Everyone whos never voting Dem again...

[Machiavelli05]

You can try and try to divide the Democratic party. However the Dems will be the champions of voter reform - and your whining now will never materialize into a significant movement.

All 30 of you on this board who are upset, go ahead and leave. Senators and Congressmen get letters every day saying that people wont vote for them ever again for such and such reason. Ive read some of them - and they always sound completely unfounded. Every vote may count, but a "leave the Dem party" will never get traction and will never draw votes away from anyone.

If the leftist wing of the Democratic party could win election - you would be better represented.

Get over it - and be thankful that hopefully our country will be able to reform these horrible voting practices.

[seito]

1. I love it

"All 30 of you on this board who are upset"

Today was a GREAT DAY.

[Machiavelli05]

5. Im just so upset by peoples' attitude here

and their complete disregard for a logical outlook.
Everything for them must be an extreme and bold statement made to piss off as many people - instead of work to get results

This attitude EMBOLDENS the Republicans and causes legit Dem movements to lose credibility.

[Casablanca]

13. What really emboldens Repugs ...

What has always emboldened Repubs in when Dems and progressives try to play subtle positional politics around their bold (yet wrong) brand of politics.

This is why I don't give a FF whether they're emboldened or not, because I know that they won't stay that way if I keep fighting for the good cause.

[Machiavelli05]

19. Dems hopefully wont be so "subtle" now.

I hope many Dem members propose many different pieces of legislation for election reform so that in 2006 we can say "look we tried and the partisan obstructers, the GOP, kept getting in our way from ensuring every american gets to vote... theyre unpatriotic and unamerican!"

A little of their own medicine ;-)

[searchingforlight]

18. Leaving the Democratic Party may not seem like an option to you but

it does seem like there is a huge lack of balls on our side of the isle.

I believe that many of these people who are threatening to leave have been thinking about an alternative for some time.

When I look at the lock step voting of our star Dem's over the last four years and their inability to take a real stand, I think there does come a time to consider a change.

I am reminded of the outrage we all felt when we saw the Black Caucus scene in F9/11 and how no Dem senator stood with them. I think about how many Dems voted to support the War in Iraq. I think about how many voted for the Patriot Act. The list goes on and on.

I have not decided that I will never vote Dem but I have decided that I will be more open to a third party then ever before and that I will never let the Dem officials tell me who is and isn't a viable candidate.

I believe that we would have been better off to run DK than JK. At least DK's beliefs and positions would have made a better statement as to where we should be as Dems.

[KittyWampus]

31. I Agree With 101% This Forum Is So Disgusting I Can Only Read Bits

[LittleClarkie]

36. I've often wanted to take a head count

It seems to be the same few over and over and over.

Each day they let us know that their attitude hasn't changed from the day before. Um... okay, thanks... see you tomorrow....

[Laura PourMeADrink]

2. "Get over it"???? Wow where have I heard that before???

[Machiavelli05]

8. Not get over the theft

Get over the fact that 43 senators didnt find it wise to trumpet these things - and instead will work to implement meaningful reforms.

Words mean nothing - actions mean everything.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

23. Standing up for what is right and pushing election reform are

not mutually exclusive

[Machiavelli05]

24. if all the dems stood up today - it wouldnt be able to be a bi-partisan

effort in the future.

Now the party can say "look guys, we dont know what all this is about, but we really need to do something about reform.. lets get it done"

Dems couldnt risk theri credibility with the country.

If they lost that we'd REALLY be SOL.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

33. I disagree. The problem with the dems is that they are NOT

speaking up so that the PUBLIC hears them. Because they fell for the "sour grapes" ploy - no one in the media nor the public really knew about the disenfranchisement. Just think where we would be if they had spoken up in every interview they had - a lot better off. And it would have raised public ire and put pressure on the Repugs.

You really think the republicans are going to play nice now because they didn't vote yes? Guess we will see, huh. I will pm you with praise when that happens!

[Goldeneye]

25. Thank you Machiavelli

you just said what I've been trying to say. Today was a great day. It is so far from where we started. Everyone needs to step back and look at this from a distance.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. You're assuming we will ever have another election

that is not rigged?

Wake up! It doesn't matter who you vote for anymore. Bush and the Repugs are going to have a free for all and do whatever they please. Heck in two years, Bush will probably change the constitution and you'll be protesting at his coronation. That's if you haven't been sent to 'camp' yet.

[Machiavelli05]

6. I didnt say that.. I said the Dems will win the battle

to reform elections to ENSURE this will never happen again.

Until they dont try it is not prudent to start a mass exodus.

