Did people here really think Ohio was going to be voted out?

[WilliamPitt]

Did you really think this was going to be anything more than a public discussion on the need for election reform?

Did you TOTALLY miss the 5000 memos?

I think some people here are absolutely addicted to disappointment. This was a good day for democracy. The need for election reform was addressed in the Senate and House. Our Senators spoke with our words, after responding to our messages.

But go on with your bad selves. Tear yourselves to pieces. I'll be in the other room enjoying what we accomplished...and plan for the battles yet to come.

We spent four years dunning the Senate for not standing up in 2000. Now that has happened, and it isn't good enough. Unreal.

[meisje]

1. Not a Chance

[genius]

143. This an opportunity for our elected officials to show their character

We were realistic about the numbers. Today, every elected official who did not vote "aye" is a traitor to the people of the United States.

[molly]

2. I agree Will - I watched all the speeches on the Senate

floor and I was PROUD!

[Pirate Smile]

46. Me too. I guess some people were confused about what was going to

happen.

[Worst Username Ever]

3. I hope they didn't actually think that.

[crispini]

4. I'm wichoo, Will.

Open the champagne. We got heard. We got a Senator to sign. Amen, halleujah. This is the best day I've had since November 3rd.

I am SO FUCKING HAPPY TODAY. The fight goes on.

Edit: I really hope that although there was a lot of discussion about the possibility, that enough people were realistic to realize that this is what was going to happen.

[molly]

13. Levin too - so far!

[kath]

95. No, not Levin, sadly.

[Sweet Freedom]

22. Same here

This is the first day since November that I feel happy and energized.

[WritersBlock]

5. Nope. It was a great start today. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

6. Thanks...I posted a similar sentiment but you have the mojo

Liberals must try hard to see the victory here.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

7. I never did.

In fact, I'm glad two senators stood up! Hopefully, the debate will continue and the system will be reformed.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

8. I didn't, but a kid can dream, can't he?

I still would have preferred to have all the Dem leadership say NO Ohio, rather then showboating and than backing down. It at least would have backed up their words with Action.

I'm not upset about what happened today though. In fact, I am happy to see people with a (pseudo)backbone for once.

[incapsulated]

9. You haven't been paying attention Will

I just lurk here, but the impression I got was that a lot of people felt that way. Or that this was some step in that direction.

I thought we would be lucky to get a Senator to stand, myself.

I just hope it's an open door to some reps for serious work on election reform, that's all.

[Snivi Yllom]

10. after posts like "Kerry's getting into the game"

What did you expect?

[WilliamPitt]

20. And he did

This is the legislature, i.e. the public discourse. The courts are another matter.

[Snivi Yllom]

33. Kerry got in the game? By not even showing up to this event?

Now you are making me laugh.

[crispini]

39. This is seperate from the court cases.

In case you hadn't noticed.

[Casablanca]

146. Regardless, Kerry should have been Stateside to support Boxer.

His court challenge could have only been helped by his standing up today to be counted.

Kerry won't be able to "fly under the radar" to election reform any more than he was able to "fly under the radar" to the Oval Office. Election reform is an issue ripe for Repug exploitation unless the Dems take a clear, UNAMBIGUOUS, and UNITED stand on it. Flying out of the country on a crucial battle day doesn't qualify.

[molly]

43. He's not a screamer - he's a thinker

[Wilms]

193. No. Pitt is trying to make you/all, think.

But, whatever.

[Eye_on_prize]

276. "The courts are another matter" hmm. what is John Edwards up to these daze

could it be what I'm thinking?

[burned]

230. There was outside encouragement

Unintentional and probably due to being so close to all the sources of things. It's an emotional ride for us all to be sure.
I think truthfully even in my joy at what I saw today that I also hoped for some sort of redemption.
Today I have some heroes. Something UP happened.

Will Pitt is doing a fine job. Emotion can get in the way but I'll take a little let down over a big fat MSM lie any day.

[Sydnie]

11. I'm with you Will

We can now discuss it which we couldn't before. It has been reframed for us very well. It has proven that we can demand action from those that we vote for and be heard!

WE have more power today than we have in 4 years.

Glass is half full people. Don't spill it!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

12. Not me.

This is not pitfighting, here. This is now tournament karate, where you win on points.

Of course, you occasionally get to bury your fist in the other guy and drop him. Then you bow and apologize oh so sincerely. :D

[Kelvin Mace]

14. Thank you for all you did Will

We are getting what I expected.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[enough already]

158. Yeah

4 more years. Just frickin' great. Forgive me if I choose not to celebrate today's great "victory".

[mzmolly]

15. You said it on the addiction to disapointment. Man alive! I thought

DU was full of people "educated" about political issues? Man, was I wrong.

It's never enough. NEVER.

[cry baby]

205. Maybe those that want instant gratification are young people.

Maybe I'm wrong there, but I am kind of new here and it does seem as though people like me that have been around a long time (a really long time) know that anything worth having is worth working for and waiting for. Gov't works slow, it's intended to be that way.

[hangloose]

16. No today is visibility day and a day that will elevate the struggle

for democracy, which is a continuing struggle. So the question is what's the next move we need to make because this is only the beginning of the effort.

[saracat]

57. WHAT VISIBILITY? it wasn't covered by MSM!

It was all Yates all the time.

[blue neen]

17. Some of the speeches were absolutely awesome.

Lautenberg was great. I also thought Clinton and Obama were inspiring.

This is democracy in action.

[theboss]

18. I'm surprised that two senators voted aye

I figured it would be unanimous.

Interesting day. I will be curious to see how it looks six months from now.

[saracat]

41. Only one. Levin voted NO!

[incapsulated]

47. Now I'm confused

I thought Levin stood.

:wtf:

[kath]

98. Nope, only Boxer.

[theboss]

51. Well, I'm surprised Boxer voted aye then

I thought she might withdraw her objection at the end.

[JerseygirlCT]

253. I was sure I heard aye, too... very strange!

[hippiegranny]

19. will chime in

This is a good day. I never, not even for a minute, thought the election results (bogus as they may be) wouldn't stand, but for once, FOR ONCE, we had a group of Dems who stood together to voice OUR concerns about the process. This is huge considering how in the past they all just meekly accepted the Repub abuse and slunk away, silent and cowed.

[crispini]

174. A- MEN. you said it.

[nashville_brook]

21. this is a gold mine -- we need transcripts

today provided the opportunity to get all this on the record. our strength here at DU is disseminating information and advancing debate. every statement the repubs made against a fair vote is a chunk of krypton.

it's going to be a busy few days of furious writing!

[go west young man]

87. We need to get the Repukes comments out to

the foreign media. Paint them for what they are. Rascist, self serving, democracy haters. Lets one up them for a change. Email the foreign press people with headers like "Republicans stand in the way of democracy". Kick em in the balls!!

[clydefrand]

23. No, I'm pleased with the results so far and will be more

pleased when a more thorough investigation is done, when a better voting system is in place throughout the U.S.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. This is a great day for democracy, Will Pitt!

It would have been even greater if more stood up with Boxer, but I'll take it.

[merh]

25. I am very, very pleased of what has been accomplished!

History was made, not just that election refore has been debated and the issues raised, but that we, the people, have been heard. They know we are out here, they couldn't ignore us!

The grassroots efforts of this forum and many similar forums has had an impact, they cannot ignore us!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. I just didn't expect the vast majority of Dems not to have a backbone. n/t

[info being]

27. It will be a good day for democracy when the reality matches the rhetoric

I've reached my limit with all talk and no action. But that's just me.

[scottxyz]

85. I agree

Why bring up fraud and then vote to accept Ohio's slate?

If you think that Ohio didn't run a fair election, then reject their slate.

Dems did a lot today. But they still kowtow too much.

[kath]

105. yes, if the Ohio election wasn't fair, then the electors needed to be

rejected.

[Carolab]

260. They didn't have enough evidence to do it.

They kept asking for it. How could you expect them to prove the case? The Repukes would have eaten them alive. That's why Dayton held back. He was worried about setting a precedent of objecting without enough evidence.

[RollergirlVT]

of course not but...

we did hope that our representatives would stand united and contest the VOTE on the grounds they were not received with a free and fair election. We all knew no matter what, the election would be certified today. We just hoped that the dems would go on record that this election deserves to be contested and demand an investigation.

[Borgnine]

28. Of course not.

But now the reality of it is here... Bush really will be president for the next four years. I guess I was keeping myself sane by clinging to a fantasy that something would happen between the election and inaguration. They weren't serious thoughts, but they helped me get through the day.

[housewolf]

29. Will, you're reading too shallowly

All is not as you see it, dig a little deeper, please.

[understandinglife]

30. We The People...BEGAN today to reclaim our franchise: WE WILL PREVAIL!

[Generator]

31. No-and thanks for letting me feel a very small part in making history

happen or just watching it.

Kucinich was my highlight.

"These people were derprived their vote and their chance to change the outcome of this election."

Bingo. THE POINT.

[Walt Starr]

32. Yep, a bunch did, Will

but how this played out was BRILLIANT! The Democrats played this 100% right!

Right now, I'm astounded at how well the Democratic Party did today! This was BRILLIANCE! SHEER BRILLIANCE!!!

[fooj]

67. Right on!

I am in total agreement!

[mamalone]

162. Ok..I'm pretty new at all of this...

But can you humor me here and explain the "brilliance"...I'm not doubting what you're saying, obviously you know a lot more about these things than me, but I don't get it...
Not being snippy or snarky- I just don't get the "strategy".

[Walt Starr]

165. This was a long term strategic initiative

that played out the way it should have. We have now framed the debate as insuring voter rights. There is no way the Regressive Republicanarians can alter that frame! DeLay ended up looking like a madman opposed to guaranteeing every citizen the right to vote.

Now the correct follow through is to introduce a bill guaranteeing the right to vote. Any Republicanarian fool who votes against it looks like he doesn't want people to have the right to vote.

for once, we're shoving their own tactics back at their asses and they are terrified of it. You can tell by the way they reacted to it!

[mamalone]

176. Thanks for humoring me:-)

Do you think that today's events will really punch that issue through into the mainstream? Is what happened today enough? I hated hearing all of the Dems bobbing their heads and saying "Yassuh, Bush won".."Yassum, Bush got more votes"..honestly, it make my stomach ache...and I am a supremely non-confrontational kind of personO8)

So, what you are saying is that questioning Bush's win would have done little more than give them ammo against us? All of the "Bush won" speak was a mechanism for defusing that potential? This election is a lost proposition, so we focus on insuring that it never happens again by resolving the voter rights issues?
Am I getting it?

