speaking up, Ida.

[Demit]

20. I appreciate the recap, Ida. I've come to understand more now.

Four or five weeks ago, I too thought it was unseemly, all the infighting. But too many folks ended up hitting the same theme. Then I did go back and read all those excruciatingly detailed threads in the archives, and got the backstory. I felt sad, because back in the spring, I had stumbled onto BBV first before I got to DU, and had initially felt sympathetic to BH. But following the story--events as they were happening--finally opened my eyes.

Yes, the poll tapes. That's the clincher. I was very excited by that development and now? What, down the memory hole? Too too sad.

To read all those stories of all those disparate people exclaiming, "She won't return calls! I've called umpteen times and she never gets back!" did it for me. I could hear the utter frustration and exasperation.

So if what you wrote also functions as venting, that's fine with me, because it also lets me know how events finally ended up. Too sad!

[SnoopDog]

21. So, has BBV and Harris actually produced anything for...

the cause.

I refused to even read those 200+ long threads on BBV - it seems a waste of time.

Has any tangible work or evidence come out of BBV?

I am asking because I really do not know...

[salin]

25. IMO, she has raised awareness

and as a result of many of her efforts (much of it internet based) brought many more people to the cause. That is very important and should never be discounted.

[SnoopDog]

32. I agree.... But,

Does she really have video tape of election material in the trash? I would think that would be shown around the world. (Unless * got to her first...)

[ohio_liberal]

35. It would seem so

Andy wrote that there is video of the incident that should be owned by BBV.org.

[salin]

42. I don't think that bush got to her

and I do think that she had good intentions (mixed in with some opportunism, imo.) She just seemed to have a tendency to oversell her "goods"... and then micromanage efforts - even those that were collaborations with other groups so she couldn't micromanage them... and had a tendency in that situation to go ballistic - publically - in discrediting efforts- many of which, early on, were very successful, and imo hurt the cause by neutralizing (or turning off out of frustration) some very valuable assets in the movement.

All of that said - I think that her raising of awareness and thus bringing in huge numbers of additional folks working toward the cause of valid elections - was very, very valuable. As I am a critic - I think it is only right that I also give credit, where I believe big credit and thanks are due.

[SnoopDog]

59. Awareness is good, but...

BBV has made strides in the awareness of fraud.
TIA and others has made us aware of the statistical problems.
DUers have made us aware of the the 'illegal' acts by Blackwell.
DUers have made us aware of the disgusting disenfranchisement of voters.
Pitt has made us aware of the law suits and other information.
Our Repub Congress denied Americans of paper trail voting machines.
Et. Al.


I am aware of many things now thanks to the Democratic Underground (love that name).

Still, as Americans, we are screwed (until we finally revolt).

[salin]

61. reading the news I sorta daily feel

the expression "screwing the pooch"... but not as the active participant in that equation.

[Eloriel]

175. micromanage = wrong word

IMO.

A gigantic piece of ALL the problems with Bev (aside from the lies she's told about others and/or her rampant runaway paranoia) is that she is NOT a manager. She hasn't got an executive-type bone in her body. Great investigator, articulate spokesperson, and several other things. But not a manager -- of ANYthing.

I agree with you re credit due her for raising awareness (tho surely she's gotten her due after all this time???). However, from this vantage point I can now look back and see how horribly she hampered the "movement" she had such a large part in creating, how much progress could've been made under other circumstances. I guess that's all water under the bridge, but as I believe is NOT fully appreciated by some posters on this thread, people MUST know what went wrong in order to set a better course and avoid such pitfalls for the future. I am always suspicious (and contemptuous) of attempts to quash truth-telling.

[salin]

180. I don't disagree

which is why, after being a long time observer, I now pipe in.

Perhaps micromanage isnt what I was trying to convey as much as a need to CONTROL and therefor keep hands around everything (hence the term I picked - albiet not the most appropriately) and when can't do so (eg things move beyonnd control) striking out as if that would bring it back under her control.

[RevCheesehead]

202. But that is exactly what a micromanager does, when the job is too big.

Micromanaging is fine if your organization is relatively small. But when you grow, it is absolutely necessary to DELEGATE. That means, pull back, and trust that your people know their job, or will learn.

I worked with someone with very similar traits. He got into a job way over his head, and things began collapsing around him, mostly because he had to know every detail about every little thing. And employees really don't perform as well when someone is constantly looking over their shoulder. One tends to respond, "why don't YOU do this, since my efforts aren't good enough for you?"

A micromanager looses sight of the big picture. Their demand for perfection at the lower levels makes one a manager of trees, not the forest.

[Kelvin Mace]

71. If you bring people to the clause

then abuse them and piss them off, it discredits the cause.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[MelissaB]

22. The next question becomes

what do we do next. It seems there are others who are willing to lead in this issue. No, I haven't checked them out. There are others willing to follow. We need a plan and organization.

