I believe a senator will stand, maybe more, but if one does not

[rainy]

we should abandon the party as it will be evident that they have abandoned us. We should go green and fight hard for run off voting. That way the majority will truly win elections. We must fight the election fraud as well.
The Dem's. are so afraid of offending the ruling class, the wealthy repubs. because they own and control everything. They are in a hard place and we need runoff voting to keep attention on the people not the elite. For true change we need to go all the way with the candidates that really express truth to power. We all know this is so. The only winning Dem's now are the ones who stand up and fight for the people. Those are the real progressives. We need a real progressive party, of course, with runoff voting as not to let another Bush be president. We need to have an independent media and a loud progressive voice that cannot be ignored. How do we get there? Refuse to be used by the Dem's who have lost their way to corporate greed.

[scottxyz]

1. i agree

make them lose their seat if they DON'T stand.

we're not asking them to do it for Kerry's sake.

we're just asking them to enforce the law.

[mitchtv]

5. yup just what we need

2 republicans from CA

[LoZoccolo]

2. I believe you'll stand here on DU, maybe for years, but regardless

I can't see you!

:hi:

[Machiavelli05]

3. Not a single senator will object and it has nothing to do with...

corporate greed or afraid to offend the republicans. It has to do with the lack of any concrete evidence. Every theory and piece of evidence put forth have alternate explanations... maybe they dont make as much sense to you... all they need to do is have a slight chance of being valid to completely impeach the entire theory.

[papau]

4. why rock solid named person did this? - never needed in our review

of foriegn elections - or indeed in our Court reviews of local stolen elections.

Sounds more like lack of spine - or a Fox idea that is being sold to Democratic Party members.

If the latter - sorry - it's "no sale" from me.

[lostnfound]

31. Never needed in voting to go to war, either nt

[loudsue]

6. Sorry, Machiavelli (good name for you), but you're just WRONG.

There are MOUNTAINS of hard core, concrete legal evidence. No matter what the outcome, the evidence is THERE.

:kick::kick:

[rainy]

7. I agree, t he evidence is there and it is now or never to fight

the corrupt voting system. We must fight to the finish on this issue or we never win again. The system is so broken it is clear what needs to be done. We have to stop the use of the current voting machines and come up with a better way or go back to the old way, paper ballots. It is inevitable that this will be fixed, better now then after more suffering caused by the hard-core right.

[PinkPantherChick]

10. YES, the evidence is so "in your face" it cannot be a mistake.

I spent all day yesterday sending emails to each and every senator in the country demanding that they stand up and told them that the way they vote on this issue is going to follow them and not go away.

[Machiavelli05]

12. but it WILL go away

thats what Im trying to say. The American public just wont care.

Why do you think theyre going to suddenly care? They dont care about much

[SmokingJacket]

38. A LOT care.

Maybe not enough, I don't know.

But something like 20% believe it was stolen... and that's without any MSM coverage. That's 50 MILLION people!

A lot more would care if there was coverage, and publicizing this can only increase coverage.

Think positive.

[Machiavelli05]

46. 20% is only slightly more than half of the people who identify themselves

as Democrat.

[SmokingJacket]

55. I think that's a lot, actually.

Considering how disparaged the idea has been, and how little widespread attention its gotten.

Half of Dems? Wow.

That feels about right, thinking of the Dems I know.

It's getting larger.

[electropop]

59. So the majority of the majority party believe it's fraudulent.

And your party isn't deeply afraid, M? Have you purchased a villa in South America for your getaway yet?

[Machiavelli05]

65. You dont really make much sense.

[electropop]

67. You've reminded us of just how huge the numbers are

who don't trust the election, yet you are trying to dismiss the reality of the fraud. Members of your party betray their fear when they speak that way.

[The Doctor.]

51. If a Senator stands on this, there will be coverage.

The media will have to take notice.

Nothing bad can come of more attention being paid to election fraud.
Once it's there - we have to KEEP it there!

Even if Chimpy is sworn in again.

