I'm granting Kerry one month.

[peacetalksforall]

As of this minute I am furious at Kerry because he gave Republicans shiploads of explosive ammunition to ridicule those of our leaders who were brave today and every single Dem leader who appears as a guest on screen, on camera, on the phone, or in print for many, many years or decades to come. All of us will have a most difficult time even at a restaurant, water cooler, or church social gathering.

His interviews, letters, statements (and to some extent his absence) was fodder. He gave them all a great gift. The attack and offense will be relentless and gloating.

The election theft was blatant. I don't know how he and some of the other leaders can avert their eyes and sleep at night and add to our misery with their words that imply that it is OK to steal.

Why one month? I will wait for a revelation that his rational and wisdom is too subtle for me to detect. I'll read as many words of Duers as I can in the meantime. Perhaps those on this forum and others can convince me that I am totally wrong and I can back off because of the post of a single person or a collective of comments that will help me see why he wrote it like he did. I will not accept any defense stating that he had no choice. He had a choice in his statements and his timing.

In the meantime I will get to work defending all the members of the Black Caucus and a few good Dems.

As of this minute, I do not approve of Kerry running in 2008 based the 'gift' I believe he gave the Republican Party. I can't understand why he wasted his time and energy as well as his wife's time and energy running for office and then write a disastrously worded concession statements.

[FreepFryer]

1. Can you define a path he could have taken with greater political gain?

Please do.

[fshrink]

9. Greater political gain?! None!

This will keep him where he is without losing capital. Excellent move. Of course, he could have stood up for the multitudes who got screwed in the process, but that could have resulted in less "political gain". Why would you want to risk that? You'd have to be an idealist, a "new to politics", a loser.

[FreepFryer]

12. Or, they'd have to be willing to fall on your sword to make a point.

Which I think is a waste of our leaders.

[fshrink]

16. Luckily for the like of us, sometimes,

there comes some dumb ass who takes the risk of doing just that. Next time you see someone lying down on the side of the road, do the smart thing: don't stop!

[FreepFryer]

21. If you're gonna fall on your sword, at least use it first.

[stirringstill]

25. Stop loss

Exactly. We Dems rely too much on the man at the top of the ticket. Republicans shield their leaders from everything. Look at Bush. Look at Reagan. Elements of the party should be like the secret service providing protection from political attacks from the right instead we do their job for them. Attack Kerry. Attack Dean. Attack X Attack Y Attack Clinton Attack Kerry. Why is it Clinton was blamed for everything that happened in the Clinton White House and Bush is blamed for nothing. Dems charge into battle with their leader in front. Republicans charge into battle with their leader in the rear. Where do generals usually sit?

[FreepFryer]

27. Excellent observation. I would create a new post on that if I were you!

[me b zola]

58. Excuse me??

"an idealist, anew to politics, a loser."????

I am not new to politics, nor to the civil rights movement. This IS WHY the CBC stood up with such elequence, grace, and passion.

I withheld negative statements on this forum about Kerry, hoping that that there would be a behind the scene type of leadership. Well, NO MORE.

Political capital? NO, I PROTEST---INDEED I PROTEST

I will never give Kerry the time of day again. HAve our backs? He can kiss my ass.

[peacetalksforall]

20. His message and his interviews needed to be to the point...but not

with any words thatwould close everyting down and NOhing that would let the Republicans say that Kerry said ithe election was all on the up and up. The most damaging was to say that all his (well publicized) monstrous legal team didn't find anything. He is just not saying what the brave leaders are saying. He is in contradiction to them.

It should have been a simple statement without elaboration that they could twist.

Everyone is saying that Kerry didn't want to repeat what Gore did by staying visible and active in the fight because of where it made Gore a big target. Well, staying out os sight was probably a good idea while a momentum of revelations built up. But, then to come in and say - OK Repubs - there's nothing there is grandly inferior to Gore.

Kerry didn't have the Supreme Court against him.

It could have been simple, short, and perfectly poke-proof, but not in contradiction to us and without an ounce of fodder.

[Amaryllis]

55. Did you see what Arnebeck said today? Kerry's statement

about his lawyers not finding anything doesn't help what Cliff is trying to do at all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=247010&mesg_id=247010

[Ms. Toad]

35. Yes I can.

He could have been present for the vote, if for no other reason than to counter (or stifle by his presence) the comments republicans made about his absence.

