Help, DU Oldtimers and friends, I am looking for input here

[texpatriot2004]

What do the actions today mean? What are some likely scenarios? What happens next? I mean, do the efforts today mean only "election reform" is that it? This historic action is so complex. I am baffled.

I know it's a good day. I know history was made. I am thankful for Congressman Conyers and Sen. Boxer (as well as Congresswomen Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Sheila Jackson Lee, and all the others who stood up for this issue.) I am very grateful for their action and their courage but what does it mean?

My only hope is that Kerry has some kind of strategy and I believe that he does. I can't wrap my mind around this deal. If all it means is election reform, that's not enough for me. Yes, I think we need election reform. Hell, I worked for it and waited for my government to do the right thing on this issue from 2000 until 2004...THEY DIDN'T! We could wait for election reform until the cows come home and it won't make one damn bit of difference.

I know there are other people here who are shaken after today. I can understand it really. It's been two long months waiting for today, Jan. 6th, 2005. It has been a very dark time for our nation. I don't mean to be all doom and gloom. I really don't know what to expect now. The thing is, if all this means only "election reform" that's not enough for me. Anybody have any theories, any wise words, any ideas to share on the possibilities of what happens next?

[RevCheesehead]

1. I see at least two things

Election Reform. It simply has to be done better than it is now. Who was the senator (female) who spoke about elections in India? Was it Clinton? or someone else?

Election2004 Investigation. All these trails lead somewhere. Eventually, someone will recount Ohio in its entirety. Someone will discover the source code in the machines. Someone else will come forward and tell.

I told my mom yesterday about the Conyers report...and I said, "let's just say that in a few months, everyone will hear Kenneth Blackwell's name mentioned like Oliver North was, or Halderman and Erlichman...

Investigations take time and effort. And we here at DU are determined to NEVER, EVER GIVE UP!

Eventually, the truth will be made known. I'm still waiting for the full story on Iran-Contra (which probably won't be made known until after Poppy kicks the bucket).

So take a few days and grieve, if you need to. It was a tough election, and we are hurting inside. But come back here and keep on working for reform and investigation, and perhaps a prosecution or two, or an impeachment.

[texpatriot2004]

25. You're right Rev, investigations take time...I am still waiting for

Iran Contra revealed also. I thank you very much for your kind words here; they mean alot to me, as usual.

[oldtime dfl_er]

2. Kerry doesn't have a strategy

It is now up to us, the citizens, to force reform. Today's action was probably more than lip service by our Congresspeople, but it signalled also a willingness to continue to "work within the system", a system that works for your Senator and mine but not for my mother, on Social Security, or my brother, who is gay, or myself who is a working poor person. Today's actions proved to me that it is only when the people, in massive numbers, take action, that anything will ever be accomplished.

Wear orange on January 20. Try to take the day off work and be among the millions who will be demonstrating against this regime. Embrace the "Not one damn dime" movement (spend no money on Jan 20), continue to write, phone, email, and vote.

[RaulVB]

3. The Democratic Party will be reduced to a symbolic institution

You'll have only a "token" opposition and the regime will perpetuate itself.

[hinachan]

4. What happens next, you ask?

<<What do the actions today mean? What are some likely scenarios? What happens next?>>

Bush becomes dictator, and the Dems give him the straight-arm salute.

<<I know it's a good day. I know history was made.>>

History was made, all right...the Democratic Party let democracy die. You view this as good WHY?

<<My only hope is that Kerry has some kind of strategy and I believe that he does.>>

His "strategy" consists of enjoying the Bush tax cuts, and authoring some legislation that doesn't stand a chance in hell of passing, so that he looks as if he's doing something constructive.

<<The thing is, if all this means only "election reform" that's not enough for me. Anybody have any theories, any wise words, any ideas to share on the possibilities of what happens next?>>

See the first line of my post. :(

[democracyindanger]

9. ZZZZZZzzzzzz...

Is there some sort of armageddon cult at DU? Jeepers.

[RaulVB]

11. Oh, I get it...

The "rethugs" are going to play nice now and will give the Dems' some bones to lick...

Everything will be just "fine."

[democracyindanger]

13. Nah, I don't think you do.

Today was the first step. There are those who understand the size of the fight, and those who want to quit because they don't want the long hard work ahead.

[RaulVB]

15. Nobody around here is quiting...

But YOU don't have a clue about the "people" you're fighting against...

[democracyindanger]

22. Try reading a few threads tonight

You know, the ones with posts like "I'm leaving the Democratic Party" and "What party should I join now?" and "the Democratic Party died tonight."

[Mistwell]

5. It's election reform

The best case scenario from this is election reform. There is NO possible scenario (beyond, say, every single person in the line of secession dying ahead of Kerry - in which case we have a much bigger problem on our hands than election reform) that will see Kerry as President of the US for any period of time earlier than 2008 (and likely not even then). The electoral votes were certified. The Constitution REQUIRES that Bush be sworn in to office. Only a Constitutional Amendment could change that fact, and it is impossible for such an Amendment to be passed prior to the date that Bush will be sworn in to office.

