Do Long Lines Prove Election Fraud?

[KaliTracy]

Someone posted this question today.

I have a math problem to submit to you all. I'm doing this quickly on my lunch break, so if you see errors, please feel free to correct.

I don’t know if it will answer the question, but it might at least open the discussion….

Questions for the Ohio Eighth Grade Proficiency Test.

The Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell is responsible for creating and getting rid of precincts. It is stated that often a precinct is merged with another if there is low voter turnout in one. Since the 1980’s voter turnout for Presidential Elections has been in the 73% range.

1. If the polls are open from 7 am to 7 pm, and there is an allotment of 5 minutes to vote per voter, how many people should be able to vote per machine?

A. 1,000
B. 50
C. 144
D. 250

2. If a precinct has 1,500 authentic registered voters, and a turn out of at least 70% is expected per precinct, how many machines would need to be available for the 12 hour day to meet that expected percentage?

A. 21
B. 11
C. 8
D. 3

3. If a district has 1400 precincts, and there are 1,000,000 authentic registered voters, and the precincts were divided evenly, about how many voters would be expected at each precinct if at least 70% showed up in each one (assuming there was an even distribution of voters to precincts)?

A. 199
B. 299
C. 499
D. 699



4. If at least 70% of the voters showed up in each of these precincts in number 3 above, then how many machines should be available per precinct?
A. 3
B. 5
C. 8
D. 10


5. If a person waits for 3 hours to vote, and it takes approximately 144 people to vote per hour, and there are 2 machines, then approximately how many people are in front of the person waiting to vote?

A. 144
B. 288
C. 400
D. 800


6. Whose responsibility is it to ensure we have equal access and opportunities to vote?

A. The Voter’s mother
B. The Voter
C. The Secretary of State
D. County Boards of Elections
E. B and D
F. C and D


Pencils down.




(Answers: 1-C; 2-8; 3-C; 4-B; 5-D, 6-C)

[Zeebo]

1. Nope...

There is a possibility that it was really bad planning. I remember some posts from a democratic election worker that was surprised at the long lines and told Ohio BOE election officials that they didn't need anymore voting machines when some were offered up.

Does it seem "fishy"? Absolutely. But proof of fraud? Wish it was.

I do hope there are independent investigative journalists that are trying to turn over every rock and interview election officials, voters, voting companies employees, and anyone else that might get us a better picture of what happened.

[KaliTracy]

2. Bad Planning? Possibly... but when that planner is planning to run

for governor, one has to wonder why he thinks he would do such a good job running the state?

and for while I'm not sure it's the word "Fraud" -- I do think that it borders on something that is not something we should brush under the rug and forget about.

To think it was merely bad planning is to take all of the information MSM has given us without looking deeper. I am calling for investigation.... but.... if anything will come out if it is another story.

[dano5050]

57. LINK: Bad Planning Would Happen Randomly

http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/columbus.htm

[Darknyte7]

6. The Voting Rights Act....

made it unlawful for minorities to receive disparate treatment by any election process -- no willful or negligent act need be found to have occurred -- a disparate circumstance or result is sufficient for violation.

There's a summary of the Voting Rights Act at this link:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro_b.htm

So I would say the answer to the question is yes. At a minimum, we have prima facie evidence that fraud occured.

[EuroObserver]

47. Yes, that's always seemed clear to me

Call it fraud or call it (more correctly?) disenfranchisement or voter suppression (targeted) this clearly invalidated the election where this happened, and, if done deliberately, was a serious crime; and if deliberately targeted against certain, let's say 'social strata' or 'racial' (or 'ethnic', whatever) groups I think most people in your country would consider that to be a very serious crime, with possibly far-reaching consequences.

[Orsino]

8. Malice Not Necessary...

to explain the situation above, I agree. If the precincts with the long lines were systematically neglected, we might simply be seeing the result of inertia. Wealthier and whiter districts get the money and the planning, and the rest of the voters can go whistle.

It would seem to violate the Voting Rights Act, and the spirit of equal treatment under law. It's very convenient for the rich white men who run things, but may not be an example of *overt* racism/classism/partisanship. It just happens to stink the same way, and will never be changed by the current power structure--especially by any voting.

[KaliTracy]

11. how about if said SOS got rid of over 900 in 1998-2000 cycle and

got rid of another 700 or so in in the 2000 to 2004 cycle and gained over 800,000 voters from 1998-2004?


(Average from the 80's was adding or deleting about 50-175 at a time...son't have the numbers in front of me. might have been a little (not much) higher than that)

[mod mom]

18. BAbsolutely proof! The machines were not evenly distributed

they were (intentionally-why else would it always favor the repugs) placed to supress the dem vote! Isn't limiting a certain segment of the population voting rights fraud? Where was equal protection under the law? What about the challenges-and the use of provisional ballots? When eligible voters who want to vote can't-it's fraud by the party who didn't allow them to vote!

[MarkusQ]

19. Only works...if it's not your JOB to do it.

If I'm buying something at the store, and instead of handing the money to the clerk I put it back in my pocket, that's a mistake--or bad planning. The clerk is supposed to say "Uh, excuse me sir, you haven't paid yet."

But if the clerk put the money in his pocket, that's theft.

Doing something "fishy" is fine, unless part of your job is to prevent fishyness.

--MarkusQ

[Peace Patriot]

31. No, there is no possibility that it was bad planning.

All the long lines due to lack of voting machines occurred in black and poor neighborhoods, with high Democratic registration--and many voting machines were meanwhile warehoused, and the elections officials unresponsive to requests.

In addition, all the shorting on the number of precincts occurred in black and poor neighborhoods, and those with high Democratic registration, such as student areas.

In addition, all the voter challenges that resulted in thousands of provisional ballots, even for duly registered voters, occurred in black and poor neighborhoods, and those with high Democratic registration, such as student areas.

In addition, all the instances of elections officials or others giving voters wrong information or no information on where to vote occurred in black and poor neighborhoods, and those with high Democratic registration, such as student areas.

In addition, prejudicial, arbitrary, last minute rules for voting registration all hurt black, minority, poor and student voting populations the most.

In addition, the numerous instances of touchscreens changing peoples' votes for president virtually all changed Kerry votes to Bush votes--all day long, often with no attempt at repair. Odds against that are astronomical.

I could go on. What we have here is an unmistakable pattern of egregious violations of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, mostly instigated by pro-Bush Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, with a similar patten in Florida, spearheaded by Jeb Bush.

The reason why black voters took such a hit of vote suppression is that they vote 70% to 90% Democratic.

I have not seen anything like this since the poll taxes, unpassable literacy tests, beatings, killings and other foul means by which white southern bigots prevented blacks from voting in the 1950s and 1960s. Those actions were the reason why the Voting Rights Act was passed.

I worked for that goal when I was young--the Voting Rights Act. I was a civil rights worker in Alabama. It is saddening and infuriating to see all the suffering and struggle that went into winning the right to vote for black citizens tossed aside by the BushCons without a thought, and with hardly a whimper from the once great Democratic Party.