Think back to how you felt watching F-911 with Gore presiding over the attempted challenge - Gore's actions were a powerful witness to the process we have agreed to follow in this country. His presence, faithfulness to his duties, and composure were a powerful witness. Kerry could have made a similar (and less difficult) witness by merely being present.

Kerry could have announced that he was abstaining on the vote on the challenge for the purpose of avoiding even the perception of impropriety. The stark contrast against the recitation of Blackwell's fundraising letter moments (in which he claimed responsibility for delivering Ohio to Bush)and Blackwell's repeated assertions that he is an sufficiently impartial to preside over the recount.

Both of these actions would have positioned Kerry as someone committed to playing by the rules and committed to the election process, and in a much better position to lead the fight for election reform.

[FreepFryer]

36. Wrong. Either way, if Kerry voted, he'd hurt the cause. Period.

[Ms. Toad]

39. Reread the second half of the post

I suggested he be present, but abstain from voting. "Kerry could have announced that he was abstaining on the vote on the challenge for the purpose of avoiding even the perception of impropriety."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Kerry conceded way too fast

and never put up a fight. I won't vote for him again.

[babsbunny]

3. No!

Nobody will vote for Kerry now! He is awol!

[reprehensor]

4. Why bother with a month?

At least Gore tried.

[blm]

11. Gore had the popular vote. The public THINKS W's 3mil vote edge is legit.

If Kerry had the evidence needed he would have gone with it. Just as he did in IranContra and just as he did with BCCI, even when noone would back him up.

Kerry knows that stressing the votes being counted and NOT the overturning of the election is the best way to get an investigation and study on the machines and transparency in the electoral system.

Boxer, Conyers, and Tubbs-Jones all stressed that exact same point. Either you get it or you don't.

[EFerrari]

13. I guess I just don't then. And I'm one of the ones who came to

like Kerry, and who would vote for Teresa in a heartbeat.

There's something here that is equally about picking your fights AND about aiming low.

[reprehensor]

28. Please.

With all the fight of a weak baby Kerry gave it up on Nov.3rd.

With millions socked away to fight this crooked election, he did next to nothing.

He and many other Democratic Senators did not fight with what appears to be one of the last bastions of guts and honor, the Black Caucus.

Political damage be damned.

I worked my ass off to watch a career politician fold like a deck of cards when the going got tough.

And he had the nerve to ask me to help him with 'making sure our votes are counted' in an email today?

Physician, heal thyself.

If only Bernie Saunders were a Dem.

[blm]

57. What would have been the end result of YOUR way?

BushInc would have hurriedly gotten rid of the incriminating evidence and the media would have been on full antiKerry, antiDem onslaught 24/7, turning the issue into crybaby Dems instead of the importance of reforming the electoral system.

Let's hear YOUR version and tell me what media you would rely upon to make sure it came down the way you envision.

[genieroze]

5. The 8th and 9th Commandment means nothing to these faux Christians. eom

[politicasista]

6. What's the point of this thread?

I agree that Kerry conceded fast, but you should try being his advisor.

[LittleClarkie]

26. Most conceed faster

Only one in recent memory conceeded slower.

And waiting at that point would have gotten us nothing we don't have now.

The point of this thread is more tit-beating.

[EFerrari]

7. Have to agree. But serendipity, I know a hell of a lot more now

than I knew on 11/2, even though I knew that night that the thing was stolen. I've read every day, wrote, emailed,faxed, called, networked. It's been really real <g>.

I let go of Mr. Kerry, wish him well. And will continue to work on our vote. And on keeping track of the criminals in our White House.

[Straight Shooter]

8. I hope Kerry goes back to doing what he does best.

That being, working behind the scenes to expose corruption.

I do not want to see him run again in 2008. He gave us no strong leadership message regarding the disenfranchisement of the youth, the economically deprived, and people of color in Ohio, as well as Florida and who knows where else.

John Kerry is an idealistic, compassionate man. Despite his comment about "the most crooked, lying bunch," I don't believe he ever grasped what he was up against.

It's a real shame. Kerry would have severely hampered the terrorists by suffocating their money supply. Instead we have bush and his cronies who are like leeches, feeding off the blood of millions. With all the ammunition Kerry had, he could have gotten bush on the defensive.

Oh, well, it's all water under the bridge now. Who knows. Maybe we'll get an intelligent, charismatic, courageous, don't-take-no-shit-from-nobody candidate in 2008. Until then, we'll be counting our dead.