[FreepFryer]

189. Right ON, Will! You identified the core goal: reframing. You get a cookie!

[BigBearJohn]

228. EXCELLENT idea, Walt! Strike NOW while the iron is hot!!!!!!!!!

[Laurab]

232. I agree with Walt - this IS a day of surprises!

I agree with every single word he wrote - Walt, is that really you???

[brindis_desala]

256. I guess you'll be sending Conyers a thank you note...huh...

[NickiWitch]

180. I agree with you, Walt!

I think this was done the absolute correct way. I look forward to seeing what happens next!

Peace!

[BarbinMD]

34. Agreed!

Overturning the results was pie-in-the-sky. What's important is getting the issue out front. The issue was framed to be about voting reform and if we can successfully keep this issue on the front burner, we've won today. They may have the power...now...but they can't publicly fight against said reform, so in the end, we win.

"There art two cardinal sins from which all others spring: Impatience and Laziness." - Kafka

[Woo]

35. Nope.

Did you?

People are just letting off steam -- plus there is always hoping for something amazing to take place --...

[canadianbeaver]

36. William....peoples hearts will come around.....I hope....

Something was accomplished and please make your plans for upcoming battles going....I do think some, including myself, wanted the election overturned...but, there really was no chance of that...There is a chance that * will be brought down in other ways (if we are lucky).otherwise get ready for 2006! and then 2008!

NGU
NGU
NGU

I can't vote in the US but my thoughts and heart are with all who want fair and transparent elections...never give up!!!!

The fight is not over....fight for your lives!

Thank you for alll you have done!!!:toast: :loveya: :hug:

[bunny planet]

37. No I did not think that Will. I did however expect more Democratic

Senators to show support for Barbara Boxer and vote yea. It is discouraging. Can't help it. However, I think it is the first salvo in an ongoing battle to achieve election reform. I just wish the only people we were fighting in that battle were the right wing Republicans.

[princehal]

38. Overies and Balls

We finally saw some.

I am proud to be an American today.

Thanks, Will!

[Nothing Without Hope]

185. "Gonads" n/t

[glitch]

40. Of course not, but we expect to see a stand of solidarity with the CBC

Not a nod, a stand.

[Mistwell]

42. Did you miss the "I believe" threads Will?

You know, the threads posted EVERY SINGLE DAY SINCE THE ELECTION, saying that people REALLY believed that Kerry would be sworn in? That victory would be had today? Don't tell me you ignored those threads for the past 3 months.

Some people do not have the same goal as you. Some people do not accept this infinitely moving target of baby steps towards some vague goal in the far off future that continues as long as we can spin bad news as hiding some tiny silver lining to be hopeful about.

Some thought it could end today with victory. And, you knew that some felt that way.

[Raksha]

77. I posted several times on the "I Believe" threads.

I never said I believed Kerry would be sworn in on the 20th instead of Shrub. I said I believed justice will prevail...and I still do!

[yinkaafrica]

44. Why didn't more Senators vote with Boxer?

Why didn't every Democratic Senator vote with Boxer?

[kath]

111. because they're tutu-wearing wimps.

[enough already]

161. Wimps

Every last one of them.

[blue neen]

234. If they are such wimps,

then why are you here, on the Democratic Underground?

[Old and In the Way]

45. Hopefully, this sets the table for real election reform.

I truely hope that Democrats make a transparent, auditable and consistant national election a priority in this Congress. We cannot continue to question the results or the whole idea of elections is doomed. It should be the priority of everyone in Congress to see this occur.

Republicans ought to be just as concerned about this....of course, when you have control of the machines and the process, I guess you have a different perspective on the problem.

[seito]

48. As One of the Believers

I will publicly announce. I STILL BELIEVE.

Today is a great day for America. It is a great day for grass roots activism. Today is a day of hope.

I am so proud of Senator Boxer and the House Democrats.

[saracat]

49. They didn't stand uo, except for Boxer.

They gave speeches. But they couldn't even protest. I thought they would protest. I knew they would be outvoted, but I thought they would make a point.

[kath]

114. they wimped out once again.

[blue neen]

235. How many times in this thread DO you state that?

[fooj]

50. I'm still popping for the beers, Will!

I'm a happy camper! This is a truly monumental occasion! I think that realistically, we all knew the election wouldn't be overturned! Sometimes it's just hard not to dream...sigh........but it's ok. His legitimacy has once again been called into question. I can live with that!

[Gelliebeans]

52. of course not Will

these people had unrealistic expectations!
We have won this battle today!
But today is just the beginning to hold their very words to the test.
You did great and so did hundreds of other DUers and for this I am proud.
Thanks so much :hug:

[Blue_In_AK]

53. William Pitt, you are correct

It was a great day for democracy, and a big step up from 2000. This is only the beginning of the fight (as many of us have been saying). Don't give up, people. Keep the heat on.

[Verve]

54. Agree! But why couldn't they have gone for the GUSTO! Throwing

out Ohio's electoral votes would have punished Ohio, but kept Bush in the White House. So why didn't they at least try to take it that far?

[Miami Liberal]

55. I didn't think Ohio would be voted out

but I was hoping we'd have more senators on our side.

[tx_dem41]

56. Obviously, from the look of a lot these posts.

Our side has a lot to learn about political strategy and how to play it.

[liam97]

60. No will we did not

but the dems could have stood with Boxer

[Verve]

63. Obviously we do because we keep on LOSING!!!!

[yinkaafrica]

69. Don't be shy

I would like to know.

[Not_Giving_Up]

58. It IS good enough!

They stood and they said we're not gonna take it anymore! I'm a happy Democrat today!

[Chimpanzee]

59. Some of us are very pissed off.

I would have stood up for my constituents. But then agin I'm not a hemorroid sucking loser.

[wiggs]

101. I'm with you.

This whole process over the last year is very frustrating.

[MissB]

61. To answer your first question, no. (nt)

[cyn2]

62. Agreed, but wish Boxer had more support.

[progressiveandproud]

277. Precisely.

Sen. Boxer is gonna need all the support we can give her for the next few years. We need to counterbalance the masses of Repubs who doubtless are mad as hornets about her objection, or will be in time for when she goes up for re-election. It is a question of our integrity, of our dedication to the ongoing cause of guaranteeing the right to vote, whether we rally around Sen. Boxer. Let us shower her phone and fax lines, her e-mail, her snail mail, with gratitude, just as many of us inundated her offices with requests and demands to object to the Ohio electors.

And now, after one of the most amazing days of my young life, bedtime.

God bless you all. We are now waking up and discovering the truest, most legitimate reason for our efforts: we are a new chapter in the civil rights movement. We are among those carrying the torch of Martin Luther King's dream of justice for all.

If only we open our eyes, we may realize that our struggle has such deep roots, ones that transcend the last two presidential elections. Know that we're standing on solid ground.

[Triana]

64. Nope - had no delusions about it changing anything TODAY

...but I certainly think it was a significant, historical step in changing things going forward - not to mention the nice little black mark it puts (again) on bu$hit's little fascist party.

I HOPE that DU'ers won't give up on communicating information and concerns to those representing us in gov't if they had unrealistic expectations today. Our reps are obviously listening - at least sometimes, if not as much or as often as they should.

Just like VOTING, it is our DUTY as citizens to let them know our issues, our stance, our thoughts, and our concerns about the things we face so that they can properly represent us. Collectively, we made our voices HEARD and we should keep making them heard. Then, THEY have no excuse not to be our voice in gov't - which is what their job is.

The FIRST step in making sure they do it, is being able to VOTE THEM OUT if they don't. That is why today's FIRST step is so important.

Savor...

[illuminaughty]

65. To the contrary...I believe it's a great start

Here's to the growth of the cajones of the Dem party. As the Three Stooges used to say (who actually seem dignified compared to the Repubs)"slowly I turn, inch by inch, step by step"

Baby steps, guys, is how we will take back our democracy.

[catgirl]

Hear hear...

the dems that stood deserve great thanks. I love how the repug
speakers needed to rely on quotes from the MSM to fill up
their five minutes. They can't even think for themselves.

[demo dutch]

66. I absolutely agree. But keeping on them is key for the reform

to go forward!

[sepia_steel]

68. I wasn't expecting a thing

just hoping. Hoping for anything.

[Patsy Stone]

70. Nope

But I did love watching democracy in action. I love what DU has done and I am proud to be part of a group of people who fight the good fight with passion and courage. That includes you, Will. Thanks for all of your efforts and for your patience with the naysayers and the Loony Leftists.


:yourock:

[mirrera]

173. Loony Leftists?

Describe please...

[seriousstan]

71. According to many posts....YES they did.

I never understood how, but many posters most assuredly did.

[Firespirit]

72. It will be investigated now!

We must let them know that they cannot stop with their speeches. They must conduct a full investigation, in particular into COMPUTERIZED VOTING and vote-counting. Find out what happened.

I for one am satisfied overall, although I do wish that those who stood with Sen. Boxer had VOTED with her as well.

I also want another e-mail from JK to know his opinion of the proceedings.

But the battle is in front of us now. We have to push them to INVESTIGATE and LEGISLATE!

[kath]

116. Exactly who do you think will see to it that there isa real investigation?

[enough already]

166. I'm sure Hastert and Frist will make it a top priority

NOT. Complete waste of time today.

[Stand and Fight]

73. Amen to that!

Unfortunately, those who believed that Ohio's votes would be thrown out are being unrealistic. Nonetheless, their passion is commendable, but I would hope that they accept the very real fact that our stand today was about ELECTION REFORM. The ball is rolling, and this is definitely a time to celebrate. Once the work starts for election reform we are going to have to do a lot of what we have been doing these past two months -- working our asses off at the grass roots to make those in Washington, D.C. do their jobs. We have to pay more attention then we did when HAVA was being putting forward, and ensure that the hard tasks ahead are carried out as we wish them to be carried out. Remember, they work for us, and we've got to stay on all their asses -- Democrats and Republicans -- to FORCE election reform BEFORE 2006 and beyond.

[yojon]

74. Please help me, Will!

Will-

First **Thank you** for all you do here. Your clear thinking and beautiful writing are an inspiration!!

Seems to me like talk about election reform is completely idle. They would not let Rush Holt's election reform bill out of committee last year. Now that the pugs feel even more 'empowered', why would they go for election reform no? They have the one party rule. That's what they want. Why would they mess with it?

[yojon]

76. We gotta stand behind Boxer

even if her senate colleagues did not. She may be taking a little heat for her courageous action.

[dreamcollector]

110. I wonder the same thing

How will they get the votes for electoral reform when they are in the minority?

[Raksha]

208. Hopefully, by forcing the Repugs to come out in public...

as being AGAINST election reform (which they are). What we can do is bring that fact out into the open, forcing them to make it more obvious than it already is.