[Pooka Fey]

52. Great post. Thank you. It is so fucking frustrating for me to hear

21st century Americans DEBATING this issue. I used to think that REAL progress had been made (I'm white) and I'd hear black people saying, "NO - things haven't changed that much" and I'd wonder why they said that. Now I FUCKING know why and I'm sick and disgusted. Seeing black people on TV and making millions of dollars hasn't changed the fundamental attitude of most white Americans that much. Racism in this country is like the fucking herpes virus - maybe your face isn't covered with nasty cold sores today; but come tommorrow there's a whole host of them ready to burst out. Jesus Christ. God help us all. Sorry about all the cursing. I'm so angry today I'm crying.

[berniew1]

97. Actually in this case systematic suppression is proven - see links

at http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19
and http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm columbus & cleveland

and New Mexico at
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf

and Florida at

www.flcv.com/palmbeao.html
www.flcv.com/browardo.html
and www.voteprotect.org maps florida county

[Walt Starr]

3. Poor planning is not election fraud

and remember, the Democrats were part of the planning process!

[pgh_dem]

12. Democrats in the planning process

Mr Starr
I wonder if you could direct me (and others interested) in some documentation that Dems were actually included in the process of deciding the allocation of voting machines.
So far, all I've seen is claims that Dems were on the Boards of Elections, but have yet to see a statement from one of those Dems who has said 'Yep, we all decided (such and such precinct) didn't need even as many machines as they had for the primaries.'
Even as a preface to a statement like 'I guess we were wrong and planned so badly as to disenfranchise thousands of voters. Here's my resignation letter', etc
Mostly, I've just seen repubs point at how many dems would 'have to be in on this huuuuuuge conspiracy'.

[SicTransit]

50. Here is your documentation:

The Franklin county Board of Elections chairman is William A. Anthony Jr., who is also the chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party - and he says the person who was responsible for the allocation of machines was a Democratic supervisor.

http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/27/20041127-B1-02.html

"Board of Elections Chairman William A. Anthony Jr. said he’s offended by accusations from "a band of conspiracy theorists."
Anthony, chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party, said long lines weren’t caused by the allocation of machines — a process controlled by a Democratic supervisor, he added — but by higher turnout, the overall lack of voting machines and a ballot that included more than 100 choices for some voters.

He said board members discussed renting punch-card machines to supplement the county’s 2,886 electronic voting booths, but they decided against the idea upon advice from Blackwell. LoParo said Blackwell would not have given such advice. "I doubt that was the case," he said yesterday.

A second type of machine would have been confusing, Anthony said, and the controversial punch cards likely would have brought objections from those asked to use them.

Anthony said he is personally offended by the allegations.

"I am a black man. Why would I sit there and disenfranchise voters in my own community?" he said. "I feel like they’re accusing me of suppressing the black vote. I’ve fought my whole life for people’s right to vote."

[KaliTracy]

53. Allocation of Machines -- in Franklin only -- Who merged Precincts? Who

approved it all (it wasn't only Frankly that lost Precincts and machines? Who "appointed" William A. Anthony Jr. to his position?

While we are on it -- why isn't a list with every precinct, number of voters per precinct, number of machines per precinct, actual (not supposed) allocation of #of voters per machine released?

This is not rocket science! -- and I dare say, it's not even eighth grade math.

WHO is responsible
WHO is accountable
WHO made the decisions
WHO refused to allow more machines go to Franklin county, even as there were some in warehouses?

WHY did so many macines happen to fail in Lucas County
WHY were there so many machines available in West Chester (Butler County) when people were at the Jackson Rally yesterday representing their own area of Butler (I didn't get a chance to speak to them)? What happened there?

WHY weren't populations changes (the excuse for Mason (Warren) county is that an upswell of people moved in) taken in account?

HOW difficult is it to receive a registration request from a person, have someone input it into an Access Database, and then Do a Query after the registration period is over to see how many people are allocated per precinct?

I am not a math person - I am not a statistics person - I am only saying that to this layperson, that the numbers look WAY screwy, and that this STARTED in 1998-1999!! And that Blackwell started in office in 1998. Yes, possibily it is coincidental.

WHY are published accounts about the problems focusing on the "merging of the precincts" in anticipation of the e-vote machines, when there are NO EXCUSES for what happened in 1999, and the loss of over 900 precincts?

WHY was there only a 67% turnout in 2000? How long were the lines then? Where were the lines? Where were the losses?

How did Ohio lose over 1500 precincts in less than 10 years, even as it gained over 800,000 voters?

I do not have any answers -- but I do not think this matter can be dismissed unless someone actually investigates it to get answers...

[SicTransit]

55. KaliTracy -

Democratic party appointed Willian A. Anthony to his position. Blackwell had the right to reject him. He didn't.

The highest County Democratic official is telling you that it was Democrats who were responsible for allocation of machines in the county's precincts - and you are still trying to claim it was Republicans. Could it be you're biased a bit?

[FreepFryer]

61. 'Allocation' does not equal 'total'.

You ask for six marbles, one for each kid.

I give you four.

Did you screw up or disenfranchise those two marble-less kids, or did I?

Matt Damshroeder was holding all the marbles on that playground.

[SicTransit]

63. You're grasping at straws -

local BOEs decide how many machines to buy AND how to allocate them. Those decisions are made by Democrats and Republicans together - since BOEs have to have both in them. So if you're claiming disenfranchisement, you have to admit that Democrats in those BOEs are either completely incompetent (and I don't buy that - it's not one person you're talking about, but a couple of dozen), are hell-bent on suppressing black vote (unlikely, wouldn't you agree), or honest officials who were overwhelmed by the record turnout. Pick one.

[FreepFryer]

64. As I alrady mentioned - compare the # requested v/ the # allocated

You'll see why it's part of the Arnebeck case and the Conyers report, sic-o.

[SicTransit]

65. Ok - give URL to the document

that gives the # of machines that Franklin County requested and the # of machines that they got.

[FreepFryer]

66. Sorry,

Tit-for-tat attack posters don't get free research. Next?

[SicTransit]

68. When I post something, I back it up with documentation.

So far all I have seen from you is hot air.

[FreepFryer]

70. I'm glad to let the sources and references I already provided back me up

And the community to decide.

Have a nice day. Time waste avoidance strategy 12 complete.

[anaxarchos]

85. Living up to your name, I see. LOL n/t

[euler]

107. Show him post #102.

[euler]

106. How can you possibly know this ?

You can't.

[FreepFryer]

115. Umm, read Conyers. Or can't you?

[KaliTracy]

69. thanks for the clarification ... I don't have all of the answers, which

is why I'm asking Questions. I did assume when Blackwell came in he reappointed people -- but even if he didn't challenge that person -- he is still that person's boss, is he not?

Could be, though, that I experienced something on Election Day that I should have just ignored and been happy for my good luck?

Could be though, that, I should just live in my own little world instead of trying to find out answers?

Or could be, though, that I do not accept that what happened that day had anything to do with luck, or chance, or even money.