[EFerrari]

10. We'll have to work on several fronts, the war being one of them.

By the time Bush is impeached, we will all be in really good shape. The democratic Olympics :)

[glitch]

32. This is exactly how I am going to feel if it turns out Kerry didn't have

a handle on the machine fraud. Right now I am 50/50 because I didn't expect results on that issue today.

All I expected from today was the Senate Dems standing together with the CBC House. Got a half-a-loaf of that, proud of some disappointed in most. I will be happy if a genuine investigation results.

But today did not answer the Kerry enigma. I don't know if a month will either. I do know that when I do feel it is answered, if it turns out he and Edwards didn't have a plan to fight the machine fraud, I'll agree with every one of Straight Shooter's statements.

[n2mark]

14. He blew it

I'm searching for someone else. Boxer showed me today she is not afraid, although I think deep down she was.... It is tough to fight back when you know the otherside is going try to strip you naked.

[GreenArrow]

15. "Boxer showed me today she is not afraid,...

although I think deep down she was..."

Isn't that what true courage is?

[glitch]

29. Yes. nt

[peacetalksforall]

17. This post is about the fodder he gave the Republicans with his

statements, letters, and interviews.

He piled it on about the thousands of lawyers who found nothing. Nothing. Do you know what that means to the Republicans. They will eat on that for decades. Right wing historians will write an entire book around it. He gives the impression that there is nothing to our claims.

This post is not another Kerry bashing thread. This is about trying to understand why he FED THE REPUBLICANS WITH HIS WORDS AND STATEMENTS, especially his interview and letters to us.

Did you hear them (lecherous Repulicans) USE KERRY today. He did us in.

It is about his poorly, disastrously written write off of the theft.

It is about what is in his head for the Democratic Party to go forward. It is about contradicting Boxer, Conyers, and every other person who knows in their heart that we were robbed.

Again, this is not a thread about anyhting other than the manner he spoke and wrote that wipes away all our efforts.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. Yes, Kerry didn't even have to throw in that "my attorneys on

the ground line" Why did he do that? The only explanation I can think of is to cover his own ass. It threw cold water on the whole thing.

[Seabiscuit]

43. Even worse, Kerry's statement about his lawyers was a bold-faced lie.

He sent his lawyers home November 3. Who is he trying to fool????

[Pooka Fey]

19. I heard Repug thug J.D. Hayworth practically quote the entire Kerry

concession speech - to make his point that today's protest was a disgrace and a waste of time.

[NightOwwl]

22. Kerry lost me when he conceded without a whimper.

You are gracious to give him a month, and I hope he comes through for you.

[4democracy]

23. As the saying goes, I wouldn't vote for him for Dogcatcher

I did really believe in him and every thing he stood for, but I will not trust him again, no matter what he does now.

[LittleClarkie]

24. Reposting why he gave a gift to me today, not the Republicans

I was able to explain today, as I proudly told a gay, Republican, Bush-voting Barista that the Democrats were contesting the electors in Ohio, that this was not about Kerry, but about the vote.

Matt the barista's first words were "But they can't change the outcome. Bush would still have a majority." I was able to explain calmly that this was not about Kerry or overturning the election, but about recognizing that some things happened this year that were not right, and that have to be made right for the next election. Things like people going to vote where they've been voting for 20 years and being told they were not on the rolls. Things like a paper trail for an auditable vote.

I had him nodding his head and understanding by the end of it, because he too had problems registering where he lives, but instead had to go back to the polling place of a town that he hasn't lived in for 8 months. I said, "That's the sort of thing that needs fixing. It shouldn't be this difficult."

As long as it was about making the system better, he was all for it. If it had been about flipping the election, he would have rolled his eyes and gone back to making mocha.

With Kerry in town, it would have been about him. This way, it was about the vote. I am grateful for the gift he gave me by NOT being in town today.

[txindy]

31. Now that is an awesome post!

I'd say you should use that to start a new thread, but a whole flock of flying monkeys would start swarming around it immediately. I'd do it, anyway, if I were you, though. It's very true, every word you wrote about that gift is very true.

:toast: My favorite post of the day!

[KTM]

42. Yah... thanks LC

that made me feel better. I did some of that today, to a few coworkers who probably would have otherwise argued, had I not said "It's not about outing Bush." Same experience as you describe, basically. I guess if enough of us do that, with that attitude, it will have some positive.

