BREAKING: Conyers to Object to Ohio Electors, Requests Senate Allies

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/123104W.shtml

Conyers to Object to Ohio Electors, Requests Senate Allies
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Report

Thursday 30 December 2004

Representative John Conyers, ranking minority member of the House Judiciary Committee, will object to the counting of the Ohio Electors from the 2004 Presidential election when Congress convenes to ratify those votes on January 6th. In a letter dispatched to every Senator, which will be officially published by his office shortly, Conyers declares that he will be joined in this by several other members of the House. Rep. Conyers is taking this dramatic step because he believes the allegations and evidence of election tampering and fraud render the current slate of Ohio Electors illegitimate.

"As you know," writes Rep. Conyers in his letter, "on January 6, 2005, at 1:00 P.M, the electoral votes for the election of the president are to be opened and counted in a joint session of Congress. I and a number of House Members are planning to object to the counting of the Ohio votes, due to numerous unexplained irregularities in the Ohio presidential vote, many of which appear to violate both federal and state law."

The letter goes on to ask the Senators who receive this letter to join Conyers in objecting to the Ohio Electors. "I am hoping that you will consider joining us in this important effort," writes Conyers, "to debate and highlight the problems in Ohio which disenfranchised innumerable voters. I will shortly forward you a draft report itemizing and analyzing the many irregularities we have come across as part of our hearings and investigation into the Ohio presidential election."

There are expected to be high level meetings with high ranking Democratic officials next week to coordinate a concerted lobbying effort to convince Senators to challenge the vote. The Green Party and David Cobb, as has been true all along, will be centrally involved in this process, as will Rev. Jackson.

...more, including the rest of the letter and specific Senatorial targets...

[Walt Starr]

1. Won't mean a thing if no Senator will stand up

and since Kerry won't stand up, I doubt that anybody will stand up.

[KoKo]

15. Byrd.....

[CottonBear]

Byrd is the only one who would do it. n/t

[Walt Starr]

62. I'd bet real money Byrd will never object

REAL money.

[KoKo]

Gack! I'd bet you but have given it all to candidates....sorry...

How about a :-)?

[righteous1]

169. I agree, I can think of several others before Byrd, he is a strict

Senatorial conformist, he would likely be offended by such an action

[pacalo]

200. Walt, what do you think of Frank Lautenberg?

Remember his bold, in-your-face Chickenhawk presentation on the Senate floor.

As I recall, he won't be running for re-election & he doesn't have to worry about losing any political support.

[txindy]

325. At least you're consistent

It wasn't too long ago you were making bets that there was no fraud involved in the election, that we just flat-out lost. Didn't one of those bets involve socks? Or was it a hat?

You've come a long way. With only a week to go, go for it all and have faith. You just never know. The world may just surprise you, yet.

[mgr]

160. Unlikely

Old guard southern democrat carry over from the segregation days, not likely to carry a civil rights torch.

Mike

[Cheswick2.0]

191. I don't think you have been paying much attention to Byrd

He has been doing plenty of standing up for civil rights since bush inc stole the white-house in 2000.

[KoKo]

227. Sen. Byrd has gotten "lost in the shuffle" LOL's....I have his book

and his speeches on the Senate Floor. HE KNEW! He KNOWS!

[arcos]

290. But sadly, he also voted for FMA... n/t

[saracat]

16. Grateful for the effort are you? Thank you Mr. Conyers. You are a hero!

[Walt Starr]

58. The only people who seem to have the guts to call election theft what it

really is are those brave members of the Congressional Black Caucus.

[roseBudd]

102. Byrd is the only senator who truly lives by WTF

If anybody has the cajones it's Byrd. In 2000 he did not realize what a disaster GWB would be.

[Peace Patriot]

241. Byrd voted against the Iraq War!

He was furious about it. He said it violated the Constitution! He's brilliant. He's a great guy! He hates BushCons! He is the perfect person to do this!

[peacetalksforall]

302. Many times, Byrd was out there saying it like it was, and Paul Wellstone

was at his side. They took turns in some of the run-the-clock events.

[Chimpanzee]

336. It wouldn't surprise my if Sen. Byrd stands with the CBC

He doesn't have much to lose and probably still feel he has some penance to pay for his KKK days.

[flyarm]

360. AND BYRD.....

takes every opportunity to do a speech on how corrupt this * administration is...and do remember Byrd carries his little constitution book with him to every interview...he is like a living breathing, walking constitution!! This is a senior man who truely loves that document, and he does need to clear his legacy on civil rights..how better than this to erase all the nasty past civil rights personal history of his?? Its Byrds time to walk the walk..
if Byrd didnt care about his legacy...he wouldn't have been doing as many speeches as he has done the past 2 years...he cares ...yes he cares about his legacy.....call his office...beg!!
fly

[mod mom]

17. have faith brother!

[merh]

24. You know, no one could ever accuse you of being an optimist.

:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

35. I lived through the past four years

Optimism is waaaaay overrated.

[WilliamPitt]

88. So have I

and I disagree.

[hootinholler]

279. Me too...

Unemployed for nearly one of them.

I'm with Will.

-Hoot

[Turn CO Blue]

129. All human wisdom

All human wisdom is summed up in two words - wait and hope.
--Alexander Dumas

[emulatorloo]

29. IT CAN"T BE KERRY for many many reasons

one of which that it would seem too self-serving and poor loser-ish.

and if you would think about it you would realize that it has to be Senators other than Kerry, and preferably w a few Republicans thrown in.

[Walt Starr]

49. But Kerry DID concede

and that one move tells the rest of the democratic Senators that they should not stand up.

I sincerely believe that when the time comes, not a single Senator will object. Not one.

[emulatorloo]

76. Cool - it will be fun when you are wrong. . .

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

91. There is absolutely nothing but pessimism in me

after the past four years.

[LittleClarkie]

156. Really?

You hide it so well.

[GetTheRightVote]

226. I hope the Senators bring back your faith as well as my own

:kick:

[madison2000]

264. Kerry did not have the information on Nov 3

that all these Senators will have on January 6.

[whitney]

137. Bush or Cheney wouldn't hesitate to be that senator

If the situation were reversed, and Bush or Cheney were the senators, they wouldn't hesitate to object. That's why republicans control every branch of government and why they will continue to expand their power and control, because the democrats won't start acting like republicans and stop worrying about how they "appear", whether it is self-serving or poor loser-ish.

I was one who admired and adored Kerry, because of who he was, not because he was ABB. I can't comprehend why all the democrats keep broadcasting that the election was fair and Bush won. If they didn't address electronic ballots and tabulations before the election, and won't do it after, democrats will never regain power, which means they will never regain the ability to help people through stem cell research, health insurance, etc. etc. Kerry said he'd fight for every vote, I truly don't understand why he and Edwards along with the other democrats aren't doing it. For that matter, I don't understand why the voters aren't protesting themselves, in huge numbers. How strong will the protest be on Jan 6th, and why wasn't it organized right after the election like in the Ukraine?

Kerry and Edwards- we fought for you in GOTV, now it is time for you to fight for us and make those votes count! Where are you??

[emulatorloo]

213. The Right Wing has an attack media ready and waiting

to belittle smear and villify.

[pacalo]

248. I'd love to see this scenario...

On January 6th, there will be an outpouring of Democratic senators, each giving their 5 minute spiels of the evidence of election fraud provided by Rep. Conyers. As they speak, Kerry is in Iraq to thank the troops for serving their country, something that WhatsHisName has never done (beyond making an appearance in an Iraqi airport hangar, plastic turkey in hand to a selected few). I can't help thinking there's something strategic about the timing of Kerry's visit to Iraq. It would be very awkward for Kerry to be on the Senate floor as his colleagues are contesting the Ohio votes.

[EFerrari]

30. Every step means something. That Conyers took this one means

something. Think snowball. No. Think, critical mass.

[Walt Starr]

41. The Congressional Black Caucus did the same thing in 2000

Look at how far that got us.

[KoKo]

60. We didn't have activists on Dem Side then....nor, F9/11 which exposed

the cowardice of our Party.

(I understand your pessimism, though)....I still say: Byrd.

[Walt Starr]

74. How much courage have you seen in the party since F9/11?

Yeah, even less than they had in 2000.

[KoKo]

111. Do you remember Senator Byrd on the Senate floor during the Iraq Res?

That man will not allow this to go uncontested. He stood up for us...He had the courage. You were here then. You know...

But, I don't want to beat a dead horse here...

[Walt Starr]

117. I remember

I also do not believe he will do this.

[KoKo]

130. Of course, Chimp's poll numbers contributed and may help us even

more unless he plots a Tsunami for the East Coast in the next week...

[mod mom]

154. His MSM has already implied one may b on the way

RULE by FEAR is that man's motto!

[KoKo]

235. huh??? "Rule by Fear?" n/t

[CoffeeCat]

331. LOL! Koko...

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it, tonight!

I wouldn't put it past Chimpy.

I'm sure he knows a Fox weather bimbo who can forecast some kind of east-coast, weather disaster--which will get everyone's attention.

[senseandsensibility]

135. I heard the Byrd speech live

that you're talking about. He brought me to tears as I listened to it on the radio during my lunchbreak. He stood up for us when no one else would, and I will always be grateful to him for that. Glad someone else remembers.:)

[whometense]

252. I heard that speech too -

saw it on C-Span, in fact, and it brought me to tears as well. I was so grateful I wrote him a thank-you letter. He's a man of strong principle. If he believed there was fraud, I think he would stand up.

[cosmicdot]

216. in one speech, he spoke of "The Arrogance of Power"

I wrote and asked him to stand with Cong. Conyers.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

"The Arrogance of Power"

"I believe in this beautiful country. I have studied its roots and gloried in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution. I have marveled at the wisdom of its founders and framers. Generation after generation of Americans has understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great Republic. I have been inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their strength.

"But, today I weep for my country. I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.

"Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand obedience or threaten recrimination. Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves. We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption which is understood by few and feared by many. We say that the United States has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of the globe which might be suspect in the war on terrorism. We assert that right without the sanction of any international body. As a result, the world has become a much more dangerous place.

"We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance. We treat UN Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their heads from the carpet. Valuable alliances are split. After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe."

- Sen. Robert Byrd, 3/19/2003

[President Kerry]

224. What a breath-taking speech.

Thank you Senator, for doing so much for this country. You have earned my lifelong respect and admiration, Sir!

[WilliamPitt]

75. But did they do a full court press beforehand

to get help? No.

Also recall that Gore asked the Senators not to sign on. Diferent this time.

But if you want to be down about it, get down with your bad self.

[Walt Starr]

81. I'll be a happy camper when you can name a Senator

just one.

Sorry Will, four years of "this is the one that will get him bush is toast" does not allow for any optimism whatsoever.

[WilliamPitt]

No doubt

I want to see a Senator, too.

But this is good news, and step towards getting that Senator.

[Walt Starr]

105. True enough

but it seems getting Congresspersons with the guts is the easy part.