MY Experience in West Chester that day.
Rainy -- a little late to work already -- decide to vote, even if it means I'll be later, because the media told all of us how long the line were going to be in Ohio.

Voted at 7:45am. One lone person handing out literature. I was the only one there besides the poll people, one other person comes as I leave. There were 5-7 machines in my little church.

I go to work. I work in Miamisburg (Montgomery County) Many people who live in Dayton area are late -- some took almost 2 hours to vote.

I go home past the same polling place around 6:30 - 6:45 pm expecting to see "long lines" -- hardly any cars in parking lot.

I go to bed, and in the morning am awakened with NPR talking about lines in Ohio 2, 4 hours long and longer in the College town. I want to throw up.

I am PISSED.

at first, I don't do anything but draft a letter -- then the next day, after prodding from someone who heard my experience, I send it to all the Democratic BOE directors (because I am a democrat) in a 60 mile radius, asking how hard is it to get equity in an election? What were the Lessons Learned? How can we be sure that nothing like this ever happens again?

Only one writes back, Tim Burke -- telling me it's not a partisian issue, as Mason (Warren County) had long lines (similar demographic as my upper-middle-class mostly caucasion- pro-Bush area). Mentions that punch card machines are cheaper, so we get more. After a few letters back and fortht with him, I am not satisfied. People are just blowing this off!

I also send information to many other media outlets, including the Ohio ACLU -- for the non problems I encountered.

I estimate on just a one mile strip in my area that there are 23 machines

a library (1/4 mile to the left) estimate 2 machines

my place had 5-7 machines
a school on either side had voting estimate 2 machines per school

my mother-in-laws voting place about 1 mile or 1 and 1/2 miles the other way. 12 machines (2 sets of 6)

17 known for sure. The rest are just estimates. At least 23. That's just in one little area in West Chester. AND IT'S WRONG. There were a lot of other places in West Chester to vote, as well. No matter who won, or what the circumstances were surrounding it -- the whole thing stinks.

So forgive me for raising questions and not going back to my cozy little house and burying my head under the covers. There are PROBLEMS with this picture, I'm not saying I know what caused them (though I do think one (or more) persons are accountable, and yes, I do think the Secretary of State is at least one person), and if we don't collectively wake up to notice what is going on around us, we are all screwed.

[SicTransit]

74. I understand your frustration - but

when you get information from Democratic officials, including people who write back to you personally, explaining that, contrary to your expectations, upper-class white pro-Bush areas *also* had long lines, and when the Franklin county chairman says in the article I cited that it was a Democrat who allocated the machines to the precincts in the county, etc - then could it be you're directing your outrage in the wrong direction? I mean, could it be that you have this pre-conceived notion that this is a Republican conspiracy to disenfranchise Democratic voters and you close your eyes on any evidence to the contrary?

The whole thing stinks - yes, there is disorganization, lack of planning, etc etc. What you seem to *really* want to conclude from it, though, is that it is a Republican conspiracy, even though the facts of the matter do not point to that.

Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

He was a smart man.

[KaliTracy]

81. I never said anything about a Republican Conspiracy. though Mason

just happens to be in Warren County (home of the Level 10 Lock Down)-- they had less machines for the election than they did for the primary (according to a relative who works for the city of Middletown), as well, they have undergone TREMENDOUS growth since the 2000 elections -- sure, why wasn't something planned better for them, too?

Listen -- it's not that we have only 6 months to prepare for off-elections and general elections. We can immediately look at what happened and make informed decisions and have at least a year to plan.

If an employee of mine isn't pulling his/her weight, I would want explainations before I make a decision to let him/her go.

But if that employee refuses to answer questions

If that employee tries to get special treatment so he/she doesn't have to testify under oath

If that emplyee says, everything went smooth here today, yet customers are yelling that they didn't get their food, or the correct change, or the right food (or, the elections went much smoother than we anticiapted, there were no problems except a few long lines -- but people are yelling that they weren't treated fairly, they were improperly challenged, they were denied their right to vote through a variety of ways)

then what should I do? Shouldn't I should ask questions, including asking questions to the employee, expecting answers. What is the reason 900 precincts were lost between 1998-1999 when there isn't the excuse of transitioning to e-machines.

I do not accept, either, that lack of planning caused this when that person is planning on running for Governor. It's coincidence that Blackwell and Katherine Harris were both Co-Chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign for their states... it's coincidence that 95-98% of anamolies favored Bush, it's even coincidence that during the recount only 1 District was fully counted by hand and only 2 or 3 allowed a true random choice of what 3% of precincts to be counted by hand.

I know nothing. I assume nothing. I just let the pieces of the puzzle fall to the floor like some dada experiment. I do not attempt to think critically, and at least acknowledge that something is amiss, or think that if so then the people who are responsible for elections would be just a little bit concerned, or would have already come up with some sort of plan for next time. Oh wait, I did hear something... the solution -- Absentee Ballots. Heard it on NPR a day or two after the election. Now THAT would solve our problems, wouldn't it? Transparent and honest elections indeed.

[pgh_dem]

67. not really documentation

Just a repeat of the claim, as it skirts away from recognizing the chilling effect of the allocation of machines.
Citing the 'overall lack of machines' is stupid, as the 2-9 hour lines did not occur evenly throughout Franklin County, but invariably in Dem precincts, which were in some instances allocated less machines than they had in the primaries.
Documentation would be a piece of paper with this unnamed Democratic supervisor's name on it, ordering the allocation of machines, with the reasoning behind the decision.
It's clear that William Anthony approves of this decision, and yet they considered renting machines to supplement the county's 2,886 electronic voting booths. So it is then likewise clear that they were aware, before the election, that the allocation of voting machines would likely be insufficient. But this (again anonymous) Democratic supervisor didn't think it necessary to spread the voting machines out on a more equal basis.
So when was the original decision made?
Who is that Democratic supervisor?
Why do they attribute the decision not to rent extra machines to advice from Blackwell when Blackwell denies giving that advice?
If 'rented' punch card machines would be tooooo confusing, why couldn't they allocate a few more of the regular machines instead of leaving them in the warehouse on election day?
I'm talking about documentation where they admit they were poorly prepared, underequipped, and basically screwed up, resulting in disenfranchisement. Not some self-serving bullshit like this.
Who gives a rat's ass if William Anthony is personally offended?
(edited to charitably widen the length of wait time for voters)

[SicTransit]

71. Wow - you're hard to please -

you asked for "some documentation that Dems were actually included in the process of deciding the allocation of voting machines". I gave you an article in which the Chairman of the Democratic Party of Franklin County says that a Democratic supervisor was responsible for the allocation of voting machines. You think that being the one responsible for the allocation is not being "actually included in the process of deciding the allocation"?

[pgh_dem]

100. Just asking who was responsible

Pretty clear from the article you cited that Anthony was not taking responsibility for the allocation.
He referred to an unnamed Democratic supervisor and denied that the misallocation was really the problem, followed by an appeal to his own ethnicity at how offended he was that anyone would suggest he would disenfranchise 'his own people'.
Does that strike you as documentation of inclusion in the process?
Do non-denial denials usually wash with you?
Does passing the buck to unnamed officials often trigger the 'oh well, nothing to see here' response in you?
What's the name of the supervisor?
Where is the document where this Democratic supervisor allocated the voting machines?
Why do they cite Blackwell's advice for not renting additional machines, when he denies giving that advice?
Are these 'hard to please' questions?