[aquart]

23. It's actually quite a common occurrence.

In animal rescue work. There's so much to be done, some rescuers become consumed with it. When they start, there's usually no one to help them and they do more and more. And despite utter exhaustion, mentally, physically, they keep going and going. Then, when the effort attracts help, and other opinions on how to proceed with it, they can't cope with the noise. They come to feel that they have done so much and given so much that questioning them is a betrayal.

My sister says she's seen this behavior many times.

[regularjoe]

62. Wow, very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Pacifist Patriot]

100. I've seen it in other volunteer/activist areas as well.

I agree with you. I think there is also a fair amount of "getting in over your head" involved sometimes too.

[Tony_Illinois]

28. This Is Ridiculous

Great that you did some good work in New Hampshire. But this attack against Bev Harris (whoever she is) is inappropriate here. These are YOUR issues, and they should be resolved elsewhere.

Additionally, my view is that you do not help the cause of progressive politics when you resort to the behavior you stated in your post yesterday. It was very disappointing to read that when you have opportunities to educate and inform people who support this president whose policies we all despise, your respnse to them is, and I quote you here:

And NO ONE can say the name of the Anti-Christ in front of me without my loud, vehement, angry cry of "CURSED BE HIS NAME!" It shocks people who want to pretend this crime against democracy isn't taking place -- "but he's the president!" is now answered by me with "NO, HE'S THE ANTI-CHRIST, AND THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE OKAY WITH THAT ARE EITHER STUPID OR WORSHIPERS OF SATAN -- WHICH ARE YOU?"

[troubleinwinter]

34. If you objected to the post, you should discuss it in the original thread.

[Stephanie]

36. This attack against IdaBriggs is innappropriate HERE

We are discussing BBV and vote fraud investigations. Why do you bring in another post out of context with which to attack the poster?

[Tony_Illinois]

46. Contratulations on the Caps Lock Key WORKING

I quoted the author to bring into focus how extreme she appears to be.

[Stephanie]

58. Cute.

You'd like to dictate to Ida what topic is appropriate to post about here, while in the SAME post you bring in a completely off-topic and out of context quote.

And I'll just bet you don't know who Bev Harris is. Tell me another.

*edit* If you don't know who Bev is, how did you determine that it was inappropriate to post about her here? Just wondering.

[crispini]

43. Who's Bev Harris? you say?

Ho boy, I respectfully suggest that you read a little bit of the history of this board before contributing to this whole issue. The post is appropriate; this is where it belongs, and is part of a long ongoing 2 year conversation in the voting activism area.

[havocmom]

76. Am trying to fathom who made you the judge of what is inappropriate here

:shrug: Really, I am curious as to who are you to judge what is appropriate? That sort of comment seems better suited to an organization which wants to limit free speech and the constructive exchange of information and ideas than to a forum called Democratic Underground.

Interesting comments and interesting that you feel the need to bring up a dispute you have about a post in another thread on a different topic from a different day. A friendly word to the wise: The mods sometimes frown on that sort of thing.

[Eloriel]

177. No, Tony -- they're OUR issues

In spades.

There'd BE no BevHarris/BBV were it not for DU; there'd have been no New Hampshire recount were it not for IdaBriggs and DUer hedda_foil, and unlikely an Ohio recount either since Nader (thanks to Ida and Hedda) got the ball rolling and Cobb and Badnerik picked it up for Ohio.

DUers contributed mightily to the getting Nader to agree to the recount; DUers have participated in and financially contributed to BBV.ORG for many, many months now; and so forth and so on. So things that happen (or don't) that affect that organization also affect this "movement" and DUers have been involved with all of it all down the line -- and we most definitely have the right if not obligation to share that information amongs ourselves.

The issues Ida raised, and any and all other issues any DUers have raised re Bev Harris are absolutely 100% approriate here, here where she gained and harvested so much thanks to the efforts and generosity of so many.

[RevCheesehead]

203. And the Rev says "AMEN, Eloriel!"

Ida is simply one of the best. You summed up her efforts here quite well.

[crispini]

29. Ida! I was just thinking about you yesterday!

Hadn't seen you around here in a while. Glad to see you're OK.

Ida, I don't know you personally, but I did speak to you once or twice, back in the day, and was on the fringe of the action when YOU, personally, were instrumental in making the NH recount happen. Thank you for all of your hard work as a activist and your professionalism, which I can attest to.

As for the content of the post -- no surprises, and it's good to get your take on it.

[madison2000]

39. Your post basically confirms what I have heard at DU and on AAR

about Bev Harris and BBV. It was a huge task she was undertaking, and perhaps we should have known better than to put all our eggs in one basket on such a critical matter.

I am thinking that it would be good to form another group to attempt the same thing, a group that is willing to use all the help that is offered. If the money has to be raised again and we start from scratch, so be it.

Thanks for your work on New Hampshire.

[0007]

40. I appreciate your given time to some answers I've wondered about.

Who do you think that someone may be, that can get things done? We're all in this fight together and we need each other more than we need over sized egos.

[Not a Sheep]

41. I AGREE 100%... and you weren't harsh enough IMO /eom

[VTGold]

52. The point is that we should put our time and $ elsewhere - I agree :(

[Time for change]

53. This sounds like a balanced and useful assessment to me

I don't have any first hand knowledge of Bev Harris and her organization.