[asjr]

8. The irony of all this is that if it ends

up in the SCOTUS, whereas in FL in 2000 they didn't allow states rights to be upheld, in 2004 in Ohio, the SCOTUS will probably not touch it and suggest the State of Ohio can handle it.

[Pam-Moby]

9. impeach the entire theory? OMG

Well for your information it is not theory, its fact. That is why the words being used here are "legal evidence".

[Machiavelli05]

14. What HARD evidence?

Disparities in exit polling? A single affidavit? A discredited Triad employee? Some conjecutre, conspiracy and hypothesis to link everything. Its not what is needed to win in the court of law or the court of public opinion.

There needs to be video or audio tapes or memos or emails or SOMETHING that doesnt need to have a connection to something else. In order to make a convincing case it has to be so offensive and so abhorent to the collective concious that people will be on the verge of storming the White House. Otherwise it will just wither away or be used against the Dems.

[Pam-Moby]

17. Well what is Clint Curtis? Proof

Conyers charges, Lack of Blackout allowing congress to investagate. That is a good indication. What about vote supression? Proof it happened!

[Machiavelli05]

19. Its the groundwork for a good case...

But its all linked together with circumstance, inference and grasping at straws. As you said "indications"... it needs more or it will never get traction

[Pam-Moby]

22. Tell that to the people that stood out in the rain for hours!!!

So, if you were not there it did not happen? What makes you think that is not proof. OM G

[Machiavelli05]

25. standing out in the rain could be intentional fraud/suppression...

or it could be incredibly bad planning and a bit of coincidence with where it happened.

I believe that it was more of "oh those places dont have enough machines? Oh they vote Democrat? Ok... we'll try to get to it - but I have to go get lunch first"

You, and many people on the board think that it was orchestrated and intentional. However, without a memo or documented proof from the horse's mouth (SoS of Ohio, being the horse for instance, Rove would be a lot more meaningful horse though) the public will prefer to believe that everything was on the up and up.

People dont want to believe their government fucked them - they will only believe it if they are beat over the head with convincing and unimpeachable evidence.

[pointsoflight]

28. It's not just standing in the rain.

It's having registrations thrown away or not mailed out, it's rejecting provisional ballots on shaky grounds, it's threatening black voters with arrest, it's changing voting locations in urban areas at the last minute, it's rejecting votes because they're cast at the wrong table in the right location, it's the use of ballots in which the arrows don't line up in urban areas, etc., etc.

The evidence for suppression and higher vote spoilage in urban areas is simply overwhelming.

[Machiavelli05]

39. Im not trying to tell you what is true...

Im trying to explain how the assholes are going to respond.. which is throw up their hands and say "oh my oh my I had nothing to do with this, if Id known about it sooner I would have stopped it... winkwink"

Thats the problem.

However, IF this is as widespread and far reaching and well orchestrated as people claim - there will be unimpeachable, concrete evidence that not even GWB and his hypocritical spin machine can refutiate and convince even the dumbest hillbilly. It just needs to be found.

[pointsoflight]

41. The message sent to voting democrats....

...is far more important than any criticism coming from republicans.

Will we lose voters if we object? I don't think so. The people who will be pissed at any objection will be republicans who won't vote for our candidates anyway.

Will we lose voters if we do not object? I definately think so, and if you don't see that, I respectfully suggest that you're not paying attention. We would lose minority voters who feel very strongly that they continue to be disenfranchised. They will either look elsewhere or just not come out to vote in the future (since they don't feel their votes get counted anyway). Either way, that CRUSHES our party, since 90% of the black vote has been going to democrats. We'd also lose some of our progressive base who feel the election issues should be a top priority--voters who have been screaming for election reform for years now, who feel we were cheated in 2000, and feel we are just sitting around as we continue to be cheated. Millions of votes are potentially lost by NOT taking action, in my opinion.

[Machiavelli05]

45. 35% will def vote vote Dem 35% will def vote GOP

Its the 30% undeclared w/ no party loyalties (or 3rd parties) that make or break elections. This 30% are also inclined to really hate bickering - which, at this point, this controversy will easily be made into.


GET UNIMPEACHABLE EVIDENCE.