[SicTransit]

103. You wanted documentation - you got documentation

what you didn't get is "ALL the documentation" - that you will have to dig up for yourself. I am not sure why you think you're entitled to have others work for you to satisfy your curiosity. May I suggest contacting William A. Anthony Jr. yourself and asking him some of these questions?

[pgh_dem]

112. I wanted documentation, i got a repeat claim

pointing to an unnamed person. I did not get any documentation which the person responsible took responsibility, thus proving (rather than alleging or buckpassing) that a Dem was included in the allocation process.

However, you're right. I will contact Anthony myself to satisfy my curiosity, as clearly you (and the original poster) lack the resources you imagine you've delivered.

[berniew1]

108. Not accurate I think; Have you seen his latest statement;

There's documentation at:
freepress.org
and
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm Columbus & Cleveland

[berniew1]

109. The huge number of EIRS incidence reports show it wasn't poor planning

along with the other documentation from the hearing and Dr. Phillips site, already referenced.

www.voteprotect.org maps / state / county / precinct

search for machines and "long lines"

and etc.

Many precincts had much less than in the primary where there were much fewer voters; many machines that were available weren't used in minority precincts; worst machines, perhaps deliberately not well maintained or the oldest used- there- consistently broke down- very many unable to vote- worst thing I've ever seen; malfeasance, etc.

[SicTransit]

110. You would have to give exact URLs -

the first site is too big and the second site is "Poems and Ballads"?

Edit: saw some stuff on second site about Columbus and Cleveland. Not one thing in there that can be construed as a statement from William A. Anthony - in fact, his name is not even mentioned. What exactly are you referring to?

[berniew1]

98. Vote machine fraud documented in Florida, Ohio, New Mexico

Widespread vote machine fraud has been documented in Florida in the big touchscreen counties, as well as voter suppression of minorities. Similar to the widespread voter suppression and fraud that has been documented in Ohio and New Mexico.
The problems appear large enough to swing all 3 states, as implied by the exit poll data- for which a new version is circulating today with strong evidence Kerry won the election. Exit poll data on voting groups.

Documentation for Ohio is at: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19

and http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm

Documentation of the widespread Florida vote machine fraud is at: http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

[euler]

104. Here's just one.

"William Anthony Jr., a Democrat who is chairman of the Franklin County election board."

Source

December 24, 2004 New York Times. Front page below the fold. The story title is "Voting Problems in Ohio Spur Call for Overhaul " written by JAMES DAO, FORD FESSENDEN AND TOM ZELLER JR.; JAMES DAO REPORTED FROM COLUMBUS FOR THIS ARTICLE, FORD FESSENDEN FROM NEW YORK AND TOM ZELLER JR. FROM CLEVELAND

I could give the link, but you have to pay for $2.95 to read it so I won't bother. Anyone can find and pay for it using the information provided above. Here are the relavent portions:

[Chimpanzee]

14. But did democrats have the final say? NO!!

[MarkusQ]

20. "Democrats" appointed by the S.O.S. n/t

[SicTransit]

51. The procedure for BOEs is that

the Democratic party passes the names of those it wants to be on them to Blackwell. Blackwell has the right to reject them. No one has yet claimed that he rejected any of the Democratic nominees.

[MarkusQ]

89. I've heard otherwise. Shall we both try to dig up limks? (n/t)

[SicTransit]

91. Sure - here you go

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:Zty4lXUBqUAJ:www.sconet.state.oh.us/BOC/Advisory_Opinions/1998/Op%252098-008.doc

Boards of elections are bi-partisan boards. Two members of a four member county board are appointed in each even numbered year. One appointment is from the political party which cast the highest number of votes for the office of governor at the most recent regular state election. The other is from the political party which cast the next highest number of votes. See Ohio Rev. Code Ann § 3501.06 (Baldwin Supp. 1998).


Members of boards of elections are appointed by the secretary of state. The county executive committee of the major political party entitled to the appointment makes and files a recommendation with the secretary of state for the appointment. The secretary of state is required by law to appoint the elector recommended by the county executive committee, unless the secretary of state believes that the elector would not be a competent member of the board of elections. See Ohio Rev. Code Ann. §§ 3501.05, 3501.06 (Baldwin Supp.1998) § 3501.07 (Baldwin 1995).

[MarkusQ]

93. I stand corrected....

I'd seen the statement that they were "tame" Democrats somewhere, but can't find any substantiation of the claim, so I'll update my mental files accordingly.

Thanks.

--MarkusQ

[SicTransit]

94. I do have to compliment you

on your response. Unfortunately the graciousness is not typical here.

[MarkusQ]

95. *smile* Well, the way I figure...

...if we all started doing it, it would be common. But since the only one I have much influence on is me, I decided to start there.

Who knows, maybe it will catch on?

--MarkusQ

P.S. And the thanks on correcting me was heartfelt. Every perceptive insight I've ever had has been the result of having a whole slew of misconceptions corrected.

[mod mom]

22. 1 dem 1 repug then Blackwell SOS as tie breaker.

Don't get me wrong-I think there was some incompetence on the part of the dem BOE but the machines were deliberately moved to support the repug voters. Fraud.

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. The SOE's did break Ohio Election Law

by not having 1 machine for every 200 voters.

The law is the law and I don't care which party the person responsible belongs to, they should be punished for their malfeasance and/or incompetence, either way.

If you have a 1000 registered voters then you should have 5 machines. The math is simple and there is no excuse.

[bmoney07]

4. they don't help matters

it depends why there is long lines - such as how K. Fuckwell placed the voting machines heavily in Bushland and put a lessor ratio in Kerryland

[SicTransit]

54. It is the local BOEs that are responsible for

the allocation of machines in precincts. Not Blackwell. The BOEs have both Republicans and Democrats on them. In Franklin county, where the longest lines occurred, the responsible person was a Democratic supervisor:

http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/27/20041127-B1-02.html

"Board of Elections Chairman William A. Anthony Jr. said he’s offended by accusations from "a band of conspiracy theorists."
Anthony, chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party, said long lines weren’t caused by the allocation of machines — a process controlled by a Democratic supervisor, he added — but by higher turnout, the overall lack of voting machines and a ballot that included more than 100 choices for some voters.

He said board members discussed renting punch-card machines to supplement the county’s 2,886 electronic voting booths, but they decided against the idea upon advice from Blackwell. LoParo said Blackwell would not have given such advice. "I doubt that was the case," he said yesterday.

A second type of machine would have been confusing, Anthony said, and the controversial punch cards likely would have brought objections from those asked to use them.

Anthony said he is personally offended by the allegations.

"I am a black man. Why would I sit there and disenfranchise voters in my own community?" he said. "I feel like they’re accusing me of suppressing the black vote. I’ve fought my whole life for people’s right to vote."

