A message to Bill Clinton, Michael Moore, Al Franken and...

[Ryder911]

all the other dem/liberals who are in denial about what happened in Ohio.

COUNT THIS!!!

<>

This is not about Kerry winning or losing the election. Its about standing up to systematic voter fraud. If this happened to Repugs, you better believe that they would be screaming. Stand now or forever be the "spineless liberal" they have labeled you!

[alexisfree]

1. very powerfull pic!

Make me cry... because I remember how thrilled we were to vote for the first time....madate!!!! my ass!!:nuke:

[Raster]

4. It is gonna take the citizens of this country to stand up and LOUDLY

inform our government that this election bullshit is OVER!!! We want fair, clean, impartial, efficient elections in this country. ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL THAT DOES NOT ACTIVELY SUPPORT AND WORK TO ACHIEVE THIS END, SHOULD BE OUT ON THEIR ASSES!!!!!

[alexisfree]

15. thats what I doing...

wherever come in DU to sing up or DU pools or fax info or go to other websites, making a calls to those congress guys......we are doing it and some day I will be proud to tell my children mom and dad were fighting for democracy....:mad:

[thoughtanarchist]

2. Good post Ryder

:dem:

[Benhurst]

3. Thank you! NT

[helderheid]

5. Great picture

"fair and square" my ass.

[earth mom]

10. You said it!

Fair and Square My Ass!

And why weren't pictures like this shown on MSM?

Oh, I'm so f-in angry about this crap!

[denese]

20. Pictures like this will never be shown on MSM

Remember January 20, 2000?
It was Michael Moore who showed us pictures of that. Not MSM.
I was shocked the first time I saw it in F 9-11.

[tk2kewl]

6. Absolutely no reason for this.

Maybe elections should be held on Wal-Mart checkout lines. They'd move 'em through.

[cali]

7. It is a powerful

and very sad picture. But does it constitute vote fraud?

[KittyWampus]

25. In Part, Yes... But Then, You Willfully Ignore The Evidence When It's

presented to you.

[cali]

37. I haven't willfully ignored anything

I've reviewed the evidence presented here and on other sites, and found it not persuasive enough. Your telling me that I'm willfully ignoring the evidence is about as meaningful as my telling you that you're willfully ignoring the lack of evidence in the form witnesses, cracked code, etc. We view the evidence differently. Is that so difficult to comprehend?

[Ganja Ninja]

8. That picture is worth a thousand words.

Voter disenfranchisement by making the right to vote impossible to exercise. The proof of why we need to challenge the Ohio electors is right before your eyes.

[Heewack]

9. How does that prove election fraud?

We control those counties. Are you suggesting fellow Democrats participated in fraud for *? Ridiculous!

[fooj]

14. not as ridiculous as having a surplus of machines...

and not releasing them!!! Must have been a long, long night!


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[Ganja Ninja]

21. First you assume this is a Democratic controlled voting precinct.

How do you know that? Second, If and election is held and certain voters are allowed to vote while other voters discouraged from voting how is that a free and fair election? Your looking for a legal definition of fraud but an election that isn't free and fair is a fraud. There may not be any single act of fraud but the result is a fraud none the less.

[Heewack]

23. I have seen that picture before and it was from Cuyahoga county.

And yes we control that county.

I live in a Democratic city and my wife had to wait for nearly three hours and the default was set to *, does that mean that is proof of orchestrated fraud? Hell no. And certianly not actionable evidence.

So far everything that has been documented are very concerning but do not amount to election fraud. We must fix those problems!

[KittyWampus]

27. You Are Completely Wrong About Evidence Of Orchestrated Fraud...

and how machines were allocated.

And what was wrong with those machines.

[Ganja Ninja]

35. The chairman of the Cuyahoga County board of elections is ...

a Republican named Robert T Bennett and the evidence of fraud is right in the picture.

[vi5]

11. I understand that's indicative of a broken system...

And I'm all in favor of fixing it. But I'm not sure how that picture proves or is even indicative of fraud.

[Ryder911]

13. Systematic suppression of Democratic - African American

precincts is Fraud. This just didn't happen in a single location and it certainly doesn't appear to be an accident.