[corbett]

216. Great Job Today!

Your TO blog was a life-saver since I couldn't watch C-SPAN!

[loritooker]

75. I agree w/you Will, but I expected more yeas than just Boxer!

The Democratic senators let her twist in the wind. Shame.

[k8conant]

88. So did I (expect more votes for the objection)

and on the House side, Pelosi and Watt both said "reform" but "vote against".

[sd_UDO]

78. Are we supposed to read 5000 memos? No more battles, dude

We will have our own elections....

UDO

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/105/udo/

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/105/udo/

[Redneck Socialist]

79. Did I think OH would be voted out?

Of course not. In fact I didn't even expect a single senator to stand. So by that standard today went pretty well.

However how powerful would it have been if every democrat voted to support the objection? That would have sent a clear message that the integrity of our voting system has been compromised and must be addressed.

Watching senator after senator stand up and say that the system is broken, but then voting to accept the results of that broken system is, for me at least, deeply disappointing.

Today was a start, we sent a message, but that message could have been much stronger, louder and clearer.

[sd_UDO]

83. Most Senators are not ORANGE

They play it safe

UDO---elections in all 50 states and DC 6 times a year!

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/105/udo/

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/105/udo/

[consciousobjector]

80. Will, I hope you are right

But with only Boxer and Levin and no other Democrats joining, this issue will be laughed at in the media and election reform will go back to watered down HAVA ...the votes in Ohio will never be counted. The fraud in Ohio will never be uncovered...

[DearAbby]

81. Seems so, we have to focus on reform. that was the battle and we WON

It is on record now, This was not about overturning the election. It is about getting verifiable vote. We won the battle. We had many stand for us. Don't lose focus

[rdmccur]

82. Battle won but was it

a Waterloo? It's so sad that, while it took a very strong grassroots effort to just get this far, most of our leaders probably don't recognize that widespread fraud occurred in the last election. There were hints, though, that some of them did; but realized the futility (at this moment in time) or going further than this. Shows the powerful corruption we (and these few Senators and Congress persons as well)
are up against.

[rman]

84. So what's the idea? Either there was no fraud,

or there was fraud and we should accept the outcome anyway?

If there was no fraud, just a few mishaps (that happen in any election) then why bother having this debate?

Or is it that there was fraud but not so much that it made a difference?
Without an official investigation, how would they know whether or not fraud made a difference?

[justice4all]

140. Who knows?

I think your last sentence hits it. Any reasonable person would listen to the testimony and realize that it wasn't just a few mishaps.

We do know that * made every effort to unfairly and probably illegally skew the election process. * doesn't want that to be widely believed. I take some heart in the fact that the issue is getting a public hearing.

[all.of.me]

86. What is the next step...

...for election reform? I'm a little lost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Nope, I expected this to be the begining of t he battle

the begining of a new civil rights movement...

One that the stenography corp, and you know who they are will, will refuse to aknowledge

[derby378]

90. I'm happy that the process has been started...

...but too many Dems were hopscotching when they should have been slam-dancing.

Fight the power
We've got to fight the powers that be

[demo dutch]

91. I think there are a lot of people here that are new to politics!

and don't understand the nuances

[kath]

92. But Will, do you actually think that the lame-ass Dems will be able to

bring about significant election reform???
I really think that democracy is done for in this country.

[blue neen]

244. So you say democracy is done for in this country.

Only if we leave it in the hands of Republicans!!!!

[wiggs]

93. With all respect....

This is the expectation level we have for our elected officials?
We are declaring victory because the issue of election integrity was discussed in congress?

Are we such the underdog in this battle that we are happy for small, victories in principle only in which some senators were allowed to beg for a future discussion of reform?

Not enough.

Although hopeful, I never thought the election would flip today, nor did I really believe republicans would join democrats to discount Ohio. BUT I SURE WISH SPEAKING SENATORS WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE FORCEFUL AND LESS CAREFUL IN THEIR DISCUSSIONS. I wish I would have heard about investigations into Nov 04, federal crimes, likely fraud, uncertainty about the national vote, civil rights violations. I wish their votes would have backed up the rhetoric. I wish a stronger statement would have been made with more yes votes.

The democrats played nice, IMO. Maybe we are overmatched.

Will I know this is what you said would happen, and you warned us against high expectations. I don't think my expectations were high; they were reasonable if this were a sane system. I think yours, while accurate, were unfortunately low.

[enough already]

170. They tossed a bone today

to the base, but that's all it was. Had our Senators been really serious, they would have backed up the rhetoric with a vote. But the spineless jellyfish couldn't even muster that bit of "courage" (other than Boxer, who has bigger balls than any of the men in that body). Anyone thinking today was a victory is seeing things they want to see, not seeing reality.

And adding insult to injury, the Gonzalez hearings are going to be the big story on the news. This is a big nothing in the end.

[Vektor]

94. That's not what we're saying, Will.

I am very proud of Barbara Boxer. I am eternally grateful that the has done this. I am horribly disappointed in our "president" but I understand that level of corruption is nearly impossible to combat.

Ms. Boxer did everything she could.

[budkin]

96. Amen Mr. Pitt...

In a Government with this much Republican control... this was indeed a victory.

[Chili]

97. I heard Dodd say he would write a bill, I heard others say it too

...Jesse Jackson Jr. will push for a constitutional amendment, and others in both houses will push to strengthen HAVA. Those two things hopefully will converge at some point into reform that includes federal standards for elections from top to bottom, including post-election recounts. But we have to keep on them, keep it in front of them. Will the Republicans allow it out of committee? Even discuss it? That will be the key.

But I got out of today what I wanted: I wanted, in 2 or 4 years, to go back to those voters who stood in the rain and say to them when I phone-bank and call their homes, yes, they TRIED. The Democrats TRIED to make changes so that our votes count. Now we have to vote the selfish greedy true elitist party OUT of office so that these brave few can get the work done on legislation that we demand and to which we have a right.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slw]

100. No......

Okay, yes, it's my first post, and having lurked here for more than 3 months I'm fully prepared for the onslaught of "Newbie" comments coming my way. However, I had to finally pipe up in reply to your thread Will. I, for one, am floored at how DU'ers are responding to today. I watched the debates with a warm, fuzzy feeling about our party FINALLY doing SOMETHING. Then, I logged on here and came crashing down from a patriotic high. Come on everyone, in order to make a difference, we need to stand together to defend democracy. Can you not be proud of the Senators accomplishing something this year that they most regrettably did not accomplish last time? At the very least, they've now made their voices heard and will be held accountable by us to back up thier statements today with action in the future.

I agree with you Will, today was a GREAT day for democracy. We raised our voices and they were heard. If nothing else, this proves that making a rukus WORKS. Had it not been for this website and others like it, we wouldn't even have accomplished this 2 hours!! I say Congratulations to all of you for making a difference. THAT is the important thing here!

[WilliamPitt]

103. Welcome to DU

Yours is a welcome voice.

[Verve]

112. Welcome to D.U SLW!

:hi:

[dreamcollector]

121. Who heard?

[cry baby]

251. for one, it's front page on CNN.com. It was on Olbermann, too.

The word will get out, I hope.

[fortyfeetunder]

258. You are right

First welcome!

Second, I am elated this had happened. Imagine if we had gone for the jugular in 2000.

Now the Pugs don't know what to do with us. We are now a force to be reckoned with.

[shiina]

102. No.

[NMRedGreen]

104. I got what I wanted

and I saw which Dems I can respect, trust and support in the years and battles to come.

Looks like I'll be searching for a DFA type or even a greenie to support up here in the 3rd CD of NM. If Bingaman does run again, I'll be doing the same in that race.

[Paligal]

106. William- NO, I didn't believe election would be overturned

BUT, I already know by the remarks in Congress that the whole election reform issue will be dismissed by the Republicans for another four years. They miss the point, with their, "THe vote was counted and RECOUNTED, and Bush won". In their eyes, a win makes the whole fraud and voter suppression issue moot. That's the disappointment. That all of our hard work to reveal election fraud has been glibly dismissed and chalked up to "conspiracy theories". All of it.

[Not a Sheep]

107. I didn't, but YES MANY PEOPLE HERE DID. /eom

[Darknyte7]

108. Oh please...

of course not...

[davidgmills]

109. Of course Not.

But no one expected Clinton to get convicted after he was impeached either.

Still the impeachment was a stain on his record.

This has to be a small stain on Bush's record as well. A small payback, IMHO.

But I am a bit disapointed that not a single girly-man would stand with Boxer.

I think also the Republicans have to feel that the Democratic senators felt enough heat from their constituents that the Democrats will have to continue to show some spine. If we can put pressure on them to contest something that hasn't been contested in 130 years, they have to feel that we can put pressure on them to contest other things like social security, etc.

Now for the lobbying effort on what federal voting rights changes we want.

[newscott]

113. I agree with you Will

However, in my heart of hearts I truly want the result overturned. Who on here doesn't?

This is a good first step and casts a pall on Bush FOREVER! That much I can live with, unless the country goes straight down the crapper with this * in the WH.

We must reform our system of elections.

This mess cannot happen again.

[mirrera]

115. I have higher expectations.

This isn't a constitutional game to me. Call me crazy, but cheaters shouldn't win, on either side of the aisle. I am disgusted by the Republican insults and canned speeches. I have to listen to some Republican quoting the Acorn employee story... But not a single Senator mentions WA or FL? Or New Mexico?
I have a hard time with every Senator prefacing their statements with how they have no intention of overturning the election. A debate should be a debate, not a scripted show to prove they are earning their salary. The MSM will follow the same script as the Republicans. We will now be the "Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party". I applaud your ability be happy that the "plan" worked so well, and the electoral vote got challenged. But allow those of us that are disgusted with this wrongly seated president cheating his way in again, to be disappointed in a government that doesn't REALLY challenge those electoral votes. Not REALLY, not as in "You broke the law, so you don't get those votes!" I can't feel exhilarated, when George W. Bush is in the White House and my beautiful son is 17. Allow some of us PLEASE to process what we have to process. The movement we have formed certainly needs ALL our voices. You could fuel a city with my anger. I will be putting it to use locally. So save the patronizing for a better cause. I read and forward every article of yours, so no offense intended.
Maria

[wiggs]

129. I'm with you.

There is so much wrong about this administration, including the 2000 and 2004 elections. Just plain wrong.

And is hard to see them get away with it....all of it.

This is not a good day....it is another sad day, one of many, many sad days of the last four years, during which lies beat truth consistently and thoroughly.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

172. Well said...

It's the lack of justice that is toughest to take and witnessing it unfold is what hurts the most.

