Whether we officially split the party or not, it's clear that we are split

[MoonRiver]

Yesterday was the turning point for me. I saw that our Democratic leadership is, by and large, complicit in the the righwing coup d'etat. Flame away, but not opposing a coup is the same as actively working for it. I have now lost all respect for the party I worked so hard to support during the last 4 long, horrible years. I've certainly had misgivings about how fast Dems rolled over on Patriot Act I and the IWR, but I still clung to the belief that they would fight to protect our right to vote.

Yesterday proved to me that my trust was misplaced. What was an opportunity to shine the spotlight on the corruption surrounding 2004 presidential election and Republican policies in general, became a love fest in support of george bush. Our Senate Dems were particularly despicable in their unanimous, save for ONE, votes approving bush's SECOND stolen election. Of course, we couldn't have kept bush from being sworn in. But we had the change to permanently stain his pResidency and put Repukes on the run, in terms of this administration's legitimacy. Certainly, we could have disproved the "mandate" garbage now being strewn about by Rove and his media whores.

Now, it's all over. The rubber stamp of approval has been placed on bush's re-Selection by our pink tutued leaders. THANKS FOR NOTHING, and I'll give you NOTHING back in return.

[zerostar]

1. We did good yesterday!

For me this was never about overturning the vote, much good and much damage has come from yesterday.

Now it seems we are all splitting and falling apart here.

We need to pull together, we have the same basic ideals and we need to find a leader for 2008 that shares those ideals. We need several wins in 2006 and in 2008 and that should be the main focus.

We need to get this behind us and move on with the upcoming elections to gain more seats and more power. A even congress and a even senate would be a great start to Reclaiming America.

We need to keep digging on the fraud that was or was not in the 2004 election, if we can prove it that is great, I don't see that happening, unless someone grows a pair and steps forward nothing evident will come of this.

The republican spin is already at full throttle and if you think they will stop at making every single dem look like we were trying to undermine the election you are wrong.

We need to stop focusing on the fraud issue, at least until there is a smoking gun and we can take these bastards down!

We are looking silly to many people and I truly think it is hurting us overall.

[renaissanceguy]

55. Absolutely.

I think that a new progressive movement has begun. We need to get rid of those "business as usual" senators and reps in 2006 and 2008. We cannot go republican-lite. We have to energize our base and focus on how we can best convey our message (people out there want our message, we just have to sell it to them).
http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16200506

[helderheid]

70. LOVE this bumper sticker

Can you get the text in ORANGE? :)

We did damn good yesterday. Please join Progressive Democrats of America (www.pdamerica.org )

[meganmonkey]

2. See, some of have seen the Dems complicity for years

It's not a new thing. To me, yesterday showed that there was hope in the Dem party.

But as I posted in another thread yesterday (about why, as a Green/Independent, I support the Dems now more than ever), I guess I live in backwards land...

:shrug:

[MoonRiver]

4. All I can say is the party lost me yesterday.

I do not believe that our Senators didn't know details about the Ohio fraud. Yet they still voted to certify the results. That stinks, imho.

[zerostar]

8. What Fraud? Seriously...

What fraud? Problems yes!!!! Fraud? I see no evidence of that besides speculation.

It is a shame that people couldn't vote, a damn shame!

But if they all did get to vote, would it have turned the election? I don't think so, Kerry doesn't think so.

Why overturn the vote then? That makes it look like sour grapes, as it stands it looks like they wanted attention and future discussion on this.

[Botany]

22. I live in Columbus, Ohio

I saw it first hand. I heard it with my own ears.
Their can be no doubt as to fraud in Ohio. IMO I was sickened by
the lack of spine by so many of the democrats yesterday.

No, I did not expect the election to be overturned but .....
If the senators had stood as one (Conyers document gave them cover)
I think it would have been a lightening bolt to the media and the repugs
that the dems were ready to play hardball.

Instead I saw the beaten wife syndrome ...... "I know he loves me and will change."
Hell, after the Clinton witch hunt you would have thought some in the party
would get a spine ...... but no.

Motherfuckers can go back to their Georgetown digs and live the good live
life. But I have to stay in the ruins of the Ohio that once was one of the most
thriving economies in the world and it help all of it's residents ..... not just
the rich.

We have lost 300,000 jobs here in the past 4 years. 275,000 first time Kerry
voters were registered ..... yet somehow Kerry lost?

You bet your ass that their was fraud here. No doubt.