[vi5]

19. But couldn't it also be higher than normal turnout?

Again...broken system: yes. Fraud: that picture is not exactly evidence of it.

[KittyWampus]

29. Higher Than Normal? It Was Known In Advance Registration Was Up

[vi5]

31. That makes it stupidity, poor planning...

any number of things. It doesn't make it evidence of fraud.

[rodeodance]

32. deliberate non planning is hard to prove-fine line between studidy and

no action. Again hard to prove.

[madison2000]

12. Can you imagine the noise we would have heard if there was a line

like that in a rich Republican suburb full of people who are used to billing by the hour for their time?

[SueZhope]

16. wow thats some picture..thanks

I would love to see all our Dem elected officials wait on this line to vote for themselves.

What a disgrace, its sickening that any one can call those that stand up
and fight this ugliness conspiracy theorists.

This was no accident. they new dame well about the turn out expected.

[cyberpj]

17. Thank you for that - how do we get US MEDIA on board !?

Photos like this should be (should have been) shown!

[McCamy Taylor]

18. Good one!

[Stevepol]

22. A better way to show "systematic" fraud is to use Freeman's figures.

Dr. Freeman gives the statistics this way: In FL, the differential (given on a somewhat dubious later exit poll after an only slightly earlier poll had predicted a Kerry win by 2%) predicted by the exit polls was 0.1% for Bush; Bush won the state by 5%, a 4.9% difference in Bush's favor. According to Freeman, the chances of that happening given the size of the sample and so on, was less than two in a hundred (.0164). In OH, the differential predicted by the exit polls was Kerry by 4.2%. Bush won by 2.5%, a differential of 6.7% for Bush. The odds of this happening by chance: less than one in a hundred (.0073). In PA, the differential predicted by the exit polls was Kerry by 8.7%. Kerry won by 2.2%. The differential between the exit polls and the actual tallies was in Bush's favor by 6.5%. The chances of this happening by chance: slightly more than one in a hundred (.0126). The chance of any two of these statistical anomalies coccuring together are 5,000 to 1; the chance of all three occurring together, he gave as 662,000 to 1. However, his original final calculation was 250 million to one. He supposedly tacked on a "design" adjustment or something like that to lower the final result. But mathematically speaking, as I understand it, there's no reason to put that on there. It's just done becausee, I guess, of the supposed or alleged unreliability of social science data like this.

[Salomonity]

26. those stats don't mean what you think they mean

All that Freeman can compute is the chance of the exit polls being off that much due to sampling error. There are a lot more legitimate exit polling errors than that:

In particular, we don't know whether they picked representative precincts, and we don't know that they adjusted for precinct size and we don't know that there were equal response rates between republicans and democrats.

Exit polls just don't get you from here to there.

[thanatonautos]

42. What we do know is that polling is a very competitive business

based on accuracy, and that Warren/Mitofsky have
been in that business for a very long time. They've
had time to learn the business very well indeed.

In particular, we don't know whether they picked
representative precincts, and we don't know that they
adjusted for precinct size and we don't know that
there were equal response rates between republicans
and democrats.

We don't know, and Mitofsky has intimated that
unequal response rates may have been a problem,
but, frankly, that explanation is implausible
on its face.

The idea that they didn't pick representative
precincts is possible, but highly implausible,
given the experience they have in the business;
that they didn't adjust for precinct size is
simply ridiculous.

Warren has been in the business for a very long time
and his exit polls have been significantly different
from the official results once in that time
that I've heard of. It was in an election in
St. Louis that later turned out to have been fraudulent.

Exit polls just don't get you from here to there.

Where is `here' and where is `there'?

Exit polls get me here: I do not trust the
official count, and I have seen no good
explanations for the discrepancies as yet.

(Excepting the putative explanation that has been
mooted that the exit polls that were published were
not the actual exit polls.)

Yours is no exception.

[Stevepol]

47. Your post is BS.

Freeman deals with the various purported explanations for the observed anomalies and dismisses them each in turn. I doubt you've even read his paper. He dealt with the sampling problem but the purpose of his paper was to do exactly what you say he couldn't do. I'd rather trust a PhD in math from MIT over some Freeper mole who likely failed high school algebra.