[saracat]

106. Some people would try the patience of a saint.

You are correct Will. And I ,for one, am happy about it!

[saracat]

89. Why don't you help get a senator then, instead of being all whiney?

[Walt Starr]

99. I've written to them all

even the Republicans because the Republicans seem to have more guts than the Democrats.

[saracat]

Well, then, write again, and stop

trying to discourage the rest of us from doing something. You seem like you are telling Conyers "why, bother?"

[IndyPriest]

97. Full court press! YESSSSSS!!

This is SERIOUSLY big news!

[madison2000]

269. Russ Feingold Russ Feingold Russ Feingold Russ Feingold

I think he will step forward, but it wouldn't hurt for him to get a lot of out of state letters too.

[loritooker]

328. Used to live in WI--I'm writing to Russ!

[wakemewhenitsover]

188. Could you please elaborate re. 2000?

I can't fathom what Gore felt he had to lose....

[Wilms]

349. 9/11

I wonder if he was threatened.

Reports are Chimp, Jeb, FL Nat., Guard, and Secret Service were all acting antsy in the days prior to Reischtag II.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

218. Irony!

"Also recall that Gore asked the Senators not to sign on. Diferent this time."

Indeed, Gore asked them not to sign on to the IWR too...

[Amaryllis]

286. And were there millions of us writing our senators, asking them to stand,

like there is now? or millions of people on the internet, passing info around that is hot off the press, like Will's article here? I just sent it out to my email list with lots of people who have their own email lists and yahoo groups, and within hours millions of people will have read it. And most of you are doing the same. And we have all written our senators and asked them to stand. And this time they know that we know how it works because we have all seen F-911 and they know it will look really bad after Conyers has publically asked them to stand, if they give the message to the people that the kind of discrimination and voter suppression that happened in this election is acceptable to them.

By the way, do we need to be contacting C-span and asking them to televise it? Does anyone know if it's a given that they will?

I also told my senator that millions of us will be watching on C-span to see what kind of message they present to the American public and the world about whether the level of discrimination and votet suppression that happened is acceptable to them.

[TexasBushwhacker]

309. The Supremes were already involved at this point ....

last time. Gore knew that even if a Senator signed on with the CBC that he was doomed because of the SC. Also, because of F 9/11, we know what happened with the CBC and we won't tolerate it again. Funny, I just watched F 9/11 again the other night, and there was Tom Daschle, now out of a job, talking about letting the healing begin. If we'd only known .....

[EFerrari]

85. It got us here. We're paying attention, taking names and kicking

MSM butt.

No, it's not a quick fix. We're miles ahead of where we were in 2000. I know it's hard to see it that way. But, think it all the way through.

[Chimpanzee]

338. I wonder if Conyers would stick his neck out like that

unless he'd had conversations with some senators and was pretty sure they would stand up.

[NewJeffCT]

107. Can John Edwards do it?

he is retiring after all...

[Walt Starr]

116. Nope, he's out of office on the 3rd

and the tally takes place on the 6th.

It's really too bad, Edwards would have benn the perfect person for it.

[Withywindle]

139. No, he'd have been the WORST..

Both a "Sore Loserman" AND an easily dismissable lame duck, clearly (in the eyes of Repubs) making a desperate Hail Mary pass to re-animate his dead career. Too very, very spinnable. That'd give him a clout rating in the negative integers.

[housewolf]

146. Jeffords

the Independent from blue-states New England. He could do it.

[whalerider55]

162. sweet n/t

[KerryReallyWon]

282. I agree, Jeffords should be one of several...

[Pacifist Patriot]

295. Someone give me a zip code in his state and I've got a letter ready.

[snowbird42]

275. Senators e-mail list?

I need it for another Blog

What if the number of letters were overwhelming.

This is our chance, our last chance.

[Pacifist Patriot]

296. You can go to...

http://www.senate.gov but if you have appropriate zip codes you can also use http://thedeanpeople.com/

[genius]

332. Good for Conyers. Let's call Byrd, Durbin and Boxer.

[Streetdoc270]

2. well we know that some congresspeople will object

Just like in 2000.... when you get the name of ONE Senator who will stand with them than I will be excited

[LiberalEsto]

3. Woohoo! Go Conyers!

Now if only we can find one Senator with guts....

[zapped 1]

4. sweet...

..should get the MSM momentum rolling.

[New Earth]

5. that's not really big news (didn't we already know this?)

but it's nice to know it's now official.

[WilliamPitt]

10. I said smile

not freak out and jump for joy.

:)

[New Earth]

31. lol

dammit. i know. fine. pfft!

i'll be back later :hi:

[KaliTracy]

32. LOL n/t

[Not a Sheep]

47. A bit melodramatic William (once again). Next time skip the bs & just post

[mourningdove92]

59. speak for yourself....I kind of like the suspense.

Thanks Will!!! You Rock.

[salin]

69. think the suspence rather broke the mood in the forum

that was getting a bit tight, stressed and frazzled.

[whalerider55]

155. a bit terse, sheepie

next time, skip the post and just BS.

whalerider55

[elizm]

182. Speak for yourself plesase...I anxiously await...

every little tease he puts out there. A little bit of fun in the midst of so much stress makes things brighter...for some of us anyway! Thanks Will!!:hi:

[TrustingDog]

51. good. I was hoping you we'ren't choreographing another DU crazed...

chicken dance.

refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh
refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh refresh

heh.

[WilliamPitt]

121. Me too

That was a long, hard, awful day.

[KoKo]

251. "Cigarette's and Whiskey" always get's one down...n/t

[WilliamPitt]

256. I don't like whiskey

Scotch, please. ;)

And, no, I went nowhere near anything but coffee that day. Bleh.

[hootinholler]

285. You gonna be in DC on the 6th?

I'll bring a half liter of MacClellan.

-Hoot

[WilliamPitt]

298. Indeed

Made flight and hotel arrangements today.

[Darknyte7]

6. TIGHT!

:-)

Thanks man. Have a safe and happy holiday weekend.

[mod mom]

Ya Hooo Thanks will-sound good to me

I love Conyers!

[salin]

7. BIG SMILE!

Right on!

[Not_Giving_Up]

8. I'm smiling!!!!

Woohooo!!!!!!!!!

Will the MSM say anything about it??

[crispini]

9. One more step. :)

I like the list of Senators. Now we know exactly who to pester.

S M I L E

[cyberpj]

21. absafreakinlutely

And I've been working on Biden (my own personal senator) since November 3rd so he knows me by now.

Soon as I find out when he's in town, I'm going in person.

PJ

[AllegroRondo]

11. Im sorry to live in Missouri

where both of our senators are idiots.

Who can I write to that might actually DO something?

[WilliamPitt]

27. Check the last paragraph of the article

[cyberpj]

43. Posting Info for DU posterity -

The Senators who shall receive the greatest focus from Conyers in this matter are Biden, Bingaman, Boxer, Byrd, Clinton, Conrad, Corzine, Dodd, Dorgan, Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Inyoue, Jeffords, Kennedy, Kerry, Lautenberg, Leahy, Levin, Lieberman, Mikulski, Nelson (FL), Jack Reed, Harry Reid, Rockefeller, Sarbanes, Stabenow, Wyden and Obama.

[mod mom]

72. I hear you-OH both sen gov and our ever popular sos

it makes you sick.

[Goldeneye]

12. Great News!

Thanks. Go Conyers, Go Conyers. This means he is convinced that the election was ripped off! If he's convinced certainly some senators will be too.

Will, do you think a senator is going to step up?

[Patsy Stone]

34. Conyers for President 2008

OK, I'm smiling again.
Wow, manic much?

:)

[mod mom]

86. Amen! I sent Conyers aid the post with the CA Theatre

Marqee and I received a thanks back which means Conyers saw it. I hope everyone hear will write to him and let him know how thankful we are for his efforts. The * Slime Machine has already started attacks on this brave man. I told him to please stay the course.

[Patsy Stone]

164. Excellent Work!

I will write him now. :)

[KittyWampus]

13. Senators- Do The Right Thing

[EFerrari]

14. Okay, now BLAST the media with this AND yr Senators! awesome

[Democrats_win]

18. At least this will bring attention to the Ohio mess

at best: we can prove the election was a total fraud and only a quarter of America voted for him.

[senseandsensibility]

19. I suppose I'm naive

but I find it difficult to believe that No senator will respond to this appeal! Not Kennedy, not Byrd, not Boxer, not Feingold, NOBODY?? Our party just can't be that wimpy!

[housewolf]

183. Jeffords can do it!

He's independent. He walked away from the Republican Party. He's not controlled by the Dems. He could do it!

[senseandsensibility]

225. ok

I'll e-mail him, too!

[President Kerry]

228. WTF do we have to lose???

This is common sense, republicans should want it too. It isn't about Bush or Kerry, it's about fair elections!!!

[Generator]

20. You rock!

Thank you thank you thank you!

John Conyers you rock beyond rocking.

Even if it goes nowhere-it does not matter-in the end-speaking your truth and not backing down in the face of overwhelming power and marginalization is what courage and having a soul is all about.

Tears of happiness.

[KyndCulture]

And this is breaking news because??

We've been there done that got the shitty t shirt... Give me a Senator that definitely says they are standing up or quit posting these teases.

[WilliamPitt]

37. Whatever

[Goldeneye]

50. Its worthy news Will

and we love surprises like this. Thank you.

[Not a Sheep]

61. Sorry but it was pointless to proceed this with the "get ready" post. /eom

[NickiWitch]

82. It makes it official...

besides, why do you have to shit in Will's Wheaties? He's doing us a favor by keeping us informed and always the first to know.

For this, I thank him.

Peace

[Not a Sheep]

103. Posting get ready to smile makes it somehow "official"... hmmm /eom

[NickiWitch]

114. No...and quit with the sarcasm.

Conyers letter makes it official. Quit being so grumpy. It's good news! :)

[lostnfound]

100. Not pointless to many of his friends here..

who are happy to be alerted when something is coming out.

[cyberpj]

299. Agreed. Be glad and join in the fun or ignore, but don't judge.

Live and let live.

[housewolf]

189. But it WAS a lot of fun.... n/t

[AmerDem]

233. really?

what the fuck do you have to contribute?

[EFerrari]

101. Remember you said, it's not about Kerry and I said, you're wrong?

I take it back. It's not about Kerry. And to prove it, I'm going to soak my progressive @ss off at our second vigil tomorrow night here at Ocean Beach.

Is that enthusiasm enough <g>?

What a piece of work is man -- WS

[davidgmills]

214. What about the "how noble in reason

how infinite in faculties in form and moving how express and admirable" part?

All the more reason to assume Bush is not human.

[EFerrari]

217. lol ! Well, let's see who the election will light on

[Left coast liberal]

258. Fabulous news, Will! Thanks for all you do.

Don't let the bummers get you down. We're all stressed to the snapping point, I guess. No harm in a little devil's advocate.

Keep up the terrific work!

Cheers!

