Are there any scenarios where Kerry/Edwards can win this election?

[seshers]

I feel foolishly hopeful. I'd like some input. :tinfoilhat:

[kostya]

1. You mean 2008? Oh, ... sorry.

[seshers]

4. Not funny

because I am serious. I want to believe that there is still a glimmer of hope.

[TayTay]

14. No, there is not

Seriously speaking, after Nov 3rd and the vote counts came in there was no way for the vote to be reversed.

The ongoing fight is about trying to ensure that future elections are fair and give the maximum amount of people possible the right to vote and have that vote be legally counted. This is the fight that encompasses the horrible disenfranchisement that went on with minority voters in Ohio and this is the fight over what the votes were cast on (equipment) and how they were tabulated.

This fight, after Nov 3rd, ceased to be about Kerry/Edwards. They lost. The state houses and governorships of the states in which they were close enough to have won and where fraud is deeply suspected (and documented) are controlled by Republicans. There was no way that votes were going to be overturned. I am deeply sorry that you were led to believe this. Even if a Senator stands up tomorrow, even if all the Democratic Senators stand up tomorrow, the certified election results will not be overturned. There will be a couple of hours where evidence can be debated, then state delegations will vote for Pres. with each State accorded one vote. Since there are 31 states with majority Republican legislators and 19 with majority Dem legislators, we cannot win this fight at this time.

However, this fight is about the future. We cannot allow election fraud to continue. This is an absolute. Election fraud is a disgrace to American democracy. (I actually think it is treason, but I digress.) Perhaps tomorrow will generate some publicity and that would help further the cause of getting clean elections. But we must have hearings and we must bring these abuses out to the greater American public. We, as Democrats, cannot abandon minority voters and allow their voting franchise to be treated with such contempt. It betrays everything the Democratic Party stands for and everything that people fought and died for through the years to achieve for all citizens in this country. It is an affront and a disgrace. This fight is separate from any one election. This fight is for the principles of democracy itself.

[mordarlar]

15. We are foolish if we believe..

we can allow this administration access to congress for four years and still retain any power against this type of action in the future. They are looking to do away with the filibuster in a majority run congress with a "nuclear option" available to them. Look at what they have succeeded in clearing in the past four years. If we have this much trouble fairly electing an official in 04 we will have far greater trouble in 08. This is really do or die time people.

[TayTay]

19. The current election is under Constitutional law

This election will not be overturned. There is no legal way to do so against the wishes of the majority party, within our Constitutional structure. That this sucks beyond the telling is beside the point. It is a simple fact.

We as Democrats have to face the hard ugly truth. We are a minority party right now and there are no magic wand solutions to getting back to majority status. We have to work our way out of this. The more time we spend fighting amongst ourselves, the more the Rethugs rejoice. We have to find a way to unite and get our message and values out to the voting public. And we have to scream bloody blue murder about election fraud and engage the general American public in a way in which pressure builds for reform. There is no other way.

[Peace Patriot]

30. TayTay and other realists, i.e., "we are the minority party right now..."

Statements like

Kerry lost.
We lost.
We are the minority party.

are not true.

We should not validate them in any way. If we do, we further the ILLUSION created by rampant election fraud and collusive media...

...who really did it, this time--by "adjusting" the Exit Polls (in which Kerry won) to fit the Republican Bush "Pioneer" controlled electronic vote tabulation machines with secret source code "results," making it look like Bush won both the Exit Polls and the "official results." Thus, we all shut up, in stunned silence-unlike the Ukrainians, who saw two separate, conflicting figures--the Exit Polls vs. the "official results"--and knew something was very wrong. And revolted. And got a re-vote.

No revolution here, because of the illusion.

Illusion. That's what we're dealing with. We must fight the illusion!

Reality: Kerry won. We lost the right to vote.

Don't feed the illusion with the language that they try to force you to use to describe as real that which is not real. It makes everybody crazy.

And I don't mean: Be unrealistic. Don't face facts. I mean, beware of their words.

[zann725]

60. Terrific post! My thoughts exactly!

On another thread I just responded to someone who said, "I realize we can't change the outcome, but..."
UGHH! If I hear that phrase repeated one more time from people who are still making an effort to change things, but trying NOT look like it, or trying not to expect too much.