[bowens43]

26. What did you see exactly?

I have no doubt that there was fraud but where's the proof? Where is the evidence that can be used to bring about an indictment of those responsible?

[Botany]

30. This is just some of the knowledge I have ... also The Texas Strike Force

January 5, 2005

An open letter from an Ohio voter

To all concerned Americans:

I live in Ohio and saw and heard election "fraud" first hand. Although I will freely admit that I wanted and worked for John Kerry in the past election, the issue here is more important than parties or people. The issue is whether or not our votes will count. If we do not come forward now and demand that all elected officials give us open and verified voting, we can kiss the idea of democracy good bye. So please contact all U.S. Senators and ask them to stand with a true hero and patriot by the name of John Conyers. Phone, e mail, or fax them now. From the Green at Lexington to the Beaches of Normandy we have had people pay the price for freedom in the past. We owe it to them to do something now.

Facts about me:
1. I still love this country. And as corny as it sounds, folding the American flag at the end of the day at a local pool in the summer with my 10 year old son still makes me proud.

2. My brother works for the Navy in Washington D.C. and on 9/11 I spent two and a half hours wondering if he was in the Pentagon that day. Thankfully he was not.

3. On 11/2/04 I saw election fraud first hand. First, a Republican challenger actively worked with the precinct judge and officials during the voting. Just by chance, one of the three voting machines went down, and when the data was posted from that machine a few days later, it held the most Bush votes, even though it had the lowest numerical number of votes in it. (The other two machines had about 31% Bush votes in them .... the one that went down as it
was being tallied held 42% Bush votes) Even though all voters came from the same precinct.

4. On 11/3/04 I tried to call a voter protection phone line but it had been hacked into by a very sophisticated operation. When I got through all I heard was weird music and a never ending hold. Within an hour of Kerry's concession, the block was gone from the line and replaced with a busy signal. A question keeps going through my mind: why would somebody want to stop a fraud protection phone line if "they" were not up to something?

5. On 11/15/04 I went to a public hearing in Columbus, Ohio, where I was to give sworn testimony about what I saw and heard regarding the election. I saw at least five people (I got there when the meeting was more than half over) get up and say something to the effect of, "I voted for Kerry but the light went on for Bush." That got almost no coverage in the press.

So please call, e mail, or fax all senators today. I am begging you.

Tom from Ohio

[bowens43]

32. This is the kind of thing that needs to be documented.

I hope that there are people in Ohio working to bring those responsible to justice. I know that fraud occurred , but we have to be able to prove it . We have to be very specific. I personally believe that this will end with some of Ohio's Republican leadership being prosecuted.

[Botany]

43. I have given sworn statements

Also when the phone line that was for fraud protection was "playing"
it's creepy message I took it to the Ohio Democratic Party hqs. They did nothing.
Also took it to the State hqs. for Kerry and nobody there did shit too.

Our party is sheep.

[iconoclastNYC]

69. Thank you for your post.

I used to live in Columbus and I called all my friends to make sure they voted and reached someone of them when they were in line to vote and they had been in line for 1-2 hours. They lived in Old Town East, a black neighborhood.

Blackwell and the Republican did everything they could do to get the right result. It was fraud.

[regularjoe]

50. Start by reading Black Box Voting. You can buy it on Amazon

or download it one chapter at a time from blackboxvoting.org

It makes it pretty clear that with the current system altering the results is easy.

I would also suggest beggining some of your reading at http://shadowbox.i8.com/stolen.htm

[emcguffie]

56. why wouldn't they do a legal recount?

In the precincts where the 3% count did show discrepancies, Ohio law says they should have tahen counted the ballots by hand. They refused to do that, instead bringing in a different MACHINE to do it.

They didn't choose the precincts randomly, either.

The recount was nowhere near by the book. Now, if there was no fraud at all, why do you think that was?

The evidence of fraud is all the precincts -- and there are many -- where there were more votes than voters. That is a dead giveaway. Same thing with absentee ballots. More ballots than voters. Where do you think they come from?

[iconoclastNYC]

68. Laws broken regarding the recount

The spirit of the HAVA broken, all the partisan things Blackwell did, holding back the machines, etc, etc, etc....read the report!

[BamaBecky]

46. Take a deep breath - you win some and you lose some, see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=263239&mesg_id=263616&page=

[MoonRiver]

57. We haven't won anything major since Clinton was elected.

So tell me again why I shouldn't be discouraged?