But I still think Kerry has done a lousy job post-election... he can speak eloquently, and all he had to do was BE HERE, and make a three-minute speech about how he did NOT want to overturn the election, was NOT trying to do so, and wax on briefly about voting rights, democracy, sanctity, and something or another such as "It could happen to you - or you - or you. On races for local elections, or ballot initiatives, city and state contests - not just in the race for President, or for Congress... for anything that matters, to any of us. Not just Republicans, no just Democrats, but men, women, environmentalists, industrialists, Christians, Atheists... all of us. Any vote. Every vote. Every important thing you care about and are allowed by law and required by your sense of civic duty and your own moral values to vote on... dont you want to know... don't you need to know that it can be done fairly ? How could any of us be comfortable knowing that in any thing we vote on, the other side might be able to cheat, or win through a machine glitch ?"

All he had to do was stand.

[tsuki]

30. Kerry thinks that by being a good loser that he will get the 08 nomination

[xiamiam]

33. depressed and disgusted

I'm sorry but I cant find any victory in today...whats so victorious about a handful of people doing their jobs correctly..and representing the people...I wrote leters..pleaded and begged Kerry to take a stand...still held out hope while everyone told me to get off the computer and get on with my life...which really has nothing to do on a daily basis with any of this bullcrap...I kept hoping...I watched Conyers, Jackson, Arnebeck with deep respect...I kept calling and emailing...Boxer, my senator, stood up today...so courageous to be the only voice in the senate with balls...I love California and most of us here feel the way I do..I have such resentment and anger for those senators with their heads up their asses..and with such arrogance that they represent not one person I know...yet this is what we've got...and I am heartsick...I've never been political and still am not...just cant let go of a deep gnawing feeling that our country has been stolen...never to be returned...I'm sorry for venting but this is the only forum since most I know have already moved on...business as usual you know...and even my disappointment with them is illogical...so I think today was historical but I also think we've gained nothing..yet we're happy for a few crumbs of what?...a future of democracy...we'll see but I'm not holding my breath...

[perileo]

34. Granting Kerry one month?

One month for what?
Skerry = Skull and Bones.
'nuff said - he is part of the circus act, just like Boxer. They are playing their parts right by the script. Do you really think Boxer risked anything today? She was the chosen bone tossed our way. And for all the nicey nice words - how did Hillary, Teddy and the beaming Obama vote? Nay. Not one vote joined with Boxer. It was all for show.
The Congressional Black Caucus are the only ones who haven't quite accepted reality. But they have been made all but invisible, so all they do is lend a little credibility. Mike Ruppert is right - it is over.

[Seabiscuit]

38. I wouldn't grant Kerry another split second of my time or energy.

I sent an angry response to his recent BS wimp-ass hypocritical e-mail about Ohio and election reform. If I lived in Massachusetts I would vote to have him ousted from his Senate seat next time around.

[GetTheRightVote]

37. I will not even give this man 1 millisecond of my time, not worth it

Never will this man fool me again. We need to stop holding on to false dreams and get back to the reality we live in. The man dumped us even after telling us every vote would be counted so it is time to move on to a party and man who did stand up for us. That man's name is David Cobb. He has earned my respect and should have everyones regards for what he did on our behalf.

None and I mean none of this would have happened without him. You know how we show those at Capital Hill what listening to us and our needs means to us. We vote them, that means the next time around we should be voting for David Cobb or are we just like those ungrateful fools that work at the Capital ????

Kerry is history.

[Seabiscuit]

40. Who is David Cobb? Please tell us more.

The only national level Democrats who have my respect any more are Howard Dean, Barbara Boxer, and the 31 House members who voted "Yes" today in protesting the Ohio vote count.

As a lifelong Democrat who began voting in 1968, I am thoroughly disgusted with the majority of Democratic politicians today.

Perhaps what is needed is a new party. I have no faith at all any more in the Dem leadership. They have sold us out and allowed the Repukes to carry (Kerry?) our country to hell in a handbasket.

[hansolsen]

41. Kerry will never be anything more than a footnote in history. The

footnote will say, "He came, he saw, he dithered, he lost. Good riddance."

[LittleClarkie]

44. He is not Gore. Like it or not, he is the Senator from Massachusetts

and if he comes up with something support-worthy, I will support the action.

Too early. Gotta see what we have to work with in 2008 first.

I will not turn my back on any Dem at this point. We need them all.

[hansolsen]

45. Ya, well don't hold your breath waiting for Kerry to do anything inspiring

We need you more than we need him.

[LittleClarkie]

46. But then I'd be such a lovely shade of Dem blue

Eh, don't piss in my wheaties. I'm looking forward to being a bill co-sponsor.