Like your post say, I'm aware everytime I hear these defeatist, untrue phrases that we're just repeating the lies we're being told, acquiescing. Words FORM Reality...they are NOT initially Reality.
We give them that power.

So I also will NOT be limited by minimalizing the possible progress we can make...if we BELIEVE we can.

This is just the beginning!

[googly]

21. Very good, very rational, very realistic assessment of the situatoin

[frictionlessO]

23. very very very well put!!

I tried and cannot add a thing more eloquently than you just did!

high regards!!

[TayTay]

33. Thank you for the kind comments

I feel so bad for all the folks who have been somehow led to believe that there is a way to overturn the election and oust Bush. This is not going to happen. There was no realistic chance that it was ever going to happen after Nov 3rd. The longer this illusion goes on, the longer we delay the work we need to do to get election reform and get unity in order to elect Democrats. Illusion is not our friend. I anticipate another round of grief, disbelief and visits to the 'circular firing squad' after tomorrow. Maybe after that finishes we can begin the work we need to do to affect change.

[frictionlessO]

43. Very true....

However, Im excited any way you cut it! things really start happening tomorrow. Even if a single senator doesnt stand up we get answers. thats what its all about... tomorrow. The tin foil hats come off and the patriots come out. Then we'll see who tries to screw the blacks, the youth, the gays, the pro-choicers, the pagans, the seniors, the poor... you know the list...lol.

Tomorrow truth alone will be the outcome for us here, tomorrow we'll all know where we stand... or sit!

but yeah very well put!!

[Samantha]

49. If fraud can be definitely proven between now and January 20th

Bush* will not be sworn in. Out of the mouth of Jonathan Turley, Constitutional expert, interviewed on MSNBC. That's the literal drop dead date, not the day the Electoral College votes. If you disagree, you need to debate this with the highly regarded Constitution expert, Jonathan Turley.

[greatscott15]

35. I disagree - Lets get it overturned

I cannot believe how many people here have now settled for "this is not about overturning the election. It's about exposing vote fraud, and ensuring future elections".

Baloney!

We cannot just settle for "nobility". We must win. Sounds like everyone here has given up on the real issue.

Reminds me of a line from "The Rock" with Sean Connery.

He said ....

"losers whine about doing their best"

"winners go home and have sex with the prom queen"

So what are we going to do - "our best"????

Come on folks, we gotta do more than a moral victory here.

[TayTay]

37. But that is exactly what we are talking about

How to win. How to get more of our voters to the voting booth than the other guys. How to talk to the majority of Americans who we believe are receptive to the Democratic message and get them to respond with votes for our candidates.

We in DU believe Kerry won and that voting fraud is a 'slam dunk.' What good does that do in the greater world outside DU? Most Americans, the people who have the actual votes, are unaware of the voting fraud situation. Given that we need support to affect anything, given that we have minority party status and thus no say in how Congress votes or acts, how do you propose that we get change?

We have to get it together enough to present the evidence to the American people. We have to find a way, beyond DU, to get more people to believe us. Having moral purity is not good enough. It is not going to get us more votes. It is not going to build a groundswell of support in states that need election reform. Only hard work will do that. We lost. We do not intend to lose again. We have to get from point A to Point B. You tell me how, when we cannot even admit that there was a problem.

[housewolf]

39. It would take millions of people in the streets

for weeks. Massive popular demonstrations and upheavals. Our people, out there in the streets, demonstrating, refusing to accept the status quo, performing acts of civil disobedience, facing massive police power, repression, arrest and even being killed in the streets

for their to be even a prayer of getting Kerry into the White House at this point.

The Ukraine is an inspiration but do we have the will here to do that? Especially in the face of an increasingly militarize police?

I am sorry to be so rough and so graphic, but this is what I think.

Let's say Conyers gets a senator to stand up with him tomorrow. What does that mean? Do you think the Repubs would meekly walk away and surrender power? This crowd of republicans? This group that went to Florida in 2000 and rioted in the streets and in County election boards to disrupt the counting of the votes? This crowd with their own private Supreme Court selectors???

I just don't think the American population is ready or willing to do what it would take to overturn this thing. There are 62,000+ people registered here. We would need millions. Millions voted for Kerry but how many of them have put politics aside and gone on with their lives, reconciled with what they believe the results of the election to be?

We can and should continue to work this thing. Demand an official investigation into Ohio and the other states. Keep pushing. Keep working it to try to find the key that will unlock it all.