:hi:

[Woo]

109. I agree...

You can say 'whatever' if you want -- but I think there are going to be A LOT of disappointed people come Jan 6th -- just post the friggin news and stop with the big send ups, it certainly isn't necessary with the roller coaster we've been on for the last several weeks, unless people like being temporarily bi-polar.


BUT should a Senator say they're standing up with the House members between now and Jan 6th - THAT will be interesting and is worthy of the big build up -- I shall gladly retract(with a huge smile) my opinion stated above.

Until then... SMILE? you didn't even come close, but I'll pass the info on.

[Not a Sheep]

157. My point exactly... Why be cryptic and make people wait 15 minutes? ...

Woo: "...just post the friggin news and stop with the big send ups.."


Exactly!

[troubleinwinter]

176. Well, I put off my trip to the store a bit, and was glad I did.

Nobody made you bother with it if you didn't want to. You can turn your computer off, if you prefer, and find the news later.

[Chimpanzee]

343. Man, you people are such ingrates!

If you don't like reading Will's posts set him on ignore, but a lot of us greatly appreciate his contributions. What have you done in comparison except nitpick? And nobody that is informed is going to be dissapointed to see the elecion challenged. If it turns out there is no senator, well, it won't be much of a shock, will it. If there is a senator, this will be the biggest news we've seem in along time!

[Turn CO Blue]

153. Who is there with you...

at your computer, forcing you to click on these threads? You can clearly read the subject line and see who the author is, n'est ce pas?

We won't know who stands up until January 6th. No Senator would tip their hand to the media and BushCo ahead of that date...

[pacalo]

276. Bravo!

Who is there with you at your computer, forcing you to click on these threads? You can clearly read the subject line and see who the author is, n'est ce pas?

To all the Debbie Downers: Do us a favor & please skip the next thread of good news. Put Will on "ignore", why don't you?

[AmerDem]

230. patience Frances

we can't hand you the world on a platter. Keeping sucking your thumb until the 6th.

[Not a Sheep]

22. BIG NEWS? BIG DEAL. We already assumed this didn't we?

So what? We expected this. Even if a Senator challenges it's not going to change a damn thing.

[WilliamPitt]

33. There was nothing certain about it

and the concerted effort to get a Senator on board is a big deal.

[saracat]

67. Thank you Will. And this is Big News.

Some people don't know how to "smile" :)

[Not a Sheep]

73. Did we doubt there was an effort to get a Senator? Ahh, no. /eom

[WilliamPitt]

80. Did we know a House member would officially object

and announce the intention to do so beforehand, and prepare a frontal assault on the Senate?

No.

[Not a Sheep]

92. So we get both objections? It goes nowhere. Nothing changes. /eom

[whalerider55]

161. it goes somewhere...

the results may not change, but...
since it invkes the constitution, it will be covered by all the media, live as it happens.

so, they have to steal the election in broad daylight, with the MSM and the country watching- in the Congress, just give the mike to Conyers for two hours, in the Senate to Byrd.

and think of what a powerful lesson in democracy it will be for the youth.

i worry about the youth. they're gonna grow up, and the bill will come due.

whalerider55

[Fiendish Thingy]

265. the outcome of who is inaugurated may not change...

But this is the only way to get the MSM/CM to cover this issue, and it will officially put a second "*" after his name...and it could be the beginning of Bush's "Watergate".

[hootinholler]

288. Wow, someone named not a sheep said that?

I'm sorry, but when this happens, it will have to be reported in hte mainstream evening news.

I'd like a copy of the supporting brief when it is sent. That should be a good read.

-Hoot

[Chimpanzee]

341. I'm so sick of you whinny crybaby party-poopers!

[MelissaB]

94. I'm amazed he did this beforehand.

Conyers never ceased to amaze me.

[MajorFlaw]

304. No, you are right, this is a new twist. Conyers has given

himself and us a week to get at least one senator on board. Whatever the result, this is important.

[pixelthief]

124. That attitude will get you nowhere

Sheep, why don't you live up to your name and quit this defeatist crap?

Conyers contesting was far from certain before. This means he has seen enough evidence that he feels comfortable putting his reputation on the line to contest this farce. This is great news.

Thanks, Will, for the scoop.

[Not a Sheep]

150. You mean my realistic attitude? (more)....

Defeatist? No, I'm a realist.

I assumed that we would get at least one member of the House and most likely a Senator. The bottom line is... get ready to frown .....................................................................................................................................................IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.


Bush is inaugurated on the 20th and in the following years we might see some election reform.

[KaliTracy]

281. Accountabilty

...how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
--B. Dylan

....oh wait... it doesn't matter.... nothing changes. sure... * may be inagurated.... but if the word goes out, really out, that things weren't fair and equitable, don't you think Congress and hopefully one (or more) Senator standing up for that will cause a ripple effect of questioning this election? I do. And with other voices, the ripple will grow. People need to wake up, and if a Representative and a Senator evoke their rights to contest this election, then it won't merely be about "37" people in Ohio who have a lawsuit against the election -- it will be our Government Officials standing upfor us. Even if it doesn't get * out of there right away, it's a Start.

In my opinion this is not about changing the election so much as it is making people accountable.... this is about democracy.

[Chimpanzee]

342. You're a loser!

How many times in our history has this happened? This will be BIG NEWS and it WILL make a difference. Now go get a magnifying glass and burn some ants!

[Turn CO Blue]

So what, Debbie Downer

So what? We expected this. The pragmatists always challenge the optimists.

[New Earth]

250. We who?

[pacalo]

263. Self-pity. Drowning in sorrow. Nothing constructive to contribute.

Is that really your choice?

Edited to add: (This is in response to #92, not "original message")

I appreciate Will's great work!

[garybeck]

23. IT'S A SHAME that Conyer's letter only references OHIO

I was worried about this.

if he only contests Ohio, that means Diebold, Clint Curtis, Wendy Orange, and Bev Harris, all will not be mentioned in the discussion.

It is good he's going to contest.

But we have one week to convince him to contest other states. This is HUGE.

[zapped 1]

44. absolutely, Gary eom

[KaliTracy]

96. it's the Ohio electors that will determine the outcome of the presidency

which is why the focus is there -- There have been hearings on machines which talked about many states -- (with representatives from the machine companies) -- there have been recount efforts in other states. Ohio is the most blatent because of Blackwells shenanigans and because it was the last state to report.

I agree that the entire nation should be looked at, but how likely is that? Each State needs to have a representative like Conyers to fight for them.... he can't do it all.

[KaliTracy]

108. Self Deleted (Moved

[enough already]

249. If this is about the Ohio electors....

...and the objective therefore is to get Kerry inaugurated, why wouldn't Kerry be the one to lead the objection? I just don't understand why he continues to remain silent on this. Look, in the end, this is likely ALL going to come down to Kerry. If Kerry won't openly protest this fraud, there isn't another Senator who is going stick his/her neck on the line for him. It's that simple.

[President Kerry]

234. his reputation's on the line.

It can't be wishy-washy stuff that could be attributed to human error or whatever. He obviously has enough stuff on Ohio to make it stand up to the inevitable spin and dirt RW scumbags will drag him through. More power to him. Thank you Mr. Conyers!

[Amaryllis]

311. Yes! Yes! But has he been investigating other states? THere were some

FL people at the first forum...

[KaliTracy]

25. I am smiling.... I think it is a very smart move for hiim to publically

demand a look at our electoral process.

[cyberpj]

300. Agreed. I think they thought he was too small to be heard, too.

[gotitans2]

26. We must have a senator.

And I fear the "sore loser" label will scare them all off. MSM will ignore this, unfortunately.

[salin]

38. One has to step forward...

let the shame of the moment from the MMoore movie resonate with them. ONE just has to step forward.. but who?

[KaliTracy]

so write your senators!

keep up the pressure! Remind them they work for the Constituents.... and that they can be unelected next time around!

[salin]

46. niether of my senators

are being targeted... don't think Evan Bayh is much up for the job. Just a long shot guess...

[KaliTracy]

79. I wrote most of the senate from web access

yes, I got letters back saying they only respond to their own constituents -- but when you frame this as for the good of all, and the good of DEMOCRACY they can't really ignore it. What have you got to lose?

[tsuki]

Do you think for once, just once, they could all agree? Or maybe

just the majority? They went along with the Repubs in 2000. Did it save their seats?

[intheflow]

144. "They went along with the Repubs in 2000. Did it save their seats?"

This is an excellent talking point and should be included in corresondence with the Senators.

Thanks.

[berni_mccoy]

28. If he's successful...

in getting senators to sign on, the most likely outcome is that Bush will still win the election. However, he will win without any EV's from Ohio and this may finally cause some serious change to take place in our election process AND more importantly, piss off enough Ohioans to get rid of their corrupt government.

[PaganPreacher]

187. A Bush win is the only possible outcome. Sorry.

Recycled, 'cuz I'm an environmentally conscious guy:

"If one senator and one representative (or 100 senators and 435 representatives, you get the picture) challenge a particular state's electors, both houses have 2 hours for all members of that house to debate, then vote to accept or refuse the challenge.

If a simple majority of each house vote to accept the challenge, that state's electors are removed from the vote totals. If the challengers cannot raise a simple majority to support their challenge, then the electors are included in the tally.

The standard for accepting or rejecting Ohio's electoral votes is, whether the electors were certified in accordance with Ohio state law in force on the day of the election. In absence of a ruling (not suspicions, allegations, or pending civil litigation) that the electoral votes in Ohio were not certified in acordance with existing state law, there is no way that 51 Senators and 218 Representives will vote to disenfranchise Ohio's voters.

However, if a meteor hit Washington, and kept all of the Republicans from going in to work, and the Democrats voted to reject Ohio's 20 electoral votes, the final count would be: Bush 266, Kerry 252.

Result: W is re-elected."


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[seito]

206. This is about a hell of a lot more than Kerry

I do not understand the perception that people have- If we can't get * out of office NOW, then this is all for nothing. Think about it. * has to be STOPPED. He has to be exposed. Everything that is done to expose him for the lyin, cheatin fraud that he is is gravy.

I for one would love a long and painful public unraveling of his fraudulency leading to a gruesome impeachment, followed by an international war crimes tribuneral.

Oh my, I had better stop, I am feeling all warm and fuzzy inside :)

[pacalo]

358. "W is re-elected." Pagan Preacher, your slip is showing.

"W" was NEVER elected.

[PaganPreacher]

363. No slip, nightmare. Precision in language.

W was elected in accordance with the Constitution and applicable federal and state laws in 2000. To use the term "re-elected" is merely speaking precisely.

I know it's easier for you to think that Gore was the "lost Dauphin" of the 2000 election than to accept that he fought hard and lost, but even Al Gore himself isn't saying it.

Happy New Year, by the way!

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[Old and In the Way]

36. That puts a smile on my face...........

How about EVERY Democratic Senator stand up for the majority of Americans whose vote on 11/2 was stolen?

This ought to be the litmus test. Time to make a stand together Senators....or we'll all be hanging seperately.