[BamaBecky]

75. They stole it from us.............eom

[mzmolly]

3. "Yesterday" seems to me you have been disgruntled for some time.

I love all the attempts to split the party after our victory yesterday.

[MoonRiver]

6. Exactly what "victory" are you referring to?

The one which made Senator Boxer look like a single nutcase contesting the re-Selection of our pResident? Or did I miss something?

[bowens43]

13. You thought she looked like a nutcase?

Did you turn off the television after she spoke or did you take the time to listen to the rest of the Senators? For that matter did you even take the time to listen to what Sen Boxer said?

This was never about overturning the election. It was about reforming the voting process. EVERY Senator form our side who spoke talked about the problems and the need to fix them.

Yes, you missed a lot.

[MoonRiver]

18. NO, "I" didn't think she looked like a nutcase.

Stop trying to twist my words. I said by having ZERO support/backup in the vote, she was made to look like a nutcase. In other words, her Democratic colleagues did that injustice to her.

[bowens43]

21. Do you understand what she was trying to do?

This wasn't about tossing out the electors. It wasn't about overturning the election. Neither of things had even a remote chance of happening. It was about bringing the issue of vote reform to center stage. They did that in a spectacular manner. They only needed one Senator to object in order to get the debate that had been buried by the Republicans to the attention of mainstream America. Having more Senators vote to support the objection would have been detrimental to the cause. She had great support from our most powerful Senators.

[mzmolly]

44. Boxer deserved the lime light, others let her have it vocally supporting

her. To have a handful more Senators as you said would have distracted from the issue, and taken from her brave stance.

Why people don't get it, I'll never know.

[mzmolly]

14. The one where the former first lady praised Senator Boxer and 32

members of the house voted for. That victory.

http://blog.democrats.com/wewonthedebate

Again, why state that yesteday was a turning point for you?

[whosinpower]

5. Well for me

It said volumes on how democrats ignored the wishes and will of over 57 million voters - that is everyone who voted for Kerry.

Why do they just roll over like good little well trained dogs? I can't help but wonder. What did it gain them from 2000 to 2004? I'll tell you what - it gained them a loss of seats that is what.
And what are they waiting for? Why won't they stand up and FIGHT? Only Senator Boxer had the strength and courage.....the others gave lip service, but in the end - sadly they did not back their flap with a vote. WHY??? It would not of changed anything, and yet it would of changed everything. It would mark the beginning of rebelling against a corrupt and criminal administration. 57 million voters want to know that their vote makes a difference even if it does not put their guy into office. FIGHT.

They recognise that they system of voting is not working. And yet, they approved of the outcome regardless.

I will ask again - what did they have to lose by voting with Boxer? They are already in minority status - and Bush has plainly said he is quite happy to work with democrats as long as they mirror GOP goals - there is no compromise.....so fight dammit.

Maybe someone can explain it to me.....fighting for something you beleive in is better than not fighting at all, IMHO.

[stray cat]

7. Bush is in office because we were split in 2000

We are split but we need to see what we have in common. I don't want the Bush philosophy to continue another 12 years.

[zerostar]

Exactly!

n/t

[montanacowboy]

9. Exactly

I have been a member of the Dem Party probably longer than most of the DU'ers here have even been alive. I can remember what a great and proud party we were - workers, unions, the poor - everyone who had a stake in the American Dream.

Even the Repukes back then were nothing like they are now. You could actually have voted for some of them.

But starting back in the 80's with the ReagenBush reign, things changed and they have been gaining traction and power ever since, and the reason they have is because the Democrats became complacent, cowards, afraid to stand up for what they believed in with the crowning glory of election 2000, watching Al Gore preside over his own destruction and that of our democracy.

And when we had a small chance to get it back, what did we do? Villified Howard Dean and said he was unelectable, but John Kerry was...Kerry was a fast closer, had a plan... stand back, we will see...yes, we sure saw didn't we.

I am finished - I believe the only hope we have, if any at all, is to combine with Greens and Libertarians and start a new party.

Remember Terry McAuliffe will be leading the Pink Tutus again onward toward another disaster, ever onward toward the sea, the stupid lemmings march singing their DLC anthem. They disgust me.

[bowens43]

10. What did you want them to do?

Do you understand that there was absolutely no possibility of the election being reversed. Do you understand that even if every Dem AND every Republican had voted to toss out Ohio's electors it would not have affected the outcome of the election?