But it will continue to take time. It will take slow legal procedures. It won't be over this week or this month or maybe not even this year.

And we can't do it for Kerry. We have to do it for US. For us and our country and our democracy and our children and the future. Because we need to have elections that are honest and credible. Because nothing works right if we don't believe our government was legitimately elected. But we can't do it for Kerry. We have to do it for us.

WE are the leaders we are looking for. We have to be.

[Warpy]

17. It took Watergate two years to oust Nixon

and getting rid of his dreadful VP, Spiro Agnew, was one of the first steps. It was different then, though, because Nixon didn't control the press, Congress, or the USSC.

I'm afraid that even under the best scenario, it will take that long to disgrace and discredit Bush/Cheney, unless they're really, really stupid.

By that I mean invading another country, especially a Middle East country, without provocation and with the military in the state it's in now. I honestly think we might see the military act against them if that happens. We will certainly see the rest of the world act against them if it does.

I see no hope in the near future. We know what's going on, but there aren't that many of us. They control all 3 branches of government and the news media. The Democratic Party is MIA, probably due to the DLC licking their lips at the prospect of four more years of Bush tax cuts for rich men like them. We have no allies in power.

If we want to get rid of these men, if we want an honest voting system, it has to come from us. We won't have any help this time.

[NoPasaran]

2. Use a time machine to go back to June

And run a better campaign.

[uppityperson]

3. Time travel.

sorry

[LSdemocrat]

5. Not unless someone finds about 125,000 Kerry votes in a closet by tomorrow

[kitkat65]

27. That could happen! Let's get a warrant to search Blackwell's house!

I still believe there is some hope in a recount but it MUST be hand done under close observation.

[slackmaster]

6. Not without pulling a rabbit out of their hat

n/t

[seshers]

7. "Nothing up my sleeve. Presto!"

Bullwinkle cartoon. Followed by Rocky the flying squirrel, "Again?"

[zann725]

61. Actually the Judiciary Committee just might tomorrow. If I were them,

I would've held back the most damming evidence until Jan. 6...because to release it sooner would've given Repug's a chance to discredit it in the media, and take all the 'steam' out of it.

So if they DO pull a rabbit out of their hat, I will not be surpised...but genuinely pleased.

[stray cat]

8. No evidence that would change the outcome of the election

[madbelgiancow]

9. Yes - determine the true intent of the voters

[seshers]

12. how can we?

[Beware the Beast Man]

10. No.

Not even in the most unrealistic, hopeful scenario. Kerry lost the election. Yes, there was vote tampering. Yes, there was media manipulation. But Kerry conceded. It's over.

[FreepFryer]

13. That's not why it's all but over, but you've gotta focus on resistance...

...because the '04 Kerry/Edwards candidacy was torpedoed by foul play. Period.

[Beware the Beast Man]

16. I say let's focus all our energy (and anger) on a bigger, badder mid-term

And 2008 campaign.

[FreepFryer]

38. We are. This is the part where we prevent any fraud from nullifying it.

[imenja]

11. Will this stop after Jan 6?

Or will people still be waiting for Santa Claus? Let's take action to change things now, not wait for Kerry to rise from the ashes as our savior.

1) work on local campaigns for Supervisors of Elections and Secretaries of State so that we can affect changes in voting practices.

2) let's work on constitutional amendments and other provisions to reform election processes: require a verifiable paper trail, etc...

3) Work to see Democratic governors elected in our states

[crispini]

22. Well, yeah.

But tomorrow, I would like to see a Senator or two stand up. Not to change the election but to go on record as saying that the OHIO ELECTION SUCKED WANG BIGTIME.

[imenja]

24. absolutely

I would love to see a real discussion in the Senate. But imagining Kerry will take office doesn't make sense to me. It's a waste of time and energy.

[greenmutha]

31. ROFLOL!

"sucked wang bigtime"

LOVE IT! :toast:

[Jersey Devil]

28. We will have to wait for the hysteria to pass

I think it is a shame that all this time has been wasted on pipe dreams instead of serious introspection about why we lost and what we can do about it.

Hopefully after tomorrow they will close this forum and people will come to their senses.

[imenja]

34. I hope you are right

But somehow I don't think so.

[saracat]

40. We KNOW why we lost!

And it isn't anything to do with us!