[flyarm]

11. i guess if you haven't had...

your election stolen before ..you might not understand the doom and gloom many of us feel right now...being from fla and having had 3 elections stolen..this is going to take us a while to ..get over it again for the third time...its pretty tough to swallow again!!
please be patient..we know whats at stake and we know this is not easily resolved or gotten over!!
we were promised stuff over and over by these same people who voted against objection today..that this would not happen again ..and it just did..its pretty darn hard to swallow ...and its friegtening when you have experienced it first hand...many of us truely value our votes..when we see our elected officals lie to us over and over..that pill just sticks in your throat the third time! it may seem like a win to you today, but we know first hand its not a win for anyone.

fly

[Machiavelli05]

16. It was YOUR election? how selfish. It was OUR election

OUR ELECTIONS AS AMERICANS, ALL AMERICANS. Not Democrats


Thats something we all need to remember.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. That's all that's left

are the memories.

I grew up believing America was the greatest country in the world. But since the CIA killed Kennedy to now with a shadow government running most of the world, those illusions have been shattered.

The Democratic Party is dead, get use to it.

[flyarm]

32. yes you are correct...i take it personally cause...

my son tried to vote in 200o by absentee and he had his vote stolen...so it hits my soul and all those in my family..we all take this personally...but when it hits your home...like any crime..it hits a place you never knew you had!!
you are correct..but please dont take stuff so literally!...i was writing through very wet eyes!
we all come at this from different directions and feelings...i worked this election as an elected delegate..i ran for delegate for my angels...47 of my co-workers were murdered by this admin on 9/11...it was a very very hard day for me today ..as well as it was for many others who have fought this fight for their own reasons....today felt like another death to me..many others may be experiencing the same thing...please dont take things so literally...let everyone mourn in their own way..but let them express their feelings..its the only healthy thing to do before brushing their shoes off and starting their fight again...please be more understanding..aren't we all on the same side??

i sure hope so...fly

[saracat]

37. I am so sorry flyarm. I have very mixed emotions.

I resent being told that I am whining because I am saddened to see the bar set so low for our representaives. This is the United States of America and we are thrilled that only one Senator and thirty one Congresspeople stood up for a legitimate election? I AM proud of Boxer and Tubbs, but I shouldn't have to see them as an exception. Why do we expect so little? Why are we suppoded to feel grateful for that to which we are entitled?Why are we told that this is better than 2000 when we had no one so this is progress? One vote is progress? In the year2008? You are kidding right? I guess noone noticed Maxine Waters said she is going Independent. The baby steps they say we are taking were already taken in 1776.

[derby378]

4. Oh, I'll be voting Democratic again...

...but not for the same ol' crowd on the Hill. Not unless they voted to negate the Ohio electors.

[FreepFryer]

12. Hmm, how many times do you wanna post your Hillary-bash graphic?

DU is not for undermining Dems...

[derby378]

21. I'm just illustrating the need for basic, permanent change...

...in the way the DNC and DLC do things. But the graphic is probably for one day only. Just some rapid response.

[Der Blaue Engel]

7. I am officially taking you off of ignore :)

It's funny how I haven't changed my position a whit and yet the people I find myself agreeing with today are some of the people that I have been arguing with up until today.

I think more of us agree with one another than we realize, and I think this is a testament to how few it takes to divide.

I'm watching Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee in the House session THAT HAS NOT ENDED YET, and I'm still having a good day. :)

:hi:

[mattclearing]

9. Seconded. I don't use the ignore function, but I've had my doubts.

Thanks for a great post.

[FreepFryer]

10. Correct you are. We will not divide the Democratic Party in ill-conceived

recriminations.

[righteous1]

14. Well, if Dean runs again.....

[Machiavelli05]

17. Dean needs to be DNC chief. He has a powerful ability

to mobilize voters and verbalize concerns.

His place isnt in the white house his place is in reforming the party outlook.


He's not as liberal as everyone thinks either.

[Botany]

15. I feel like shit

I worked my ass off for Kerry and now I feel used.
Outside of Boxer and the CBC I saw no spine today.

Fuck 'em.

The demos are like beaten wives crawling back to their husbands knowing
that he "he really loves 'em."

How can you play nice with nazis?

[BattyDem]

20. I just don't understand what people expected to happen today

The Repugs are the majority ... throwing out the Ohio votes was never going to happen and if it did (by some miracle), the Repugs in the House would have voted for * anyway.

All the Dems who stood up today should be commended. They got the issue out there. They made the public aware of the mess in Ohio and in our election process. That's more than the MSM has done for the last 2 months!

If all the Dems stood up and said, "Bush stole the election" the headlines would have read,"Democrats Actively Seeking to Overturn Election" and the article that followed would have been about how the Dems are trying to overrule the will of the people because they're sore losers ... yada, yada, yada.

Instead, the Dems made very passionate and intelligent points about making sure everyone has the right to vote and have their voted counted. Each and every one of them made it very clear that they were not challenging the results - yet the Repugs kept ranting and raving about the Dems wanting to overturn the election! They didn't even address the issue of voter protection, nor did they acknowledge any kind of a problem ... how do you think that made them look to the general public?