But this does sound like a balanced and useful assessment of what has been going on. You give Bev credit for good intentions, and that makes sense to me, because I have read her book, and I can't imagine that anyone without good intentions would write a book like that and do all the things she's done.

But it's not too uncommon for people with good intentions to screw things up pretty bad. Rather than condemn them for it, we should try to learn from their mistakes, and I think that this post helps some in that regard

[elehhhhna]

63. You said it all right here, Ida:

"BBV is not equipped to prosecute criminal activity; that is not within the scope of their charter, nor should anyone expect them to do so. If BBV actually has evidence of the kind they PUBLICLY claimed, at this point I believe THEY should be prosecuted for conspiracy after the fact for covering it up and/or not revealing it."

Amen.

[candice]

65. Is it still too late?

I, too, was waiting for the "discrepancy" tape from the trash to be addressed, but it seemed to just fade away. Can we assume there was nothing there upon further inspection? Since nothing materialized, I donated twice as much to the recount in Washington as I did to BBV (have yet to receive the BBV book I ordered from Amazon months ago, so it must be popular or else out-of-print).

What also concerns me is the rob.georgia folder that Bev (or someone associated with her found on the Diebold web site). It supposedly contained a patch that was placed on certain voting machines in Georgia. Zogby supposedly "locked down" afterwards to find out what went wrong with their post-election polls. Dem Cleland and the Dem gubernatorial candidate were projected winners. Supposedly, Georgia, which went black box in 2002, was a testing ground for election fraud. Any evidence at all of this? If such a folder had been found, shouldn't this fact be blasted to the ends of the earth and wouldn't the outcome be that there was no blackbox voting in 2004?

Thanks for your work, Ida.

[troubleinwinter]

67. On her site she blamed Kerry, while SHE had the 'evidence'

(from OP)

"....evidence of criminal conduct, and would have provided the excuse required for the Kerry team to unleash their resources....

To date, this "evidence" of criminal conduct has not been made available to the public despite repeated requests... The opportunity that was lost because of this can not be calculated, and the damage to our democracy as a result is intolerable."

[Kelvin Mace]

74. Also, if you have evidence of a crime

and do not disclose it you are obstructing justice.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[RevCheesehead]

204. Is it just me, or does this sound like a sales pitch?

"....evidence of criminal conduct, and would have provided the excuse required for the Kerry team to unleash their resources...."

Show me the money, and you'll get your "evidence?"

Sometimes you simply have to do the right thing, even if you don't get paid for it. I am therefore concluding either: a) this move was a blatant call for coughing up the dough, or b) there really isn't much to the content of the trash bag. Sensationalism gets attention, but after a while people will begin to accuse you of "crying wolf," unless you begin to produce results.

[troubleinwinter]

213. Donors already paid for Bev's trip to FLA

and she clearly does not care about doing "the right thing", otherwise the evidence would already have been turned over to Conyers' committee, and posted for public view.

[librechik]

82. Thank you, Ida

wish we had a hundred like you!

[delphine]

83. I don't know Ms. Harris

but it's beginning to look like she may have some issues that go beyond being disorganized or bitchy or whatever.

She has alienated everyone around her, while acting like she is "the" person going after voting machine fraud. Everything is a big deal, the thing that's going to blow this wide open, and yet nothing ever happens.

I've said before that Bev Harris has to be the single most inept public relations person on the planet (close second is the Kerry campaign team, but that's another issue)

For several years she has worked hard and documented the importance of the black box voting issue.

At several points she has had respected journalists and tv and radio pundits, high profile politicians, and dedicated experts "with" her.

However, she has managed to alienate every one of them. And in the process all but destroyed the credibility of the anti black box movement.

There can be no explanation or excuse for not producing "smoking gun" evidence in time for it to be useful. None. Not ego or logistics or anything.

She has hurt the cause by taking the lead and then balking.

I don't know her or anyone else involved. I have no personal feelings about a woman I have never met.

My feelings are about voting machines and how they threaten our democracy. And because of that I cannot abide anyone who purports to be addressing that issue but can't get out of her own way.

Many here try to disparage every single person who has individually concluded that Ms. Harris is at best not effective and at worst pathological. However, every person who has spoken out has demonstrated a commitment to the issue and voiced the same frustrations about Ms. Harris.

It's time we listen to and support the reasonable professionals who've tried to hang in there instead Ms. Harris.

[Kelvin Mace]

84. Thank you

There are many people out there nationally and locally working on the issue.

Bev Harris is not the "be all" and "end all" of this movement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Sydnie]

86. I was wondering about you this morning myself, Ida

Glad to see you posting today.

As for your post, I agree completely. You worked so hard to get NH to happen and I appreciate it so much. All my volunteer time for the campaign was in NH and was very interested in your work there.

I also agree, if Bev has the "goods on tape" then she needs to realize that it is crunch time and it needs to be brought out and shared NOW. Holding on to it to make a "feature film" (which I believe is her plan -- no evidence mind you, just gut feeling there) a la MM, she better think again. She's no MM. She couldn't handle the kind of pressure he has endured!