[politicasista]

18. Sadly, no

and Kerry would have made a cool president. :cry:

[Peace Patriot]

20. It's not very likely, because there is no fair and objective...

authority anywhere to be found right now. Republicans are not Republicans, they are BushCons. They garnered their majority in Congress by fraudulent means. They are not likely to give even a fair hearing to the Ohio challenge, let alone vote to reject Ohio's Electoral votes. They are CONS--fake, fraudulent politicians, in a party that has forgotten the public interest, and has no concept any longer of good government.

So, what's likely to happen is a quick shutdown of debate, and a rote, partyline vote for the fraudulent BushCon Electors. The Constitution says 2 hours of debate. But when did the BushCons begin respecting the Constitution? (This is presuming a Democratic Senator or Senators signs the House petition.)

We'll see what happens--and what all we're dealing with, as the citizenry of this endangered country.

Ohio has 20 electoral votes. If, by some miracle of honest Republicanism, the Ohio electors are rejected (which they damn well ought to be), Bush still wins, if the Congress decides that less than 270 Electoral Votes is enough. (I don't know all the legalities of this--but Bush has more EV's than Kerry, even without Ohio.) This is presuming that Ohio's votes go into limbo--are not awarded to either.

However, if (by some additional miracle of the Goddess of Fairness), it is decided that Kerry won in Ohio, then Kerry becomes president. (Taking 20 from Bush and adding them to Kerry is sufficient.)

I wish they were challenging Florida and New Mexico...and...and... but it doesn't look like they will be. Just Ohio. Additional challenges would extend debate, and give Kerry more of a chance.

Power to settle presidential election disputes rests entirely with Congress, ultimately. I believe they can even throw out all results, and elect somebody else. (Not likely, though.) I believe Congress would have had the power (granted in the C.) to overturn Bush v. Gore, if it had been of a mind to. (Gore apparently stopped them from considering it, by asking Senators NOT to sign the black House members petition in '00).

These are "crisis of government" issues--Congress vs. Supreme Court, Congress vs. the states (and the people), the Supreme Court vs. Florida state court. Etc. So they try to not let it ever come to that. '00 was unusual--Supreme Court interfering in a state election and with a state court, when the question was ultimately a matter for Congress. Stinking, rotten decision, based on the JUSTICES' politics.

Blackwell and BushCons have done everything they can to blockade the various '04 lawsuits, so those have not reached higher courts. But even if they had--on issues of individual states violating election laws and validating fraudulent results--what objective authority do we have to judge those cases? We don't have any.

In all justice, Congress should schedule a re-vote of the presidential election. Transparent election (no BushCons owning the secret source code, with no paper trail). No discriminatory vote suppression. Undoctored Exit Polls, as a check on fraud. All on the up and up.

When hell freezes over.

Ever read "The Cold and the Dark" by Carl Sagan? The result of even a limited nuke exchange will be a frozen, dark world. The atomosphere cannot handle it. So maybe then we'll have an honest election--when all life on earth is dead.

Yikes. Getting gloomy this evening. It's not over til it's over. And until then, let the spirit of Thomas Jefferson be our guide!

Local, state by state campaigns...

1) paper ballots
2) hand counts

or, at least

1) a paper receipt for every vote
2) open source code

and 3) undoctored Exit Polls

A.S.A.P., while we still have the power.

[Yupster]

48. If no candidate has 270 electoral votes

then the House of Representatives, voting one vote per state elects the president.

Bush would win.

[roenyc]

25. guess not

but i suppose they will continue the investigation into voter fraud? i hope so. and maybe they will be able to look at the machines in Ohio.

The chimp will lose much of his "mandate" tomorrow if a senator stands because it will discredit ohio votes. will not change the outcome. because he is the king. but less credibility. i cant wait!!!

i predict bad vibes around the inauguration. the huge protest may make him nervous who knows. but things get bad again in July. we shall overcome. but its work hard work.lol

[genius]

26. Absolutely. WE bring the matter to the full attention of the public

1/6 will help if it is contested. Then the people surround the homes of their representatives and senators and demand that they throw Bush out. Nothing in or out of Washington. A general strike. It will take a lot to get the people to take action. We'll have to prove how bad Bush and Cheney are.

[Quakerfriend]

32. OOOOOO. I like that plan!

Get ready for a bumpy ride! It's in the hands of the people now! We must gather our strength and do things we never dreamed we'd have to.

