I just can't understand why everyone is ok with settling for this...

[Stop Shrub]

He cheated, we know, he knows, half our representatives know, but yet we all are fine with accepting what we got today. My goal was never just reform, it was exposing what happened so it would never happen again and to get that bastard out of office. I feel like the Democrats really are a bunch of center of the road jackasses.

How is this acceptable? How is cheating ok? I know realistically this is all we could hope for, but damnit this is America and i don't hope for realistic i hope for truth and justice. The Dem's still don't get that the only way to win back seats in the house and senate is to have SOME FUCKING BALLS and take a stand for the things our party is supposed to stand for.

Explain to me why it is wrong for me to expect Mr. Kerry to lead the charge even if it is political suicide. Explain to me why it is wrong to expect every member of the house and senate to vote for an investigation democrat and republican alike. Most of all explain to me why you will all stand here and let Kerry's inaction be used against our cause and excuse him for it.

No more strategies, we aren't going to win fine, but I'm not going down without a fight and i expected that from Kerry, i gave him the benefit of the doubt until the very last second, but he is a traitor and he sure as hell didn't report for duty today

[quiet.american]

1. Nobody's exactly fine with this

Barbara Boxer has stated she has just begun to fight. This is the opening salvo. There are still pending lawsuits and John Conyers has indicated there will be ongoing investigations.

[Stop Shrub]

5. i mean accepting what we got today

im not gonna stop fighting, this just makes me realize im even more on my own then i previously thought. We should of had all dems stand together and fight this vote with every last ounce of their soul's!

[emulatorloo]

15. today is the first battle in a long war, and the REPUGS looked like

a group who is AFRAID OF FAIR ELECTIONS>

[flyarm]

43. how do you have a war...

when the judge , jury , and soldiers out number yours and they have the battle field , the floor of the court, and the jury is rigged??
how do you ever even get heard when your own soldiers side with the other side?? and give their ammunition over to the opponentwith no fight at all??

fly

[calimary]

51. Well, consider trying to think more like THIS guy:

It's a story from the New York Daily News called "Just Be Thankful He's on Our Side." From March 30, 2003.

Be thankful we are only facing Saddam Hussein and not the retired U.S. Marine general who played the dictator in last summer's $235 million war game.
As commander of the "red" or enemy team in the July exercises dubbed "Millennium Challenge," Gen. Paul Van Riper employed motorcycle messengers and coded calls from minarets to elude electronic eavesdropping and direct a surprise suicide attack. Swarms of pleasure boats and private planes crashed into the "blue," or friendly warships in a large-scale version of Al Qaeda's bombing of the destroyer Cole.
The result of this virtual attack was that a significant part of the U.S. fleet was sunk before the Mother of All War Games really began. The higher-ups could hardly just tell everybody to go home, so the 16 ships were "refloated."
The Mother of All War Games resumed, and the higher-ups sought to dissuade Van Riper from continuing to employ unorthodox tactics.


http://www.nydailynews.com/03-30-2003/news/wn_report/story/71277p-66210c.html

You keep trying to poke holes in the wall. You keep poking until you find a soft spot. The Death Star had one in "Star Wars," and it looked invincible for a long time. The Borg had one in "Star Trek" and they looked invincible for a long time. The Soviet Union had several, and it looked invincible for a long time. The Roman Empire, and Alexander the Great, and the British Empire, and the Spanish Empire, and the Babylonians, and the Egyptians, the Nazis, the Berlin Wall, Attila the Hun and Ghengis Khan - they ALL looked invincible for a long time. And for a long time they were. So did the dinosaurs, especially that big, frightening, intimidating T-Rex critter. But eventually, they ALL fell. Every last one of them. Even fuckin' Reagan didn't last forever (although for awhile there, I found myself referring to him as "the thing that would not die". Michael Moore recently reminded that - in 1972, Nixon had won a second term and looked mighty invincible, and Democrats and liberals were demoralized, and republi-CONS were on the march. And 22 months later, Nixon was GONE. Remember that photo from the Tienamen Square crisis - and that ONE GUY standing in front of that line of tanks. They ALL eventually fall.

The first hole that really started a big leak, and then a deluge - has finally been drilled through. All we have to do is keep drilling.

[Amaryllis]

54. Thanks. I need all the inspiration I can get right now. And then there

was the fellowship of the ring...