[whometense]

255. Love your idea.

Seems to me it would almost be easier to do it that way than just look for one to sign on. Strength in numbers, and also would make a more emphatic point.

[bleever]

267. Reframe it: expect them ALL to object. We'll be watching to see

who does not stand up.

And of course this is a big step because we have a concerted effort to recruit senators from a Congressman, with all the evidence he believes they'll be most receptive to!

And for people who want to fixate on ultimate failure, can't there be a separate forum for that?

:)

[Broken Acorn]

39. This is great news

If no Democratic Senators stand up to this atrocity, they ALL deserve to lose their seats next election.

If they can't fight for us now, we have no tomorrow.

[me b zola]

202. Agreed. I am hoping that the facts sheet that Conyers

sends to the Senate roundly paints the picture not only of the 11/2 fraud, but the subsequent stonewalling of everyone in elected office in Ohio. In other words, if they don't stand up now, there will never again be a fair election=they could be the next to fall victim to the methods used against Kerry/Edwards, and the American people.

[Amaryllis]

318. If they don't stand now, they all WILL lose their seats because the

elections will be rigged beyond repair if they let this slide.

[diddlysquat]

40. SMILE!!

[seito]

209. Grin

:)

[NickiWitch]

42. Barack Obama!

How sweet would that be!!??!!

:bounce:

[Walt Starr]

70. No way

it would end his career, both in politics and in the law.

[NickiWitch]

90. I thought of that....

but it would still be the coolest thing ever! The new guy on the block standing up for what's right? I agree with you, though. It would put a damper on his career.

[Walt Starr]

112. If it's anybody, it has to be somebody whose been around for a while

Durbin can't, he's up for re-election in two years and it would be a bad mark.

Best bet is a senator whojust won re-election from a Blue state.

[NickiWitch]

120. I totally agree

It will probably someone who's ready to step down and they want to go out with a bang. I can't wait to see who.

[Cheswick2.0]

205. I believe Robert Byrd said he is not running again in 2006

He might be the one.

[President Kerry]

238. you just broke my friggin heart!!!!

who the hell could possibly replace him??

[IndyPriest]

138. Walt, you're beginning to crack! :-) n/t

[Withywindle]

152. Would it be a bad mark for Durbin?

I'm not so sure. Maybe you're right, but I think there might be quite a few people here who would applaud it very strongly.

The IL Republicans self-destructed pretty spectacularly this year. They might be able to mount a convincing challenge against Durbin in two years...or they sure might not.

[Walt Starr]

163. Durbin doing it could ressurect the Illinois Republicans in '06

You need a much bluer state.

[Withywindle]

170. Unfortunately,

That really starts to whittle our options down.

[President Kerry]

237. that'd be asking to be labeled a partisan.

it can't just be Teddy Kennedy and a couple others. it needs to have wide support. A real test of courage

[mgr]

165. Can't

Obama is not a member of the congress that will decide.

Mike

[Withywindle]

177. Yes he is

The new Senate starts on Jan 3rd. This is the 6th.

But the main reason he can't is that he's a complete newbie. Right now he has celebrity, not clout--not at all the same.

[Chimpanzee]

344. He doesn't need clout - all he has to do is speak up

not that I think he will.

[saracat]

45. Wonder what he used to target the Senators? Leahy already said he won't

contest!

[Miami Liberal]

48. Thanks Will

Conyers is amazing, I'm so glad he's never given up.

[electric-eye]

52. If there were any true patriots left in the repub party...

how great it would be to have a repub Senator join the challenge.

mccain?

I'm dreaming, I know.

Hell, I'll be happy if one our Democratic Senators actually has the guts to stand up and be heard on this.

Lot of us watching this time...

[saracat]

78. I think Chaffee of RI is a possibility.

He didn't vote for Bush, remember?

[Kota]

53. Yes! I hope this time its different

[troubleinwinter]

54. This is wonderful news.

..."he believes the allegations and evidence of election tampering and fraud render the current slate of Ohio Electors illegitimate."

And that he says several House members will join him.

"many of which appear to violate both federal and state law." Yer ass is grass, Blackwell.


HEY WILL!- I did appreciate your explanation the other day about why no senator would come out in advance of 1/6, as they'd just get hammered. I can see that.

[IndyPriest]

55. "a draft report itemizing and analyzing the many irregularities"

Geez, he may have to send this by truck!

[Patsy Stone]

65. LOL! n/t

[teddyk23]

68. with appendices it will likely exceed 1,000 pgs

[housewolf]

56. This is good!

I'm Smiling!!

:P :P :P

What's great is to know some other congress people are in too, that Jackson & Cobb are helping, the names of the senators being targeted, and that "high level meetings" will be held to develop a strategy.

Now we can bliz those senators offices for the next week with email and phone calls.

[Chimpanzee]

345. Wouldn't it be a given that JJ Jr. will stand with Conyers?

[dogindia]

57. certainly smiling material.

[KaliTracy]

63. For those just waiting for a Senator to step up -- write one, write

two -- write the whole friggin' Senate... this isn't going to happen just by us sitting back and wishing it to -- the action has to come from within as well as from good men and women who are fighting for us


what are you waiting for -- have you written your letter yet? (only slightly Exasperated here...)

Remember to Write it with a Smile (and if you call -- be sure to Talk calmly with a smile!)

[IndyPriest]

118. Let's divide the work. I've got Levin and Stabenow. n/t

[KaliTracy]

133. Draft a letter about the integrity of the vote

what America is "fighting" for in other countries that the senators voted for, and how they aren't analyzing the questionable practices here in the US of A. Etc., etc.... Then send it to all that you can. They won't respond if it's not your state (write your state and the "targeted" people first) -- but hundreds of letters that are not form letters make a big difference --- Calling could work too, though because of the holiday, might be hard to get through....

[AwakeAtLast]

64. Thank you for posting!

Proof that this issue is not as buried as Republicans would like us to believe! I will be watching as this unfolds. Thanks for the advance information!

[MelissaB]

66. This is wonderful!

I'm glad he has the guts to do this. Many don't and won't.

[Withywindle]

71. Thank you SO MUCH Will...

...it's confirmation. Gives folks a lot more concrete material to write their Senators with. Very important!

:) :) :) :)

[AmerDem]

77. Great News

Thanks for the report!:toast:

[SnoopDog]

83. Put it all together...

Ranking Minority House Judicial Leader Conyers stating publicly he is contesting the election and asking for Senators.

This is way cool....

[quispquake]

84. A question...(probably stupid)

Are the senators the recently elected ones, or from the past group? I ask this because what would Edwards have to lose???

[Withywindle]

104. Recently elected, so...

Edwards is out, sadly.

[RaulVB]

87. This is very, very important!!!

"High level talks"...endless possibilities!

I thank Mr. Conyers for doing the right thing and I thank you Will, for working so hard.

[housewolf]

93. I think Jeffords

He's from that great independent New England state, had the courage to walk away from the Republican Party, isn't under the Dems control either.

It would be great if a Dem would do it but Jeffords has the independence to do it.

[delphine]

159. Or Leahy, ('member, Cheney told him "Go Fuck Yourself"?)

Leahy today said that we spend $35 million on Iraq before breakfast (in his blast at bush for being such a cheap little turd in the wake of 120 million victims . . .)

And of course, Dick (who told Leahy "Go Fuck Yourself") is presiding over the "festivities", so I'd love to see this.

[dooner]

95. Good to know Everyone is still on board

Looks like Conyer's is (still) doing his job and serving his country, and for this we should all be very pleased. Now we need to do ours by keeping the pressure on the senators being asked to step up.

Thanks Will for keeping us informed. It's good news, and will be even better when our Senators do their jobs.

[pamela]

Thank you. I'm smiling...

and writing a letter to my Senator, Barbara Mikulski.

[RFSea]

98. Judge Moyers

Is this in response to Moyers apparent ignorance referenced in this report? http://tinyurl.com/65bya

Line that jumped out at me from the write up is:
"...He added that he has no reason to remove himself since the challenge doesn't involve his own election and he has nothing to gain by a change in the results..."

and:

"...No hearings have yet been scheduled in the case..."

If he already ruled, why would there be hearings scheduled? Appeal Hearings?

I grow tired of reading arBusto alert articles since circa Jan 2002 to present day unless they contain data regarding criminal activities, or data that destroys the lie of integrity they have tried to placate since Stolen Election 2000

Goodwill to Mr Conyers, and if Kerry and Company doesn't have a plan from the Senate's perspective, either clandestine or overt, he and his party will pay dearly and may indeed become defunct, unable to operate as "Criminal Lite"

[LiberalHeart]

190. He ruled on just the emergency request and the self-removal....

...not on the case itself. Hearings have yet to be set for the case.

[RFSea]

219. Hey Thanx,

That helps...

[IHeart1993]

110. Wow

That's all I can say.
:wow:

[KaliTracy]

113. Thanks Will,...really appreciate all of your hard work!

going to take my long drive home now.... got some letters to write and Fliers to make tonight!

[catbert836]

115. A Senator better stand up.

That's all I can say.

[deacon2]

119. You can't please everyone, William

But that did get a smile out of me. For the rest of the sourpusses out there - it was firmly up in the air whether or not Conyers would take this step. Now the next step is to get a Senator, yes, but that step wouldn't even be possible without this one.
So why not enjoy the moment?

Thank you, Mr. Pitt.

[jazzjunkysue]

122. I faxed Byrd about 14 articles today: He asked for news, so...

I sent his secretary 14 articles from NYTimes, Seattle Times, Washington Post, and most importantly, the famous Dayton Xenia breakin letter. He had asked for real newspaper clippings about the allegations, and so I sent what I had collected over the last 2 months. I never ever guessed they'd come in useful some day, I just wanted my own evidence that they stole Ohio. So, now, he'll have Conyer's documents of the proof. Thank the lord.

Their feet are to the fire, now, and they know that we know it. If they cave, then the democracy is over. Even if all we do is put this to a two hour debate, it will finally be news and the networks will HAVE to report on it. If they use a majority vote to give the Blowmonkey his white house back, we can bask in the beauty of knowing that the asshole NEVER WON THE PRESIDENCY! NOT EVEN ONCE!

And for that, I'll be eternally grateful!!!

Amen, brother Conyers. You're a hero, no matter what. All you can do is your part. Now, you're asking them to do theirs. God bless you. Amen. A little piece of America is alive in Senator Conyers.

Now, I'm off to pester my own senators about the little love letter they got today! Anyone wanna join me? Think I'll send this to the ignorant, deaf, dumb, and blind media, too.

[Turn CO Blue]

167. You rock!

[Helga Scow Stern]

184. Good, I was hoping someone was on that.

:yourock:

Did you send the one from the LA Times 12/12?

[Jo March]

268. You are awesome! I had heard that Byrd's office needed articles

Awesome that you sent them.