So, the simple answer is, it's hopefully the start of election reform. Some think that is a lot, others do not. I'm in the later camp at the moment, but I don't begrudge those who are in the earlier camp.

[KatieB]

6. DEMS right now have no federal level power-we need to help them

The same way we took it to this point. Insist, push, inform, heck REPUGS even backed down on their stance on crookmeister Delay.

[darkworkz]

7. Analysis of the days event. Take from it what you will.

The neocon "leaders" got "faced" and "faced" themselves for the nation and world to see. They came off as small, petty, whinny, paranoid, lying, cowards. And the exposure to real light was a terrifying thing. It was TOTALLY clear as you watched them.

Karl proved himself to be lacking in talent because his pre written canned speeches were on the wrong topic. He had nothing to counter the democrats with. The neocons knew they were spouting the wrong lines for the show and because none of them can think on their feet, they got mad. But the viewer couldn't tell what they were angry about but just knew it. Their anger was due to the fact that they were completely unprepared and their standard "tricks" didn't work in the situation. It was very interesting to watch.

He (Karl) tried a last ditch effort to toss Tom Delay up with a speech that sounded like he'd written on the fly. The funny thing was (and I listened to EVERY word Delay spoke) the speech writer knew he was talking against himself and was trying to spin his own actions into an attack on the Dems. But the info, speech reader, and topic didn't mix so the end result was the sight of a liar, about to be indicted, possible felon, trying to pretend passion and telling on himself the entire time. Very interesting combination that was captivating to say the least.

The Delay speech for me was the answer to the puzzle of the neocons and what they took from the day. They didn't cheer when it was announced that Bush had the electoral vote. It was a very quite anti-climactic scene, many are saying the same thing. And the cons walked out of the room as soon as it was over. The answer for me, to get back on point, was that the neocons showed genuine FEAR. Today's action has them in terror right now. This is why their foot soldiers haven't attempted a "chest beating" session. And I don't think they will in the near future.

[icehenge]

23. Nicely said

The speech's from the Repubs were the same old lines over
and over. They just didn't understand the reasoning of the
Dems. Listening to Delays speech reminded me of a visit
at the dentist getting a root canals. How can the guy
sleep at night, he's so phoney.

[RevCheesehead]

27. Oh, no, I disagree.

I had TWO root-canals done this year, and I can verify that they were far more pleasant experiences than listening to DeLay.

I kept looking for the "metafer" :
Listening to DeLay lecture the house on ethics is a lot like...

(I think I'll go start a new thread!)

[Orangepeel]

8. well, frankly you were expecting too much

if we get election reform out of the challenge, that will be a tremendous accomplishment.

republicans have control over both the house and the senate. That means that they control the agenda, they control the committees, so they control what comes up for a vote, and they have the majority of votes. The Democrats can't investigate anything and can't push through legislation.

Maybe (MAYBE) we can stop some of the worst judicial nominees. And, hopefully, they can get some election reforms passed.

I know that I sound even more doom and gloomy than you, and I'm sorry about that. But, the truth is nothing comes next, except we start trying to get some control back.

My advice is to concentrate locally on getting decent Democrats elected. If you control the local infrastructure, you can help Dems at higher levels later.

[bush_is_wacko]

10. Election reform is one thing that could come out of this

the other thing that WILL come of this if we don't give up is transparency of what the Rethuglicans are doing to our Democracy, if and only IF we continue to work together and I don't just mean DU, I mean all of these "little" groups. We need to continue to watch what our government is doing and make sure that every time they try to pass a less than honest bill or attempt to get their hands on our social security, or try to reinstate the draft, we catch them doing it, and call them on it. You understand that "We the People" just caused the Rethuglicans to focus on an issue they wanted to bury. We can do this again.

[shraby]

14. I've noticed that whenever they pugs are

called on some action they've done and were pushed at about it, they back off.

Condi Rice DID testify under oath at the 9/11 hearings (wasn't going to)
Bush and Cheney DID testify (weren't going to)
Bush DID have the 9/11 hearings (didn't want to)

There are more examples, but offhand I can't think of them. But the fact is, they DO back up when pushed.

[kk897]

21. another example: Blackwell caved on the paper weight issue

At first he said that no one using the improper weight of paper could be registered. Then there was a big uproar, and he rescinded his own order. I found that a little odd, but I figured that there must have been an even bigger uproar than it appeared, because he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to back down without a LOT of pushing from people on his side or without some sort of leverage being applied.

My working theory at the moment is that a heck of a lot more is going on behind the scenes than we'll ever know unless we become the players.

Run for office, that's the next step. Get a platform for your message, even if you have no hope for winning. And if you do win, give us the inside scoop!