[dogindia]

117. sorry will. emotion took over me. CRIME IS CRIME.

watching this has made me realize that TRUTH is real. And when almost all are hiding it it is very emotional and extremely sad. America's story was feed to us as kids. To watch this is just very hard.

Almost everything seems like lies and cowardise The gulf between right and left is not wider. The gulf between all and me has increased.

For the dems to only talk about election reform and not about crimes of election fraud is not furthering truth or justice or the american way.

sorry about the superman thing.

[wiggs]

137. well said and thank you. nt

[pacalo]

118. Well said, Will.

They stood up for the People & they opened the door to election reform. This was history in the making.

My main disappointment is in my own congresspeople from LA. Vitter, who won Breaux's seat, is a rabid bootlicker of this administration, so there was no surprise there. Although this is a red state & Landrieu has an obligation to the less informed constituency, I'm disappointed she didn't feel the principle involved in this challenge enough to stand up. I feel as though I have no representation.

[jaime_176]

119. No!!!

I am really excited that this has happened and that speakers are making some very good points for our democracy. I'm especially glad that they mention issues not being able to come to the floor, being suppressed so they can't be voted on. This is very pertinent. I'm so thrilled and grateful to all who are speaking out, and for all who have worked so hard to get this to happen. Thank you all!!!

[Ladyhawk]

120. I never thought this would change the outcome of the election.

It's a small step in the right direction. From what I've read, there was a lot of rhetoric from Democrats, but only one vote to back it up.

When will they walk the walk instead of just talking the talk?

What happened is just about what I expected: a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing (so far). So no, I wasn't disappointed in the least. The Democrats are still timid, for the most part, but maybe they're starting to grow just a bit of a backbone?

Barbara Boxer is my senator. Today she's DU's senator. Be sure to send her an e-mail or give her a call. I wish I could think of an appropriate gift to send. I hope she doesn't pay too heavy a price for her courage.

[Cha]

Thanks for this post. I just got on and was

all depressed from some things I've read but when you think about four years ago and that it is out in the OPEN now. It is a Giant step for our Democracy.

And I imagine the fascists are whining to whomever will listen and the msm is spewing their propoganda like always.

[consciousobjector]

122. Sorry Will

Now in the house a Repug is saying "the Senate has voted 76 to 1..." that this issue is bogus because even Dems in the Senate disagree with the challenge...

Face it , this whole effort has been discredited by the spinelessness of the Senate Dems.

Boxer is the only one with guts and the rest of our Senators left her hanging...I'm really thinking of going Green...If my vote isn't going to count anyway, I may as well give it to a group that gives a s***!!!

[McCamy Taylor]

123. Course not. That was just to freak out the Freepers.

[El Fuego]

124. I think the point is to DEFLATE the "MANDATE"

I never thought we had a chance with the provisional count, recount, and election challenges, but I think it's vital that we put up a fight so that it will be evident that Bush does not have the mandate of the people.

I think the value in fighting like hell is to show the rest of the country and the world that half the US despises George W. Bush. We are trying to take away his fantasy of "political capital."

thus spaketh the newbie

[frankly_fedup2]

150. Welcome to DU El Fuego. (nt)

[El Fuego]

153. Thanks! n/t

[seabeyond]

125. Senate for not standing up in 2000

boxers ....... in reflection that was a mistake me not challenging the 2000 election. and good for her.

that was my favorite of it all

ready for the battles yet to come too. it was a good day

[48pan]

126. Aren't you the one who promised...

big things happening. I'm disgusted. The shrub is going to be president for four more years. This is bullshit.

[bemis12]

132. There was never a chance...

... of this not ending up with Bush being president. None whatsoever.

There WAS a fair amount of wishful thinking posting going on among some in here, but all the clear thinking Dems knew that we couldn't expect any more than a debate, followed by an overwhelming vote to accept the Bush electors.

Getting the debate was in and of itself a milestone achievement.

[kath]

127. Will, didn't you say that several others senators would vote with Boxer?

what do you think happened? Why the last-minute wimpout?

[livvy]

128. I'm with you.

I think today has been incredible. We did this. We made this happen. I don't care what the dippy Repugs said. Their spin never changes, anyway. There is an awareness today that never would have come to be without all the hard work of so many people.
I wouldn't have missed this for anything.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

130. No, I sure didn't but

right now CNN is running an opinion poll as to whether Congress should look into the Ohio vote based on today's objection, and 71% of the votes are saying yes. Inch by inch...

[Kota]

131. Thats good news, we are just getting started.

A great start!

[pacalo]

133. I feel so strongly about the principle involved here,

I included almost all of the Republicans (excluding those who are obviously a lost cause) on my e-mail list.

I was hoping at least one would stand up for the People:

Dear Senator ________:

I ask you to please stand on principle with Rep. Conyers in objecting to the Ohio electors. Our law is intended to serve the will of the People, not to thwart it. When the results of an election are in doubt, the moral burden is on the states to prove the results to be sound. The People have an inalienable right to full confidence in the results. This is not the case in regard to the Ohio electoral votes.

Will you rubber-stamp electoral votes from states that systematically, and indisputably, under-allocated resources in a way that disenfranchised countless thousands of African American, elderly, and working poor voters who were unable to stand in lines for hours in the pouring rain, or who were misdirected?

Will you rubber-stamp electoral votes from states that have obstructed every effort to resolve serious allegations of fraud?

Will you rubber-stamp electors from states that have refused to allow independent verification or audit of any voting machine or independent inspection of the thousands of disallowed provisional ballots?

Taking a stand against those who are trampling on our sole founding principle -- the principle of consent -- is something that people of conscience must do, whatever the consequence.

I thank the Dean website for giving me the above talking points. I was pleasantly surprised that other Democratic senators joined the wonderful, excellent Barbara Boxer in standing up for the People.

[Coexist]

135. I never thought this would overturn the election

What happened today was more than I ever dreamed of. My fight was always for a paper trail, verifiable elections and an end to voter disenfranchisement.

BTW, DeLay is on now and he really sucks.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

134. Will, my "abductive reasoning" analysis says yeah it could have ..

... If Dems were half as crafty and clever as the gentlemen from the great state of Bush, they could've done it -- LEGALLY.

Having absorbed over 3000 web pages in the last couple of months I can only say that not only it _could_ have been done, but more importantly and more firmly in reality, I really wish the Dems _were_ that crafty.

Though one kind of crafty is to not seem too crafty...

Your awesome efforts to help get us this far is not diminshed by those who wish 47 electoral votes could have been rejected today, and I'll _always_ take take my hat off to you sir!

:loveya: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :pals:
GET
:loveya: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :pals:
SOME
:loveya: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :pals:
REST

You deserve it more than anyone I know!

Sincerely
FULL_METAL_HAT (votes 'yes';) )

[candice]

136. This is a wonderful day for Democracy

...the Republicans are showing their true colors.

[Carolab]

138. We forced the debate.

WE did. Citizens grassroots movement.

See what we can do? We made them listen.

I'm proud of what we did. I'm very proud of Boxer. And very proud of the Black Congressional Caucus.

The Repukes were shameless. Disrupting and disrespectful.

[E_Smith]

139. why did no Ohio board supervisors object?

If the Ohio electors should have been objected to, why did no Ohio Democratic election board supervisors object?

[bobbieinok]

168. politics as usual, threats, possible loss of job or business, good ole

boy network??

most Americans still are unable to even imagine theft and fraud on the scale that probably occurred...probably especially those who've made it part of their business to see US has good elections

I find it very hard, and I've been following the story since 2000

info only at certain places on the internet.....many do not have access or never thought of using internet for political info.....and now MSM and others are working hard so if some get the idea, they'll 'know' anything different than the MSM spin is just kooky conspiracy theory stuff....

[roenyc]

141. No, but i thought more senators would stand with boxer

That was a bit disappointing. when the cons have an issue they stick together and line up in a row. they vote in a bloc. they are one voice. One ugly annoying voice.

thought we could be one voice. but this is still great. and i know that our campaign of letters and everything else everyone did got it at least this far.

We need to chill out and not go off leaving the party. perhaps work to make it better. and we really shouldn't voice our hate too loudly on a public message board. (i hate writing stuff like this). but people do see this stuff.

i dont think there is anyway democrats will ever become one mind like cons. just not possible but what we are is democrats and we need to stand behind our candidates so long as they are doing something horrible. that is a big part of the cons success. along with stealing elections and owning the media.

today doesn't warrant us jumping ship. nor does it warrant us hating our senator. made me ill and a bit sad but i'll get over it and wait for the impeachment hearings.

[justice4all]

160. I guess I can rationalize

that the dems didn't want to waste their energy answering the attacks that would surely result. The attacks on the certification votes could distract from the need for reforms.

We need to keep the pressure on the the reforms. Today was just a start.

[Ganja Ninja]

142. This was exactly what I've come to expect.

One Senator! Only one lousy Senator. If every Democratic Senator present had voted it would have been a serious statement. They might have even had to postpone the counting and call in the Republican's that weren't present. It wouldn't change the outcome but it would have raised a real stink. I don't know why I should give money to these people if they can't even make a symbolic gesture on behalf of the voters that support them.
Good luck with that future fight your planning for Will. Let me know when it happens.

[Pachamama]

270. I'm proud of my Senator Boxer & the 33 courageous Dems from the House

Historically, yes, today was a significant day for it to have a "vote" and "debate" like this...yes, it allowed the Dems to get this on the record and I'm happy and grateful for this happening. I'm proud of Barbara Boxer and I will support her and continue to raise money for her and I'll knock on every door in the state if she needs me to.

Will, I've always followed your writings and posts and I visit Truthout atleast 4 times a week. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one though...I knew Boxer would stand up...even before people suggested it here. I had some conversations with her and have known her for awhile and live near her in CA. I had a fundraiser at my house she attended last year. I have given money to Dems and fought my ass off for them and I'm sorry but I expected more from the Democrats....I expected that each and every Democrat would have stood up and voted "Aye" for this rejection of the Ohio vote. Would it have changed the outcome? No, but it would have been a powerful statement to show that the Dems are here and unified and we aren't going to back down and THAT would have made the news....Why is it that the GOP stands united on practically everything when there's "show" and yet we can't get a majority of our minority?

Why is it that Clinton, Lautenberg etc. could stand up, give great speeches and then either not show up to vote or vote "nay"? Please Will, impart this "wisdom" or the wisdom of Kerry being half way around the world on this day? Please explain, because if I'm missing something, I need to know. I am sorry, but my checkbook is now closed for the DNC...McCauliffe and Dems have happily taken my cash and I have given generously. I raised money for them and especially in the final months for the GELAC fund....I still get people I know who donated $1000+ calling and asking for their "money back" because they want to know why Kerry didn't "fight" for them....Well, I'm not as sunny about the "meaning" of today....Maybe I'll change my mind, but effective today, I'm re-registered as a Green Party member and I will support voter rights reform actively and people like the 33 Reps and Senator Boxer. I'm really upset and sickened....

