Markos (from Daily Kos) bitch-slapped

[pointsoflight]

And rightly so.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/2220/02787

Riddle me this: how can we lobby for election reform unless we have a comprehensive record of what need to be reformed?

How can we go to Congress with a straight face and say "Hey, can you pass this bill for a paper trial....yeah, the last election apparently went smoothly, but we still need it..." No. It is imperative that we document every single case of intimidation, every instance of "vote hopping", every registration form that was torn because only then can we go to Congress, with a fucking truck full of documents and affidavits and say "Look at this mess! Now fix it!"

And that is why investigating possible fraud and documenting the irregularities in this election is so critical. While all of you have been glossing over the diaries, thinking "What the fuck, they're STILL talking about that?" we've been meticulously trying to do the job the media SHOULD be doing and documenting the stuff that you'll be using when you go begging for reform.

[Patsy Stone]

1. I gave her a 4... n/t

[RaulVB]

2. Thanks for posting this

What he has wrote today is shameful and has offended lots of the people visiting that site.

[crispini]

3. Oh, GREAT blog.

Snap snap! You go girl! Very discriminating analysis of "us" here:

"The reality is that lumping all of us into "fraudsters" or "wacko liberals" is remarkably stupid. There are three types of people that I've seen following the election issue. (1)the vast majority of people believe this was a dirty election, that widespread intimidation/suppression/irregularities occurred, but the numbers are just not there to put Kerry in the White House. So when you see an "Ohio" or "Election" diary, if you bothered to click on the link, you would realize that almost all the people discussing the issues there are doing it to seek justice and the truth, NOT for a Kerry presidency. (2) the second type of people following the election, a smaller percentage, are those who honestly don't know if there was fraud, and that if there was, and it's uncovered, it might put Kerry in the White House. This is a very very small percentage, and they are usually skeptical but holding out hope. (3) the final group, the one which apparently too many people think represents ALL of the people following the election, is a very very very small handful of people who honestly think there is enough evidence to date to prove Kerry won the election. "

[Straight Shooter]

4. Amazing how all of a sudden we get all this "hush, hush, little Dems"

It's like cockroaches crawling out of the woodwork, scurrying about, trying to discouage anyone from standing with Conyers.

Whatta buncha crapola. Like, it was only 4 years ago that bush stole an election, and we're supposed to sit around and say, "Well, we had irregularities in 2004, 99.999% of which favored bush, but hey, there was no fraud."

Yeah, right. Kos and all the other pundits of his ilk can bite me. x(

[RaulVB]

5. He was told to do this today

Just 3 days before a possible challenge, when he was silent about it for almost 2 months?

Just another "coincidence," I'm sure.

At least Josh Marshall has not insulted the people talking about fraud.

[Turn CO Blue]

7. Yep. Timing is everything.

I hardly go on dKos anymore...

[RaulVB]

8. You know, the funny thing is...

He talks like a "news anchor" for NBC!:eyes:

I have a password to post there but I never used it. His was the first site I visited looking for a place to talk about the fraud.

Glad I picked up his type before I posted there.

[Turn CO Blue]

10. There are some fabulous diaries on there...

extremely well-reasoned arguments and exploratories about every topic (Iraq, social security, progressive values), but currently I am interested in election fraud coverage. Until that issue is well-covered and well-recovered (cured) -- not much else seems important.

[KittyWampus]

6. Terry McCauliffe, Kerry Etc. ALL Mentioned 2000 Was Stolen.... BUT

2004 wasn't?

:eyes:

Maybe Terry and the rest of them just said that to get street cred with the grassroots...

[txindy]

9. Good. I hope it happens to him again and again n/t

[bleever]

11. Bout freakin' time.

dKos has turned out to be one of the biggest disappointments of this whole election debacle for me.

The only saving grace is that it's how I found my way here.

He's welcome to preside over the blogosphere's hip examination of how we got raped: we were wearing the wrong clothes, we didn't fight back, we fought too hard, maybe we deserved it, maybe if we fine-tuned our message, maybe this, maybe that.

What a crock of shit.

[RaulVB]

12. He likes the "media hype"

His posts remind me of that TV show, celebrity type..."EXTRA!, EXTRA!"

Along with music...:crazy:

[loudsue]

27. Wow, bleever: You just stated EXACTLY how it feels....date rape, no?

:kick::kick:

[pixelthief]

13. Over 700 comments now...

Last time I checked, kos' little diatribe had racked up over 700 comments. We let him know what's what.

[RaulVB]

15. Yep, he really messed it up with his comments

You can't play a "dual", ambiguous role, I like it but I don't, "I'm your leader but don's ask me to lead" type of pre-school game with people that is very honest in what they write or believe.

That guy should apologize for his comments.

[Nothing Without Hope]

14. Thanks for the heads-up. I've just left a post at that Kos thread

I REALLY like what she said and hope Kos actually listens to her. It's disastrous for progressives to be divided against each other like this.