If you have the film Bev, step up to the plate and show it NOW. (I know that message will get back to her through the "grapevine". Hopefully, sooner than later!)

[eleny]

87. Thanks Ida

I haven't been involved too deeply over at bbv org. Over time reading about the troubles people have had, it's obvious that an important resource has lost its way. Before Christmas, I pm'd Bev asking her to remove me from the forums. I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt. But if that organization can't work cooperatively with like minded groups motivated by honest intentions, there's no point in associating with it.

[saracat]

88. THANK YOU IDA !

for all your efforts and thank you for this behind the scenes look. People need to know this and you are kind to share. I don't think you are harsh enough. My temper would have snapped long ago You still remain balanced and fair. Thank you again.

[NewsGuyOne]

93. Blah! Nonsense!

"At a certain point, TRYING isn't enough. If you can't DO IT, get out of the way so someone else can instead."

If there were 1,000 people lining up to "DO IT," as you say, you'd have a point.

[IdaBriggs]

97. Many of those people did not line up because ....

"someone else" was supposedly taking care of things. Believe me -- I was there. We also had access to thousands of volunteers via DU and Common Cause (among other resources) who were more than willing to step up / help out / do whatever. I am reporting on what I observed; you may choose to believe it or not as pleases you.

[stlsaxman]

167. As Robert Fripp once said- "To try is to fail" n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

171. I thought it was Yoda?

Do, or do not/ There is no try.

<g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[stlsaxman]

178. Sounds like something Yoda would say!

can almost hear his voice, yeah same idea.

[RevCheesehead]

205. Gospel of Lukas, Episode V

Yoda to Luke, who believed he could not lift his ship out of the mire because it was "too heavy."

[NewsGuyOne]

214. Grow up nt

[fiddlestix]

96. I gave money to BBV.ORG...

It was a dark & stormy night...I was lying in The Post-Election Fetal Position...listening to The Goddess, Randi Rhodes & her Happy Re-Cap of Election Night...to this day, I shake my head at the concept that Kerry lost/Dubya won & Randi was as pissed off as I was...and the 2 things that came from that particular show were:

1-Fax Ralph Nader a request to contest New Hampshire, but hurry & git-er-done before 5PM or Fuggedaboutit...I don't own a fax machine, so I fuggotaboutit...

2-Mail a check to BBV.ORG or donate via her website. I pulled out a credit card & fired up the computer & the BBV site was FLOODED with Randi Rhodes listeners like me simultaneosly accessing the site to give money...I kept revisiting the site till it FINALLY (HAH!) came back & donated For The Cause.

What was The Cause to which I donated, huh? Fuggedaboutit!

*sigh*

[Andy_Stephenson]

149. I take part of the blame

I was on Randi Rhodes asking for the faxes and money. I can believe the donate page was flooded. Bev's accounting of 23,800 dollars from Randis show...is woefully off the mark.

Sorry I encouraged people to donate....now.

I was duped as well.

[New Earth]

101. i don't want to start another Bev/BBV post, but i have a question

why is she all of a sudden in Ohio at the last minute? :shrug:

[Doremus]

109. I have an email somewhere that explains that, Faye

If I can find it I'll post it.

But it has to do with interviewing the recount volunteers.

For her movie.

Here it is:

Interestingly, one of the "media" people at the Cuyahoga recount was from
Bev Harris's Black Box Voting, and she's interested in having those of us
who noticed "anomalies", and our attorneys, to get together and talk about
what happened and what we saw ? while she videos. Naturally she wants it
ASAP (and that's really the best thing) cuz it's fresh in our minds & she
could get it out there sooner, but she said that worst case she could wait
until after Christmas. So, those who saw anomalies, were denied access to
information, weren't allowed to see the actual votes, and so on - in any
county ? what do you think? This week or next week? Please let your
coordinator know, and we'll go with majority wishes. (In addition, this
person also indicated that it would be possible for Bev Harris to come to
Cleveland to meet with us.)


This was in a 12/18 email.

[New Earth]

121. that's ridiculous

but thanks for answering.

[troubleinwinter]

122. "For her movie."

She claimed she isn't making a movie. ???? Egads.

[Cookie wookie]

200. That's very concerning.

Wouldn't want anything to mess up the legal things that are happening there . . . .

As far as "her movie," I was under the impression that the filmakers who had included Harris in their footage for the 30 minute video were the producers from votergate.tv, and that Bev Harris owns and/or controls no part of their project, although I don't know anything about them being in Ohio at that time, so maybe Harris has started her own video project (?).

[Kelvin Mace]

111. Good question

I think she is paying attention to Ohio because that is where the light is. When the light shifted from Florida to NH, she went to NH. Now it has shifted to Ohio, so she making noise about Ohio.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Doremus]

103. Just a disappointed observer who now feels like a chump

for pinning high hopes on BBV.