[LisaM]

5. It depends on whether disenfranchisement is deliberate

If so, yes, I believe that it could constitute fraud. Particularly when a pattern is evident, or if it, in effect, creates a poll tax (for example, in lost wages, if it's in a heavily working-class district.)

[EFerrari]

10. Deliberate, like holding back voting machines when you know

registration is up. (slaps forehead)

[mod mom]

24. when placement always favored repugs,

and hurt dem voters, I would have to say deliberate!

[southwood]

7. amazing numbers...

in this good post. Whether or not this is deliberate is less relevant, it goes to the integrity of the election system, i.e. the right to cast your vote. The material right, not just formal.

[anaxarchos]

9. By itself, it is just a fact...

But taken in context, it is part of a pattern.

A 20 year Republican effort in Ohio to gain local power and focus on redistricting, the documented efforts before the election to depress registration, the limitations on provisional ballots (remember paper weight), the organization of "challenge teams" before the election to target African-American precincts, the willingness of Republican officials to serve as election officials AND partisans for Bush-Cheney simultaneously, Blackwell's stonewalling of voting integrity issues after the election (despite his mandate through the Ohio State Constitution to do the opposite), running out the clock on the vote count, openly sabotaging the recount (hand picked rather than legally mandated random choice), demonstrated "sweetheart" relationships between machine companies and Election boards to circumvent the recount, law suits designed to frustrate the proof of election integrity or the lack of it, and a stunningly anti-democratic "attitude" - all of these items are part of a larger story.

Patterns do meet the standards of evidence and do constitute "proof" - in law, in science, in logic, and in life.

Yes, Long Lines Prove Election Fraud.

[PATRICK]

23. The main problem

is that we never breach the wall with probabilities. The notion of contest has eliminated all other considerations in America. The facts are unattainable for retrieving lost, stolen ballots- or proof of the exact fabricated votes.

All that we are arguing about the campaign blew off when conceding that the "records" are owned by the GOP. They conceded ALL the possible contesting points leaving others to point to all the methodologies and exterior evidence how the vote was gamed. The actual vote, the fair vote, the Kerry victory- has been burned behind the courthouse or worse- treated as lost by the candidate we can strongly demonstrate would have had the ballots of victory in a real democracy.

The concession of democracy began long before 2004. Even decent legislators of both parties share the frustration and impotence of the general betrayal.

We shall keep truth the stubborn thing. The truth means nothing unfortunately in the game the Democrats madly acceded to. I have no doubts about these studies proving a stolen election minus any rational evidence to justify a Bush plurality. I do doubt the leadership of any so called political campaign laying down in its own bacon pan.

[nancyharris]

13. Question

<"The Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell is responsible for creating and getting rid of precincts.">

How do you know this is true?

[Chimpanzee]

17. Yes and he eliminated over 700 precincts

[nancyharris]

21. How do you know this is true? eom

[Chimpanzee]

113. I read it several places - can't remember where now

[mod mom]

27. he eliminated them because he said new voting technology

would cause more efficiency in voting. Blackwell recieved 1.4 million from HAVA to update voting machines. We protested (rightfully so) the purchase of machines w/ paper trails. He left the money in the bank knowing full well that voter registration was way up. All he had to do was to place the existing machines so repugs could vote and suppress the dems. If we question why he didn't purchase new machines he will say it was becuz we objected. this is correct, BUT HIS DISTRIBUTION OF MACHINES WAS STILL INTENTIONALLY CRIMINAL!

[KaliTracy]

30. just and excuse... he got rid of 900 in the 1998-2000 cycle. n/t

[nancyharris]

38. How do you know

<"just and excuse... he got rid of 900 in the 1998-2000 cycle">

How do you know this was Blackwell? Are you the least bit interested in who actually is responsible for getting rid of the precincts?

[nancyharris]

35. My question was....

Where is the evidence that says Blackwell decided how many precincts there would be and where they would be located. It seems like a simple question that needs to be answered.

[KaliTracy]

26. Job Description from Ohio SOS website

"Duties and Responsibilities



Chief Elections Officer
As Ohio's chief election officer, Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell oversees the elections process and appoints the members of boards of elections in each of Ohio's 88 counties.

He supervises the administration of election laws; approves ballot language; reviews statewide initiative and referendum petitions, chairs the Ohio Ballot Board, which approves ballot language for statewide issues; canvasses votes for all elective state offices and issues; investigates election frauds and irregularities; trains election officials and reimburses counties for poll worker training costs.

The Elections Division compiles and maintains election statistics, political party records and other election-related records. Statewide candidates' campaign finance reports are filed with the office, together with the reports for state political action committees (PACs), state political parties and legislative caucus campaign committees.

The Secretary of State's office also licenses ministers to perform marriage; registers alien land; and issues apostilles, which are certifications verifying signatures on documents going out of the country.

All laws passed by the Ohio General Assembly, municipal charters, administrative rules adopted by agencies, and all executive orders issued by the Governor are filed with this office, as well."

[mod mom]

29. dereliction of duty-investigates election fraud!

[nancyharris]

37. I see nowhere in this job description

where it says that the SOS decides how many precincts there are and where they will be.

[KaliTracy]

41. Ok-- it's on his website -- he is in charge of other forms of the election

and when he took office suddenly 900 precincts were taken away.... but it has nothing to do with him. The implication is that it does, even if his BOEs did it under his watch --

unless he's like Ken Lay, and doesn't know anything.

Hell, he was making rules about the weight of absentee ballot paper 6 weeks before the election, you really think he had *nothing* to do with any aspect of getting rid of precincts?

see this thread for breakdown of numbers http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=209744&mesg_id=209744

if not him, then who? I don't care who it was -- he/she needs to be held accountable (but as he was the boss, and had to approve the measure if nothing else, I still say he's got his fingers dirty....)

[emcguffie]

15. what struck me

is that voters always said they had LESS voting machines than they had for the primary, usually half as many, and everyone knew there was going to be exceptionally good turnout. Turnout for primaries is usually pitiful. So to have half the number of machines is pretty surprising.

In addition, Blackwell could also have kept machines in disrepair, simply by not repairing them or maintaining them, so that one of the TWO that they had would probably break down. Which is exactly what happened.

[stirringstill]

32. Proof proves nothing

Wonderful point. As one of the Conyer's letters to Blackwell noted, there were indeed fewer machines in certain Dem precincts on Nov. 2 than during the primaries. Does THAT PROVE fraud? The average wait time for Dems to vote has been estimated to be 2 and 3 times that of a Republican in Ohio. According to some posters, as long as there is ANY room for plausible deniability, then the case for wrong doing is labeled baseless.

A scenario: Mary hears screams from the house next door and call the police. The police arrive and find the door unlocked, but no one is home. They notice pools of blood on the floor and blood splattered on the walls. The police then tell Mary not to worry, "Since no one is home, a crime must not have been committed."

[emcguffie]

34. they convicted what's-his-name--

on circumstantial evidence, didn't they?

