Why I think DU is getting a bad rap

[HeyManThatsCool]

Democratic Underground is a frustrating place to be.

Not because the moderators are bad- they aren't.

Not because the idea of D.U. is bad- it isn't.

It is because of the loco tin foil hat wearing posters who genuinely enjoy being as rude and obnoxious to people they consider "stupid" or "traitorous" or not "pure" dem enough to be part of their sect.

Think about this. Because it's a serious question. Not flame bait- but a real, honest attempt at trying to point out what is going wrong.

Let me paint a picture for you:

When John McCain decided to support GWB most (if not all) of us were appalled! What was wrong with that turn coat? Why was he caving in?
That was the question we all asked. He had been burned by Bush and badly. Yet there he was, out there touting Bush's platform & accomplishments. (Ok... go ahead-laugh at the words Bush & accomplishment being in the same sentence) Many people felt that McCain supported Bush because he was toeing the "party line".

I feel that by continuing to support Kerry, and not discuss the flaws within the 2004 campaign & Kerry's part in that- we are no better than McCain. Blatantly ignoring what happened isn't going to help us in 2006 or 2008.

But the worst, the saddest thing happening here has to be all the people who think that Kerry's actions are part of a bigger plan, a chess game so to speak. If I hear one more person say Kerry is a great closer, I'll scream. First of all you only SAY that because that is what Kerry's people said about him over and over and over during the election. Guess what? In a way they were right. He was a great closer- a great DOOR closer. He and he alone slammed the door shut on the 2004 election.

Kerry isn't coming back to "win" this election. He isn't going to "take the Bush regime down". He is going to strap himself in to try and get his name in the paper as much as humanly possible between now and 2007 when he runs again. He isn't looking out for US- he's looking out for him.

Many here feel that way. Many don't. But there is never any way to have a real discourse when people yell and scream & call you negative or a freeper for not getting in line with their beliefs. It isn't an insult to the Dem party to question it. It would be insulting not to.

People on the D.U. board who bully & belittle people that way are no better than the Republicans who are- even as I type- belittling Barbra Boxer. (That moron Joe Scarbrough is on SLAMMING her and Conyers... And stupid Howard Fineman is agreeing with him that it's a joke. Scarbrough just called us "internet theorists" who are "nutbars")

D.U will continue to get a bad rap as long as people like Joe Scarbrough get to have their staff surf the web and show them some of the outlandish and ridiculous posts from this site.

As for the election of 2004 I am personally done. Moving forward to voting reform.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
George Wilhelm Hegel:

What experience and history teach is this -- that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles.

[mirandapriestly]

1. I think it's because

a lot of people are hitting at the truth and the powers that be don't like it

[Ian David]

3. Yes, we are hitting on the truth and they don't like it, BUT...

There are a few of us who are willing to believe that ANYTHING is the truth, and they are making us easy targets. They have become our straw men.

[Webster Green]

2. Screw Scarborough...

Who gives a fuck what he thinks or says?

Your comparison of Rove's trashing McCain's family, and Kerry's concession doesn't make much sense either.

[HeyManThatsCool]

7. Webster

I am sorry if you didn't understand the parallel I was trying to draw about the price of party unity. It damages personal credibility

[Webster Green]

13. I agree with you on that....

but its OK for us to passionately disagree on issues. Thats the difference between us and the repukes, who must tow the party line and never deviate from the RW talking points.

I hope nobody here is tailoring their posts so the folks at MSNBC will be pleased with them.

[HeyManThatsCool]

9. Also

I wouldnt screw Scarbrough for a million dollars! lol


I was watching his "real deal" just to see what he would say.
It wasnt very real

[Webster Green]

17. No shit!

Poor choice of words on my part!

[HeyManThatsCool]

4. And

On an aside I think the DEM party is about to get a bad rap for keeping Terry McCauliffe.