[Pam-Moby]

29. Shorted machines

Fact, there were more machines in each precinct for the 2002 primaries than there was for the 2004 election. If this is not voter suppression-I don't know what is! Especially with it known that there was many more registered voters per precinct.

[Machiavelli05]

42. "oops made a mistake"

I swear I sent that memo out to fix that... oh drat my secretary's secretary was told to it... oh well Im firing he/she.. problem taken care of.

[SicTransit]

43. The machine distribution was the responsibility of local BOEs

which contained both Democrats and Republicans. In a lot of cases the person responsible for deciding how many machine go to which precinct was, in fact, a Democrat:

The longest lines in Ohio were in Franklin county. The Franklin county Board of Elections chairman is William A. Anthony Jr., who is also the chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party.

http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/27/20041127-B1-02.html

"Board of Elections Chairman William A. Anthony Jr. said he’s offended by accusations from "a band of conspiracy theorists."
Anthony, chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party, said long lines weren’t caused by the allocation of machines — a process controlled by a Democratic supervisor, he added — but by higher turnout, the overall lack of voting machines and a ballot that included more than 100 choices for some voters.

He said board members discussed renting punch-card machines to supplement the county’s 2,886 electronic voting booths, but they decided against the idea upon advice from Blackwell. LoParo said Blackwell would not have given such advice. "I doubt that was the case," he said yesterday.

A second type of machine would have been confusing, Anthony said, and the controversial punch cards likely would have brought objections from those asked to use them.

Anthony said he is personally offended by the allegations.

"I am a black man. Why would I sit there and disenfranchise voters in my own community?" he said. "I feel like they’re accusing me of suppressing the black vote. I’ve fought my whole life for people’s right to vote."

==============

With Democratic officials admitting responsibility for the long lines etc. do you really think this is "proof of fraud"?

[chapel hill dem]

49. I have been stuck on this issue as well

Each county's Democratic Party nominated two Democrats to serve on that county's BOE. Blackwell had a veto over the R's and D's choices, but if he used it (I do not know if he did or not), the county party would simply nominate another one of their own.

So logically if there were too few machines in a precinct, then it is the fault of two D's and two R's.

I can't believe that that many D's were moles or double agents...what is the answer that overcomes the county BOE parity?
Thanks.

[loudsue]

62. Have you not noticed who APPOINTED them to their positions?? Blackwell

And BLACKWELL is the one they answer to for their positions. This is discussed in Conyer's paper to the Dems.

:kick:

[pointsoflight]

37. Also, many already believe their government fucked them.

Just ask black voters from urban areas if they think their government adequately protects and defends their right to vote, as is guaranteed in the constitution.

If these voters aren't vigorously defended right now, and are instead slapped across the face like they were in 2000, we stand to lose them permanently. Given that 90% of black voters vote for democrats, and we're therefore talking about many millions of votes, we stand to lose much more by not objecting than by objecting.

[SueZhope]

32. I agree

and unless a senator or a few take a stand we can look forward to
more of the same kind of fraud .

there needs to be a full investigation , there are still
many unanswered questions and no one can prove the election was fair.
the good faith partisan election system does not work.

The disfranchisement is reason to stand in itself.
John Conyers and the many others are not doing this for entertainment .

if the average Joe actually new the facts I believe most people
would agree there was more then a few little glitches and this election
was extremely suspect.

Even many Republicans would be concerned for democracy.
its time to stand.

[Pam-Moby]

33. Amen

:headbang:

[papau]

52. Sorry - but thebody public convicts on circumstantial evidence all the

time.

If a Senator rises, it will be an easy sell.

[Machiavelli05]

53. no if a senator rises

the senator will ahve just as quick of political death as the whole scandal.

[papau]

54. Nonsense - GOP media errors die, and this is not a media error - it is the

standard GOP threat -

"we will get you unless you obey"

the fact that Dem Senators do obey is disgusting and must end.

Or the grass roots - responsible for most of the money in this go round - will walk.