[bush_is_wacko]

29. Running for office?

I have no intention of running for office, but I am thinking about some type of information venture. One that would put this type of information in the hands of American citizens so that they can make informed decisions about those they do elect. I am only at the wishful thinking stage at this point. I have a workable idea, but need to look at the legal, business, financial, and even ethical aspects of that idea. I want to bring some of this information to a place where people can go to find it and then they can get together with others who want to work on getting these issues addressed.

[bush_is_wacko]

28. Yes, they do.

It is time that American citizens realize they have the power to make the change that is so desperately needed in our government. We need to stop beating up American's that are ill-informed and find a way to get them informed. Not all of them have access to the Internet and I think we need to combine our efforts in a way that provides the information to the public in a meaningful way without making fun of those that have not previously educated themselves on the issues. We need to disclose the voting records and committee records and bills and laws that our government officials are working on. ALL of our government officials. While I agree that EVERYONE deserves the right to vote, I also think EVERYONE should have access to enough information to make those votes INFORMED. Our current grassroots efforts are spread to thin. We accomplished getting a Senator to stand by combining our efforts with other grassroots efforts. That needs to be a permanent combination and we need to recruit more Americans to the effort.

[seito]

12. Justice is going to take time Tex

Remember there are still two lawsuits pending. The truth is going to surface, and it will be up to us, in large part, to make sure that this ball continues to roll.

We saw real heroes step forward today. This may have fallen short of what we might have hoped for, but it was a start.

America is waking up. We are no longer going to stand by and allow our government to run along unaccountable. I feel great about today. We have heroes to stand behind, but make no mistake, we did this.

We are just getting started Tex. :hug:

[texpatriot2004]

24. Seito, thanks for the hug...back at ya. I appreciate your words

here, more than I can say right now.

:hug:

[Bill Bored]

16. This is what will happen:

There will be a bill, for a paper trail, with NO WAY to ensure that it's ever used to audit the vote. It's already been written by Ensign. Reid mentioned it today in fact. See:
<http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=5074>

Then everyone will SAY they have reformed the system, that there is a paper trail. But recounts will only happen if state law requires them. That means, usually only in close elections, or by demand of candidates or voters. See:
<http://www.invisibleida.com/>

What is NEEDED is a mandatory recount of X% of the paper ballots, to prove with reasonable certainty that the machine totals are correct. And of course, such recounts need to be completely random!

So, I say, write Harry Reid, Boxer, Pelosi, and your own Senators and Reps, to demand not only the voter-verified paper trail, but also the mandatory random recounts to use them. Remember, it takes only a handful of votes per precinct to swing an election. Also, this should be done at the STATE level with your state reps, including your governor. EVEN IN TEXAS!

[juajen]

17. Well, I'm not exactly a DU "old timer", but I've been around a bit

and, all I can say is we continue in a better position than we were in after the election. We have an awful lot of info we didn't have before and, I believe, a new resolve. We won't stop. We will continue to do whatever we can to get clarification, redress, and transparency in our election process. This means a continuation of fact-finding; analyzing of data; support for our friends who are helping or have helped; digging through dirt looking for diamonds; and, fighting to stay above water in our own drowning country.

It could be a lot worse. We could have nothing to fight for, sorta like the poor tsunami survivors. So, in short, we continue on.

Today brought us more visibility, authenticity and the "f" word intruding into the mainstream consciousness. It was a victory hard fought and well worth it, even if, to some, it was insufficient. Hell, I wish John Kerry could have ridden in on a white horse too; but, I stopped dreaming that way when I reached adulthood (about eight hours ago).

So, to summarize, to fight and have a cause worth fighting for is to be alive and striving; not good for your nerves, necessarily, but very good for your heart. Love and Peace

[Bill Bored]

19. And keep in mind

If voting can be made verifiable nationwide by 2006, that means a free and fair congressional election in just 2 years! That could be HUGE and it should be our major goal and issue. If the Repukes can be shown in the light of day to have derailed this effort, which they have, then we can get the people to rally around this cause. Yell at the media, Get them to cover it. The vote is unverifiable! This is exactly what that nasty Repug Congresswoman Pryce was afraid of today. The people just need to know the system is broken and they will want change.

Meanwhile, I'd also like to find out what Arnebeck et al are up to!

[texpatriot2004]

26. Thanks Juajen, for this, you're right that we have more than we

did before and we won't stop.

I enjoyed your point about it's not good for the nerves but it's very good for your heart.

Love and Peace to you as well.

[Alizaryn]

18. RevCheesehead summed it up well

"So take a few days and grieve, if you need to. It was a tough election, and we are hurting inside. But come back here and keep on working for reform and investigation, and perhaps a prosecution or two, or an impeachment."

[snot]

20. I'm about to post re- why I think we shd be v. happy

[Blue_In_AK]

30. Wouldn't it be ironic

if Bush's great "victory" on 11/2 ended up being the beginning of the end for Republican domination of our government?

[Bill Bored]

31. My advice? See this thread and KICK it please!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=264034>