I know it won't go anywhere because THEY are in control, but there is enough that, in a sane world, it should be investigated thoroughly. Many Republicans behave in an ethical manner. (How many?) It is just so many of them have gone so far fascist, they don't care if what they do is immoral or wrong. Ends justifying means. The Family, or the Fellowship, whatever it's called.

[k8conant]

16. No, they don't prove election fraud...

nor do computer "glitches" prove election fraud.

Refusing to correct the long lines and glitches by revoting proves fraud

:kick:

[Freddie Stubbs]

25. Don't the county election boards decide how many machines each precinct

gets? :shrug:

[The Gigmeister]

28. No. It proves the preceinct wasn't prepared.

And the preceint is ran by locals. If they can't handle the voter turn-out, all they can do is prepare for the next election. Some would say they should have been prepared for anything, but I won't go that far.

But no...It's not "Fruad". (Good God...That word gets thrown around here like trash. It's almost becomming meaningless!)

[suston96]

33. Deliberate!

Keeping voters waiting in long lines in the rain while voting machines are sitting in a warehouse, IS voter suppression, and IS election fraud!

Y'all quit trying to paint or color it otherwise.

[KaliTracy]

36. Actual Precincts lost come from the Ohio SOS Website, ironically

there are no precinct totals for 1999 (Blackwell took office in 1998).

The "Ohio Proficincy Question" is meant to make us all think -- how difficult could this have been if it was not intential to make sure there were enough machines if only 70% of voters were expected?

If this is simple math -- then why was there a problem? If this is part of his job description (see post #26) then why was this a problem?

To me it doesn't matter if it were BOEs (Directors appointed by Blackwell) or not -- He was supposed to oversee everything, was he not?

[emcguffie]

40. One more thing --

well, two. Blackwell withheld voting machines, and he lied about it. That doesn't indicate poor planning. Au contraire, it indicates careful planning.

There is that bit in the Ohio code that denying the public the right to view the voting records constitutes "prima facie evidence of fraud". Seems to me that that's enough, right there. And that implies, by extension, that evidence does not have to be hard evidence to be meaningful.

You can't get the hard evidence until you get to look at the machines and the books and the ballots. If they can deny you that opportunity, they are denying you the possibility of discovering the hard evidence. So you have to agitate to get a look at what Ohio says you have the right to look at.

I do not understand why, if it is the law, one cannot insist the law be enforced and have somebody somewhere to enforce it.

[Snivi Yllom]

42. no

long lines are indicators of high turnout and a slow processing of voters due to insufficient voting stations or some other problems.

By itself it is not proof of voter fraud. Rather, it's proof of election problems that have to be addressed.

[pgh_dem]

43. snivi yllom, would you agree

at least that it is proof of someone (or several people) not doing their job properly?
and that repeated occurrences of incompetence form a pattern?
i know you don't agree it has reached such a point, but would you acknowledge that hypothetically there is a point that the pattern of incompetence could reach such a huge scale that fraud would be the obvious conclusion?
if so, how long would the lines have to be, in how many counties, before you would agree the situation had reached such a point?

[Snivi Yllom]

45. Not necessarily

I would say that many of the most incompetent bad workers in the world are in fact those who work for the government in various factions.

For example 'Teresa LaPore' and her butterfly ballot. Her gross incompetence that cost thousands of votes but here was no widespread pattern of fraud.

And no there are no patterns of problems that is even close to a level that suggests fraud.

[Pacifist Patriot]

44. I would think motivation and intent would determine whether it was

election tampering and that is extremely difficult to prove.

[anaxarchos]

46. Here is motive and intent...

"You never empower the minority party when you hold the power unless you have to."

Asked if legislative Republicans blew the redistricting process, Bennett paused for a long time before saying, "I'm not going to make any comment on that."

This is Ohio GOP Leader Bob Bennett on "redistricting" (i.e. jerrymandering) in 2002.

This is a link chock-full of "intent":

http://www.fairvote.org/redistricting/reports/remanual/ohnews.htm#swallow

Again, they don't really try to hide it...

[FreepFryer]

62. Or, my hands-down favorite quote:

Political parties generally pay lip service to the ideal of encouraging turnout. Occasionally, however, an incautious but revealing comment is publicized, as when a Republican state legislator in Michigan said:

"If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election cycle."
-- State Rep. John Pappageorge, R-Troy, while discussing election strategy at a meeting of the Oakland County Republican Party

Source:
http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/eholl27_20040727.htm

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. A B S O L U T E L Y and

worse! A recrudescence, has now been generalised on a federal scale, of the abysmal, lethal, "lynch-mob" lawless, nazi-style racism of the Deep South, which disfigured the country right up until the nineteen-fifties, which will always stand to the shame of the USA, in the eyes of the rest of a horrified world; not least in the Caucasian countries of Europe.

I seem to remember reading recently that the Senate, itself, only reluctantly got a grip, after WWII, of the lynchings of African Americans by the cro-magnons in the Deep South, as a result of heavy pressure being put on them. Today's senators have a lot to live down and try to remedy. Especially the Southerners.

All the more pitiable since, thanks to the heroic endeavours of the African Americans, themselves, as well as the Democratic party leadership and members, the integration of African Americans, in terms of their occupancy of posts in every sphere of employment, up to the highest levels, would now put European countries to shame. Certainly, the UK.

[proud patriot]

49. Long lines = Civil Rights Violations

:hi:

[dano5050]

56. LINK ---> This has already been proven!

http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/columbus.htm

Are your memories so short term?

D.

[1democracy]

59. Estimate 17,000 Kerry votes lost in Cincinnati

on previous link. How many did Kerry lose statewide through voter suppression techniques?

[Der Blaue Engel]

58. The math is good, but...

...the problem is incorrect for #5. In #1, you showed that 144 people can vote per machine per 12-hour day, not per hour. Therefore, 12 people can vote per machine per hour, and thus, if someone waits in line for three hours at a polling place with two machines, there are 72 people ahead of them.

And for #4, I get approximately 3.5.

Although sometimes my brain doesn't work at all, so I could be wrong. :)

[KaliTracy]

60. THANKS for the Catch *blush* (and thanks for reading the questions!)

that's what I get for doing this stuff at lunch.... (did I mention I'm not a math person?)

hmmm... really screwed up number 5

5. If a person waits for 3 hours to vote, and it takes approximately 12 people to vote per hour and there are 2 machines, then approximately how many people are in front of the person waiting to vote?

A. 144
B. 70
C. 400
D. 800

I agree it could be 3.5 for number 4 -- I messed that one up too, with my prior knowledge but not putting it into the question (Most BOEs say they allocate 1 machine per 99 voters).

Again.... thanks for the catch... I hope the intention wasn't totally blown away....(at least I did give a disclaimer....)

[Salomonity]

72. it doesn't take that long

It took me about two minutes to vote in New York, from walking up to the sign-in desk to getting the sticker. Could have done it faster in principle; just have people make up their minds who to vote for before they go into the booth.