[Machiavelli05]

64. Thats pretty paranoid

Democrats attack - but their attacks have recently been pacified by outmanuerving on the part of the GOP... sucks. Figure out a new strategy.

Dont blame the senators for being weak - they trully do try. They have just been bad with their strategy.

If your football team loses - its not always b/c they suck or didnt try, sometimes theyre just outplayed.

[electropop]

58. I agree Machiavelli/Rove is a good name for the poster.

Anybody in this forum who has looked at even 10% of the evidence will find Machiavelli's desperate claim just laughable. You're going to have to be more subtle and clever, M. Keep in mind that Rove, though apparently able to fool nearly 50% of the population, has never been subtle enough or clever enough to fool DU members.

[Machiavelli05]

63. before you keep making accusations

Keep in mind that I have donated to this site, which I see you have not. If you would like me to buy you a star, I'll consider it. Also keep in mind that I have repeatedly talked about working on Dem campaigns. Rove, nor any member of the GOP, I am willing to bet has not done any of that. Of course, MAYBE Im just a deep cover clandestine GOP Op... better keep your eyes open. Im a sneaky guy

[pointsoflight]

24. We have ROCK SOLID evidence of suppression and disenfranchisement.

Regardless of whether or not one thinks there's enough evidence of vote tampering, the suppression and disenfranchisement is certainly reason enough to object.

[Machiavelli05]

27. the events that resulted in suppression and disenfranchisement are...

but the causes of those events have no clear line of evidence back to a GOP source.

It will only fuel more debate about what we can do to improve the situation and will probably lead to buying MORE electronic voting machines. Yay for that :rolleyes:

[pointsoflight]

30. Just one example....

For the first time ever, Ohio implemented a new rule in which completely valid provisional ballots would not be accepted if they are cast in the wrong precinct, even if in the right county. This rule makes no sense in the case of a presidential election and it differentially suppressed urban votes. Why? Because in urban areas, it was common to have the voting location for different precincts in the same room of the same building! Thus, in the case of urban areas only, it was very easy for someone to cast a vote at the wrong precinct...they could simply go to the wrong table in the right room of the right building! It's estimated that thousands of black votes were lost in this way and it was the direct result of a completely new (and unneeded) rule put in place for the first time by Blackwell himself.

[Machiavelli05]

34. you have to prove that Blackwell's orders couldnt be interpretted to

actually serve a legitimate purpose.

Theyre not going to make sloppy enough mistakes to yield the type of evidence that is needed to convince the american public. Thats all Im saying.

I hope they did make very sloppy mistakes - but I doubt it seriously.

[pointsoflight]

44. You don't have to prove anything to show support for your voters.

This is not a court of law, it's about standing up for the voters that you were elected to represent!

[SicTransit]

48. When you object to election results from a state,

you are accusing the state of widespread electoral fraud, there are no ifs or buts. You *better* have hard proof that *can* stand in a court of law, or you will be forever branded a "tin-foil-hatter" by the MSM *and* by the voters you were elected to represent.

[shraby]

74. By your standard then, if Conyers

plans to challenge this election that means he has hard proof of widespread election fraud. I don't think he would take the drastic step of challenging if he didn't have rock solid evidence that would stand up in a court. He has enough that he feels it will stand up to a debate in both houses.

[beammeup]

61. Every theory has an alternate explanation? Even if that were true,

and it isn't, there is still enough evidence to convince any thinking person that the election was not fair. If you look at the entire body of evidence, like all those exit polls being wrong in the same direction, the lack of voting machines in Kerry precincts, illegal attempts to undermine the recount, the Warren County lockdown, Kerry votes switching to Bush, turnouts under 20% in Kerry precincts, the predominance of uncounted ballots in Kerry regions, etc., you can only conclude that there's something terribly wrong here.

[Machiavelli05]

66. ok traficant, try not insulting my intelligence

Actually a "thinking person" would consider and exhaust ALL possibilities before coming to a conclusion.