[saracat]

274. Thank you.

[NMRedGreen]

144. I am thankful Will

and hope this is the beginning of seeing the Democrats in the House and Senate fight against the worst abuses of the Republican majority.

and I'll do my best to support the Constitutional Amendment to secure 'one person one vote' rights in every state.

thanks to all those who worked on the Hill and beyond, thanks to every DUer who make the calls and wrote the letters as well.

Be proud of those who did stand up, let's be united for a moment, please?

[No Exit]

145. Every journey begins with a single step. This is gonna be GREAT!

We have only begun to fight!

[FreepFryer]

147. Right On, Will! We're in it for the long haul. And we will win, with honor

[yvr girl]

148. Today was a Great first victory. The war isn't over, but a battle has

been won.

Did they march up to the White House and pull Bush out by his hair. No. Did you really expect that?

Most wars are won with a series of victories. Getting the issue debated today in Congress was a victory. The people entreated for a Senator to take a stand, and one did. It only required one.

If this day had occurred four years ago, the whole argument may have been moot. Several of the senators made good points. They heard you.

Now your job is to make everyone else hear you. You need to fight not for a party or a candidate but for your country.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

149. Now, now. You sound as upset as the rest of us.

I am finding it hard to identify a reason why this is a good day for democracy. I may have missed something, flipping between channels, and I came in a bit late, but not one Republican that I heard expressed a bi-partisan willingness to work on election reform. Instead each one has ridiculed and insulted the Democrats, accused them of undermining our democracy, of being frivious and spiteful, and of being obstructive, etal. Forgive me, but I guess I find it hard to accept we will most assuredly be ruled by a fascist dictatorship.

And how is it a good day for democracy when 99.9% of the senators we elected did not represent us today? I didn't expect many to sign on, as Boxer did, but I expected more senators to step up to the mic and make a decent effort to defend our position, and also I thought more would vote against the Ohio votes. I also expected to hear more clearly from the house and senate that not only do we need to fix the system for the future but we should not certify that which has not been verified.

I for one feel ripped up inside over this, and I don't think I am addicted to disappointment unless that means I shouldnt have tried so damn hard over the past 9 weeks as I should have known it was a futile effort.

[mirrera]

190. Me too...

Ripped up inside is how I feel. I understand the "strategy" of framing the debate as election reform, but they allowed the Republicans to frame them as frivolous, and the Republican's have the Media. Could you imagine the situation reversed? The republicans would have read from the same script, and voted aye. My friend had to work, and on the way home NPR concentrated on the 74 to 1 in the Senate. We need to raise our expectations!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

204. The Republican borg...

when is the last time one of them voted outside their "club"? Yet most every time the Senate or House votes on something, there are some Dem crossovers. There was not one stinking example of bipartisanship from the borg today, nor one who showed ANY respect for ANYTHING the Democrats were saying. I guess maybe I am too naive, that I still think judges should be fair, elected officials should have integrity and courage, and people should live by the Golden Rule.

[rdmccur]

151. Everyone, please

remember to contact Senator Boxer and offer her continued support in anyway you can (even if you don't live in California). She did a very courageous thing today!

[Smoochie]

181. Done it - she is a Hero!

[TruthIsAll]

152. Will, it's not about Ohio, it's about making a statement.

They could have done it.
Just stood up.

What stopped them?
Everyone is for counting all the votes, right?

They could have made a political statement by voting YES.
That would have been enough.

The history books will record the NO votes.
Not the speeches.

[zann725]

154. ...at least a Filibuster.

n/t

[tx_dem41]

155. Filibuster is not allowed during this debate under the rules of the Senate

[IndyOp]

156. I was holding out a 1% to 2% chance... Conyers says - HOPE! (n/t)

[frankly_fedup2]

157. What did someone post here to make you feel this way? I do not

think anyone expected any changes. However, maybe election reform, that was brought up right after the joke of an election of 2000, will finally get some discussion on the floor of the Congress and, hopefully, will not just get cast aside . .. AGAIN.

This to me is also a mark against Bush's legacy. They kept talking about how Clinton's legacy was trashed after his impeachment. At least the people voted Clinton into office.

George W. Bush's legacy will show that the U.S. Supreme Court placed him in office in 2000. This time in 2004, the Congress voted him into office. George W. Bush was never elected to office by the people in either of his two illegitimate terms.

Also, facts will show that exit polls ALWAYS were right until 2000 and 2004. Also, the company that makes the machines that scan the votes is run by an outspoken Conservative to stated publicly that he would do everything he could to get GWB re-elected (his words not mine), and obviously did a great job.

[ClassWarrior]

159. I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO VOTE OHIO OUT...

...OF THE UNION!! WTF???!! You mean we still have to tolerate the "Mistake on the Lake??" NOW I'm depressed...

:P

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

171. I MEAN FRANKIE YANKOVIC?? C'MON!!!

WISCONSIN's the Polka Capital of the World!!

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

196. Wow. No Buckeye defenders?...

:shrug:

NGU.

[underpants]

163. I agree

:thumbsup:

[robbedvoter]

164. Did I expect it? No. Would it have been the right thing? hell yeah

I am not going to lower my expectations. Fraud is not acceptable, the election was stolen, and lip service without a vote means bubkus to me.
Barbara Boxer and Carl Levin are heroes - and yeah, it was a bit less shameful than in 2001. But still encouraging the GOP to do it again and again.
So, I'm not patting myself on the back, but I called Boxer, Levin to thank.

[SharonRB]

206. Unfortunately, Carl Levin voted no

First they said aye, and then they changed it.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

167. HELL no.... But our low expectations are a sad commentary on this country.

It's sad that this country is so fucked up that we have such low expectations. We were just being realistic, I guess.

[Wilms]

169. TOTALLY miss[ed]

I'm afraid they have "TOTALLY miss(ed) the 5000 memos..."

[Career Prole]

175. Today you heard the 'pukes accuse the Dems of undermining

democracy.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to reframe that bullshit argument and participate in getting the word out that it is the 'pukes who object to every vote counting who undermine democracy.
They can be embarrassed into acting...look what happened with their ethics rule change with which they hoped to protect DeLay.
Shine enough light on the cucarachas and they'll scurry.

[bush_is_wacko]

177. Thanks for that!

I missed the whole darn thing and I so wanted to watch it. When I came back here after work I saw so many posts of disappointment I thought Boxer hadn't objected. I'm glad you said what I didn't have the guts to say.

[Niche]

178. Will it's not about throwing Ohio out - it's about

the Dem Party standing up! Although throwing Ohio out would have been the appropriate thing to do. I EXPECT MY PARTY TO STAND UP FOR ME AND MY FELLOW DEMS! That's it. They are complicit in the crimes of this white house (yes, i've said it again)...

Standing up. PERIOD.

P.S. Will, honestly - you did think maybe someone else would stand with Boxer didn't you?

Thank god I live in CA and I have a representative who stands up. How does everyone else feel? Pretty shitty? Yeah, you bet WE FEEL SHITTY!

[corky44]

179. No-But why not multi-state challenges?

Lytell (Re-Defeat Bush) said that would be a good strategy.

[indigo11153]

182. Love you, Will, but

Let's not tell people what to think or insult those who have strong feelings. I am pleased at what we got but it is not near enough or any kind of justice. We should not be happy. We need to keep our mad on.

[SharonRB]

183. I hoped, but I didn't really believe

the votes would be turned out. I think the Dem strategy was exactly what it needed to be. They knew we wouldn't overturn it, so they took the opportunity handed to them to get the issue on the table for further discussion and work. Now it's out there, the public knows it's out there, and they have to get something done. I had hoped we'd get a few more ayes to make a point, but I really do understand why they didn't do it. All I know is that if Barbara Boxer wants to run in '08, she's got my vote.

[genieroze]

184. Hey, we could hope. lol eom

[bread_and_roses]

186. No, I did not expect Ohio to be voted out. But I did expect

more than one Senator to stand up for the rights of minorities and low-income citizens to vote. There is no doubt in my mind that had the disenfranchised not been mostly minorities and low-income, the entire discussion would have been different from Day 1. That is institutionalized racism in action, and THAT is what they tacitly endorsed today.

Yes, I am happy that ONE Senator stood up, when none did in 2000. But the absence of any others undermines in the perception of the public her legitimacy and the legitimacy of the arguements she and others made.

And I too am planning for the battles to come, including those with the Democrats who continue to tacitly endorse the theft of democracy, the war being waged against minorities and the poor, the death of civil liberties, the abrogation by the US of International treaties, endless illegal war, etc etc etc. And every one of those battles has been made more difficult by the weakness of "our" Senators.

[cry baby]

201. But several senators spoke in support of Sen. Boxer's objection.

It's a start. Remember, gov't. works in baby steps.

[jswill]

187. Will Pitt

"I'll be in the other room enjoying what we accomplished"

Well, that shouldn't take very long.

You know, maybe some of us aren't "addicted to disappointment" as much as we're gullible enough to keep listening to people who come here whispering into the night about the amazingly wonderful things that will take place tomorrow, only to learn each morning that it wasn't really all that amazing. Looking back from the perspective of today, none of it meant a damn thing. That includes this afternoon's devastating disappointment. Flame away, I don't care, but the truth is we got all worked up over nothing at all, and we're no better off now than we were on election day.

Let us know when you're done amusing yourself in the next room.

[Starone]

195. Thank You Will!

I'm a 44 year old lurker who has been watching everything unfold up to today. I think DU is amazing and I thank Will and others for all the work they have done. You pushed me to email my elected officials; you encouraged me to keep watch of the lack of msm coverage; you created a place of support for me to "lurk" when my family was tired of talking about the negatives of Nov 2nd and my friends might have thought I was wearing the tin foil hat. I'm sticking with Will and DU and will go to the next level of activism fighting election fraud. Today was historic and proved to me that the Democrats, including John Kerry, have a plan to make sure Democracy is safe for our future. I'm a history teacher and know from my studies of the past that it takes more than a few months for any movement to make the kind of change we are seeking.

[empathy]

207. How can you NOT expect people to be disappointed

OK. I understand. They let Boxer go solo so as not to stick out their necks. It was pre-planned political safety. But isn't that terrible? Shouldn't they be willing to stick out their necks for what is right? For the minority? For the disenfranchised?

What would Welstone have done? One senator making a historic move is not going to get a lot of attention. 40+ senators doing so would be ALL OVER the news. Everyone would get to hear the facts and the questions we all have been hearing for the past few months if the democrats stood up to question the process in unity.