Since it's alluded to in that Kos thread as in so many other places, I want to mention my opinion of the conspiracy stories of Wayne Madsen. I have strong reservations about believing what he says -- maybe it's all true but I've not seen compelling evidence. Instead, the response to Madsen's stories has had the effect of polarizing the entire community of people concerned about the legitimacy of the election and getting them labeled as tin foil hatters by the rest of the country. IT HAS ALSO HAD THE EFFECT ON MANY -- AND KOS IS APPARENTLY ONE OF THEM -- OF MAKING THEM BELIEVE THAT THERE IS NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE ELECTION FRAUD ON A SIGNIFICANT SCALE. This is a total disaster.

Here is the text of the post I left in that thread at Kos:
---------------------------------
I agree completely, and with sadness about Markos

I used to read his blogs every day, but because he has so pointedly distanced himself from taking the massive fraud and corrupt voter suppression in the election seriously, I found it increasingly difficult to take HIS opinions and news selections seriously.

I doubt he is going to listen to what you are saying. Probably thinks you're part of a minority lunatic tin foil hat fringe. BUT HE'S WRONG. And he's not only wrong, he's missing the boat on one of the most, if not THE most important crises in this country. Going along to get along is not going to work.

Thank you for your post. With tough love, you're supposed to say what needs to be said even if it hurts. I hope Kos can take it and that he pays attention. If he responds with some of his pooh-poohing about how the evidence is weak or that the numbers involved are too small to make a difference anyway so who cares, you might plug him into the latest in the series of careful papers from Bob Fitrakis and his colleagues (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1065) from The Free Press (there will be another installment tomorrow, Jan 4).

Best to you, and best to all the Kos community including Markos himself.

[RaulVB]

16. Thanks for visiting and a petition

Please, could you tell anybody that wants to join to come here to talk about the fraud or the election in general?

I see many people deeply offended by KOS that feels a bit too sad. They have a place here and many other venues to participate!

Regards.

[Nothing Without Hope]

17. Kos used to be my mainstay, now DU is.

I saw posts at that Kos thread that mentioned DU as a place that takes the election fraud seriously and welcomes people who want to discuss it seriously. But you're right, some of the posters there might not realize what DU is like if they haven't experienced it themselves. I'll look for the right moment to say some more about DU at Kos.

It would be ideal if Markos can be educated to understand that he is WRONG about the magnitude of the fraud and suppression in this election. I don't subscribe to the insulting claims that Kos has been somehow seduced by the Dem "collaborators" or the Repubs themselves, I think he probably honestly believes that people who believe the election was stolen are in lunatic fringe. But if he believes that, then he has NOT read carefully the documentation that is now available. Perhaps he read the Madsen stuff, got turned off, and tuned out everything else. If so, Kos is not being a journalist, let alone an investigative journalist, and he needs to open his eyes.

[bleever]

20. So, maybe Kos got Rather-gated by the Madsen story.

Curiouser, and curiouser.

[Nothing Without Hope]

23. Not exactly Rathergated, and he may not WANT to see

In my simplistic analysis, made without speaking with Markos himself, I see two main contributions to his doubts about the seriousness of the election fraud. For what they're worth, which may not be much, there they are:

1. The Madsen factor. Markos may have read the many excited stories and posts about the Madsen reports that circulated around the blogs, then read what was available of the Madsen stories themselves. I did, and my response was -- and still is --WHOAAAA!! Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but without solid evidence it is a wild, and not too good, thriller novel plot. So I put it in its own category in my mind and withhold judgment pending further developments. Unfortunately, the Madsen stories and the stories about the Madsen stories have produced a consensus in many --and I think Kos is one -- that ALL serious discussion of fraud on a scale large enough to steal the election is tinfoil hat territory. Kos doesn't want to be a fool, he equates belief in massive election fraud as foolish, therefore he doesn't believe it.

2. The "tell me it isn't true" factor. Markos may on some level not WANT to believe that the corruption is as serious as it is. After all, this is our beloved country, and it is heartrending to see it hijacked by a bunch of violent, greedy criminals who are able to manipulate the voting process at the core of democracy. That would be a self-perpetuating state if not stopped, and it would be hard to stop because they control all branches of the government, right? A waking nightmare. I think a lot of people feel this way. They WILL not listen because they don't want to believe something so awful. It's a situation best summed up, I think, by the Navajo proverb "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." I hope Markos and enough other people open their eyes, because it IS that awful and we need their participation in bringing the country back to the rule of law.

So not quite a Rathergate, because I doubt Markos or a lot of other people EVER believed everything Madsen was claiming. But the whole thing was enough to turn them off the whole idea of a serious selection fraud incident engineered by conspirators bent on stealing the election.

Nice Cheshire Cat pic, by the way.

Time to turn off the computer for the night. Be well.
:boring:

[noxes]

19. A Disgruntled Kossack

Count me in. I was a dedicated kossack for over a year, but I've been coming here more often these days as he & the other site police have really pissed me off.

I'm not much of a poster - more a lurker , but I've found DU to have better boards of late.