What happened yesterday was a HUGE victory. They DID shine the spotlight on corruption. Senator after Senator, Representative after Representative.

What you have to remember is that we have no PROOF of fraud. None. Zip. Zero. I believe fraud occurred but so far we have proved nothing.

[zerostar]

11. Yes!

Believing fraud occurred is one thing, we need proof or we need to move forward.

[MoonRiver]

16. IT WASN'T ABOUT OVERTURNING THE ELECTION.

We didn't have the votes in Congress to do that.

Just how can you state with a straight face that "What happened yesterday was a HUGE victory"???? Nobody was paying attention, because our Senators, and most of our Reps. voted that there was NO corruption, in the 2004 election, by voting against the Tubbs/Boxer contest. The only way our leaders could have made a point was by supporting the contest. Now, it looks like a few crackpots were just sore losers, and their democratic colleagues, almost unanimously, disagreed with them. THAT IS ALL WE ACCOMPLISHED. I'm underwhelmed.

[bowens43]

23. No one voted that there was no corruption.

What some of them said was that they saw no convincing evidence of fraud and frankly , although I believe there was fraud, neither have I.

The goal was to bring the issue to the attention of the public. We did that.

[IndyOp]

17. We DO have proof of fraud -- not enough, but we DO have proof.

There were fewer signatures in poll-books than votes, punch cards that were pre-punched for Bush, and more. Read Conyers' 102-pages report.

There was evidence of fraud *and* we need a lot more before acting. We don't want to snare just a few local functionaries -- we want the BIG actors.

:kick:

[bowens43]

29. Exactly.

We need to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and we need to have enough evidence to bring about indictments. When we have that evidence then there will be no way to stop the reforms that are needed. Our Senators did not have the evidence they needed to convince them that intentional fraud had occurred, still they spoke eloquently about the problems and the need for reform.

[ClassWarrior]

54. Yup, we need OVERWHELMING proof that brings down the big'uns.

NGU.

[seabeyond]

12. there is lots to do. you can do it. or not do it

that is all that i am seeing as far as split and dont really see a split. go after the things you are interested in and a big thumbs up., as a collective whole. you dont agree with me, really so.......i will do my thing. personally i am going to start a communication with my local. my state senator that is out of this city and my representitive of this area. and i am going to work with the democratic party here. i would also like to reach out with groups of democrats in texas. not necessarily our democratic leaders because i understand they are pretty bad too. i dont know. gonna have to do some research

this is a nation of the people. that is what i am saying

be one of the people with voice or not. dont worry what others are doing

does that make me split with you

[IndyOp]

15. I appreciate you speaking your mind *and* I think the following statement

is wrong: I saw that our Democratic leadership is, by and large, complicit in the the righwing coup d'etat. READ their statements - even Byrd's letter explaining why he would not contest threatened to uncover any fraud and follow it up to the highest levels, Bernie Sanders raged, they made the voter suppression REAL, they stood and they spoke.

The rubber stamp of approval has been placed on bush's re-Selection by our pink tutued leaders. Rubber stamp? There was nothing else they could have done that would have humiliated Cheney, Bush and the Repubs more.

Now it is up to US to make sure that they stay as aggressive in future as they were yesterday -- in other words 'TAG - YOU'RE IT'

:kick:

[Blue_In_AK]

19. The Republicans....

...want nothing more than to see the Democratic party split, factionalized and eating its own.

[MoonRiver]

20. What difference will it make?

They have been able to successfully steal elections with virtually no opposition from the "opposition" party. The fix is in.

[Blue_In_AK]

28. "The Fix is In"

Maybe so, but that's all the more reason for us to stick together and put the pressure on. Not saying that there can't be a difference of opinions, but in this case it seems like "united we stand, divided we fall" (even more).

[WilliamPitt]

24. 'We'? You got a mouse in your pocket?

Time to dust off my old "DU does not accurately reflect the party or the movement" banner from the primaries.

The difference between internet reality and reality is the difference between the sun and the moon.

[wiggs]

60. An insightful writer wrote this....

"The fact that candidates of both parties too often acquiesce to the so-called Nixon Rule on elections – a tacit agreement not to argue the outcome of questionable elections, which came about after the riddled-with-inconsistencies 1960 presidential race – means that people who do violate the public trust by violating the sanctity of the ballot are safe from censure, especially if their actions lead to a victory.