John Conyers said (in an interview with Will Pitt), "This is not to change the outcome of the results. But I hasten to add that until we complete our investigation, I don't know if it will change the result or if it won't change the result."

This is the first step. I don't know what the end result will be, but we have to start somewhere. The Dems FINALLY took a stand today. That's a good thing. Time will tell if they have the guts to pursue the issue, but don't dump on the people who stood up today. That won't accomplish anything.

JMHO :-)

[Machiavelli05]

22. Exactly! Its not like Boxer would have done it completely

devoid of any support from the DNC power structure. She put herself out there as the sacrificial lamb (which is VERY commendable) so that the Dems can make this a REAL issue soon.

Be patient.. its a process.

[BattyDem]

26. That's so true ...

Boxer took a HUGE bullet for the team today. She's a great lady!

[cry baby]

27. I hope they won't leave, we need them.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. The Dems won't bring voter reform about by themselves

It's not going to come top-down, but from the grassroots level, and you can bet that people of many political stripes will be working at it.

------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Generic Other]

29. Are you so sure?

I live in Washington state. In 2002, Maria Cantwell defeated a standing GOP senator by 1000 votes. Our governor-elect just defeated her opponent by 128 votes. In this state Dems can't afford to lose a single one of us.

I have never missed an election in 30 years and I have always supported the Democratic Party.

I now feel the need to rethink my choices. Trying to fight the good fight has gotten me nowhere. Maybe it's time to bury the corpse of Democracy. Get out of the way, quit trying to hold up the crumbling foundations. Let the country fall into ruin.

My own party leadership doesn't care. Why should I?

[MoonRiver]

34. I'll never say never.

But I'm not supporting the DNC and/or any single Dem candidate in lock-step anymore. They have to EARN my money and votes now.

[Generic Other]

35. That's probably a good strategy

They really have failed us.

[enough already]

38. Who needs the "leftist wing" of the Democratic Party?

The DLC will take care of all of us. Look how well they've done lately. Let's all just get over it and go celebrate this great victory while we prepare for 4 more years of the chimp.

[Machiavelli05]

43. I forgot that Kerry was a member of the DLC...

oh wait he wasnt.

Election defeats are what happens when we nominate a liberal northeasterner.

Mondale
Dukakis.
Kerry.


Hell, I like Kerry - I was for him from the beginning. March '03

[zeemike]

39. It's take it or leave it time

The Democratic party just blew all of this off and gave us the finger.
So now we take it or leave it, they will do what they want and maybe if we give them more money they can make the 2008 election a little better. (but never fair or democratic)
I am sorry to say that Nader was right and I did wast my vote and a hell of a lot of time thinking that things would be deferent this time.
The question is whether we get fooled again in 2008.

[Califooyah Operative]

40. Serious.

all the 'im leaving' threads are just drama. Leave already if you don't want to take back OUR party.

[fshrink]

41. I will only vote if my vote counts. Period.

Rubber-stamping fraud as democracy is not gonna work with me. And since no one among the higher-ups seems to object, they can go to hell.

[KTM]

42. Not saying that

But I am horridly dispapointed in today's actions - only ONE Senator could stand and object ? That gives the Right all the ammo they need to right off this challenge as "a few Dems way out on a limb." My office only plays Fox, and I saw it all damn day. I listened to Major Garret over and over issuing outright LIES - there has been a TOTAL RECOUNT in Ohio, he said... no mention of the undervotes, no mention of the punchcards, no mention of the illegalities in the recount process addressed by Conyers. The media will make this disappear.

At least if ALL of them had stood up, we'd have shown it not to be just a few far-lefties, we'd have made a loud enough statement that it could not be ignored. The majority of the populace will never know all the details Conyers found out... the vast majority will hear it reported as "A few fringe Democrats trying to make things difficult for GWB." Most will NEVER KNOW the vast array of isues found in Ohio's vote.

If, when faced with a choice, the only palatable choice is the Dem, by all means I'll fall in line. But between now and 2006, I think we should NOT fund them, and actively campaign to have Dems re-register as Independents. At least put them on notice. At least let them know where WE stand. Fuck, for all I care, let them take another big hit in 2006. The current crop of Dems is a sad amalgamation of spineless, CYA-ing suck ups, and they need to know that if they dont stand up for us, we wont be there for them.

And Kerry ? FUCK OFF Mr. Kerry. Nice of you to make an appearance. Nice of you to "Fight for every vote." I have not one iota of respect for him - he didnt even BOTHER to make a cogent statment.. just a nebulous "Oh yeah, I plan to work on that in the future..." Get bent, JFK.

Take back "Our Party" ?!? Who are you kidding ? "Our Party" rolled over, AGAIN. When have they stood up and fought for US in the last 5 years ?