Anyone can go to www.thedeanpeople.org and fax any Senator they want providing you have a zip code that is in the Senator's state. :)

I've been faxing my fingers off. I even sent one to good old Libby Dole from my state. (Bleck)

[kerrygoddess]

123. Thanks Will!

[teddyk23]

127. now conyers needs YOUR help

[blm]

125. I hope it's Byrd. He's already convinced BushInc is a pack of thugs and

crooks. He has absolutely nothing to lose by opposing them at this stage of his life. Let's just hope his family isn't threatened.

[IndyPriest]

126. Where's that Doohickie thread! I believe I do believe!!

[cyn2]

128. I hope Michael Moore is there with a camera n/t

[WilliamPitt]

132. I'll be there with a Blackberry

Not the same, but still... :)

[jswill]

143. Tired of the false hopes and hysteria

Let's face it, this is all as meaningless as the mass orgasm we were having earlier about Kerry's signature going on a hopeless legal motion.

Conyers is not going to change the course of anything, certainly there will not be enough Senators opposing the counting of the Ohio votes (I doubt there will even be one), and Bush will be the next president.

Wouldn't it make more sense to consider how to counter him the next four years and elect a Democrat in 2008 than luxuriate in this false melodrama? Perhaps fewer breathless posts about secret information we can all get ourselves through google, and more realistic talk about the next four years would do some of us some good.

Yes, I'm new here, but so what? Flame away, ban me. But this mass psychosis will only lead to our demise.

[deacon2]

185. Dear jswill

Forgive me, but is not possible that the "mass psychosis" to which you refer is actually the dominant notion that the election is legitimate and mass media reporting is accurate in its scope? I would add to that category the unfounded hope for electing a Democratic president in 2008, which is currently as false as the vote tallies in Ohio if this issue is not addressed. Conyers gives us hope of election reform and maybe, just maybe, giving a black eye to this snake oil salesmen we are forced to call our president.

[intheflow]

204. You are wise, deacon2.

I loved that you turned his mass psychosis statement around so completely. Rock on! Welcome to DU! :hi:

[jswill]

221. Dear deacon2

You’re confusing two distinct things. One is election fraud; the other is the possibility of derailing Bush’s second term. The mass psychosis pertains specifically to all of those getting excited about the prospects of the latter.

No, those who believe in Bush’s being elected legitimately are not psychotic, but making conclusions from incomplete information. By no means am minimizing the importance of uncovering and detailing all attempts to steal the election. I agree that is imperative to safeguard 2008. But that is a long and painstaking effort, and not the sort of thing that makes for daily drama.

What I object to is the false hysteria generated here about some possibility of preventing Bush from taking office here. There are those who perpetuate those false hopes, and I am skeptical of their motives. Their motives, however, are nothing compared to the damage it does to us. While we’re distracted by some lunatic notion that the courts are going to overturn the Ohio vote, or a majority of senators will suddenly refuse to certify the results, real events take place. The war continues, funding is misappropriated, the middle class shrinks a little smaller – and here we are awaiting the latest revelation about some hallucinatory vision.

Sorry, folks. Bush will be president for the next four years. The sooner we deal with that the better. And yes, let’s keep pressure on election fraud. But let’s also regain some perspective. That is an issue that will play out in great detail - not the stuff of daily melodrama I’m afraid. Maybe we should all just get back to work.

[pacalo]

239. If you feel that way, why are you compelled to read these threads of hope?

The war continues, funding is misappropriated, the middle class shrinks a little smaller...

You clearly recognize the motivation for getting WhatsHisName out of office. Why not start with the election fraud that gave squatter's rights to WhatsHisName, or do you just want to throw your hands up & give up?

[Turn CO Blue]

333. Well stated, but if I may

remind you of one simple truth about human nature -- we will all grieve in our own way. And make no mistake, liberals and the ABB crowd are in mourning!

When I was recovering last year from the whirlwind unexpected terminal illness, coma and death of my mother -- a few days and weeks afterwards there were already people in my personal and professional life who were advising me to "Just snap out of it" or "Just focus on something else". "Isn't it time you got over this?" "Time to face the real world now."

These were, to be blunt, thoughtless, callous attempts to advise and assist a grieving person.

I will let others on the forum speak to the importance of investigating election fraud and overturning the election, but I will assert that there is more harm being done in labeling mourners and activists as impractical nutcases than in indulging them a little while they go round and round through the circular stages of grief.

Shock, denial, anger, bargaining. (Leaving out acceptance.)

[Chimpanzee]

347. I've long given up the possibility that Bush won't be inaugurated

That is not the point here. The point is that if the election is contested (by at least one congressman and senator), it will force the MSM to at least mention it and there will be questions about why the MSM didn't cover any of the build up to this event. It will allow the masses to possibly see past the mass psychosis imparted to them by the lack of coverage of anything but the Bush talking points and that is what is needed before anything else can happen. The pieces of the puzzle may start to come together for those outside of DU and when the people are informed, that's when we start to get real power. That is what gives me hope.

[Turn CO Blue]

186. There are lots of other forums on the board

This one is specifically for those who are interested in 2004 Election discussion, and the subject tends to encompass the election fraud and its investigation and prosecution.

There are other forums for the 2006 and 2008 elections and campaigns:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=108>

Just go to Politics and Issues to have a look around, to find like-minded people.

[teddyk23]

192. jswill -- No flaming here

But I really really disagree with you.

For the last few years, the Democratic Party has done too much cynical and tactical thinking designed to get us through the next election, and it has not worked (e.g. vote on Iraw war resolution). When I here your appeal for "realistic talk," I hear more of the same.

There is no doubt there was a concerted effort in Ohio to supress the democratic vote and minority votes in particular. We should stand up and say it is wrong, not only if we know we will win, but just because it is right.

It is our inability, at times, to do this basic thing that makes people think Republicans are strong and steadfast but democrats are flip-floppers with no convictions.

In the long run, doing the right thing is also good politics.

Hope my response is civil and constructive.

[President Kerry]

245. one of the best posts i've seen on here.

thanks teddyk

Welcome to DU :toast:

[ChloeForKerry]

193. No flaming from me

[intheflow]

194. I don't think anyone here thinks this will overturn the election

even if we do get a Senator to stand up. The point here is that these actions will raise awareness of the issues among the public.

It took two years to impeach Nixon, and we have a lot more people disapproving of this pResident imeidately after this election than Nixon had immediately following his re-election in '72.

Even if this election leads to having a 100% paper trail in 2008, it will be an accomplishment. Not as far reaching as we might like, but social justice takes time. Just ask the African Americans who fought Jim Crow laws in the 1950's and '60's. Just ask the South Africans who fought Apartheid for so long.

BushCo. is raping this country and the world. But that doesn't mean we have to bend over and accept the inevitable. We must fight back with every legal avenue open to us.

[pacalo]

I don't buy that. If you're here in the first place, it's because you

still have hope. Otherwise, why would you be interested in reading the information here? If you're not looking for hope, then why would you bother spending time here?

[AmerDem]

236. what's this "we" shit?

"this is all as meaningless as the mass orgasm we were having earlier about Kerry's signature going on a hopeless legal motion." Most here didn't have an "orgasm" over what you bring up. Most here took it as positive news on the way to January 6th.

See that's the difference between what you think and what you read. Take a breath Francis and instead of trying to prove someone that brings positives wrong, ponder and tell us what you have done in way of fixing the voting fraud issue.

[Jo March]

274. Please read my post about obstacles

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2883747

If you aren't leading or helping, then kindly move aside as the rest of us keep moving forward.

There will be NO 2006 or 2008 unless we stop this now. Don't you understand that?? It won't make a difference.

There are just too many speedbumps on this road. It gets tiresome trying to go around them.

For what it's worth, welcome to DU. Try not to be so defeatist after only a few posts. Life is what you make of it. So is Democracy.

:hi:

Edited to add the post.

[Amaryllis]

315. Speaking of MM, maybe this will finally convince him there is something

more than conspiracy theories to this fraud stuff.

[liberal N proud]

131. The Senators who shall receive the greatest focus

from Conyers in this matter are Biden, Bingaman, Boxer, Byrd, Clinton, Conrad, Corzine, Dodd, Dorgan, Durbin, Feingold, Harkin, Inyoue, Jeffords, Kennedy, Kerry, Lautenberg, Leahy, Levin, Lieberman, Mikulski, Nelson (FL), Jack Reed, Harry Reid, Rockefeller, Sarbanes, Stabenow, Wyden and Obama.

Who do you think will/will not?

[RaulVB]

136. Obama, Lieberman and Wyden are a "no-go"

They are totally out of the question, IMO

[electric-eye]

148. Why is Obama a no-go?

[RaulVB]

178. Too worried about himself first (n/t)

[intheflow]

197. political suicide for a new senator. n/t

[Qutzupalotl]

240. Why is Wyden a no-go?

(I wrote him.) Is it because he's from a "purple" state?

[Farmgirl]

243. RaulVB, why don't you think Wyden would sign on?

He's my dem senator from Oregon -- and seems to be 'for the people'...what's he got to lose?

[RaulVB]

259. Not much "spine" there...

I'm afraid. Wyden is a "second string" figure for the Democrats and he is happy with that role, I guess.

Plus, it was quite amusing to hear Wyden using O'bama's speech at the Democratic convention (that was plagiarism, BTW) almost word by word after Wyden had won reelection by a landslide!

C'mon now, who is the "newbie" Ron?

You couldn't come up with anything original to do your own celebration rally?

[EFerrari]

149. Byrd, Kennedy, Harkin, Feingold, in that order n/t

[missouri dem 2]

181. Lieberman won't sign.

[mollyd]

134. How about some pressure on Leiberman

to prove he is not the GOP's favorite pet Democrat. He is facing some pressure from the progressives on his standing too often with the Rethugs on issues like Iraq and free speech. Perhaps this can be presented to him as an oppostunity to stand for something rather than being a corporate tool.

[delphine]

142. There is no effing way that Lieberman

will do it. How can he get a cabinet position (Homeland Security?) if he does?

Lieberman (DINO-Republicrat).

[emulatorloo]

223. I thought Lieberman already turned down homeland security

I was only glancing at the news at the time, but I am pretty sure Joe Said No to joining Bush's Sinking Ship.

[VTGold]

140. OMG - I go out for 5 minutes....love you Conyers!!!!! xxxooo

[housewolf]

141. Gosh darn it....

Two of my cheesecakes I have going out to customers just overbaked while I was too busy here waiting and being excited


:(

[noclonyofthechimp]

145. THANK YOU for the update, Will. This IS breaking news because

we now know that Conyers is not only just stating that he is planning on doing this, he HAS officially drafted a letter to every Senator and the next step in the process has taken place. Thank you very much for keeping us updated with every tid-bit of the process.:yourock:

[cyberpj]

147. CONTACT INFO FOR ALL OF THESE SENATORS IS HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x212387

[marcologico]

293. THANKS!!

I was hoping somebody would post that

[whalerider55]

151. first off, I think...

this is great. Conyers and Charlie Rangel are my two heroes in Congress. I used to love Barney Frank, but when he went into hiding after 11/2, i lost a lotta respect. a lotta.

second, I'm with Walt. I think all 45 should stand up. I don't think one will.