[KaliTracy]

73. ?? The average of 5 minutes is just that. You have to have a baseline

somewhere. In Ohio the BOE directors I spoke to said that there was 1 machine per 99 voters, which would make the time longer than 5 minutes on a 12 hour voting day....

the point is once you get a baseline -- and know how many people you have in your precinct, and if you don't have enough money or resources or whatever to do a straight 1machine per 99 people, then if you expect at least 70% of your voters to turn out -- how many machines would you need?

One argument in Ohio is that we had "low voter turnout" for the last election -- and it's true, it's incredibly different from the 80's and it was about 67% in 1996 and incredible low 60s% in 2000. However, we lost 900 precincts from 1996-2000. and from 2000-2004 lost another 700 more precincts, but from 1998-2000 gained 800,000 voter registrations.

So was it low voter turnout in 2000 -- or something else?

[SicTransit]

75. The Franklin county BOE director said

that in his county voters had more than 100 (!) choices to make on their ballot. If you take even 10 seconds to make each choice, that is 17 minutes.

[KaliTracy]

77. so doesn't that ring weird to you -- that there wasn't a proper

allocation of machines? Is this justification for long lines?

[SicTransit]

79. It is not a justification - it is an explanation.

I really don't understand your point here

1. There are more than 100 choices on the ballot, and there is a huge turnout.

2. The Democratic official who is reponsible for allocation of machines to precincts apparently misplans things.

3. This results in long lines.

Please tell me - what rings "weird" to you here. This is just general disorganization and lack of planning. Where is the conspiracy?

You yourself posted that according to information you received there were long lines in upper-class Republican districts as well. Was that just disorganization and lack of planning or was there a conspiracy to disenfranchise those upper-class Republicans as well?

[KaliTracy]

88. the point is if they "knew" it would take up to 17 minutes to read

the ballot, so they allocated -- let's say 10 minutes per person, because 17 would be too much, and they expected that at least 70% of a precinct of 400 was going to show up (about 280 or so) How many machines should they have?

at 6 people an hour
12 hours in the vote cycle
approximated 72 people could vote per machine

so 3.8 machines should have been allocated in a precinct of about 400 voters.'

DID that happen?

[SicTransit]

92. I am not trying to excuse the

general lack of planning and disorganization on the local level in Ohio. What I really don't see is the leap from that, which undoubtedly occured, to "fraud".

[KaliTracy]

114. the word fraud was a question -- suppression is my take -- suppression is

also not acceptable. The point to my original post, which seems to have not been made very well, is that if the math is so simple (even though I screwed it up -- it's still quite simple) then why is this being attributed to "lack of planning" and "disorganization." Who's in charge? From your responses, it seems that no one is culpable here. Is that the case? Everyone screwed up, so lets just brush it under the rug and forget about it.

How can that be? Everyone is off doing their own little thing, forgetting to check the roster 6 weeks before the election to see how many people could be expected? No one is pulling their weight? Too many people showed up? Oops. Better luck next time Franklin. Oops. Sorry we challenged so many people with challengers outside of your city Cincinnati. Oops.

I'm puzzled, truly.

How can it be that 2000 had the lowest turn out in 20 years for a presidential election, but by coincidence Ohio lost over 900 precincts in a 2 year period, and, oddly enough, Florida had massive problems that year with lines that may have overshadowed some of the problems Ohio could have had with lines, which possibly could have yeilded a much lower turnout. Did we have the same problems, but not on as grand a scale? I don't know. The numbers look odd to me. Maybe not to you. Should 2000 be investigated? I think so, especially in light of the things that happened this year in Ohio.

[Vektor]

76. At the very least...

...it strongly suggests deliberate disenfranchisement...

since these problems did not occur in Republican areas...

[SicTransit]

78. See post #69

apparently those problems did occur in Republican areas as well.

[Vektor]

80. She didn't believe it, though....

"Only one writes back, Tim Burke -- telling me it's not a Parisian issue, as Mason (Warren County) had long lines (similar demographic as my upper-middle-class mostly Caucasian- pro-Bush area). Mentions that punch card machines are cheaper, so we get more. After a few letters back and forth with him, I am not satisfied. People are just blowing this off!"

She wasn't satisfied with his response...nor would I be.
I have not heard ANY complaints from Republican areas, and even so...2 hours is one thing.

Four, six, and ten is entirely another. And look at the ratios..delays in some more heavily populated areas IS normal...


The fact that it WAS by far worse in Dem/minority precincts, more common, and longer waits, hands down, is a red flag, though.

All those videos of the African American voters being turned away repeatedly...having the doors closed in their faces...I doubt many white affluent Republicans were treated that way, if they were, I have yet to see video of it.

[KaliTracy]

82. Oh I believed it, I just didn't accept the way he was brushing me

off -- Mason's lines were 45 minutes to an hour. A bit different than what we saw with our own eyes in other counties.


Mason happens to be in Warren County too -- one of the last to report that night, and home of the level 10 lockdown. Other areas in Warren may have had even longer lines. Does that make it right?

[Vektor]

84. Nope....

It's never right. And I don't blame you one bit. I'd have been pissed off to get that type of brush off, too. It sounds to me like they were not taking your concerns seriously, which is wrong. They are supposed to be there to help.

[shraby]

99. There is a point here that

seems to be missed. Once it was determined there weren't enough machines for a precinct, the situation was not resolved with more machines. It was allowed to continue with people waiting in long lines. Calls were put out for more machines and ignored.

[KaliTracy]

101. yes... thanks. n/t

[Imagevision]

83. Long lines, election fraud? -- yes of course...

When you have presincts that require an adequate amount of voting machies quite obviously only so many could afford to remain waiting in line for so lone -- so they left to go to work or take care of family personal matters -- bottomline? they left because waiting 2-10 hours in line wsn't possible -- not including the rain and cold weather.

If the proper amount of voting machines were evenly ditributed there wouldn't be this "disenfranchisement" claim !!!

[delphine]

86. Does it have to be fraud to be wrong? What if it's

just a travesty, not deliberate, but causes the election to be skewed nonetheless?

Does it have to be fraud to matter? If there were a natural disaster that day, I'm sure they'd make arrangements for another day.

[KaliTracy]

87. people would freak if it were deliberate disenfranchisement so it

must have just been a mistake. Poor Planning. Oops, this one got away from us.

I don't know what I think right now. Something just doesn't add up.

The difference between a one hour wait in a "red" district as opposed to a 4 hour wait in a "blue" district doesn't sit well -- but really, NO ONE should have had to wait more than 30-40 minutes tops. Even without "e-voting" machines.


of course.... it would have been different for some if the tables were turned -- cushy "red" neighborhoods having 3 hour waits because of machine breakdown and not enough machines, and "blue" neighborhoods able to get people in and out because they had 4 machines per precinct, well-labled and if they were in the wrong precinct line they didn't have to go to the back of long line before they got in line for their "real" precinct, but could have started a merge line and went over, real line, merge line, real line, merge line so they didn't have to lose another 2 hours of their day.

But, that's too logical maybe?

Would it be a problem for people then?