In a perfect world, all 100 Senators would stand up because of one simple fact: They are where they are because of the vote, and if they do not protect that vote, it may be them looking at the short end of the stick come some future election day. All 100 should stand, but it only takes one. It only takes one to move us closer to that more perfect union, where every vote counts and every vote is counted, where the citizenry can trust that the people leading them were properly chosen, where partisans acting in the dark of night to thwart that simple, admirable goal are exposed and purged from our system."

One senator and 31 representatives broke the "tacit agreement not to argue," which is great. I'm glad one did and I'm glad a discussion happened.

Many more in congress chose not to censure "partisans acting in the dark of night" for reasons that are unclear to me at this point. That's all. You said all should stand and I'm happy to agree with you!

[leanin_green]

62. But you forget, dear William, the moon reflects the light of the sun.

We may not represent the party or the movement, but what they do is reflected in us. We listen, participate and reflect what we see happening in the party. Now that solar(Party)light is eclipsed by the earthbound reality of what is happening and the reflector(moon/DU)appears to be red with anger and turmoil.

[RaulVB]

25. You're right, unfortunately...

Those "Democrats" endorsed "*" yesterday...

[wiggs]

27. Actions are consistent with the last 4 years

This is the way congress has acted over the last 4 years...turning a blind eye, rolling over, ignoring lies, giving power away to a dangerous administration, keeping under the radar, apologizing for dissent.

They are either timidly biding their time and cautiously picking their battles, or they are part of entrenched power that doesn't take exception to corporatism and concentration of wealth at the top. Nothing new. Disappointing, but not new.

We are split here at DU...it surprises me how quickly we all went from thinking that the Ohio vote was unclear (Conyers certainly thinks so too) to most DU'rs thinking that the Ohio vote is not really in doubt because enough hard evidence wasn't turned up by a bunch of volunteers and half an informal committee in a short time.

[FreepFryer]

31. You are welcome to leave the party - if you cannot recognize a victory,

you're unlikely to work for it.

[MoonRiver]

33. I have left.

I'll come back if the leaders start showing spine, and not one second sooner.

[ClassWarrior]

36. Then please cancel your membership to this board.

This is a place for DEMOCRATS. It's in the rules. Look it up.

NGU.

[leanin_green]

71. Actually, it's Democrats of all stripes and other Progressives. . .

Further, this a big tent site. Perhaps if you can't be more tolerant yourself, you should go somewhere else.

[FreepFryer]

39. Spine means not leaving. You mightn't recognize spine when you see it.

[leanin_green]

72. I'll admit, I've left in spirit myself.

I'll still support those Dems that show courage and take a risk in the days ahead, but, essentially I'm "leanin'green.

[MoonRiver]

76. Seems we're on the same page.

If my vote doesn't count, I want it to at least mean something to me.

[RaulVB]

34. Who is in the WH?

How many Democratic Senators said "*" "won"?

What "victory"?

[FreepFryer]

40. victory = debate in the Senate and the House over Election Protection

During which the GOP painted itself firmly into the anti-voting frame.

I'm sorry Bush is the president. Believe me I am. But this was an excellent day on the Hill for Democrats. In four years of barely any good days at all.

[RaulVB]

47. Only for the ones who voted "Nay" (n/t)

[FreepFryer]

59. If you refuse to see any benefit from yesterday, we simply disagree.

Fact is, now Election Reform must be addressed. The grassroots won't permit it to languish... won't we?

<edit: added message text>

[MoonRiver]

63. Why "must" it be addressed?

Exactly WHO is going to force the Republican majority to address it? If Dems try to discuss it, their votes sanctifying the 2004 election will just be thrown back at them. 'Tell me Rep/Senator So and So, just why did you vote to certify the contested Ohio results if you believe election fraud to be rampant, hmmmmm?'

[FreepFryer]

64. If they suppress it, in light of this challenge, many GOPers will go ABB.

[MoonRiver]

65. I would love to believe your analysis,

but it doesn't jive with historical precedent. Repubs are a very united party. A few will venture away on one or two issues, but overall they hang together. Even Chafee has proven himself to be a good Repub partisan. No major block of them will ever stand with us, imho.