[librechik]

56. yes, and because of that man, China is no longer a totalitarian empire

He was an inspiration, did you know he was put in prison? IMO, our situation is more like the scene in Jaws--we need a bigger boat. I suggest we make our own Fox and quickly.

[quiet.american]

18. I understand what you mean --

But I didn't have that expectation. This is politics, after all! :)

Only one Senator was needed to sign and Barbara Boxer stepped up to the plate. As the saying goes, we've come a long way, baby. May not seem like much now, but it made me feel better!

[ohioliberal]

2. I am right there with you!!!!

[AlbizuX]

3. hey...OJ got away with murder so...

it's not like we can do much...we did what we could...we brought out the evidence, we got it in Congress, we hollred for media attention...that's all we can do.

If the mass media doesn't cover it, and the people don't care about it...that's out of our hands...that's up to the hands of history now...

We will reap what we sowed...so...let that process happen.

[Child_Of_Isis]

4. Somewhere along the line, this stolen election

became voter reform instead of fraud. :shrug:

[Stop Shrub]

7. thats my point child, i refuse to accept that n/t

[Child_Of_Isis]

27. I think another poster is working on a one click e-mail

to all 74 Senators, telling them to get the hell out of dodge if they can't do their job. But in much nicer words, of course. ;-)

[Karenca]

52. you've got it.....Just like finding the WMD's became

'creating a new free Iraq".

[k8conant]

6. I have NOT said I am fine, I WILL NOT say I am fine,

I will NEVER say I am fine until I am (whenever that is).

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

11. Have a nice short stay PV1

LOL :eyes:

[k8conant]

4 M&M votes is just candy...

3.5 million is big-time cheating and that's what we've been talking about all along. Where have you been? In 1st grade math?

[mod mom]

17. How can you live with yourself?

[Terre]

20. Back to Freeperville please?

Hope you enjoyed your stay.

[Goldeneye]

23. was it every really 4 million votes?

and if they could steal enough to flip the ohio election, they certainly had the power to steal the national election as well. Lets not forget they own the e voting machines, and tabulators. They control all branches of government, including the branch that should've put paper trails on our e voting machines. They stole the 2000 election through the supreme court and corrupt state officials.

They had the money to do it. They had a reason to do it (no other way for them to win). And they had the power and connections to do it. Add all this to the growing pile of evidence, and you will see that Bush didn't win this one anymore than he won 2000.

..dang they deleted before I got my response out.

[JunkYardDogg]

34. Only 2% of the Votes Needed to be switched

A 2% take-away from Kerry-given to Bush
Equals a 4% difference
THAT IS A LOT!!!

[Clark2008]

25. Dude, when you steal 4 million votes, it's not "winning."

It's fraud.

Enjoy your really short stay, you Freeping anti-vote-counting psychopath!

(Mods can kill this post, too, since I called out another poster. :) )

[darkworkz]

8. This isn't about settling.

This is a fight, plain and simple. This fight has been a long time in coming and most people just want things to go back to the way they used to be. That's not going to happen. In this fight the "vast majority" are going to eventually have to stand up and wrest control of U.S. government back, and start steering the ship of state. That's what this fight is all about. No more saying "someone will do it" because as the neocons saw first hand today someone else did it to them. And it was the "people".

[GetTheRightVote]

9. Stop Schrub, I will never be OK with this the death toll of Democracy

Today was the death of Democracy, not the birth of reform:

They have been trying that for years now and still do not have it right to the point that another election was stolen from us. I will never ever vote for a Democrat with an exception for Sen. Barbara Boxer and the Reps. in the house who stood up for us today. As a reward to David Cobb, I will be signing up for the Green Party. I am sick of the Repubs and their other party the Democrats. I never thought in my life I would think so little of them but I do now.

They do not represent us, they represent the other Republican party, you had better start calling them the baby elephants. What are we, are we battered wifes who are going to keep going back for more beatings from our Democratic Party husbands. I loved this party because I thought they were something that they are not, get over it people, they do not care about us anymore then the Republicans, FDR is died as far as these people are concerned.

The Democrats are pussy whipped by the Republicans, are their actions today not enough for you. I for one am not going back to be their whipping post anymore, I will leave that up to the rest of you who like to get beat up and ignored like the abused children of supposabily loving parents. I wish you luck in your destructive path holding to a dream that was given its death shot today.