[Stand and Fight]

73. Sickening...

You're so transparent that it is sickening -- absolutely revolting. If you are so damn sure you're right, why do you continue to read and post on this forum? If you're a loyal progressive, then why do you fight every single damn effort that others are investing so much time and energy into? It seems to me that your user name aptly portrays the foundation of your character, but your attempts at theater are juvenile at best. If you are so against the idea of there having been election fraud go read and post somewhere else. Go flight a kite for all I care, but please enough of your opaque references to "concrete evidence" and debunking prima facie historical signs of fraud and, yes, crime.

[berniew1]

11. I think some Senators will contest because fraud & v.sup. is documented

If a Senator contests the electors and there is an investigation, I think Bush will be in a lot of trouble and Kerry is likely to win
because there was clearly documented widespread vote machine fraud that is known about down to the precinct and machine level and easily documented(some affidavits already taken) and likewise well documented systematic voter suppression of minorities, and other documented fraud collected by the Greens and Free Pres in Ohio, and by analysts in New Mexico. If the ceritification is contested, the widespread fraud and suppression will get more attention and publicity and more of public will become aware. I think the momentum would be unstopable- given Bush's already low popularity and major foulups in economy and overseas.
documentation
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19

[oneold1-4u]

13. Every representative Dem. + Rep. should stand!

They are called representatives because they are there to try to uphold the rights of every American citizen, (everyone who votes or not). An honest (??) person would stand to be counted, if only to give voice to change, of the whole process of elections, to create an infallible means of an honest election in what is supposed to be the greatest Democracy in the world. If we cannot accomplish that one thing, then this nation will quickly become a despot nation deserving of destruction by the worst of dictators.

[BigBearJohn]

15. AMEN!!! LET'S PUT THEM ALL ON NOTICE. I'M 100% BEHIND YOU

and we have to let them know we intend to do just that!!!!!
What good is being part of the Democratic party if they
don't stand up for principles of democracy?#!!!? Can
you even imagine the reaction of the leaders of the
Democrats if no one challenges the electors and then
come the NEXT election, we ALL decide to go green, and
push all our power, might and VOTES to the Green Party.
It gives me goosebumps. WE ALL HAVE TO PUT THEM ON NOTICE!!!
:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[darkism]

16. I trust Conyers

We will have a senator.

[FreepFryer]

18. In other words

If we don't get the president we want, we should jump off a cliff politically.

This and the eleventeen other posts of its' ilk make no sense for us to realistically preserve our values politically, as I'm in it for the long haul. A new party will only return us to Perot '08. I agree completely in the ravages of corporatism, it's a monster and it's across the aisles, but here's an analogy:

Don't blow up the house because the storm is coming and we didn't get out in time. The tsunami is coming in ten minutes. Do we go to higher ground, where our values are, and live to that higher standard, or do we implode on the shore in fear and recriminations?

The storm is Neo-Conservative Fascism. Contact your reps. Apply intelligent pressure. And on this one, wait until the 6th to see what happens.

[rainy]

23. The green party is the higher ground, the dems are corrupt

and in bed with corporate USA. With run-off voting we can stand with the just and still win elections.

[FreepFryer]

35. You are entitled to your opinion

And I have many Green values - but I value the Democrats' accumulated power still wielded in Washington enough not to turn my back on it. The high ground is civil rights.

My political experience tells me that we can focus on anti-corporatism within our mandate, rather than discarding the party.

The overwhelming majority of elected Dems are not corrupt. The system is most certainly broken, but we have many Democrats of great integrity and honor in office.

[enough already]

40. "Accumulated Power"

has corrupted the "leadership" of the party. If no Senator stands with the Black Caucus on the 6th, there is no good reason to stay.

[FreepFryer]

50. That's like cutting off your hands

when you gas up your car because gasoline is toxic and smells bad. Instead, why not write, propose and drive better energy policy?

Self-destructive overreaction, in my opinion. But understandable.