It stings like a fissure in my ass that he may stay another year or two! ENOUGH

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Here are some voting reforms you can get started on

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Obviousman]

6. This is a framing issue

But Freepers have "Free Republic" and we are Democratic "Underground" Now, I know the situation in which the site was made, and I am OK with the name. But keep in mind that Average Joe might feel more comfortable posting on "Free Republic" than "Democratic Underground". Tell me if you think I'm wrong, it's just an idea I had the other day and I want to hear about what people think about it.

[lib_1138]

22. That is sort of an odd way to look at it

I think we are grasping at straws to make ourselves feel a little better.

[Ian David]

35. The Repugs and Reich-wingers assume the fake status of the persecuted

Perhaps by being "underground" we, in at least a small way, are taking that mantle from them?

[Locrian]

36. you hit it out of the park...

I agree - its a LOT about how the "name" sounds. "Underground" sounding "subversive" or "anti", while "Free Republic" (who doesnt want FREE or REPUBLIC?

Sucks that there is this reverse PC going on where you are forced to consider the framing more than the content.

[seabeyond]

8. then my suggestion is not come into election 2004

for discussion calling anyone who feels there was election fraud as conspiracy therorists, ergo in my mind stupid, and tin foil hat

there have been a number of post just like yours attack people like me who believe there is election fraud. and in your posts you call me names and then tell me i should not believe what i believe and i am part of the problem. now dude,.............i am sitting here minding my own business in a room called discuss election 2004 and you coming in telling me not to discuss election 2004

do you see where what you are saying doesnt jive

have i told you how you are suppose to think, what you are suppose to believe. not. have i called you names, basically stupid, no

i have asked you to allow me the right to believe what i chose and work on what i want and i am in the appropriate room to do just that

[HeyManThatsCool]

11. seabeyond

(1) I come into Election 2004 because thats what I was interested in.

(2) I also think there was MAJOR election fraud.

what I'm saying about Kerry is that HE did nothing about it- therefore we are now screwed.


FOUR. MORE. YEARS.:scared:


And I didn't call you any names, or say that you were dumb.

[seabeyond]

14. well then it seems to me what you are pissed about

is the people that still want to believe in kerry

isnt that there right, bottom line. because you are pissed at him, do you really need to make sure every damn person feels the same as you, cause it isnt going to happen, you dont get to make people believe one way or another. isnt it enough for you to let him go

look i dont know what kerry is up to. i really dont hang my hat on what could have been or what is going to be. i kinda sit in the now of it. i dont know that kerry had a chance to do much of anything. i dont know what would have been the right thing for kerry to do these last two months. this country has never been here before. gosh look at the forces against kerry

i think you are asking for something that couldnt be personally, but hey, whatever. i respect you feeling that way. i go back and forth on this. a disappointment yes.............but he is merely one man. and the media alone, what they did to him, not to mention fellow dems......lordy

i dont know. i do know i have no business going around telling people to follow my lead with kerry

[HeyManThatsCool]

19. dude. what?

Im not saying "follow my lead" with Kerry.
LoL. I'm not the pied piper.
What I'm saying is......... try to understand why other people aren't- what their reasons are (meaning we aren't traitors)& stop calling them freepers. thats it

[seabeyond]

23. well, i too get tired of the people coming on bashing kerry

and i am not an "i believe" person, i am just not a bashing type person. and there is a lot here. i think kerry worked hard in his campaigning

didnt know that was your jest of you post, to not get bothered when you all want to come on this board and call our dude a traitorous scumbag of the earth. tis hard to hear. but i will be sure to respect your right to go at em. dont think it helps our cause at all, thinks it hurts it, ...........

[HeyManThatsCool]

26. I dont think...

that he is a "traitorous scumbag of the earth"-
I just think he was a dumb ass for giving up too soon.
He folded like a 2 dollar tent at the first sign of a breeze.
(IMHO)

I'm pissed and frustrated as hell with him about that. I worked my ass off for that campaign because I really believed that he would stand up.

He's not a candidate I'll support again but he isnt a traitorous douche.