My opinion? Bev knew she struck paydirt the minute she laid eyes on those poll tapes. They're now in her safe deposit box, like any other valuable investment instrument. They'll next see the light of day when they're being handed over to the RNC as part of the settlement agreement that nets her a handsome profit.

We funded the treasure hunt, she struck gold, and we're left holding the bag.

She thanks the gods for bringing her electronic voting.

[ohio_liberal]

105. You think she hit paydirt?

Personally, I think she has nothing.

[Doremus]

110. That's also a possibility. Neither scenario does us any good. :( n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

112. I agree

She thought she had something, and someone rationally assessed it and told her it was nothing. Trouble is, she made a lot of noise and is now stuck. I know Andy disagrees, but until I see the evidence, that's the way I'm betting.

A lot of my time with Bev was spent explaining why her "theories" of sinister actions were bunk.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

114. That's exactly what pisses me off

Right after the election we saw those breathless posts from her about how it was "ok to use the 'F' word". Ok, so we know where the documented fraud is. It's not that I don't think screwy things happened everywhere including Florida, but where is the tangible evidence to back her claims up? She says that she can't jeopardize her lawsuit(s) in Florida, but even Fitrakis, Bonifaz, Cobb et al give the public information on the goings-on in Ohio. We get bupkes from Bev Harris.

[Andy_Stephenson]

150. She hit pay dirt...

I have seen the evidence...I found the discrepancies...she has it...

The evidence will be revealed or hiddedn as it were in a federal QuiTam she has in the works .

[ohio_liberal]

151. Well that would explain a lot

But if you found evidence why does she have it instead of John Conyers et al?

[IdaBriggs]

153. That is the $53 Million Dollar Question -- and one reason for my post.

On Edit: You are NOT the first person to be asking the question. Keith Olbermann's original blog was (I think) an attempt to get her to come forward with her evidence. It didn't work. I think people need to understand this, hence, my original post. :(

[ohio_liberal]

157. I'm trying to get a grasp of it all

I can understand if maybe Andy had to leave BBV.org without taking any of his own research/evidence with him that could've helped right now. But, if someone with direct knowledge were to suggest to the Judiciary Dems that an organization is holding on to evidence in the hopes of filing a federal Qui Tam, might those Judiciary Dems, um, compel said organization to share the evidence?

[Andy_Stephenson]

155. Because it is part of a lawsuit is what I was told...

believe me...I tried to get her to release it but she would not do it.

[salin]

164. sadly,

it is getting harder and harder to believe that the motives for said law suit is simply to make elections more accountable. Seems a lawsuit's impact is much less certain (esp if there is a "Settlement" that requires said evidence gets forever locked down and suppressed) than the impact of going public.... now.

[Kelvin Mace]

165. Understand what Bev is doing here

She is claiming to have evidence of election fraud in a state that if flipped could turn the election.

She refuses to give up that evidence because she is going to use it in a Federal qui tam suit and if successful, get a 15%-30% piece of the $3.9 BILLION in HAVA money.

It is not about the issue, it is about Bev's bank balance.

She is spelling it out for anyone who is paying attention. $75K in California was "chump change". She wants the big bucks.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

On edit: Even if she can only get Diebold, she would be chasing a piece of $200 million.

[troubleinwinter]

174. She is selling us and the world down the river...

blood money.

[saracat]

156. Then she is complicit in keeping Bush in the WH and that makes her a

traitor. She would then be witholding evidence and that is a crime!

[Doremus]

163. That, folks, is her personal retirement fund, bought and paid for by US!

Her track record provides sufficient justification for our assumption that she will sell the evidence -and her silence- for settlement $$.

May she rot in hell.

[troubleinwinter]

168. She has the evidence and is keeping it so she can file for

millions in a federal QuiTam, instead of exposing it publicly and handing it to Conyers.

The world gets four more years of the criminal murderer, tearing our country and the world to shreds.

Bev, there aren't enough dollars in the world to make up for that act of treason, and I hope you choke on them.

I am disgusted to think that our "chump-change" funded you.

Your acts are not "non-partisan", they are acts of criminal complicity.

[Eloriel]

179. Well, Andy, that takes the cake

I'm asking you to tell us anything more you can on a "federal qui tam suit" or plans for same.

Because we've already seen the damage from the California suit -- the AG got involved and settled it and Bev and Jim March got some money (purportedly -- $75K each, wasn't it?) but it didn't stop Diebold, didn't change anything, and NOW the whole thing is moot. All that information (evidence) can't even be used for other things, from what I understand. IOW: this qui tam suit was DAMAGING, not helpful. It's was damaging in ways I never thought of or considered.

Now you're saying she's got plans for a federal qui tam suit as well? If so, this needs to be broadcast to the world. STAT. Starting, perhaps, with Randi Rhodes.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

186. Your donations help her Qui Tam Suit?

So, if folks are gullible enough (after being informed) to donate to the Bev Harris show, then she in turn uses the funding to work on her Qui Tam suit?

And withholds important information that should be publicly revealed now?