:mad:

[pointsoflight]

12. I'm not done, personally. n/t

[NightOwwl]

13. Those who are not ok with this are being labeled DUDQs.

Democratic Underground Drama Queens. Well, pass me the crown because I sure as hell am not ok with what happened today.

[mod mom]

14. We must learn patience. We are too used to instant gratitude.

Look how long African Americans fought for civil rights. I have a heavy heart right now but I am not giving up!

[k8conant]

16. and wanting to get too used to fair elections...

how long, o Lord, how long?

[Stop Shrub]

22. no mom!

we are acting just like the Dem senators did today if we take that attitude. We can not accept anything less then justice and truth, I will not give up until that happens! I know that this is a process but the reason that changes happened in the past is because visionaries like Dr. King wouldn't accept anything but true justice. Damnit get mad with me, work harder to change this with me, don't accept that we have done all we can, more importantly don't accept that our "representatives" did all they can.

[mod mom]

30. I am mad! I had high expectations for today. I can't see why others

do not get it, though. I think we need to take some time to educate the public. Signs on buses, ads in papers. Air America is a big plus. We need a progressive tv station, as well. I really think campaigns like buy blue will have an effect on corporate reasoning. I am just trying to cope with the fact that there will be a * inauguation on Jan 20. Believe me, I am with you all.

[NightOwwl]

33. mod mom...

You make a good point...the public does need to become educated. But what does it say to the public when Kerry, the man who wanted to be President for crying out loud, and the rest of the Senators, will not take a stand in supporting the goal of a true Democratic society?

[ginnyinWI]

19. you answered your own question

"...Explain to me why it is wrong for me to expect Mr. Kerry to lead the charge even if it is political suicide."

How can John Kerry do anything for anybody if he is politically dead?
This is going to take every minute of the four years we have until the next time. So we all need to calm down and get a grip.

[Beth in VT]

21. I'm with you Stop Shrub -

we are evidently the lunatic fringe.

We need to keep hammering away. Today they at least acknowledged there is a problem and vowed to do something about it which is a start, and farther than we got in 2000.

Change is uncomfortable for people, they prefer stability even under imperfect circumstances.

[seabeyond]

24. so what do you want to do, to get the message out, to

convince all the people their voice does count and if they speak up they will be heard and that we have the right to demand a vote. what is your solution to all the millions of people that are living life not the least concerned with politics or their rights and dont have a clue. all the people that do watch the news feeling they are informed and dont have a clue.

a media that continually says it is a small handfu of conspiracy therorsits.

i tell you what i think our first step has got to be. informed all these senators that stood up and made great speeches about our right to vote, but that dont have a clue to how extensive this goes. the first to the senator in nevada that thinks his state was fine. go after our individual senators and our state senators. start and organized grass root effort where we have the voice of the people

for example in texas i want to get their asses. i want an orginization here in texas and go after the machines that took kerry votes and gave them to bush. only with investigation and proof of what happened in each state will the people and the media and the congress get a clue how huge this is. we need lawyers and subpeonas and threats of jail

[Stop Shrub]

29. exactly, our senators should have demaned that

and they should have all uniformly stated they will not settle for anything less...

[seabeyond]

31. it appears our senators dont friggin know

i guess they have to watch it on msm and it hasnt been on their. our senators are thinking we are nut cases like many of our fellow du'ers think we are nut cases like the bush voting people think and have been told we are nut cases.

i guess from what i saw the last couple days of extensive emailing faxing and phoning, we are going to have to do the work and get it to them and tell them not to be so haughty taughty thinking they know shit and listen to we the people

[carolinalady]

26. Until we figure out how to get inside those machines and prove

what they did we are f***ed. Kerry knows it as do the rest of the Dem movers and shakers. This house of cards needs to be brought down a card at a time. It would have been great if we could have proven the fraud beyond a shadow of a doubt in time for the certification, but it did not happen. Maybe with Arnebeck's lawsuit he will be able to subpoena those companies and their machines and we will get to the bottom of what they did. I don't hold a lot of hope for that, however. If that happens, we can impeach the bastard. If it doesn't we need to use all of our means to convince the people of this country that it is important that voting be unified and verifiable.
JMO.
:)

[Amaryllis]

55. Did you see this letter from Arnebeck to congress today? Mentions Kerry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=247010&mesg_id=247010

[FreepFryer]

28. He reported for duty, but you were looking in the wrong direction. Sorry!

[eric144]

32. Leader of the opposition ?

It's possible the USA may get something the Uk has which is a leader of the opposition in Mr Kerry. Perhaps, that's why he made sure he was abroad for the debate and not stigmatised as a sore loser.