They made a statement today, and they made history, and places like the DU deserve some credit for this, but we were all hoping for more! Solidarity! Passion! Interest in the truth and equality! Justice. NOT more political positioning.

I'm cynical. I know there are good people in the U.S. senate - even some Republicans. And I am not SURE there was fraud in this election. (Amend that- I am positive there was intentional disenfranchisement of voters- I am not SURE there was fraud in terms of rigging voting systems-- diebold etc, though it seems plausible). So I am justly disappointed, William Pitt, that the Senators did not stand up in unison simply to express the fact that we know some votes were not counted, and WE DO NOT YET KNOW WHY.

Isn't that worth sticking out your political necks?

But, as many others have said here, maybe I am wrong. I hope so. Ill buy the champagne.

Trying to understand, g

[Starone]

215. It Was A Choice

Maybe the Dems should have stuck their heads out more protesting and voting aye on the floors of Congress or maybe they should plan and create a slower campaign for consensus vs. division in Republican controlled Washington. A plan which begins with Kerry out of the country and a few Congressman/women protesting the issue of having my and your vote count, not emphasizing the fact Bush is illigitimately in power.....but eventually picking up support from both sides of the aisle for investigation and reform to change things tomorrow just might be the best move. To be successful in the end they need moderates and people on the other side of the aisle to jump into this cause....they won't get them if they come on too strong in the beginning stages.

[empathy]

269. Fair argument

I understand what you are saying. I agree that slow, sure steps are necessary. I especially agree that with the need to stay centered enough to get some moderates to at least listen to them.

Still, I do not blame people here for wanting, desperately, to see signs of strong action. And I am not positive that this wasnt just a token gesture by the Dems to make us (all who wonder about the election) feel like they are paying attention. Will they contunue? I hope so. The people of DU and others may force them to continue.

Perhaps today (yesterday now) was a time when a strong demonstration would have helped more. But perhaps not, and perhaps it wasnt even an option. Maybe there were too many Dems afraid to take such a step.

[kath]

188. What happened to the other Senators that were going to vote with Boxer????

[blue neen]

241. Tell me. You had inside information on this that you didn't share with us

You naughty DU'er.

[kath]

245. I believe Will Pitt (and possibly others) said here just this morning that

several other senators were definitely going to stand with Boxer - HE was the one supposedly with inside information.

[blue neen]

282. "For the nth time"

Please read this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=249113

[coreystone]

191. I Yield My Time to the Floor For Future Reference!.........eom

[info being]

192. No I thought the issues would be raised.

They weren't.

[weeve]

194. No more campaign contributions...

... to those Dem. Senators who didn't have Barbara Boxer's back today. Inexcusable! When I call my two Madame Senators here in Washington State today ( who conveniently didn't vote, or voted nay ), I will in no uncertain terms inform them that unless they somehow can prevail in guaranteeing our votes will be counted, fairly and openly in the next election, they can count me ( and my contributions ) out. This is NOT Representation ! This is the final nail in Democracy , and where were our Representatives. Inexcusable!

[derby378]

197. I think you've got a good point.

The Repukes stand together for the most trivial of issues. This was a big one, and we couldn't pull it together.

[Eye_on_prize]

198. Anyone who "expected" more was apparently delusional going into it

Dems found their backbone, skillfully used procedural rules to enter into the Congressionnal Record and the collective consciousness that election fraud occurred and that it needs to be addressed for this country to still claim to be a legitimate democracy, much less a 'beacon' for other democracies around the world..

Bravo!! for the ALL brave Dems who dared to piss off the vote riggers publicly by exposing their crimes for the whole freekin world to see.

[rumpel]

199. It was more of what I expected, although I hoped maybe one

or 2 Senators would have voted for support.
The most important thing now, is to continue the grassroots investigation, and pressure people we put into congress to investigate what happened.

Yes, the irregularities are now in the open, it was forced out into the open by a handful of courageous people. I bet the majority of people in this country did not even know what was going on.
Now the questions need to be answered.

It appears the Senate Repubs were clever not to have spoken, except Voinovich.
In contrast all those, who have ridiculed, dismissed and accused this issue to be an obstruction will still have to answer the fact that with it, they have ridiculed, dismissed and accused the people, who were denied the right to vote. Eventually, people will rise up against this arrogance.

and the MSM still may have a rude awakening.

[cry baby]

200. Some had expectations that were too high. They are sad and

mad. I hope they will see eventually that history was made today and that we can go from here.

[jswill]

203. Really?

If today was so historic, what is now so different moving forward?

[cry baby]

209. The national debate can begin. Even repubs want fair elections

Don't they?

[weeve]

211. national debate... HA !

If the corporate media ain't covering it, there IS no debate. Solidarity , with all Dem Senators banding together , would have FORCED this complicit media to cover it in depth. Now it can be fobbed off as the one lone emotional LEFT COAST Senator conspiracy theorist. A sad day for Democrats ( although I do appreciate everyone's optimism here ).

[cry baby]

213. What would be your ideas instead? I don't see anything but complaining

from you. Do you think democracy is over?

[cry baby]

210. jswill, what did you personally expect from today?

[d_b]

202. Not for a second

[Generic Other]

212. No but I did expect Democrats not to stand with De Lay!

Christ, what cowards.

[linus]

214. wonderng

What 5000 memos are you talking about?

The democrats should have backed Boxer even though it would probably have meant losing anyway.

I have a feeling that the democratic senators might have done some horsetrading last night before this vote had taken place.

The Repukes might have promised the dems the right to filibuster if they did not stand up and be counted today. We will never know.

Why more Dems did not stand up in the house is discusting to me especially Pelosi.

Though I am glad that Boxer did stand up.

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Donailin]

217. No, but let me tell you why.

The Exit Polls are the only indication of widespread fraud. They were not mentioned at all today, unless I missed it.

With all respect to Ohio, Mr. Pitt, and all of us who fought for the challenge ( and yes, I fought with money time and hours spent emailing, posting and general public support of the effort), today was for me, a non-starter. I say this as a C-span veteran/junkie. When you listen for 7/8 hours a day to how washington works, you learn to 'feel' what will make the news in the evening, what story will stick and gain momentum and what will simply be a 20 line story in the lifestyle section of the post. In the grand scehme of things, what will happen is that it may prompt further reformation of the voting process. And that's cool, the no-paper-trail voting machines and the political hacks posing as unbiased election officials have to go. But in listening today, like I have been doing every day for the last six years, the republicans once again diminished the argument of the dems easily, and the dems, one after another saying "we don't dispute that Bush won Ohio" made me, quite frankly want to throw up. If that's the case, then they should have picked a different venue to air the grievance. "We believe that the results of Ohio are wrong, but we believe that Bush won Ohio" -- WTF?? And Kerry is a spineless twit if I ever saw one. Coupled with Gonzalez confirmation hearings, which are of much more national importance and interest as far as the GP and MSM are concerned (we DU'ers are not the general public, BTW), todays event does not come close to exemplifying the massive amount of effort that folks like you and me went through to make it happen at all. And we cannot blame ourselves for that, we can blame the MSM who accepts exit polls as flawed simply because Bush would never cheat (in their small minds). Which brings me to my point:

What I wanted most, and what I still feel there is the need to fight for is the exit polling data, because the exit polls had Kerry winning. I saw it with my own eyes, I was there godammit. Zogby predicted it. Zogby, the most respected pollster gets it worng and he doesn't know why??

I want convincing proof that the exit polls were skewed, that for the first time in exit polling history, ABC, AP, Zogby and all other exit pollsters did everything wrong and made mistakes across the board.

The only reason I think Bush cheated was because the exit polls said he lost. The only reason Ukraine went ballistic was because the exit polls said the winner lost. There is ample reason to believe that fraud took place. The voter disenfranchisement we will always have with us, but the machines and the exit polls, well, those are the areas where there should be NO way to manilpulate.

So when is the AP data gonna be released already????

[hereinmissouri]

257. Exit Polls!

I'm totally in agreement with this. How hard would it have been to say "I have no idea if Bush really won. The computer voting machines & tabulators were controlled by republican companies that won't release the code".

It's hard for people to imagine 118,000 (or whatever) people leaving long lines but I'll never forget the chart that showed the discrepancies with the exit polls vs. the actual votes & how this only occurred in the states that used certain tabulators. Aren't these senators trained in how to influence people?

I didn't expect the election to be overturned but I did expect some meat in the speeches.

[marions ghost]

218. No, didn't expect miracle today but am still VERY POSITIVE....

"Political reality" aside, I am truly happy today--for one thing I realize by reading this that so many here want something much better than this whatever it is..."faux democracy"...we have right now! You guys give me hope, even those who are unhappy at the events of today. Because I see how much others here sincerely want something better in the high ideals expressed in so many ways.

"cheaters shouldnt win"
"truth and equality"
"justice"
"I am not going to lower my expectations"
---------

OK some veterans of the political game might call holding these noble ideals "unrealistic expectations"--but they are ONLY unrealistic expectations in the current climate, where cheaters win everyday. They are NOT, NOT unrealistic expectations if we want anything better in America. The brave voices in the house and Senate who DID speak out today were talking in just those terms. These are not unrealistic ideals in the world we must create.

There was a time when I would have been among those deeply disappointed here. But I finally realized--it's not me who should roll over. It's them. It's not my high ideals and desire for integrity in government that is the problem. I had a couple of big disillusioning experiences in (small-time) political/social arenas. And then I realized how big our task is...things really are badly corrupt, and it's gonna be hard work.

All you who are disappointed today, I know this comes from a sense of being unheard and downtrodden for too long. It would be appropriate to express that to reps and other leaders. But take heart. It is only those with high ideals who CAN lead the way. Speak out and teach and lead. The numbers of those who want real democracy in America are growing. I KNOW my affinity group is with those who have high ideals. We must come together and pull together.

:)

[Raksha]

279. I think you nailed it with that post.

>>OK some veterans of the political game might call holding these noble ideals "unrealistic expectations"--but they are ONLY unrealistic expectations in the current climate, where cheaters win everyday. They are NOT, NOT unrealistic expectations if we want anything better in America.<<

Absolutely true. All my life I was led to believe that fair elections were something I could take for granted as of the perks of living in the greatest democracy on earth. I want to be able to take them for granted again, and if I can't there is something badly wrong--and NOT with me!!! My ideals are in no way "unrealistic" except by the corrupt standards of neoCON Amerika.

[floridadem30]

219. As always, well said William.

:-)

[O.M.B.inOhio]

220. did expect more facts

Long lines - that all that stuck out as the reason for the challenge as I listened to the Senate via jumpy dialup, having missed Boxer. IF they'd repeated the facts and demanded that Pukes address facts... Weak showing. Except for Boxer, they had the tone of some geek asking the school bully not to hit them.