That could affect the election results?
:mad:

[Kelvin Mace]

210. Money collected IS HELPING her file her qui tam

Think about it. The money she raised pays her salary and allows her to pursue a Federal qui tam.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[tavalon]

215. What is QuiTam?

I've heard it mentioned a number of times.

[grasswire]

106. when is this going to end?

It always happens in internet-based grassroots efforts. The devouring of the person(s) who led the effort. Whether it's getting donations to send flowers to a Senator or gathering info to preserve the vote. The public fighting is despicable, whether it's a group of Dems or rightwingers. I hate it and think it's wrong.

[trumad]

113. And the list grows on...

Amazing!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

124. This Thread is the Better Business Bureau of BBVoting Activism

Bev is still sending out solicitations for funding, and people new to the issue do not know better.

She isn't producing results, and continues to attack those close to her, one by one. She doesn't conduct her business in a professional manner, but fires people publicly in rants on her web-page.

This thread IS important, because there is no better business bureau of Black Box Voting activism except for here.

Bev continues to ask for donations.:grr:

[zapped 1]

127. and now...

..you even get a personalized "thank you" letter!
How Corporate.

[troubleinwinter]

130. Charming....

considering the $300,000 in donations had been referred to on her
site as "chump-change" by one of her ardent disciples. :puke:

[deacon2]

132. Thank you, Ida

Black Box actually got me thinking about the voting machine issue for the first time and I owe them for that. But what I have observed since then leads me to believe that Ms. Harris is "guilty" of both good intentions and poor execution. I think her well-meaning crusade turned a wee bit messianic and disallowed her from important delegation. Currently, her inability or unwillingness to release the important evidence she claims to possess undermines her credibility and, as Ms. Briggs points out, obstructs important investigation and legal actions that could mitigate the very fraud Ms. Harris claims to abhor. This seems both tragic and misguided - a sad coda to such an auspicious beginning.

[anamandujano]

133. If the Kerry people wanted to see her "evidence"

there is no excuse in the world for not letting them.

It's way past too late.

[Lerkfish]

140. and yet, she lashed out at the Kerry group for not doing enough...

so...which is true? If Kerry wanted the evidence, and she refused, and THEN decried Kerry for not getting involved, someone has a logic imbalance.

[Kelvin Mace]

147. That would be Bev

it is completely in keeping wiyh her behaviour.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Lostnote03]

136. btw....Thank You Ida for all that you have done....n/t

[Eloriel]

148. OMG, I da. I and several others here could've saved you a LOT of

trouble, and wasted effort.

Whatever else Bev is or is not, she's NOT a manager, not a delegator, not an organizer. Period. Period, period, period.

It makes me sick and not a little angry, frankly, that there was PLENTY known about Bev and how she operates and that no one apparently bothered to check it out. Really disappointing, Ida.

If you or anyone else were relying on Bev to perform in ANY way on a joint project, you were ... sorry to be harsh, but incredibly stupid. And like I said, it's not as if she was/is an unknown quantity.

As for your fundraising, I don't agree. I was worried sick AT THE TIME, and there are plenty of posts here that show it, that while any confusion may have been "innocent" going in, the "confusion" was very purposely and craftily left in place. I know in my heart that a LOT of Randi Rhodes contributors thought they were helping with the recount. I know there were plenty of DUers who thought that contributing to Bev was for the recount. I tried, gingerly, to correct the record in every \DU thread where I encountered it -- but was only moderately successful because there was a tidal wave of "BBV, BBV, BBV" and because she was already well-known and too well-respected here at DU.

[IdaBriggs]

152. You are SO one of my heroes here at DU!

You were absolutely amazing throughout the whole thing. To be fair, there were some serious clues that she was not as ... organized ... as one could hope. We lost some serious opportunities (and credibility) because of her claims, but honestly, at this point I think she has been shifted out of the mainstream of election investigation, so now its simply a case of making sure the facts are in the record for future reference so hopefully OTHER people can avoid similar mistakes. Sigh. Anyway, thank heavens we were able to get Andy to Ohio -- I hear he's doing good work there!!! As soon as my optimism returns, I guess things will get better. Between my father, my frustration with the election situation, and my computer's hard drive failing on me, its been a rough couple of months, but the year is almost over, right? 2005 Has Got To Be Better -- Prayer, Plea or Demand -- take your pick! <smile>

[Eloriel]

187. Sorry to dump on you like that

It's just so frustrating that ANYone got duped -- or just stood up -- by her when it was so unnecessary to count on her to begin with.

I hope your father's okay, and your harddrive is all fixed, and ... yes, that we all have a better 2005.

Hugs, dear. You did just great. I just so wish I could've helped more (specifically, in this area).

[Andy_Stephenson]

154. Funny thing here...

she even had me duped into believing that she was going to help with the recount. But after "confering with her attorney" she said she was unable to do so.

[salin]

158. that is curious.. on what grounds would her attorney

state that she should not be involved?

[Eloriel]

182. This part is actually legitimate

Her organization is a 501(c)(3) and can NOT get involved in electoral politics, by IRS rules.