I've bombed Feingold. He sent back a form e-mail saying he doesn't read form e-mails, send a personal e-mail, and he'll read it after he reads all the other e-mails from people who live in Wisconsin. I wrote to Kennedy my senator, twice in the last three weeks, asking them to sponsor the house petition. Haven't even heard back.

I think there may be some merit to the theory that they might m\not want to tip their hands (like they can keep 45 prima donnas and their eager beaver staffs quiet until Jan 6th); but that doesn't excuse not getting a foirm letter back saying, yeah, votes are improtant, blah blah.

I also agree with William of Pitt, and i will continue to bomb away. because i kinda like democracy, and hope to inspire elected democrats to tread a little more fporcefully when the f'in issue of enfranchisement is at stake.

And a point of clarification. I could swear I saw a letter cosigned by at least 14 members of congress already putting the world on notice they intend to petition the Senate to toss the results- I remember there were some names from FLorida, and Congressman John Olvger from Western MA. Was this my imagination... if not, there are at least 14 members already signed onto the petition.

whalerider55

[FogerRox]

171. IIRC in F911 the scene of the BLack Cuacus members askin for 1 senator

Didnt Gore ask his fellow senators not to challenge?
In other words there was a Senator-(or maybe more) ready to challenge.
SOOOOOO maybe in 2004 there will be the same--without the democratic canidate saying "NO dont do it".
Just a thought--

[intheflow]

199. Rep. Oliver is a good man.

I wouldn't be surprised if he signed something like that.

[whometense]

260. I think I might have said this before,

if so, please forgive me. Barney (who is my congressman) has been kinda MIA, but so has Ted Kennedy. I think your idea about not wanting to tip their hand may be correct. This is the first time I've ever written to Kennedy and not received any response. Most unusual for him.

[burned]

158. :)

If this didn't happen next week, it would be over. One more step up.

[liam97]

173. Pleas lets not ask

where this will lead. That this is happening is no small matter irrespective of where it leads. Its the fight that is important and Conyers' courage is exceptional.

Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?'
Expediency asks the question,'Is it politic?'
Vanity asks the question "Is it popular"?
But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[burned]

208. not asking where it leads

it leads up whether there is another step or not.

[seito]

210. What an Inspirational Post liam97

Thanks

[Chimpanzee]

348. MLK was one smart cookie! (RIP)

[ConstitutionGuy]

166. So What?

Even if every Democratic Senator joins in, it still comes down to a two hour debate in each house, with each speaker limited to one turn at the podium for no more than 5 minutes, and vote on whether to accept the electors or not. It's virtually guaranteed that both houses, given Republican majorities, would vote to accept Ohio's electors. But just suppose that the Senate, given the slimmer Republican majority could be persuaded to reject Ohio's electors. If the House, with a much stronger Republican majority elects to accept the electors, then they are accepted. Title 3 United States Code requires the two houses to concur in order to reject the electors that have been certified by the state.

[enough already]

253. Filibuster

Can the Senate vote be filibustered?

[ConstitutionGuy]

305. No

By definition, a filibuster is designed and intended to extend debate indefinitely and allows a Senator to take and keep the floor for as long as he wants. Read Title 3 of the United States Code. This is the law that governs the counting of and debate over electoral votes.

Specifically, 3 U.S.C. Section 17:

"When the two Houses separate to decide upon an objection that may have been made to the counting of any electoral vote or votes from any State, or other question arising in the matter, each Senator and Representative may speak to such objection or question five minutes, and not more than once; but after such debate shall have lasted two hours it shall be the duty of the presiding officer of each House to put the main question without further debate."

This law specifically precludes any Senator or Representative from taking and keeping the floor and compels the presiding officer to put the matter to a vote after no more than 2 hours.

[tavalon]

361. Oh, well, then

If we can't reject the electors, why even bother? (a bit of sarcasm)

Life isn't a sitcom and problems get solved much, much more slowly off of the TV. We need to quit being instance gratification junkies. This will have an effect, it may be small but it will be an effect. It is far better that Conyers showed his hand a week early. That's what is being celebrated here.

It just doesn't make any sense to say that we shouldn't try unless we get a certain outcome.

[Quakerfriend]

168. Important point in another thread by garybeck

Ask them to contest the election period! Regardless of the late date in some states, there have been irregularities all over- NV, PA, NM, etc.

[righteous1]

172. Someone stated earlier that this also happened in

2000, can anyone verify that?

[delphine]

174. If they only debate for two hours,

then don't the repukes just have to tolerate dems' rhetoric for two hours and then vote against the challenge and proceed to install their ahole-in-chief?

And if this doesn't make the mainstream news (it took F911 to tell most people, including dems, that the CBC challenged the FL electors), then who really cares beside us?

It becomes another asterisk in the history books unless there is some real discussion and some real attention focused on it.

Some of us should concentrate on the media also, in addition to the Senators.

Because unless 45 dem senators (or 1 repuke!) stands up, the media is likely to ignore this or denigrate whoever does stand up.

(That's why it can't be Byrd, because they already dismiss him as an old coot...)

[IndyPriest]

180. Do more than OH. 2 hrs PER state...

Shoot, they could be there a LONG time, maybe have to sit out the inauguration!

[TexasLawyer]

175. Here's a link to all U.S. Senate contact information

Let the DU lobbying begin!

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

[azndndude]

339. How about Sen. Clinton?

Think she would stand up????

[roenyc]

179. Ted Kennedy

i want him to do it. only because they hate him anyway. and it would just make me happy. he always pisses off the neocons by just being there. and he is sooooooo liberal!!!

you know how they hate liberals. so let it be teddy for us liberals and democrats and for the memory of bobby and john.

[marcologico]

289. If any of them does it, it will be Kennedy

Does Kerry have any stronger supporters?

[cyberpj]

301. let it be teddy for us... and for the memory of bobby and john.

Well said.

I'm with YOU.



PJ

[loudsue]

195. ALL Dem Senators should stand up TOGETHER....and all Reps, as well.

Damn it, if bush wants to "divide and conquer", let him know which side the Dems stand on! They should stand for Democratic voters!! And they SHOULD, above all, stand for TRUE Democracy, where votes are sacred....every single one of them!!

The Democrats need to send the message loud & clear that THEY support the Democratic voters who WILL VOTE for them, and that they WILL NOT STAND for disenfranchisement of those voters, nor for republican state government interference in fair recounts, nor for ANY type of machine/computerized vote flipping or "defaults" set for one candidate.

Enough is e-friggin'-NUFF!!!

:kick::kick:

[WebeBlue]

196. Awesome, Big ol' smile here, and thank you, and I'm still

holding onto the last straw of hope here and cannot afford to let a moment of doubt creep into the equation. 2000 is history but that doesn't mean it has to be the same history for 2004. And since we are living in "historical times", then let new history begin.

More than politics for me folks, got loved ones lives on the line in Iraq, and this is life and death for our family. Also have kids and grandkids with history in the making and they need to see me doing something significant to impact it, not see me sitting on my hands while their entire future goes down the toilet.

B*** out and Kerry in is all I can afford to allow myself to see.

Thank you Will, the updates are what I live for these days. Yikes, kinda sad huh, pathetic even, practically 24/7 on puter these days. Wonder if I will get my "other" life back again.

[Turn CO Blue]

198. Why aren't the new Senators being "targeted"?

such as Obama and Ken Salazar (D-CO).

On the 6th, Ken Salazar will have been there for only two days, but still, he will be a "full" Senator with all the privileges and rights thereof, n'est ce pas?

What am I missing?

[intheflow]

212. By all means, contact Salazar. I will be contacting him.

But from my perspective, as a Massachusetts native now living in CO, Salazar is far too centrist to make any waves. And especially not on day two in a new job!

He might see it as more politically rational to lay low on this so as not to jeopardize CO's recent turn toward the blue side. I don't know if I agree with that or not, but I think Salazar is a politican in every sense of the word and he would not be willing to commit this kind of political suicide.

[Fiendish Thingy]

270. Obama is being targeted; read the whole article n/t

[KaryninMiami]

201. I took a break for a few hours and smiling at this lovely piece of news.

This is a very good thing and a good way to start the new year. Three cheers for Conyers and for everyone's hard work on this.

One step at a time, right? :)

[pacalo]

203. This is GREAT news!

[davidgmills]

207. What a great way to start Obama's Career

[KoKo]

231. Dream On...Obama's never going to support this...his long Political Life

is "ahead of him." This is a "gesture" to us. The Chimp will be inaugurated and life will go on.

But, it's wonderful that there will be a protest of the "Electoral College" and I love it all with big "smiles." :-)'s

[cyberpj]

303. Hadn't even thought that way yet, duh, but YES - and add to that

that it's Conyers and Jackson kicking open the door.


Significant --- Needed --- Powerful --- Opportunity



PJ

[bear425]

211. Thanks Will! I appreciate your work and keeping us...

ahead of the curve. Maybe MY Senator, Nelson, will come through! Have a Happy New Year! :party:

[KansDem]

215. Tell me...

Would Conyers be making this statement if he didn't already have one Senator or more committed?

[liam97]

220. All we need is 100,000 people

with a 'George Bush must resign' sign

[GetTheRightVote]

229. Right now this looks pretty good to me, a very good day !!

:kick:

[borealowl]

232. Nelson

Not very likely - he was lobbied heavily to do it in 2000; he would have been the natural Senator to contest Florida. His staff was friendly; but he didn't do it, and I doubt he was ever even close.

They didn't get it then, our 100 U.S. Senators, they didn't seem to be able to figure it out, when it was just obvious that Florida was rigged up down and every which way. So it's hard to see them getting it now and growing spines, although I hope they do.

If for nothing else, for the history books. That's why I wanted them to speak up so badly in 2000; because at least then Bush would have been more openly questioned and might not have had such a long honeymoon. It was almost as if the Congresscritters didn't want to oppose him on anything precisely BECAUSE the election was so close and he was so vulnerable...then...but not now. Now he has power and his sycophants have power and it goes deep into our Republic, corrupting us all.

[flpoljunkie]

247. No way Nelson would do it. He's up for reelection in 2006; the Rethugs

would crucify him in our state.

[tavalon]

362. yes n/t

[livvy]

222. Good News! I like it!

Try to see the bright side, folks. Don't get yourselves in such a tizzy, and keep up the positive efforts. Being negative or angry is not going to get anybody anywhere. Seems to me this is a very positive step forward. Conyers has committed. That's important. Write your senators and request their support in a civilized, businesslike manner. I've got two I plan to email (Levin and Stabenaw- or however you spell it- here). Then I guess it's up to them.
Oh, jeesh, now I'm really going to have to take the 6th off work. There is no way I'll be able to function there, knowing what may take place.
Thanks for the report, Will. Much appreciated, here.