Possible scenario.

When the Bush squad start killing people again in Iran, Syria, North Korea or wherever takes their fancy, the Democratic big names like Kerry, Clinton, Moore and Soros (moveon.org) could be well placed to lead the popular opposition in the country.

We could see Vietnam size anti-war demonstrations (particularly if there is some form of limited draft introduced. Also, today's opposition to the Ohio election may have put doubt in many people's minds as to the legitimacy of the Bush presidency. I believe there is a definite strategy at work here.

[FreepFryer]

35. Correct! You have identified a 'consolidate-power' frame. Taffy for you.

[NightOwwl]

41. And while they take their sweet time strategizing

hundreds more are killed every day? I don't think so.

[LibDemAlways]

36. I am not ok with this, either.

The Senate Dems today, with a few paying lip service to Boxer but ultimately siding with the repukes, signalled that they don't give a shit about honest elections.

Imagine if the repukes had "lost" in Ohio thanks to long lines in suburbia and rigged machines built and put into place by big money Dem contributors. Every last one of them would have signed on to the challenge and made their intentions known weeks in advance. They would have hammered the Dems mercilessly in the media and convinced the public that the election was, in fact, stolen.

What do we get? One brave Senator and a Congresswoman, who wouldn't even use the word "fraud," but were seeking a forum to discuss voting reform. A candidate who couldn't be bothered to show up. A bunch of spineless jellyfish masquerading as public servants once again bending over for their ritual repuke screwing. And we're supposed to be ok with this? Never.

[Bubblie]

37. I'm not settling!

I'm very disappointed with how things have gone. I was hoping for such a different outcome. I also realize that this was brought on over a long period of time. It's not going to be corrected overnight. If it's going to be fixed then WE all need to demand for it to be changed. We have the most to loose if it's not. Our Representatives in Congress are out numbered by the Republicans & they don't have nearly as much at stake. We need to demand our Country back. It was the people in the Ukraine that demanded something better and that is what we need to do. Taking our anger out on Kerry or anyone else will not fix the problem. Do something good with that anger and change the system. I believe it can be done because anything else is unacceptable to me. I have children that deserve to grow up in the America I believe in! That's is why I refuse to quite fighting...

[roseBudd]

38. This is not about Kerry, this is abouit GOP minority and low income voter

suppression and tabulation fraud.

With a can of 3M Super 77 spray adhesive and a trip to kinkos, you can be the media...

go to http://somnamblst.tripod.com to download high res files to print

[JunkYardDogg]

39. There are a lot of us like You

Stop Shrup-YOU ARE NOT ALONE
Many of us feel the same about Kerry, I've talked about this at CGCS and here
At DU when you criticize Kerry, many find this to be unacceptable. It is Not.
Many of us are righteously Pissed off.
We can fight this.
We need to, we must, organize on a local level.
There are tools available for us to do this.
DU and Move-On have the largest data banks of contact info which we can utilize.
How many people are there in each of our communities who share the same politics and goals.
I don't know. None of us know.
If we did, we could organize on the local level and grow. And grow fast.
We did this in the '60's without the internet, but we had the
super luxury of organizing at the local University/campus level-that is why we were so successful
I know-I did it
We can do it again

[dogindia]

45. agreed.

with Stop and Junk and many on this thread.

I did alittle too much ranting earlier in the evening. CRIME IS CRIME and such.

I have asked before why not only the democratic politicians but many of the left leaning critics, colomnists, commentators will not touch the subject of hacking and fraud. Why are they so timid about it? Many threads have tried to speak about this in the last two months.

Is this a question that needs to be addressed in order to help to get this CRIME outted?