BUT my complaint is that even after SHE knew that, she did absolutely nothing to clarify what her organization could and couldn't do and what contributions to her organization would or could be used for. Nothing. I checked her website a couple of times during this period -- not a word about what the money would (or could) be used for. She knew full well, IMO, that there was all this excitement about the RECOUNT and that there was serious conflation of recount and what she was involved in (FOIA requets) and I strongly believe that she knew full well that some if not many people thought they were donating for the recount when they made contributions to her organization, and did nothing to dispel that confusion.

This is especially my complaint because what she could and couldn't do as a 501(c)(3) was cleared up real fast after Nov. 2, which is precisely how Help America Recount (Hedda's and Ida's 527, formed specifically to help FUND the recounts) was born:

www.helpamericarecount.org

Hedda's other organizations:
www.ballotintegrity.org/

www.AuditTheVote.org

[Kelvin Mace]

184. Hell, even *I* thought

helpamericarecount.org was a Bev shop for several days.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NC Beach Girl]

190. me too!

I thought it was a Bev thing when I read that her qui tam lawyer guy, L. Findley, was the contact address.

http://www.helpamericarecount.org/contact.html

I'm glad this has been clarified, because I wrote it off right away when I saw that!

[salin]

185. Very helpful clarification.

Thanks Eloriel.

btw, if you are ever in contact with Rox - please send her my best. You both did a lot to raise awareness in your important corner of the country. In disparate places when the topic comes up I read, more and more frequently, questions that date back to the 2002 senate election in Georgia - that is, I believe, due to the awareness and hard work early on that you and others took on when it was really an "in the wilderness" issue. *tip of the hat to you all*

[Bill Bored]

166. Thanks Ida for clearing up some of this Bev stuff

(I wish I had gotten this many responses to the post of my letter to my Senators and Congressman though.) :-)
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=205706&mesg_id=205706>

They should have posted a primer on their website explaining what to look for in the FOIA data, and also given the names of the attorneys who are supposedly suing in FL over the bogus/missing poll tapes so the media could reach them.

[BigBearJohn]

172. I am 100% behind you

I had no idea all of this was going on.
I don't have as much time to follow all these
threads as others do, so your note helped.

[leftchick]

176. Ida you are a Warrior for Democracy and I applaud your efforts!...

I can not thank you enough for all of your sacrifice for this cause. I feel deeply for the pain and agony you are going through with your Father's health . I am going through a difficult time with my Dad as well but my sons always bring me back to the present and the future of what is left of this country (Their future!).

My observation of the whole BBV Bev mess has been a slow awakening. I agree with your take and am glad to see I was justified in my doubts and suspicions. A big light bulb went off for me sometime in Nov. after the Volusia video when she spent HOURS here for a couple of days defending her actions in at least 4, several hundred count threads! My God, I thought! WTF is she doing on a blog when she is supposed to be out on the ground fighting as she says she is !!??

peace and hope,
lc

[fearnobush]

188. Ida, is there any chance in hell, Bev will release this so called evidence

before Jan 6th. Or are these polling tapes just a means to fill her bank account?

[Kelvin Mace]

191. *IF* she actually has anything

I think we can give up on the idea that we'll see it before the 6th.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[fearnobush]

192. Sorry to hear that. I'm sooooo glad I gave her no money.

But I did get flamed a while back defending her. After tonight and hearing Randi's show with her, I'm thinking she's a fraud.

[Kelvin Mace]

194. This is another reason these threads are important

So far, each one I've read manages to bring the truth to another potential Bev victim or two.

Sorry you got flamed.

Is she a fraud? I think she just got too addicted to the money and the fame. Rub money and fame against someone who doesn't have a good grip on her ego and...

*WOOSH*

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Carl Brennan]

198. Ida, You've changed my mind. It has taken

what you wrote here to do that.

It is sad really. I got a sense that Bev Harris was just overextended, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have admitted that to herself and let others know.

I was thinking the same thing as you on the tapes as evidence that she had in Florida.

It's. Maybe she was worried about all the legal convolutions of her role in this, maybe her lawyer was bought off. :tinfoilhat:

I always thought that she should have hired an organizational psychologist because I saw alot of unneccessary tension at BBV. For that reason I never got too involved and kind of knew things were going to end up bad. From experience I knew I couldn't do anything about it. You cannot intervene in such situations and make them better unless you are "hired" to do it professionally.

We all get tired, pissed, and childish at times and maybe even all three at once, but this election is more important than our personal problems and somebody in as vital a role as she was in should have acted more responsibly at least. Bev Harris just sounds like someone who cannot communicate very well with people, but then we all have shortcomings.
:sad:

Thanks for you post Ida. I don't think you "attacked" her at all. And thanks for all of your hard work. It is a real shame. :sad:

[loudsue]

201. Ida, thank you so much for your work in New Hampshire! AND this thread...

I supported Bev every step of the way, until a few weeks ago. I was TERRIBLY distressed over her break with Eloriel and Rox about 2 years ago. I was also TERRIBLY distressed about her break with David Allen @ Plan_9_Pub. But I tried my best to keep my eyes on the prize that Bev and Andy were working towards.