[coreystone]

221. Well! Bill, You sound like “the empty part of the dough-nut”!

With all due respect!

I am quite pleased with Senator Boxer! But, one carrot in the empty bellies of the millions of uncounted and disenfranchised voters does not a meal make. There is no part in your original post of your thread which is anything but condescending to those on this site who may disagree with you. Did you miss the reality that Delay will never allow the Holt amendment out for public discussion ? Please! Do not utilize this site to instigate “quasi-flame wars”. Your original post, if specifically naming a member on this this site would put a possible “alert out” for an individual member being possibly “flamed” by you. But, you do not do that. What you did was lay out a “blanket flame” to those on this site as “bad selves” who disagree with you. If you were not William Pitt, and, had directed that to an individual member, it would have interpreted as “disrespectful” on this site, and grounds for the moderators to watch future posts on this thread. “BAD SELVES“!!!! Really!

Over the past several weeks, there have been other threads which have revealed themselves to be condescending to some members on this site. I can look at them, if needed, but, you really have spent a great deal of time “teasing” members of this site with UNFOUNDED promises of “wait until later this evening” or “wait until this time or that”.

You have developed a “cult” on this site for your posts. I remember when I used be a more active member of “The Smirking Chimp”. For a long while, all I did was “lurk” to find reliable news sources and editorials which were not being published or reported in the main stream. Your articles, which were linked to TSC, were a welcome perspective.

Unfortunately, you utilize your “William Pitt” copyright on this site to post, from the “other room” far too often. Why don’t you step down to the “grassroots” level, and stop boosting the credibility of your posts by your “editorial” name and post as EVERYONE ELSE on this site does?

I am so pleased that Senator Boxer put her best foot forward. I am very proud of Representative Conyers et al in the House. Yes! It is a step forward. But, we have very little but a 5 vote margin in the Senate for a “filibuster”. As the last word of your original post - “Unreal” ! How any legislation will be able to fall past the Republican Committee Chair people, “nooses in Committee”, will be able to make it to anything LESS than a public discussion, I don’t know. And, I don’t believe you do either! Certainly, the MSM will not be discussing this any more than the Conyers’ contest this day. Do you have any more teases??

By the way! The “Garbage collector” didn’t choose the best advice during his campaign for “dogcatcher” during the “Swift Boat” attacks, and, I agree that the events of today were never about the “garbage collector”!

[rox63]

222. I agree with you, Will

I had no illusions that the election was going to be magically overturned today. You knew that, and Kerry knew that. By sending out his email yesterday that strongly supported election reform, and by not asking that others not stand up, he was tacitly giving his approval to today's objection. I think he knew on 11/3/04 what the outcome meant, and that it would take a lot longer to fix the problem than the time between the election and today. And he was not willing to destroy himself for an impossible goal. Better to live to fight another day, when he might have the chance to help root out the cancer eating away at our democracy.

[KTM]

223. No, not what I thought

But I DID think the Dems would stand and make a statement that could not be brushed off. NOTHING meaningful will come of this. ONE Senator stood and objected ?!?! INSTANTLY written off (I watched the news all damn day) as "A few fringe Dems out on a limb."

Kerry ? Absent. Empty promises, words with no weight. "I plan to introduce a plan..."

I lost a TON of respect for my party today. If they will not stand together, if they will not raise bold opposition to right wing tyranny, they do not deserve their offices, IMHO.

"The need for election reform was addressed" ?!?!? It was made into a JOKE on every news broadcast I watched. You go ahead into the other room and celebrate... not me. Today, our party had a chance to speak LOUDLY, to RAISE AWARENESS. They issued a meek challenge that was DISMISSED by the media, RIDICULED by the right, and which will leave NO LASTING IMPRESSION on the mass public. They sat and let this opportunity, like so many others, slip away for fear of of the repercussions.

"Now that has happened, and it isn't good enough." Did it happen Will, really, like you thought it would ? Did you see the unity in the party today ? Did you see the willingness to fight ? Did you see anything come out that will filter and take root in the collective consciousness of anyone who wasn't lucky enough to be watching C-Span from 1:00 till 3:00 ? I didn't, and I'll not be celebrating.

[Daphne08]

224. I believe that this was a very good day for democracy

and 'we the people' made it happen!

I also believe that election reform will ultimately be the product of today's action, but it will take patience, time and discussion.

[tavalon]

225. Last night

When you said that you thought people would be pleased, the thought that crossed my mind was that only those people who were expecting a challenge today, not the people who were expecting a new president, would be pleased. And there were many who held out that Kerry would be installed despite the 5000 memos.

I, for one, became completely pleased when I heard about Senator Boxer being willing to stand.

[pointsoflight]

226. Completely agree with your take, Will.

This was a good day for democracy, and WE DID IT FOLKS. What happened today is completely our doing!

[Silver Gaia]

227. I have a hard time with this attitude I'm seeing

in some folks. Even Randi Rhodes pissed me off today. I love Randi, but I got so mad at her for dissing what happened today that I turned the radio OFF. I couldn't take it.

I thought things went very, very WELL today. I got MUCH more than I had hoped for. I did not EXPECT the Senators to vote any differently than they did. In fact, I did not really EXPECT any of them to sign on with the House, much less stand up and speak. When I learned that Boxer was going to sign, I was so happy I cried! But I EXPECTED her to be standing all alone. That's not what happened, though. We heard voices addressing this issue from BOTH the House and the Senate! Their comments are now a part of the Congressional record. I was amazed and happy and so very, very proud today. Still am. (My eyes still burn from crying, too!)

We worked HARD for this--some more than others,of course (nodding to Will and so many, many others here and elsewhere who worked themselves to exhaustion for this day). For some to be dissing what happened today feels like a slap in the face. It makes me sad to see all the hard work that has been done be so unappreciated. I was up at 3:30am writing letters AGAIN, and I'd do it all over. I am overwhelmed at what actually did happen because of what we all did together.

My God, people. This is an auspicious event. It's a step in the right direction--FINALLY. This is just the BEGINNING...

So, be proud. Be happy. WE DID THIS.

[BigBearJohn]

229. I DONT CARE WHAT ANYBODY SAYS. THIS IS GREAT!!!!!!!!

I wasn't expecting a miracle, but having one Senator
put her career on the line is a MAJOR miracle. MAJOR!!

[LiberalCompassionate]

236. today was important

The Honorable Senator Boxer is my HERO!

She did the right thing. Alone. True grit. She, no doubt, is quite aware of the retaliation and character assassination she will now suffer.

A true patriot she is.

[coreystone]

231. The Kerry Concession - “I'll still have yours”.....

Link: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_1103.html
Snip>
“Audience member: We still got your back!
(Kerry) Thank you, man. And I assure you – you watch – I'll still have yours.
<snip


He is one of 99 that didn’t!!!!!!!!

[KatieB]

233. Just wondering why Senators could not vote yes just for appearance sake

It's not like the Repugs aren't going to trash them no matter what.

[FreepFryer]

278. I posted this elsewhere, but thought it helpful.

I think it's pretty obvious why only one Senator (Boxer, CA) voted yes.

...anything less than a totality of Dems joining her (which from Schumer, Dayton, etc. wasn't going to happen) would only provide a platform for the GOP to highlight the split in opinion in Democratic circles.

One vote, and one vote alone, is the minimum exposure, maximum payoff move. Look at it!!!

With that one vote, for which she can be amply supported by nay-voting Democrats, we got the House and Senate to debate, and our reps to go on the Congressional Record. Conyers' report too.

Today we heard our representatives debate the issue of Election Protection, with a state's votes in the balance. Worth a goldmine.

[KatieB]

237. BTW - not one REPUG who attended House session voted for the Objection

But if you watch the C-SPAN piece you really admire the Democrats because it is clear that they have to face some real horrors on the "other side of the aisle" every day (Repugs who spoke really came across as liars and distorters..Delay was a real trip).

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[me b zola]

239. This is more than I had expected

I am so proud of our CBC & Senator Boxer, I really am going to buy them thank-you cards and send them out tomorrow.

My fear, though, is that the crimes that occurred in Ohio and nation-wide will go unpunished. I am not spiteful; I just so deeply think to allow their crimes to go unpunished would be a crime on our part. Etched in my memory are the Representatives who spoke to these issues(I don't get CSPAN-2), and those who spoke timidly. I believe that the congress had MUCH more time to consider the facts of this election than they do to consider a bill placed before them that must be voted on.

Yes, today was a great day. Better than I thought ( I kept skeptical thoughts to myself). Words cannot begin to express my gratitude for the Congressional Black Caucus & Senator Boxer. As I fall asleep tonight I will consider what more I can be doing.

[kath]

240. Repug crimes almost always go unpunished. They stole another election

(that's 3 now) and got away with it. They got away with Iran-Contra, which was TREASON, dammit. (and people refer to Ollie North as a *hero*, which totally gags me.) They led us into a war based on LIES, resulting in the deaths of more than 100,000 people and the horrible wounding of countless others. They outed a CIA agent under deep cover, and seem to be getting away with that one, too. Then there's LIHOP (or MIHOP), and they won't be punished for that one either.

But, hey, at least Chimpyshit isn't getting blowjobs in the Oval Office...

[weeve]

259. Apparantly Condi...

... and the Chimp. NO. I can't go there. Sorry for the mental image.

[Laurab]

242. No I thought it would be less than it was

I was actually pleasantly surprised. It WAS a public discussion on the need for election reform, which was disputed by the repukes who praised the "fair", "nonpartisan" Ohio Election, and said that if we argued for fair elections, it was a threat to democracy.

People need to know that repukes think fair elections would be a threat to our democracy....I think even many repukes would see something wrong with that picture.

[coreystone]

243. WHERE IN THIS THREAD IS "william pitt"?

I come from the school that if one starts a game, then one should finish it. I hope that you havn't used the membership of DU to bolster your "blog"!

You have posted:

Did you really think this was going to be anything more than a public discussion on the need for election reform?

Did you TOTALLY miss the 5000 memos?

I think some people here are absolutely addicted to disappointment. This was a good day for democracy. The need for election reform was addressed in the Senate and House. Our Senators spoke with our words, after responding to our messages.

But go on with your bad selves. Tear yourselves to pieces. I'll be in the other room enjoying what we accomplished...and plan for the battles yet to come.

We spent four years dunning the Senate for not standing up in 2000. Now that has happened, and it isn't good enough. Unreal.