[slay]

40. I'm super fuckin pissed. The white collar criminals won again, as usual

They have so many people living in terror over street crime that white collar criminals run wild. The very people we let rule us ARE the terrorists. They stole it, we know it. Our representatives have abandoned us. :(

[RocoDeCho]

59. Top 4 crimes in the U.S. 2004

#1 A destructive confederate dictator for President, Dubya Bush
#2 A storm trooper for Bush, Ohio Secretary of State, Kathy Blackwell
#3 A CIA controlled,Right Wing dominated Free PRESS
#4 A ONE PARTY CORRUPT GOVERNMENTAL System= Republican Dominance.. US House,Senate,Presidecy,Supreme Court

Tells me this....Jan.20,2004-2008

[Pacifist Patriot]

42. It's not about being fine it's about being realistic.

We are the minority party so we're extremely limited in what we can do. I'm still pissed off at the activities surrounding the election and I know that Bush is not our legitimate president even if he is the "lawful" one. To save some retyping, the first have of this thread explains what I think happened today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=257730&mesg_id=257730

Cheating is never okay and cheating in an election is reprehensible. But in order to dig you want to make sure your opposition is in a weakened position. Or at least not alerted to stonewall. This put the GOP on alert and positioned the Dems as the party for voters' rights.

I agree with you that every single member of Congress should be incensed at what happened November 2, 2004 and screaming to make things right. Political reality is that November 2 put the Republicans in a very comfortable spot and they aren't going to give it up easily. We have to take it from them. This is a great way to upset and alienate their base.

[NightOwwl]

44. Can't blame the Republicans

for the cowardice of Kerry and the other Senators. They had a choice...and they blew it.

[dogindia]

46. there is something really screwy about this

The dems are really cowed. Horribly afraid of something. Caged. Gagged. Some some combination of oppressive outrageous opponents. the relentless lying and crasinesses like torture right in the open....even the enron stuff not really being punished. Clean air, healthy forests.crap...their control of everything....their willingness to cheat outrageously.
Abusive hack commentators. Swift boat guys lying. somehow everyone of the dems are scared to speak out.

[KatieB]

48. DEMS no longer have any power - those speaking out are very bold

You saw how horrible the REPUGS were. So arrogant as to call these public disclosures (of 10 hour waits in line) "FRIVOLOUS"

[KatieB]

47. We're disgusted - corporate America won again

I realized that so many politicians are afraid of something so obvious because something with alot of power can squish them. We should be sending Tubbs and Boxer $ to protect them in their next election.

[SammyWinstonJack]

49. It's all crap!

and we are all tools! or if Will Pitt is here, we are whining assholes! I am done! Who the hell cares anymore? I don't!

[Child_Of_Isis]

50. Come to this thread and help us with a one click

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x258818

[Carolab]

53. Okay I was feeling really harsh earlier and made some mean posts

But I have had some time to think about it.

Boxer said it best, that they only needed one senator to force the debate. For them to focus on voters rights and not on who won or lost was a good strategy. It was obvious that the Republicans were prepared to argue "Bush won, get over it", in preparation for attacks on the validity of the election. When they did this, and didn't stay on topic of "voter rights", they lost the debate.

I also feel that many of our representatives went into this thing today with very little in the way of background. They got Conyers' letter late yesterday and they didn't have a lot of time with the people who got appointments with them to sit and absorb the vast amount of information that is there on this entire issue.

Our job is to keep on educating them and to continue giving them the support of the grassroots, to let them know that our numbers are large and we represent the true majority of this country. I think we gave them a lot of strength and courage today.

Did you hear Kennedy give credit to the "citizens"?

Also, did you catch that woman in the balcony shout at Voivonich (sp?) of Ohio? When he said that * won, she shouted "HE DID NOT!" I felt that was deserved comeuppance for the rude and obnoxious way the members of the House treated our reps, by standing at the back and carrying on personal conversations instead of listening. Again, exposed them as pretty f'ing rude and uncaring.

Also, I have to say I understand what Dayton did. He explained himself, rather than avoiding the issue altogether. He was worried about the precedent it might set, and that it might backfire. Plus I have to give him major props for the speech he gave earlier in the day about how the administration has been lying about the facts on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[genius]

57. I agree. I'm really angry at our leaders. We've been screwed.

[DearAbby]

58. Who is? This is just a battle Victory was ours

We got it on record. SOS Kenneth Blackwell has a target on him. He has been singled out. We should not rest until there is a full investigation, covictions on the fraud (illegal activities) And we must also get rid of those damned machines. I will never vote anything but an absentee ballot that has been scanned before mailing, until those machines are gone.

Companies with speacial interests, in one party should not be counting the vote. PERIOD. We have work to do. Then it's 2006 House cleaning time.