[elizm]

20. Well said...and I am with you 100%

The Democrats HAVE lost their way. And if they are too afraid to stand up on January 6th, that's it for me. I will continue to fight election fraud but it will be with a group who stands for something...And I will not be used by the Democrats another minute.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

21. We will be between a rock and a hard place. They want us

divided. Unfortunately, if the democratic party has foresaken us - and we bolt - we are split, and less a threat. We, in actuality won the election. We really do have the majority. We should stick with it and concentrate on educating all the democrats on what Bush stole from all of us. Like said above, I will not stop trying to get the word out

[elizm]

26. Will be less of a threat?

Seems to me we are NO threat now. And how are we going to educate all the Democrats...If they aren't paying attention NOW, what could possibly happen to change that short of our LEADERS taking a stand? The media sure as hell won't cover it..not now and not after Jan. 6...unless they have a REAL story. The Democratic party is DEAD if they don't stand.

[dano5050]

36. Small voice pipes up from the back of the room....

Um... I'm new here, and I think this forum is great.... but i have a simple question.

I grew up democratic... but recently I asked myself why I belonged to the party at all. I mean, what good is it to be a democrat? Isn't our party really... Independent? or maybe Human?

It seems to me that our biggest problem is that we label ourselves with something. So that republicans or whoever can say: "Those people over there!"

If we had no label at all... if we were just critically thinking, freely thinking citizens, that evaluated each new issue as it arose, wouldn't that be better?

Greens, libertarians... no better.

I realized that as a democrat, I was in a sense more guilty for the way things were than the republicans. Because i *knew* better. I knew that group-think would get us nowhere... etc. etc.

Not trying to be disruptive... just asking a heartfelt question.

D.

[info being]

57. You have to stand for something

I agree that the label "Independent" would be hard to slander...though I'm sure they'd find away (for example, independents are afraid to stand for anything).

You're never going to escape being labeled. We have find a way to win regardless.

[NVMojo]

47. that is my plan...

[Zeebo]

56. If the goal is to keep the Repugs in power, this is a great plan...

Divide the opposition.

There will be no senator standing up, but we must not abandon, we must continue to get the message out to all regarding not just election fraud but every neocon policy that is ruining this country. The only way to beat them in '06 and '08 is to stay together and fight. We must not divide!

[KoKo]

60. There will be a split. Hard to see how it will sort out yet. Progressive

Dems are trying for reform...it depends on the resistence they meet in the next year...

Some will definitely go Green. Some were anyway and only supported the ABB to get Kerry elected. Others are Socialists who should pick up some support from very disilluioned Dems on the Left who've just had it.

It will be interesting. If no Senator stands up, we don't have much left of the Democratic Party that many of us have belonged to. So a split will be better in the end for the health of America..Just my 2cents.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

70. About To Lose My Vote

If they don't care about my vote now, then they won't care when it's gone either.

[Triana]

68. TODAY is the day to e-mail/fax Senators and TELL THEM

Just that. Either shit or get off the pot. Either ACT - NOW or we abandon them and the party.

Collectively, they can be rendered irrelevant by their constituents and supporters if they don't DO THEIR JOB. THEIR JOB is to represent us and they are not doing it. If they don't - f*ck 'em.

I left the Dem party 4 years ago out of disgust for their lack of cajones/spine - whatever you want to call it. I still vote(ed) Dem and supported Dem/Progressive causes.

THIS TIME - I will not support Dems. I will support progressive causes and a REAL DEMOCRATIC candidate who also does so - and if he or she is a GREEN, then so be it.

TELL THEM NOW - to do their jobs, or we will vote them OUT.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

69. Nothing To See Here, Move Along

Without an investigation, we have as much chance as the woman in Colorado did of getting Kobe convicted. If you don't look deeper into something, you ain't going to find anything, and the democrats apparently don't seem to care.

I really shouldn't be so negative, but I fear a huge letdown in 50 hours when shrub is pushed through without any senate objections.

[genieroze]

71. We need to get the DLC aka: Repuke Lite out of the DNC. eom

[formernaderite]

72. I'm not convinced by any measure this will happen....Conyers is

the democratic party throwing us a bone. He's in a safe seat, from a progressive district. Your remedy is a bit extreme and naieve if you think the dems are "afraid" of some rich republicans. If you haven't noticed the democratic politicians are the RICH!

I'm more interested in who they'll "appoint" to the DNC chair.