Since you utilize your professional name on this site, you are open game. Respond to some of the posts to YOUR thread. Maybe #42,78,#170,#149 or any others. You have a very proficient gift for writing, but you are quite deficient in confronting objections to your assertions. Sorry! You are a whimp!!

Start posting without you're "copyright" name and I will be more respectful of the NON-MSM cover that you utilize!

[MadLinguist]

254. It's a good point you make, coreystone

Fine, Pitt gets us to read his stuff and maybe we are all supposed to just say -- yeah he one busy dude, no time to be respondin to the shuffling masses -- but then he does ask DUers to help him with info that goes into FYI, PssstOut, and whatever else. I could even say for tonight, --OK WillRiversPitt, you did alot of stuff, protested, wrote, drank, did some service and so, some curt Hemingwayesque resolute responses are about what we should expect from you; we have become accustomed, if not endeared to, that "style" from you-- What I have even more a problem with is why your PssstOut doesn't chide the public officials in the way that you chide us. Why do you do us like that? We reading your stuff, dude, give us something back.

[hippiechick]

255. Thank you, Coreystone.

:hippie:

[hansolsen]

246. Today we heard the echoes of all those votes for IWR. In 2002 the Dem

leadership voted for IWR, knowing it was bad policy, unjust, etc, but fearing the punishment of conservative and religious voters if the Dems voted their conscience.

Today all those carefully calculated and contrived Dem nay votes were posted in fear. The Dems who held their colective noses and accepted the Ohio vote, knowing it was corrupt, didn't dare vote their principles.

Now Ms Boxer and the 30 House members did step up and show the way. As of right now Senator Boxer is my favorite candidate for 08.

As for the rest, they are like little children hiding behind her skirts, their noses dripping, tongues tied, potent as balls on a mule. That's what we have to work with.

[Laurab]

247. I'm a Proud Democrat - here's my take on what happened today

I posted it on another thread, but it's buried somewhere. It's kind of a review:

The GOP said honest elections were a threat to democracy.

The GOP said asking for honest elections was a terrible thing, and would lead to serious repercussions in the future.

The GOP praised Ohio for it's "fair", "bipartisan" election.

The GOP (I think) know how to read, because a lot of them read the same editorials.

The Democrats can read better, and even retain the information, because obviously, they had read the 102 page report.

Democrats can write their own speeches, instead of reading editorials.

The Democrats stuck to the issue at hand (election reform) instead of repeating that * was elected fair and square, over and over.

The Democrats DO seem to care about democracy, and even the Constitution.

The GOP made it quite clear they don't give a shit about either of those things.

I have never been so disgusted by a group of people as I was by each and every rethug that I had the misfortune of watching today. I was hoping that one, just one, would speak to the issue that was being discussed. I am now convinced that they're ALL thieves and liars.

[earth mom]

248. No, but

I didn't expect the Senators to not back up their words with a vote. It was a symbolic action and they dropped the ball for their own protection. I'm not down with that, sorry.

[valis]

249. Right on target Will!

[KaliTracy]

250. nope, had no illusions of that at all. But I do want the person/people

culpable to not be able to hide -- for people to take the Ohio claims seriously -- for people to realize that it's not about this neighborhood or that neighborhood with problems, but not "mine" -- I want people to Wake up, and realize that ALL of us are in this together! This is just the beginning, and I am in it for the long haul.

on edit: AND I think this was the only way to wake up the discussion, and to enlighten people of the severity of the problem. Will we have hard work to do battling the "spin" -- absolutely. But when we talk to people who are "outraged" that the Democrats would "grandstand" like this -- we need to be prepared to continue the dialog and educate -- and not get too defensive.

[JerseygirlCT]

252. I agree Will

There's no getting around that today was a big day. We should be proud of what was accomplished. Hopefully it will be followed up on aggressively. We cannot change the president, but we MUST insure that the next time our votes all count. We've got to continue to persuade the country that this matters -- to everyone.

Can someone explain to me, though, why only Boxer voted yes? Why not the other guys? I'm not mad, just puzzled. If you just stood up and talked about supporting the objection, why vote against it?

[kalidas]

261. A second election was stolen from us. That's an accomplishment?

This country is coming unglued. George Bush and Karl Rove have stolen two consecutive elections and are leading this country down the road to ruin, and you think we've accomplished something? Well I beg to differ. It's TOO late!!! The world is getting ready to give the US it's payback in the form of collapsing its economy. If we somehow manage to stay out of the poor house through it all, that will be the real accomplishment.

And in the Middle East, the war will escalate catastrophically thanks to the failed neocon policies of unilateral aggression, and all this while our fellow citizens remain asleep. Our cause is lost and so it our country. This year will be shrouded in darkness for America and the world. Good Luck!

[KoKo]

262. No...I didn't. BUT KERRY SUCKS TO HELL AND HE AND HIS BROTHER

"CAM" can go dig DITCHES IN HELL for ALL I CARE!

Boxer, Stubbs-Jones and all those who gave support will have places somewhere in the sky...but the rest can go do hell and be run over in a ditch for all I care about their f**ing asses.

Let them rot in the Senate and House...and let the voting machines just tally votes for them like in some "Sci-Fi" movie.

No real votes then why the hell should we bother...

Just so you know...I was a precinct vice-chair here in NC....and worked hard in this election...aside from standing out on street corners protesting Iraq Invasion (prostesting before and after) protesting Cheney and Bush when they came to NC aside from all the "Fax, Phone E-Mail efforts and the rest being here on DU for the last over three years now...

"Selection 2000" made me an ACTIVIST....Kerry/Edwards have turned me against every wanting to vote again. And I've voted since I was first able legally to do so.

What a DAMNED DISASTER THOSE CANDIDATES WERE. :puke: They ran as fast as they could and let EVERYONE ELSE DO WORK FOR THEM!!!!

AND...we were told "THEY HAVE A PLAN....HANG TOGETHER...KERRY IS A GREAT CLOSER...HE'S ON THIS WITH HIS 17,000 LAWYERS...

what a Pile of crap...and we sucked it up.....:puke:

[kerrygoddess]

263. Thank you

Thank you... we've come a long way and we still have a long way to go. You've done so much to further cause. It is appreciated.

[bunny planet]

264. All the doom and gloom around here today got to me in my earlier post

on this thread. I am feeling much more positive on reflection about everything that happened today in Congress. I think we had some real heroes stand up for us and some others come out with support. Most of all we got the issue out there. And many of the Republicans looked like the sore-winning, racist, democracy bashers that they are. Tom Delay in particular stood out as the sleazy, mean-spirited person that we've all come to know. The hypocrisy and vitriol he showed was on display for all, Democrats and Republicans to see. We started fighting back today. Thank you for all you've done and are doing. Just wanted to say that.

We will fight again tommorrow and the next day and the next. I feel very hopeful tonight. I think all the optimists came out after midnight when it was safe again. Today it was choppy out there in DU land.

Kick!!!!!!
:kick:

[The Judged]

265. Bullies thrive on fear! Today they saw "We the People" coming together!

Divide and Conquer almost worked! The people haven't rolled over yet!

The Congress was bought and paid for by Corporate America, and yet, they stood for 2 hours for the people!

Hopefully, Congresspeople will realize that they work for us, and will pilfer the corporations and put the money back where the corporations got it from!

There are less Corporations than people, and corporations have to lie, cheat, and steal to keep their Congresspeople, while people merely need to vote in unity for or against them.

[pauldp]

266. Today was great!! NOW... Next target; The Media

The big TV conglomerates, the NYT, NPR etc. will all need to be dealt with somehow, but I say we start with Al Franken. That spineless poser progressive. We should take over his blogs, plant callers and force the election reform issue onto his show.

Barbara Boxer has more balls than Franken ever will.

[nursebear]

267. I've been lurking...

I've been lurking for 3 months or so, just to see what was going on...and I saved a bunch of messages from people who seemed a bit "out there" as far as my tastes go...

Maybe it was a small group of people, but there have been a LOT of messages posted here since Nov. 3rd that Kerry was going to be sworn in as Pres. on Jan. 20th. Even including posts from earlier this week.

I'm hoping above hope that it really isn't most of y'all who think/thought that way.

I got involved in the Libertarian party a few years ago, those were some tin-foil hat wearing freaks. I don't need to get involved in another political party (or at least a segment of 'em) that are that radical.

[pauldp]

268. Hope is what got Boxer to stand up today.

Some people here may not be realists but their commitment to the cause of democracy and their hope that John Kerry would prevail against overwhelming odds is what spurred them on to action. Without people like that, the important debate that took place today would not have happened. I for one think understanding should always trump belief but I never deny people their convictions, for without them life would not be worth living.

By the way. Welcome to DU nursebear!!!

:hi:

[snot]

271. Thx for this post; many do understand impt groundwork was laid today

[donheld]

272. I learned a while ago not to get my hopes up

of course i've been wishing for a miracle, but i long since gave up hope on miracles. We did what we could and we have to keep it up, but we can only do so much.

[juajen]

273. Well, I'm coming in very late to this thread, but

NO, Will, I didn't. However, in my fantasy with John Kerry and a white horse I dreamed up just about anything you could imagine, and some things you definitely couldn't. LOL

Good job today. No disappointment here at all. T'was more than I expected. A very, very good day.

[eridani]

275. So what cover did we give any of these people?

As someone said in another thread, there were only 100 people or so demonstrating. (I suspect most potential demonstraters are saving it for the inauguration.) The Ukrainians overturned their election because there were a hell of a lot more than that.

[regweb]

280. We accomplished more than many think

I think what happened yesterday was historic! Let's face it, we just didn't have "the goods" sufficiently to "overturn" the election -- and no thanks to Kerry, by the way.

Despite this, a lot of our guys spoke up about the issue and did get some press.

Remember that Nixon was reelected by an electoral college landslide. It wasn't until after the reelection that we got the goods on him.

We need to continue to support efforts to get hard evidence -- in the form of the testimony of those who actually fixed the machines, etc. Then use this evidence to impeach the bastard.

The war is far from over. It's just a change in the battlefield

[ruthg]

281. What do we do next?

It was a great beginning. I have decided to become an optimist in my old age. What should the next move be?

[mimitabby]

284. in the state of washington, it isn't over yet!

we're still fighting to keep our Democratic Governor elect!

[Danascot]

283. What are the chances

we'll see any indictments for the many violations of elction laws in Ohio? Conyers, Boxer and many others accomplished much in taking the case as far as they could in DC. It seems to me that some indictments for the most egregious violations would do much to convince the average American that there was fire as well as the smoke that the Conyers report identifies. Most Americans are fair-minded, feel that the right to vote is sacred and will be outraged if deliberate disenfranchisement can be proved. I think it would be a positive use of our energy and support to go after the evil-doers in Ohio.