I guess I was always a bit upset at the way the so-called 'lunatic fringe' was treated over at Kos. I usually end up on that side of the argument, so I didn't really engage in the community much beyond reading diaries of interest.

It's too bad, really. Though I tend to come more from the Mike Ruppert/Peter Dale Scott doom and gloom end of the spectrum I do also have hope for us, which is why I seek out the more mainstream left - they tend to have a more positive perspective. I think that some combination of the two perspectives is really what we need to stave off our 40 year descent into fascism .

So I guess I'm just saying hi all and maybe I'll see you around in my spare time.

[bleever]

21. Welcome to DU, noxes!

:hi:

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. Welcome and congrats on your first DU post. Too bad about Kos.

I hope you find the community here as supportive, invigorating, and informative as I have.

I do believe that whatever the truth behind the Madsen stories, a lot of people have been turned off by them to the degree that they have dismissed ALL serious discussion of election fraud. I really don't understand their reaction. There is so much OTHER evidence both of fraud and of racist voter suppression, and they seem to be ignoring it.

I do wonder sometimes how much of it is that they don't WANT to believe the election process is as corrupted as it was in the 2004 election. My "progressive" sister-in-law laughed in my face when I replied to her questions about my opinion of the election that I believed that it was stolen. "Come on!" She said. "This is still America!" This attitude made for a rather tense visit, and more seriously, it seriously compromises the progress of coalition building.

Like the Navajo proverb says, "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." I am hoping very hard that Kos and all the other people of integrity in this country who are avoiding the election fraud issue decide to open their eyes.

[noxes]

24. I wish they'd all opened their eyes

in 2000. Then again, the blogging community didn't exist then - it was a loose association of e-mail lists, etc.

While I agree that the Madsen articles probably didn't help, I wouldn't totally discount the Madsen articles. He is a very good and respected journalist who I used to follow closely on Counterpunch several years back

Whatever the case, the fraud issue really needs support or we're all seriously f***ed.

[Nothing Without Hope]

25. Me too. And I don't totally discount Madsen.

I'm just withholding judgment on his story pending further developments. I can't tell whether he is onto something huge and true or whether he has gone over some kind of cliff, with or without ulterior motives, so I can't come down on one side or the other in what has developed into quite a fight, unfortunately.

I figure I can't help Madsen, even if I assume he needs help and that he's on the level. (Which I DON'T assume.) But I can try to support in any way I can getting the word out about the other SOLID EVIDENCE of election fraud and voter suppression. I do believe, based on this evidence, it was of a magnitude that resulted in the election being stolen. So I don't need Madsen's stories to convince me that we are in trouble and that the democratic process has been hijacked. This is not a situation that will repay quietly going along and accepting that "the Republicans have won." If we give up, we lose completely.

In case you didn't see it earlier, here's the link to the latest installment of the ongoing series on the election written by Fitrakis et al. group at The Free Press. It is part 1 of a two-part update in the series; the next will be publshed tomorrow.
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1065

And also, in case you didn't see it the other times it's been posted here, including by Elizabeth Edwards, here are the words of another concerned citizen who also faced some scary times:
A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt......If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake.
--Thomas Jefferson

[noxes]

26. Madsen

Yeah, I agree. We don't need Madsen's articles to really prove fraud, but they sure would be handy for throwing these criminals in jail where they belong...

[Nothing Without Hope]

28. I agree. But it's too bad more people don't see that...

...as you say, we don't NEED his articles to be true, there's so much independent evidence. It's as if a lot of people dismiss all of it together, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

And it would be lovely to have all his stories proven and the criminals brought to justice. But I'm not counting on it.

Even if things don't go as we hope on Jan 6 and if Bush is inaugurated without argument on Jan 20, the fight to get the truth out is still in its early stages. It's hard going and will be even harder if Jan 6 turns out to be a repeat of that tragic Congressional Black Caucus scene in Fahrenheit 9/11, but I really don't see how we can give up without also accepting the end of democracy and all hope of a tolerable future for this country.

Sorry, I do get to ranting worse than usual at this time of the morning. Time to turn off the computer. I MEAN it this time!

Best to you. See you around DU.

(self-edited to fix a particularly annoying typo)

[newyawker99]

30. Hi noxes!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Wilms]

18. Take that, and the "response to Georgia10" as a compliment.

Ridiculous arguments that will satisy all that are willing to eat a ridiculous argument.

Let 'em choke.

[Carolab]

29. The Nation wrote on kos

not too long ago as not exactly a progressive blog, but more "mainstream" Dem...money-collecting machine

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041122&c=3&s=sifry

"As a result, the Kos community has become a very efficient collaboration engine--not only for pooling money for candidates (at least $600,000 has been given through the site) but also for rapid fact-checking of political statements and news stories, quick dissemination of news of voting irregularities and brainstorming of campaign themes. During the presidential debates, Kos's daily traffic surged to more than a half million visits. The DailyKos, to be sure, is still an egocentric organization dominated by one person who is not without blemishes, like refusing to disclose who his paying political clients are. But his success shows the power of an open network approach to organizing."