[loritooker]

242. Would anyone like to start a thread thanking Con. Conyers?

I'm too new to do it. Does it seem appropriate? Then someone could tell him and he could read it and avoid getting a million e mails. (?)

[Amaryllis]

320. Good idea. I talked to the web administrator there. They are ovewhelmed by

the sheer volume of emails.

[CoffeeCat]

244. I urge everyone to contact Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa)

I'm hoping that ultra-progressive Senator Tom Harkin (Iowa) steps up to the plate.

Harkin was not afraid to call Cheney and other necons "chickenhawks", and he was quoted as saying so on numerous occasions.

Tom Harkin stuck his neck out when the CBS story broke about Bush's service. Harkin was courageous. He called a press conference and said that Bush was a coward. Harkin is not afraid to stand up to Bush.

Tom Harkin is a true progressive. He's also an incredible fighter who is a stellar advocate for the people.

Paul Wellstone was his best friend. That speaks volumes.

If any United States senator understands what the Bush Administration is all about--it's Harkin.

[flpoljunkie]

246. Too bad Bob Graham's retirement's effective on Jan 3rd; his HAVA reform

bill never came to the floor. Of course, his co-sponsor was Hillary Clinton. No way could I see her messing up her "centrist" credentials.

[suffragette]

254. Byrd and Inouye together

They are two of the longest serving Senators.
They've been through fights and tough situations.
They respect each other and work together. Check out the picture of them on Sen. Byrd's website: http://byrd.senate.gov/
If we ask them both enough, maybe they'll start talking to each other about it. There's power in doing this together.

[Fiendish Thingy]

257. My letter/email to Barbara Boxer...

I just emailed this, and will be snail-mailing the same tomorrow to her SF office:

December 30th, 2004


Dear Senator Boxer,
Congratulations on your re-election; I've read that you received the third-most votes of any candidate in the nation, behind only John Kerry and George Bush. With support like that, you certainly can afford to spend some "political capital", as Mr. Bush likes to call it.

As you're hopefully aware, there were many problems with the integrity of the November election, including voter suppression, harassment, and disenfranchisement. Evidence is now emerging regarding tampering with vote tabulators and outright election fraud. There are thousands of recorded incidents and complaints across the nation, but particularly in the states of Florida, New Mexico, and Ohio.

I'm urging you to defend our democracy and stand up and join Representatives Waters and Conyers, and others in contesting the Electoral Votes of at least the above named states.

While contesting these electoral votes may not change the outcome of the presidential election, it will focus much needed attention on the integrity of our electoral process. While this action may be controversial, and may come with short-term political consequences, I can assure you that millions of Californians, and millions of Americans would support your courageous steps in contesting the electoral vote for the first time in our nation's history.

We live in a time of heroes and villians; this is your chance to become a hero, and protect the future of our democracy.

Sincerely,



(name and address)

P.S. if you’d like to see for yourself the depth and breadth of support for contesting the electoral votes on January 6th, go to:

http://www.democraticunderground.com

[marcologico]

308. Thanks for posting that!

from another thread:

Sen. Barbara Boxer
112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510
[phone]
Web Form: boxer.senate.gov/contact

[DemonFighterLives]

261. I don't see Dayton on the list

I wonder if there is a reason. He just got back from Iraq and is supporting elections there. That should make him prime to support our elections. He got the great start as a junior senator under the great Paul Wellstone. I'll be writing him and Byrd and others.
Wellstone Ruled but was no match for the BFEE.

[katinmn]

278. I wrote Dayton last week. I'm holding out hope

If he doesn't deliver for us MN progressives, we have no one in Senate who will.

[DemonFighterLives]

354. I wrote to Dayton and Byrd today

Next up is Kennedy, Harkin and Feingold.

[steve2470]

262. does this news link cheer anybody up ?

http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1378&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Conyers Asks Senators to Object to Certification of Election

Congressman John Conyers Jr. (D., Mich.) has sent a letter to each of the 100 members of the United States Senate asking them to join with members of the House in objecting to the certification of the election results on January 6.

Letter from Congressman Conyers to US Senators

Calling for Congressional Debate on 2004 Elections

December 30, 2004

Dear Senator Boxer (sent to all US Senators),

As you know, on January 6, 2005, at 1:00 P.M, the electoral votes for the election of the president are to be opened and counted in a joint session of Congress, commencing at 1:00 P.M. I and a number of House Members are planning to object to the counting of the Ohio votes, due to numerous unexplained irregularities in the Ohio presidential vote, many of which appear to violate both federal and state law. I am hoping that you will consider joining us in this important effort to debate and highlight the problems in Ohio which disenfranchised innumerable voters. I will shortly forward you a draft report itemizing and analyzing the many irregularities we have come across as part of our hearings and investigation into the Ohio presidential election.

<snip>

[New Earth]

266. holy shit dude, he's targeting my senators

cool. i did write them once, maybe i should write them some more?

[Jo March]

277. Heck yeah, Faye! Write them, fax them, call them, email them

Pester the shit out of them. They work for you, for us, for America, dammit.

Time for them to do some work!!

[steve2470]

271. email to Sen. Nelson from Florida, wish me luck

Senator Nelson, please support the effort that Representative Conyers is making to object to the certification of the Ohio electors. It is painfully obvious to me and to others who are paying attention that there are way too many irregularities in the Onio vote. Please, at least talk to Mr. Conyers and hear him out. Thank you so much for saving our democracy and our right to valid elections.

[Peter Frank]

272. Conyers will be on Oberman show, MSNBC -- just started n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

273. Should I write my two republican senators?

Kaye Bailey and Cronyn. I'm in Texas. Yeah, right.

[blue neen]

314. Spector and Santorum here.

I know how you feel. :( Can anyone advise as to who we should contact.
I definitely want to contribute to the effort.

[lonestarnot]

280. Woohoo! Love you Senator Conyers! A true statesman and representative

of the people.

[Peace Patriot]

283. I agree with Kansas Dem--Conyers likely has at least one Senator already..

...but he wouldn't say who at this point, because others might think, "Oh, it's covered. I don't have to risk anything."

Gut feeling.

Someone upthread mentioned "political suicide" in connection with CO's Salazar signing on, and other risks, like Obama being too new to do this (long career ahead of him at risk).

I'm just not sure about this. Why is it a risk? A risk in what way? Getting creamed by the BushCon media? So--stand up to it? Play to it--hit 'em back with the facts (the evidence is overwhelming, in my opinion). Karl Rove might call you names? Isn't that a red badge of courage?

We're looking at this from the wrong perspective. This action is for US KERRY VOTERS WHO WERE ROBBED OF OUR VICTORY. And that includes Republicans who voted for Kerry. It is also a fundamental democracy issue--transparent elections. This election couldn't have been more NON-transparent!

And it's for all Kerry voters who got lied to, on their TV screens, when they altered the Exit Polls--and don't even know it yet. They don't know Kerry won! They don't know WHO owns the source code as secret proprietary information, that tabulates all our votes.

And finally, this is a guarantee of OUR support--the active, fundraising, volunteering, committed to democracy LEFT.

So what is the risk?

On the one hand, folks at DU say the Democratic Party is dead, if the Dem Senators don't stand up. On the other, some here are saying it's "political suicide." I disagree with the latter. I think it's political LIFE to stand up against BushCons and their goddamned fraudulent election and their goddamned war and their goddamned fascist agenda! LIFE!

And I think they should ALL stand up! Yes!

______

I think it was jswill upthread who wrote about us here "making conclusions from incomplete information."

1. Why is the information incomplete?

2. Isn't the only thing we need to know is that BushCons own the voting system?

3. I take you have read ALL the reports--Freeman, Baiman, UC Berkeley, Scoop, TruthIsAll, ignatzmouse, the 57,000 complaints sent to Congress of vote suppression, malfunctioning machines (changing Kerry votes to Bush votes all day long; all machines defaulting to Bush, etc.), black and poor voters shorted on precincts, the Conyers committee report, and the lawsuit briefs. Have you?

Say you get plunked down on a snowy landscape with inadequate protection. Your fingers and toes start to go numb. You reach down and feel the snow. Yes, it is cold. Yes, it is snow. But you're not really sure if it will be snow a foot away from you, or a yard away. So you step over by a foot, and feel THAT snow. Yup, it's cold, too. Must be snow. Could be this is what's freezing my hands and feet. But you're still not sure enough, maybe a yard away it won't be snow.

And you keep doing this--testing as to whether or not it's really snow, and it's really cold--for miles around you, instead of taking a look around you, seeing that it's white and it's very probably snow, and taking measures to protect your hands and feet, build a snow cave, signal for help, build a fire, and otherwise preserve your life. While you go on testing whether it's all snow or not, you freeze to death.

Were you insane, or not? Or just a real hardnosed skeptic with no common sense?

[katinmn]

294. Agreed. Who are the activists of the Dem party?

Quote:
On the one hand, folks at DU say the Democratic Party is dead, if the Dem Senators don't stand up. On the other, some here are saying it's "political suicide." I disagree with the latter. I think it's political LIFE to stand up against BushCons and their goddamned fraudulent election and their goddamned war and their goddamned fascist agenda! LIFE! :thumbsup:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I'll never work for another mainstream politician again if they don't stand up for us now.

[TexasBushwhacker]

317. My money is on Kennedy or Byrd

Byrd is definitely not running for re-election and Kennedy will be 74 in when he's up for re-election in 2006. Another 6 years? Daniel Akaka just turned 80. Surely he's not planning to run for re-election in 2006. Even Dianne Feinstein and Paul Sarbanes will be 73 by 2006, and Jim Jeffords will be 72.

I'm hoping one (or better yet ALL) of these elder statesmen will step up to the plate for this. In 2000 we thought Bush would be a bad president. Now we KNOW.

[kerrygoddess]

357. The Lion Will Roar

That's my bet.

[empathy]

284. Lame Duck

Lets be fair - we all know how the system works for most politicians-- they are willing to be liberals (if that is how they lean) as long as they aren't screwing up their own political future. Sadly, welstone has passed on and to be honest, the democrats have NOBODY EVEN CLOSE to his level of integrity. And I'm not trying to be critical -- really,. That's just how it works.

So to get a SENATOR to step forward, we need to find a SENATOR who figure he/she has nothing to lose... that means a Senator who is NOT planning to run for election again.

Doesn't sound difficult- just round up a list of Democrats senators who are unlikely to run for election again and lets start being annoying. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain! historically, there is no current Democratic senator (except maybe Kennedy and its all in the name), who will be remembered, in a significant way, by history. With reasonable doubt as to the validity of the past election, any senator who objects (and has nothing to lose) has a LOT to gain.

Is there any hole in this logic?

g

[BigBearJohn]

287. Ok now you did it. You made me cry at the thought of . . .

ALL the Democrat Senators and Representatives joining
in hand-in-hand in unison for this challenge. I get
chills just thinking of how dramatic it would be.
I know, I know, I'm a big fucking dreamer -- but still...
it would energize the USA like nothing before it.
Can you imagine?