[hansolsen]

48. Okay, just carry an oygen bottle; you'll survive. N/T

[malatesta1137]

47. Kerry is finished

he won't run in 2008, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, you know...

How anyone could consider voting for a sellout who failed to REPORT FOR DUTY when we most needed him is beyond me.

[LittleClarkie]

49. You don't know that for certain. The only thing you can say

for certain is that YOU won't be voting for him. Alrighty then. We will have to wait and see how much you represent the rank and file.

2008 is still a ways away.

[Pobeka]

50. Preaching to the choir is pointless for Kerry.

Political reality: If Kerry objected to the election without hard evidence of true vote fraud, the MEDIA, which we all know is completely controlled by the right wing, would paint him as a whining loser.

His message would then go absolutely nowhere. Sure, those of us in the choir would hear the message and see through the media spin. We are not the ones who need convincing. But we need to wake up to the fact that the media controls every single thing the rest of the sheeple hear.

What, then, would be the likely outcome if Kerry had stood up given the reality we have today? I think not only would the message about voter suppression be completely lost because the story of how the Senator from Massachusetts is a sore loser would dominate the news.

How in the world can we expect Kerry to overcome this obvious media problem over which he has no control?

I don't think Kerry had much of a choice, given the reality of his situation. The most we could hope for is that he was privately urging other members of congress to come forward.

Ask yourselves, what good would have come from Kerry speaking out, other than you feeling better? Is it worth feeling better knowing the country would be worse off? I think this is the crux of the issue. (And I think it truly affects all democrats, and suppressed their ability to speak out, which is the desired effect for the right-wing.)

I don't claim to have a crystal ball on what would or would not have happened had Kerry spoken out, but I think the scenario I painted is most likely. Given the last 4 years of CNN/FOX/ABC/NBC/CBS s's track record, does anyone really believe anything different?

[xiamiam]

53. to speak up or not to speak up

well...Boxer spoke up today...and she has our admiration...Kennedy, Clinton, Reid, Obama..voted no...and they get nothing from me...ever..how would it have hurt for them to go on record with the senate? did they truly believe that this issue didnt merit their vote......instead they let Boxer do this alone..Im disgusted...whats the difference?..there is no second chance...not this time...now or never...and while I held out hope until today that some strategic plan was in place..I believe NOW that Kerry had nothing to lose by standing firm and speaking up..its over because he didnt stand up for himself and for us..forget a transparent vote..the only thing that is transparent is that the politicians have their own agendas and it had nothing to do with us...as it is, no one has got our backs..and thats a scary thing...we had a chance and were willing to fight and even had a fighting chance...the damage has been done..i learned a lot over the past couple months and the most important thing i learned is that those who stand firm and dont back down regardless of what is popular...are winners...whatever the strategy in being so low key has failed ..dont hand me any crumbs about the future of democracy...how the hell can there be a future when the agenda is profit from war...

[Pobeka]

54. Kerry in particular was in the worst position to speak out.

That was the point of my post.

I do wish the other 43 senators could have stood up on principle and said we have to have a democracy where everyone who wants to vote will have no impediments and their votes will be counted fairly. The media would have a hard time saying that 43 senators are all lunatics, even if they were all dems.

If the shoe was on the other foot I think we would have seen all GOP senators stand up to object. But, of course, that's easy when you know the media has your back no matter how unprincipled you are...

[tsuki]

51. I watched the debates tonight. NO TIME FOR KERRY. I have

no time for Kerry.

I watched the members of congress get up and speak out only to be ridiculed by the opposition using Kerry and his attorneys as their voice.

No time for Kerry. He can forget '08. I will never vote for him.

[peacetalksforall]

56. Thanks for speaking to the issue, tsuki.

The key to the response -

saying that his lawyers found nothing:

People will remember two things and the right wing corporate media have had and will have a banquet. Even though he might have said or intended it to mean they found nothing that could reverse the vote, people will remember 'thousands of lawyers' and 'nothing'.

I will continue to believe the people here who say there is a strategy and I believe that enough good citizens are not going to let the thieves get away with the theft in the swing states.

But Kerry and his people gave the right wing a feeding frenzy.

I just wonder what Teresa and Elizabeth think of all this and how the upfront honest one and the extremely educated clear thinking one would have worded it.

[tsuki]

59. I know one thing. Edwards was not quoted.

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. Kerry sucked on Nov 3rd!

He never had our backs!

[MoonRiver]

60. You are much more generous than I. eom