Way before I came to DU, I had discovered the votescam.com site, and in my gut I KNEW that THAT was what was the biggest danger to our democracy. When I first started posting on DU, I used to link the votescam site on 90% of my posts, trying to get someone interested in the issue. Bev was the one that took the bait, and I was "sold" that she was willing to turn over heaven and earth to make the fraud go away.

Even though I have NO investigative or computer skills, I kicked every thread, and begged people to send money to help her out on expenses. For 19 months of that time, I was unemployed, but I sent money....money I didn't have to spare.

When Eloriel started going from thread to thread trying to tell people that donations for BBV and the New Hampshire recount were DIFFERENT, is when I started getting really worried. That was also around the time when Bev was spending an inordinate amount of time on DU, when she was supposed to be coordinating efforts in Florida and around the country on the FOIA requested documents.

Then, Andy got slandered and "fired". I haven't been able to respond to any of the Bev threads until now, because I began feeling so STUPID, so DUPED....embarrassed and ashamed that I had supported her so completely and unconditionally.

I'm a grown woman, and I feel like a naive child. A "groupie" even. And the ONE ISSUE (the voting machine fraud) that has been my most desperate crusade, has been SERIOUSLY harmed by Bev's Qui Tam (sp?) and now these original tapes she found in the trash.... and whatever other Florida evidence she has that could help make a case against the bush mafia.

I'm BEYOND angry. SURELY what she's done in regards to the Florida evidence is illegal, isn't it? And what about the money she got for the FOIA requests? Doesn't she have to produce them since we donated money for her to do just that? To use them, and the information she got in Florida, in the way she said she was going to use them? She kept on saying she was going to "produce" this evidence...go public with it. That's why we were donating, right?

I'm so sorry, for all of us, who spent so much time and effort, and so much of our activism to support her. I'm really devastated.

This has DEFINITELY been a difficult year. I hope and pray that 2005 sees justice done in America. It's been a long dry spell for justice. There has to be a LOT of it coming due to a whole lot of people, and Bev Harris is one of those people.

Ida Briggs & Hedda Foil, thank you both for all you did. We were all so excited here when you caught the recount wave and rode it into New Hampshire.

And Ida, I really do appreciate you starting this thread and giving your account of what happened. This thread has helped me to understand a great many things that I wouldn't have known otherwise.

If Bev Harris doesn't get her evidence (if there really IS any evidence) into the hands of the Kerry lawyers in the next couple of days, she can rot in hell for all I care.

:kick::kick::kick:

[RevCheesehead]

206. Hey, Loudsue, thanks for sharing.

While I was reading your history (that is, support to disbelief to feeling betrayed), I suddenly started wondering: "Isn't this exactly how some of the good republicans will feel about bush, once he is exposed for who he really is?"

Thanks for your honest sharing. It might actually help us in learning how to deal with those disillusioned over this election.

[Andy_Stephenson]

207. I truly feel the worst about you being duped Sue...

you have been the biggest booster of BBV if them all. I have a special place in my heart for you. I am so sorry that I was part of the problem and not the solution. Bev had me duped as well. Perhaps I should have taken the blinders off sooner.

Loudsue :yourock: Don't ever be ashamed your help and kind words kept me going many many times. It is because of people like you I did not throw in the towel on this whole issue. Though I was duped...I have experience I am puttingto good use in Warren County Ohio. Experience that I think will yield results on Monday.

Keep the faith sister. You are to valuable to the movement to loose.

Andy

[Boredtodeath]

208. Then step up to the plate, Andy!

You say you found the discrepancies on those tapes. That YOU were responsible for evaluating them.

Step up to the plate and out what Bev is hiding.

What did you find? Describe the "discrepancies" you say you found. Offer us some proof there is REAL evidence there and most in this thread will go after Bev Harris to release it.

Start a thread, Andy. No crude references, no hints at discrepancies. Out them Give us the proof you say you saw with your own eyes. Tell us in vivid detail what you saw and what can be proven.

[loudsue]

211. Thank you Andy, ...and RevCheesehead. I appreciate the kind words.

I went to bed after I posted that in the middle of the night, and I just got back to the boards.

I'm encouraged that the lessons learned can be put to good use; turning lemons into lemonade, as the saying goes.

Let's keep kicking :kick: and fighting fraud wherever we find it.. whether it's on our side OR theirs, and we'll be better people, and a better country, for our efforts!

:loveya:

Sue


:kick::kick::kick:

[Kelvin Mace]

212. Do not feel stupid

we all got taken. She's quite charming and believable when she wants to be. I pride myself on being a pretty savy fellow and good judge of character, but I wasn't paying attention to a lot of the stuff going on at DU between Bev and Fud, etc, I was working on the book and on other book projects.

I feel pretty stupid myself, but I hope my heart was in the right place.

I did all I could to help make a her book a reality and briong the issue to public attention. All I got for it was libel, slander, threats, big legal bills and a loss of over $100K which has put my business in jeopardy.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org