[seabeyond]

30. hey heymanthatscoooool

i am with you on that. i would really like to have a heart to heart with the dude to actually know what is up with him. simply so i could understand. that is what was my hardest with him the last couple months. he knew we were putting time and effort in this election fraud, and if he truly believed there was not a problem i would think he would have had the courtesy to say, hey you all thanks, get back to your family. thanks for all the work, but there isnt anything.

shucks we wouldnt have beleived him. i knew the night of election there was fraud. i guess that is it, if it is so clear to us, surely it is that clear to him, adn if it is clear, surely he would want to do something about it.,

i dont know. but i do better understand where you are coming. thanks for the chat.....cool

[Verve]

10. I don't think you get it! This is not about Kerry or Bush. This is about

DEMOCRACY!

There were serious irregularities in Ohio, Florida and other states that point towards intentional fraud. It doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat, everyone should be concerned. Without fair and transparent elections we do not live in a Democracy!

Any Democrat or Republican official that is not concerned is either in the dark about the facts of 11/2, ignorant or has something to hide. Protecting our vote does not have a party line.

[HeyManThatsCool]

12. Verve

What you just said is EXACTLY HOW I FEEL! IT IS ABOUT DEMOCRACY!

My beef is with Kerry. I'm not saying the election wasn't totally f'ed. It was!!

What I'm saying is that the bad rap comes from people who continue to say that Kerry is going to ride in and save the day ANY SECOND NOW!

[seabeyond]

15. dont read those posts., what do you care

i dont read them. they dont bug me

[Verve]

20. Maybe so. However, everyone handles adversity differently.

Unfortunately, many people are still in shock even 2 months after the election. I think everyone's shock has become exacerbated by the uncovering of numerous counts of election fraud. Not only did we lose but we were f---ed in the process.

It's hard to heal an old wound when you keep picking at the scab.

Hopefully, we can all start to settle down now. However, before we start campaigning for 2006 or 2008 we first need to continue to focus on election reform.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. I suggest you stop watching Joe Scarborough. He doesn't care

about democracy, only about keeeping the GOP in power. Watching Ann Coulter is even worse; she exists solely as a storage and distribution facility for venom.

[seabeyond]

25. scarsbough tonight indepth discussion on why some think it was

gods wrath the tsumanami. saw it on an advert for show. thinking and are they going to get in depth gods wrath in florida suggesting going after jeb bush for theft and corruption of state, or hey that is scarsborough state, the office he had a dead intern in, could that be the cause of wrath, repug corruption or feeney making a soft ware program to steal vote

[HeyManThatsCool]

27. I saw that

commercial earlier and almost hit the roof.

Anything to scare the shit out of Joe Average American who didn't vote for Bush, right?

[Al-CIAda]

18. Oh, make no mistake, I think Kerry was a piss poor candidate

its almost like he wanted to lose...but their was also election fraud.

[HeyManThatsCool]

21. About that....

I don't think he wanted to lose.
I think he really wanted to win- and thought that he would.
But I think when he heard the TV reporters say he lost he folded to fast because he wanted to preserve his Rep for 2008. I think he thought Gore didn't get to come back (so to speak) because he didn't concede to Bush for quite a while

[HeyManThatsCool]

24. I guess we should all know that

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
-Voltaire.



Seems like none of the Senators besides Boxer standing up indicates that the government is wrong

[Verve]

28. Only one senator was needed! Anymore would have been redundant.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=256350&mesg_id=256350

[HeyManThatsCool]

31. 1 was needed but.......

hey, if they wanted to show unity.....


And how about the fact that they let her stand alone?
I think its bullshit.

If it ruins her career I will be PISSED.

[Webster Green]

33. Don't worry about her career....

She is the most revered goddess in California.

We've got her back, dude!

[HeyManThatsCool]

34. i really really

hope so. she deserves to be put on a pedastal for being
such a kick ass Senator

[HeyManThatsCool]

32. Redundant.....

maybe.


Appropriate....
yes


I think leaving her to carry the torch solo was crap

[Al-CIAda]

29. I think he can forget about that

Now way...he's toast.

I believe this statement did the job of undermining his support for him-

Reporter; "Would you still vote to give the president go to war in Iraq even knowing what you know now?" (no WMD's, no 9/11 connection, etc)

Kerry; "yes"

Mission accomplished..