[lonestarnot]

297. History waiting for them if they want it!

[The Judged]

291. Unlike in 2000, there is no risk to the election if a Senator challenges.

So, I would wager that it will happen for this reason.

By stealing the election, turning back the clock in this country 200+ years, and by making an afterward gesture of acknowledging that the election system needs more fixing, due to Ohio's irregularities, and by Congress spending two hours debating this issue prior to dismissing it and in order to shut up the dissidents, the Re-uglicans lose nothing.

In fact, they get to give out more pork barrel funds to their buddies who will undoubtedly come up with exclusive contracts providing states with more problematic equipment that ensures Re-uglican control in this country for ever and ever.

Unfortunately, we the dissidents will get little more than a stroke job from Congress on January 6th, 2005.

I realize that the challenge is MONUMENTAL to each of us, that there is no way without the effort of many members of this forum and their counterparts out in the real world that this could happen, and that it will tarnish Bushes election in all of our minds, but it will not derail the opportunity for these creeps to roll back the clock over 200 years and to enslave all of us that are not among the elites.

Only through true organization and strategic planning with child proof plans can we overcome what we are about to be dealt: loss of human rights and economic servitude.

[jazzjunkysue]

352. Re-uglicans. My new favorite word.

The best thing about the challenge emails I sent out to Dem senators is the last line I used:

"We're asking for your vote."

That felt good.

[DemGirl7]

292. Are you sure...

that there will be at least one Senator that stands up, I don't mean to damper your sprits, it's just that I feel that it will a repeat of what happened after the 2000 election. I'm sorry, I want to believe that a senator will stand up, it's just that I'm so use to the Democrats letting Bush get away with what he has done to the country, with little or no opposition, that I find it hard to believe that a Senator will stand up on Jan. 6th...heck I feel that half of the congressional black caucus won't even bother to fight this time around.

[WilliamPitt]

307. I am not at all sure

but this will help, I think. Every little bit helps.

[elizm]

319. why do you feel half of the CBC won't fight?

For once they have others who will stand with them...I don't see them as quitters in any way. I just wish more had stood with them in 2000.

[peacetalksforall]

306. All the Seantors should do it to make up for Iraq.

n/t

[valis]

310. Same thing happened in 2000, no?

Shown at the beginning of the Farenheit 9/11 film... It was painful to watch, all these reps standing up and begging the Senators...

[lonestarnot]

312. That scene was very hard to watch.

[WilliamPitt]

313. Not quite

Members of the CBC protested the election. But:

1. They did not do a public press for Senators as Conyers is doing;

2. They did not prepare a detailed report on the fraud, as Conyers is doing and will release next week;

3. The did not have 10 million pissed-off organized-as-hell online activists ready to scream a Senator into standing up.

[Amaryllis]

316. Ready to scream a BUNCH of senators into standing up.

[s-cubed]

321. Cripes - how many pessimists there are?

You have to be a dreamer to make things happen. If all you do is point out why nothing will help, of course you won't do anything. Dream big!

On Nov 3rd, I'd have never thought we'd have gotten so far as we have today. There are huge differences between now and 2000. For one thing, people know who GWB is.

Now, I will go out on a limb: I will predict that it will be more than the Black Caucus that stands up on the House side, and it will be a lot more than 1 senator who stands up on the Senate side.

Why? Abuse of power. Under Bush, Rove, Frist, Delay, Hasbert (sp?), the members of both houses of Congress have been stomped on anytime they got out of line. The White House is trying to concentrate all the power in its hands. At some point, the worm turns. The Democrats have nothing to lose: they are in the minority anyway. Some Republicans can see that the Chimperator is losing his clothes day by day. They will grab this as their only hope of being rid of the neocons many of them consider to be highly dangerous to the US, the world, and the Republican party. They remember the excesses of Newt and how that failed.

Now, about those Democrats: remember the silence, the very peculiar silence that so many commented on? The Dems didn't stand around in a circle blasting each other after the election. They've been waiting for the right time to make their move. Conyers was perfect as the front man: the repugs would never take him seriously. Let him play his little games all he wants. But then: January 6, the silence breaks as the Dems expose the repugs for the crooks they are while CSPAN films everything. And Kerry is in Iraq visiting the troops. Brilliant!

[Amaryllis]

323. Pessimist? What are you talking about? I said a bunch of senators.

How do you get pessimist out of that?
Some people don't even think we will get one.

[s-cubed]

326. Sorry, Amaryllis, I wasn't directing it at you, but at the ones who

were being pessimistic.:)

[Amaryllis]

337. Apology accepted. :) I was confused since it seemed to be in

response to my post. I think we are gonna get more than one senator!

[walkbyfaith7]

322. Doesn't he need to contest both Ohio and Florida and

probably all the swing states that deviated from the exit poll.

[Amaryllis]

324. That's what I was wondering too. He did have some FL people at the first

hearing. He's working with Cobb and Badnarik and they are on top of New Mexico, and Nevada. So maybe they will go for at least those three states besides. But haven't all his investigations been in Ohio?

[IndyPriest]

330. Depends on the goal. If they can turn OH, Kerry's got a

shot at winning the election. If the goal's to expose the full extent of the fraud, yes, all the swing states would be terrific! Getting OH alone would go a long way to exposing the fraud, and would probably lead to the examination of the others. But that'd take a lot of time. So, one step at a time, and in terms of getting Kerry into the WH, OH's key.

[walkbyfaith7]

356. But if only Ohio's 20 votes are thrown out, Bush still leads; however,

if Florida's 27 are thrown out, Kerry wins the WH. Doesn't it make sense to challenge both states?

[The Judged]

327. Unified minority groups can become a majority by political coalition!

Together, minorities of all sorts, can achieve their rightful goals for equal treatment and protection under the law, human rights, civil rights, and for true freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Use your rights or lose them.

[wiggs]

329. At a MINIMUM, every single democratic senator should stand up.

What have they got to lose?

Democratic congresspersons have practically no power in either house and on few committees. They are excluded from behind the scenes deal making. They may be bypassed on filibusters soon.

There is no reason why every single democratic leader shouldn't stand up on January 6. That would be beautiful. Even if they don't all see the vote tampering potential, our democratic "leaders" should oppose the vote on the principle that this administration is the worst ever.

This is a dangerous, dysfunctional, power-hungry, immoral, dishonest administration. Many in congress must feel this, even more than we do.

THAT ALL DEMOCRATIC SENATORS STAND UP TO QUESTION THIS ELECTION IS THE MINIMUM WE SHOULD EXPECT!

I bet even a few republicans, deep down, would wish they could stand up. Republican senators were lied to re WMD and Medicare, just like the democrats. The President abused the IWR authority that ALL congresspersons gave him. The President is ruining the environment of all states, not just blue ones. The deficit can't please republicans either. Abu Ghraib. Not enough armor. 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians. Afganistran funding illegally shifted to Iraq planning. Shouldn't ALL of congress be pissed off behind the scenes? You would think so.

Wouldn't it be nice if Kerry knew that he had enough representatives and senators who couldn't stand B*sh to flip the election? Wouldn't it be wonderful to see all the chickens come home to roost and have congress vote to give the election to Kerry?

Fraud, by itself, may not change the election outcome. You need judges and FBI to help fraud issues come to fruition. But angry congresspersons just might turn the tables.

[Sforza]

334. The challenge

I'm not worried at all. A senator or two will sign on, challenging the Ohio count. It gets discussed for a while, facts are presented, you know, the whole dog and pony show. So when they get tired of this, and everyone is anxious for the big Bush parade, the Dems--however many there are, say they will only be satisfied with a re-vote, you know, like they done in the Ukraine. Be sure to mention how 20% of the people think the election was stolen. So to restore faith in the chimp's victory and the whole votin' process, we do a quick revote, with, you know, borrowed paper trail machines, and give it a go. What's the rush. And why would Republicans object; after all the Bushwacker II won handsomely (figuratively speaking). Do not fear the re-vote. If all is on the up and up in Ohio, why wouldn't the Republicans welcome the re-vote, you know, so they can shut the mouths of the snivellers (us). Bring it on. Of course Kerry will win the Ken Blackwell-less revote. And thus the election. Of course there will be the obligatory declaring of martial law and Bush will no doubt call out the national guard to arrest Congress, etc. But after a few days of such shenanigans, reality will sink in to the tiny mind of The Faith Based One. And then we can have Kerry as President, and throw out the damn P-nackers, one and all. Rejoin the UN, apologize to the Iraqis and rebuild their country, offer some real help for the tsunami victims, join that anti-global warming deal, join the world court, recommend Bush and Cheney for war crimes prosecution. Stuff like that. I've been wrong about a lot of things, but I'm pretty sure this is how it's gonna play out. Well, either that or Bush is the anti-christ and we're all doomed anyway.

[Chasing Dreams]

335. NOT n/t

[Donailin]

351. Sforza, Welcome to DU!

I'm thinking it's the second one: Bush is the anti-Christ and we're all doomed.

[DemonFighterLives]

353. Great Scenario

And Great first post. Welcome to DU.

[Left coast liberal]

359. I want what's in your crystal ball! Great vision! n/t

[Corey_Baker08]

340. Will The Objction Process/ Certifying be Telivised

I was wondering if the possible Sen objection will be broadcast live on tv like Cspan or MSNBC or Something like that. If so what time, I have to watch this but Ill be in school (maybe) and I have to beg the teachers to watch it or skip that day.

Thise coukld be a defining day for Democrats everywhere, like i aid earlier we really have nothing to lose and everything to gain lets give it a shot!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

346. If a Senator publicly comes forward before January 6th

you bet your ass it would get covered. This hasn't happened before, to the best of my knowledge. If it has happened before, it happened a long, long time ago.

C-SPAN will cover it regardless - they always do - and you can get it later online if you miss the live broadcast. But if a Senator comes forward, it'll be on everywhere I think.

[liam97]

355. Will, then just imagine

if 3 or 5 or a dozen come forward....

[SlowDownFast]

350. my letter to Carl Levin

Dear Senator Levin,

I am one of many who are very disturbed to hear about reports of voter disenfranchisement and suppression that happened during the 2004 election across America and particularly Ohio.

Free and fair elections are crucial tenet to our democracy. How can our country tout our democratic principles to the world when we ourselves are subject to doubts about our election system?

From the reports I've seen about Ohio, it seems our precious advances in civil rights have been set back 50 years! The evidence from Ohio and other parts of the country shows there WERE NOT free and fair elections. This evidence goes back 4 years ago to the 2000 elections. When the counting of the electors was in progress then, several representatives (african americans, may I remind you) contested. Where were the senators to join?

This time, again, there is an opportunity to stand up against the eroding of our democracy. Representative John Conyers, among others, has spearheaded investigations into the 2004 elections. He has now publicly stated that he will object to counting of the electors in order to foster debate in both houses and he has forwarded an invitation to you and others to join. It is your patriotic duty, sir, to stand and object with Congressman Conyers.

A line has been drawn.

And I and many others will be watching to see who does what.

Sincerely,