As well, if Kerry had won, with the same information(or reversed, "red" counties having the problems/"blue" counties not) I would have still been sick to my stomach and would have demanded Lessons Learned and "How can this be avoided next time?" from those who are supposed to be in charge. But then, it would be a problem of most importance, and no cost would be spared trying to get to the heart of the matter.

[LittleClarkie]

90. Wrong word, is all. Suppression, not fraud. But still not right

Not right at all. Election reform needed. Non-partisan oversight.

[berniew1]

96. Vote machine fraud proven by the EIRS incident report system; long lines

often imply systematic voter suppression; which in this case is also proven in swing states like Ohio, Florida, New Mexico by the EIRS report system at www.voteprotect.org maps state county

but the long lines/ systematic voter suppression of minorities is also proven in Ohio at
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm Columbus & Cleveland
and the Freepress.org web site

and in new mexico at
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf

[euler]

102. NYT: Story about the cause of long lines Ohio.

December 24, 2004 New York Times. Front page below the fold. The story title is "Voting Problems in Ohio Spur Call for Overhaul " written by JAMES DAO, FORD FESSENDEN AND TOM ZELLER JR.; JAMES DAO REPORTED FROM COLUMBUS FOR THIS ARTICLE, FORD FESSENDEN FROM NEW YORK AND TOM ZELLER JR. FROM CLEVELAND

I could give the link, but you have to pay for $2.95 to read it so I won't bother. Anyone can find and pay for it using the information provided above. Here are the relavent portions:

snip

In Columbus, Franklin County election officials reduced the number of electronic voting machines assigned to downtown precincts and added them in the suburbs. They used a formula based not on the number of registered voters, but on past turnout in each precinct and on the number of so-called active voters -- a smaller universe. By contrast, the state's most populous county, Cuyahoga, allocated machines based on the total number of voters, a move that the county's election director, Michael Vu, said helped stave off even bigger lines.

In the Columbus area, the result was that suburban precincts that supported Mr. Bush tended to have more machines per registered voter than center-city precincts that supported Mr. Kerry -- 4.6 machines per 1,000 voters in Mr. Bush's 50 strongest precincts, compared with 3.9 in Mr. Kerry's 50 best. Mr. McQuoid's precinct, a Kerry stronghold, lost one of the four machines it had in 2000, despite an increase in registration.

Matthew Damschroder, a Republican who is the director of elections in Franklin County, said the urban precincts lost machines because many of their voters had not voted recently and because those precincts historically had had low turnout. Indeed, election results show that a much higher suburban turnout on Nov. 2 meant that machines in Bush areas were more heavily used on average, although whether that was because their voters were less easily discouraged by long lines or simply more efficient in voting is unclear.

snip

Nothing described here seems fraudulent to me. Someone said poor planning. That sounds right to me.

[KaliTracy]

111. except that the "consistent" downward trend in voters

happened after a huge dip in precincts. Possibly a coincidence. All I'm saying is there needs to be some research in the last 3 or 4 election cycles, including people telling what their experiences have been with waits before -- in the same areas, in other areas. I think (only because of the dip in precincts), that something like this went on in 2000 -- and I think someone needs to be investigating it.

[KaliTracy]

105. Data from Ohio Secretary of State Website (with off election info, too)

PRECINCT DATA INFORMATION From the Ohio Secretary of State Website
It has come to my attention that in the 1980s and early 1990s there were little changes to precincts. Consistently Presidential Elections had more turnout (in the 70% range usually) than off-year elections (in the 30%-40% range usually) .

From 1992 on as we added voters to our registry, somehow our precincts began to go down, but the most they declined were after Kenneth Blackwell, Ohio's Secretary of State, took office. If he is not involved in doing anything with precincts (contrary to this article http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/other_stories/multi1/documents/04258174.asp ) -- I would welcome the information on who is.

I got this all from the SOS website.


1980
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 13,332
# of Registered Voters.......5,962,864
Total Votes Cast.............4,378,937
Percent of Votes Cast........73.88%

Actual Voters/Precincts...... 328 (This would be the number if voters to precincts were evenly distributed -- in this case would be 328 voters per precinct -- not the real number per precinct, but just for reference -- you'll see why as you get further down.)


1884
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 13,296
# of Registered Voters.......6,332,454
Total Votes Cast.............4,664,223
Percent of Votes Cast........73.66%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 351
(Lost 36 precincts from 1980)


1888
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 13581
# of Registered Voters.......6,275,638
Total Votes Cast.............4,505,284
Percent of Votes Cast........71.79%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 331
(Gained 285 precincts from 1984)

1992
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 13,738
# of Registered Voters.......6,536,936
Total Votes Cast.............5,043,094
Percent of Votes Cast........77.14%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 367
(Gained 157 precincts from 1988)

1996
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 13,136
# of Registered Voters.......6,837,421
Total Votes Cast.............4,638,108
Percent of Votes Cast........67.83%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 353
(Lost 602 precincts from 1992)


Non-Presidential Election 1997
Precincts Reporting……………………99.98%
# of Precincts ………………………… 13124 (Precincts reporting 13100??)
# of Registered Voters………………6,943,831
Total Votes Cast ………………………. 3,163,091
Percent of Vote Cast………………………………45.46%
Actual Voters/Precincts…………………………241
(Lost 12 precincts from 1996)


Non-Presidential Election 1998
# of Precincts............... 13,079
# of Registered Voters.......7,096,423
Total Votes Cast.............3,534,782
Percent of Votes Cast …..49.81%
Actual Voters/Precincts…………270
(Lost 45 precincts from 1997)

Non-Presidential Election 1999
No precinct data
# of Registered Voters.......7,146,895
Total Votes Cast.............2,467,736


2000
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 12,151
# of Registered Voters.......7,535,188
Total Votes Cast.............4,795,989
Percent of Votes Cast........63.6%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 394
(Lost 926 precincts since 1998 (no precinct data 1999))


Non-Presidential Election 2001
# of Precincts............... 11,844
# of Registered Voters.......7,153,796
Total Votes Cast.............2,574,915
Percent of Votes Cast........35.99%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 217
(Lost 307 precincts from 2000)

Non-Presidential Election 2002
# of Precincts............... 11,756
# of Registered Voters.......7,113,826
Total Votes Cast.............3,356,285
Percent of Votes Cast........47.17%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 285
(Lost 88 precincts from 2001)


Non-Presidential Election 2003
# of Precincts............... 11,488
# of Registered Voters.......7,138,493
Total Votes Cast.............2,649,482
Percent of Votes Cast........37.11%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 230
(Lost 268 precincts from 2002)


2004
Precincts Reporting.......... 100%
# of Precincts............... 11,366
# of Registered Voters.......7,974,670
Total Votes Cast.............5,722,211
Percent of Votes Cast........71.75%
Actual Voters/Precincts...... 530
(Lost 122 precincts from 2003, 1711 since 2000)

[Wilms]

116. Take me upstairs, please. n/t

[KaliTracy]

117. ??

[Wilms]

118. I'm kickin' it upstairs.

:)

I hate seein' threads like this back on page 4.