[theboss]

50. In other words, no

We've tried to prove for two years how bad Bush and Cheney are and failed. Somehow a two-hour debate at one o'clock on a Thursday is going to cause massive upheaval? I don't think so.

[rumpel]

29. If we find the malicious software code used nationwide to tally

[Carolab]

36. Prove to everyone that they did--let's work on that n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

41. Yeah, they all involve Satan's domain and an endothermic reaction.

j/k

[Greybnk48]

42. Bullshit!!

To those of you who say the election was over on Nov 3rd and we should all move on, let's follow your argument to it's logical conclusion. Any time a party can commit election fraud and get away with it for 24 hours using well placed people like Harris and Blackwell(and in this case by controlling the media) they are the de facto winners--no harm no foul--don't waste your energy???

I'm glad you people weren't around during Watergate...It was only a silly prank--move-on. I say we keep working even after tomorrow to throw those fuckers out of OUR house! And I don't mean by "civilized means" such as voting in '06 and '08. Voting is broken.

[theboss]

52. I'm tired of "the Watergate took two years" argument

There is a big difference here. Howard Hunt and his Cuban friends were in jail. There was proof of a crime from the beginning.

(Oh, God, am I going to get nailed for this).

There's no proof of a crime yet.

[tjdee]

54. Plus, Democrats were the majority in both houses of Congress.

We can't even talk impeachment, or anything else related to removing Bush/Cheney until 2006. If we pick up enough seats.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

44. Ask and ye shall receieve

I just posted part 1 of my analysis of what could go down here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x242355

My hope is that it is hopefully exhaustive...

Steeled Against All,
FULL_METAL_HAT

This is my computer. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my computer is useless. Without my computer, I am useless. I must fire my computer true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My computer and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

45. They DID win this election.

But of being sworn in and Pres & VP, about the chance of two hobbits surviving in Mordor.

[spooked911]

46. they did survive though!

[foo_bar]

55. "nice shot kid! that was one in a million!"

[corbett]

47. Ohio Challenge Is Only 1 Of 3 Angles

Remember, the challenge of Ohio, which is the most compelling and easiest to prove because it's the easiest to understand, is only 1 of 3 angles. If Cheney and Hastert decide to ignore the Ohio challenge, the big guns come out. They are the 14th Amendment challenge

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050106/ap_on_el_pr/electoral_college_ohio&cid=694&ncid=1963&sid=96378798

and the criminal conspiracy case against ESS and Triad for rigging the vote nationwide. Other details are available at

http://www.redefeatbush.com/downloads/FL-challenge-2004-overview.pdf

and

http://www.redefeatbush.com/downloads/silencethevote.pdf

Given sufficient scrutiny and buzz from the media, any one of these items is sufficient to delay the inauguration long enough to obtain a full hand count of Ohio, in which case, Kerry wins.

[MeDeMax]

58. that was an awesome compilation of LBN articles

thnx, esp for the yahoo link...

safe to say it is "official" fruition of what has been troubling all thinking dems since the election.

I think that story deserves a 6 on a scale of 1-to-5 :-).

Mainstream media has to pick up the story today since it will be raised in a joint congressional session.

[theboss]

51. Nope

Not a one.

[peabody71]

53. Problem is, they stole millions of votes all over hte Country.

The public thinks Bush won the poplular vote by large margins. BS.
I'm sure the likes of Chris Mathews will be the first one there to point out that the little AntiChrist, I mean Bush won by 3 million.

[Carolab]

57. One step at a time

we'll just keep pushing on, okay?

[foo_bar]

56. if the electoral college worked the way it was intended, yes

The founders specifically created the college as a buffer between the people (state legislators originally) and their tendency to make short-sighted decisions. Before the two-party system installed partisan hacks as electors, the electors were expected to cast their votes as individuals (in good faith, no less!). If 20 of today's electors stayed awake in Civics class, we have hope of averting a dictatorship. Long odds considering the balance of power is education, but a scenario nonetheless.

[berniew1]

59. Yes; investigation must find clear evidence of fraud sufficient to

implicate major players in illegal acts(which happened) or clear enough case that Kerry won that public is convinced. If huge majority of public is convinced, Congress can't resist. Result is inevitable. People haven't focused enough on documenting and pursuing illegal acts and malfeasance.