[FreepFryer]

66. And so must we be. Bush is more divisive than any president ever.

[leanin_green]

73. Benefit to all those who toe the line.

All that was accomplished yesterday was symbolic. You forget, the election was already stolen. They got away with it and perfected and will continue to perfect their system of election charades. If you don't get in line, you'll be voted out(heh heh), not by us, that's for sure. Most every thread I've been reading is suffering under the delusion that there is still a participatory governmental process for the people. We've been removed, marginalized, and made ineffectual in future elections. Elections will be exercises in name only. Future sheeple will obediently flock to the polls, but their vote will essentially mean nothing. We'll dutifully go through the outward appearance of a democratic society that has no basis in reality. They'll allow us to continue to labor under the illusion that we have free speech and can share inane opinions on boards such as this all the while knowing that we have no power, not even at the voting booth.

[bowens43]

51. One more time......

This was NOT about overturning the election. It was not about disqualifying the Ohio electors. Neither of those things could have happened. It is about reforming the voting process. It is about working to ensure that there will be free and fair elections in the future. This debate was buried by the Republicans. As several Senators and Representatives stated, the republicans refused to allow debate or votes on proposed vote reform legislation. They can't afford to do that anymore.

[MoonRiver]

52. And who is going to stop Pukes from burying the election reform issue?

Democrats?lolol! Nope. Yesterday was the Democrats big chance to bring the issue into the public arena. But instead THEY COPED OUT. I'm sure very few Americans even know about the debate. Those who do just think a couple of crackpots, who weren't even supported by the rest of their party, had a hissy fit.

[bowens43]

53. Copped out?!?!?

Where were you yesterday? They DID bring it to the public arena. Maybe you missed it but is was broadcast LIVE.


You really need to try to understand how the congress works. The point was made. The point was taken. It will now take COOPERATION to get reform. The republicans can longer afford to ignore the issue.

I thought you were leaving?

[ClassWarrior]

35. YOU'RE RIGHT - IT'S CLEAR THE GOP IS SPLIT...

And we just need to pry that crack wider.

NGU.

[Blue_In_AK]

37. Class Warrior

Are you speaking of the moderate Republicans? I was just talking about them on another thread. I truly believe these people are our hope.

[FreepFryer]

41. Correct. The Moderate Republicans, once converted into 'ABB'ers...

...'Anyone But Bush' that is...

[ClassWarrior]

49. The split - the unholy alliance that has existed since Goldwater...

...is between the fundies and the corporatists. The corporatists manipulate the "moral" and "values" messages of the fundies, and put up straw dogs like "flag burning" and "partial birth abortion" to distract the masses, so they can rape, pillage, and plunder whomever they want unquestioned.

It really IS an unholy alliance, for the corporatists care fuck-all for moral issues. They're the moderates of Mission Hills that Thos. Frank mentions in "What's the Matter with Kansas." And the fundies I'm sure aren't too pleased with much of what corporate America peddles - sex, booze, gambling, etc. But they tolerate one another and look the other way for their mutual gain, blaming society's ills on a ghost called "liberals."

That's the split. And we need to crack it wide open.

NGU.

[BamaBecky]

38. Another way to look at this situation is:

Congress is corporate controlled. Corporations grease the skids. Special Interests write the legislation. That's for both parties!!!
We the PEOPLE HAVE TO TAKE OUR PARTY BACK. You could splinter off into another party if you want to, but the corporations will get to them too!

If you doubt what I'm telling you, read Confessions of a Hit Man


We are the people who have to change the minds of the legislatures and make them listen to us. And that's not going to be an easy hill to climb. We have to become a force to be reckoned with. If we splinter up and divide - we are doomed.
:kick:

[cry baby]

42. KKKarl Rove's wet dream headline: Democratic Party Splits

I just think we mustn't let go of each other, no matter what. We need each other.

[Califooyah Operative]

77. amen.

The official split only happens if you choose to let go. or it's gonna be like the old-old-old days, but way worse. I don't want to see a southern and a northern dem run against each other in a presidential election or we're really gonna be done. Unite behind common progressive interests and values, don't divide over the differences, you're falling right into the trap if you do. That is the republican strategy; to divide and conquer.

[KittyWampus]

45. The GOP And Karl Rove THANK YOU.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. No they thank you

[Mr.Green93]

58. Everyones

just blowing off steam. In a little time we will all fall back in formation pick up the party line and tow it.

[tx_dem41]

61. It's only apparent to me that DU is split....

but DU isn't the entirety of the Democratic Party.

[ClassWarrior]

67. Yup. Between Progressives and trolls.

NGU.

[rainman99]

74. Don't forget: They want us to split as much as we want them to split.

Don't let them win anymore than they already have.