[merwin]

24. Can anyone SOURCE that picture?

That picture won't do any good unless the source of it is known

[Amaryllis]

28. Will Pitt was asking for pix; anyone know which thread that was? This

should be sent to him.

[genieroze]

30. "A message to Bill Clinton, Michael Moore, Al Franken and..."

Edited to add. If you really believe the 2004 sElection was fair and NO fraud occured.

[genieroze]

36. Add this: Moore's to do list on his web page

Calls for
Jan 6: Take Action on Election Violations: Block Congressional Certification of the Electoral College!

Ohio Voter Suppression Videos: QuickTime, more, Windows Part 1, Part 2, Conyers Hosted 'What Went Wrong in Ohio' Forum

We have the representatives; we still need a senator to CONTEST THE VOTE.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

It doesn't seem like he's ignoring voter fraud to me. At least he's linking it.

[anamandujano]

41. We know fat lazy cats when we see them.

They only care about their careers, how much more money and fame they can accumulate.

[theboss]

33. That shows a screwed-up system, not fraud

Which has been my point since the beginning.

Yes, it is tragic and borderline criminal that black people in the inner cities had to wait eight hours to vote while white people in the suburbs like me where in and out in 20 minutes.

But that's not fraud. It may be an equal protection issue if you can find intent. And I don't know how you can find that level of intent, considering that Democrats control most of the cities where these problems took place.

What that picture proves is that:

a) that district has some awesome citizens, and
b) that district needs more machines.

[Eric J in MN]

34. The Constitution says that states must provide the Equal

Protection of the Laws.

Not that it's for them to fail to provide Equal Protection, as long as it was unintentional.

[theboss]

38. You're right; I was sloppy in stating that

What I was trying to say is that this is a general voting rights issue. And the courts would likely order the states provide more machines in the future. But unless you can find some specific intent in this specific instance to suppress voters, the courts are not going to alter this specific election.

[seabeyond]

43. do you ignore, machines were taken out of these areas

a put into repblican strong holds create the shortage. and done by sec of election repug and bush campaigner

do you know this

or does that not fit into your agenda, message. to be ignored. cause a lot of people say a lot of things as they ignore the facts

[seabeyond]

44. secondly

gthis is the obvious, voter suppression. i think clearly from day one and before in early election, shit before that..........suppression, intmidation AND fraud

we are not just seeing one means of stealing an election

this is a real duh, but ALL of them are wrong

or do you cotton to one or two of them. shrug a shoulder.

[seabeyond]

45. btw, we cant get dems, repugs, or the people or media

to even say this isnt ok, outloud. people across the nation dont even know about this happening in our election. the leaders are not even talking about this. the media is ignoring and dismissing this.

lets start at the beginning, lets just as a nation say stopping blacks from voting, and creating too long lines in freezing weather outside for hours is cruel and unusal punishent for our right to vote

is that asking too much. is that being a kok or dissident or conspiracy theorist, for this to not be good enough for my fellow american

can i say wrong

[Straight Shooter]

39. Oh my Gawd, look at all those irregularities waiting in line to vote for *

/sarcasm off

We can debate whether there was fraud or not until we're blue in the face and our tongues are paralyzed, but no one has ever explained why all the so-called "irregularities" fell in bush's favor.

[Raster]

48. that, my friend is THE SMOKING GUN.

The anomalies, inconsistencies, surprises, whatever you call them, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS favored bush*. In a reality-based world, the chances of this happening without outside manipulation is almost nonexistent.

[seabeyond]

40. this is what needs to be seen

to say stolen election from day one, i would say, the lines alone tell a story and we all saw it with our lives.

wtf is your problem. be it repug dem independent, i dont care, be offended. pissed me off, pisses me off

[Generator]

46. Yes

Damn it all. It's not about winning anymore as if it could be.

It's about doing the right thing.

Ever hear of the civil rights movement? It's still going on.

I applaud everyone that cares about doing the right thing.

There is no failure here, sweetheart, unless you quit.

MLK didn't fucking live and die so we could continue to be sold out by the likes of appeasers like Clinton et all.

And what do they all have in common? White skin.

And what do all those contesting have in common? Black skin.

Wake up-Democrats are becoming the N*ggers of the world.