How do we feel about Kerry. is there still love for the man?

[roenyc]

i need to get something off my chest. the man let me down and let my racially mixed family down.

along with the senate but more then anything he was the biggest disappointment ever. and i just dont know if i am being a baby or if i am justified in saying it. WTF? he just ran away?

seams so convenient so cold and so wrong. he should have supported this and should have stood up with the party. Jan 6th could have been a great day for democrats - we could have said "we're not gonna take it" instead we said, some of us are still gonna kiss your ass please dont hate us.

have you guys written him?

[molly]

1. He did not "RUN AWAY" and I absolutely still love the man!

we are all disappointed with a lot of what has happened, but what was within our grasp - think reality!

[NMDemDist2]

2. agreed n/t

[pbartch]

119. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. Senator Kerry has not RUN away.

And I think election reform, taking back the "Stolen Election" from Ohio will occur.

[Klimmer]

152. And I also agree, you need to see the big picture . . .

I have a lot of faith in Kerry's abilities:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=264053&mesg_id=269993

He still has our back and I have his.

[In Truth We Trust]

200. Bottom line is he quite ironically was AWOL re: shining spotlight on spot-

light on fraWd. Before you flame me I will say I supported him actively. He was my former county prosecutor, Lt. Gov., and Senator before I moved to NC.

All the talk of secret chess strategies was wishful thinking imho. Either you are vocal and out there or not. You are either a part of the slotion or a part of the problem. I gave him until Jan. 6th to show me where he had our backs and you know what; he did not have our backs.

Bottom line for me is that he DID NOT HAVE OUR BACKS.

[Skittles]

3. I'm finding it very dificult

I haven't heard sh** from him and yes he should have stood up and said something Jan 6 - THAT would have made news and if the Democrats need anything it is publicity of the fact that WE ARE ON TO THE THIEVING FACIST BASTARDS.

[dkofos]

35. I agree

There is no way the media could have ignored the EC dispute if it had been Kerry instead of BB.
Keeping his nose clean for 08.
OH well, that's the DLC for you.

[SaveAmerica]

52. What version would have made the news?

[bunny planet]

105. Yeah, and all of the publicity would have been 'Sore-Loser' John Kerry.

puhleeeeeeeze, get real. He did the right thing. Every bit of coverage would have been about Kerry and not about an election system that is badly broken and needs to be fixed NOW, to paraphrase Barbara Boxer.

BTW, Barbara Boxer was interviewed on AAR last night and she said that only one Senator was needed to stand to bring about the debate and so that is what they decided on together. She knew no other Senator was going to vote yea. She also said that this was just the beginning, and that we should expect GREAT things from Harry Reid. She said " you trusted me on this (meaning the electoral challenge), please trust me on this (Harry Reid)."

[Withywindle]

155. Thanks for this info!

Don't have AAR here - that's good and very important to know, that Boxer knew no one else would vote YEA and she didn't think it mattered, and that the battle has just begun. Excellent.


I do trust Boxer. And Kerry. Not blindly, not cultishly--but with my eyes wide open, watching them closely and liking most of what I see.

[TruthIsAll]

197. Who cares what the Repuke/Media would call him?

What matters is: What are the facts? What is the evidence?

And there is plenty.

[bunny planet]

201. I appreciate all the work you've done gathering evidence TIA

Have you sent any of it to Conyers, Boxer, or Kerry?

[Klimmer]

156. Actually John Kerry did submit his comments into the written record . . .

on 1-6-05 to be included in the historic contest. Someone posted here in DU regarding this. I printed myself a copy. Hope I type this link in correctly, here goes . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x264688#264688

[iamjoy]

4. I Feel...Ambivalent

disappointment, pity, frustration...

I don't care if he runs again or not.
I have talked with other people, people with whom I worked with on the campaign and when I say "2008" they still think Kerry. I don't. But I'm not really mad at him in the sense that I feel betrayed. I see him as weak now...a loser.

I started out being apathetic about him, but still volunteered with his campaign. At first I was in the ABB mode. When I saw him at the convention, I understood intellectually why he was our nominee, but still wasn't enthusiastic. I saw him and Edwards in address a crowd of some 8,000. It wasn't until I saw him speak to a gathering of 500 that I was really enthusiastic about HIM - and that was 1 month before the election.

But if he were to run again, he'd have to work twice as hard to convince me why he deserves my support.

[Angelique]

183. I don't care if he runs again or not.

Something inside of me says give him another chance, but I am always for the downtrodden, and I seem to always get hurt.

[Splinter Cell]

5. I want him to be the next president.

To blame John Kerry for this is weak. It's too simple and easy to blame him, and it's not his fault. He fought one hell of a campaign, and when it became clear that he wasn't going to get it, he decided to fight another day.

Would you have rather he put up a major fuss, only to destroy his future politically, and hurt the democrats for the next two election cycles? Or would you rather he saw when he's been cheated, and quietly plotted his revenge? I'd prefer him to make a comeback, and kick some ass.

Keep this in mind, we won in 2000 and we won in 2004. Having that moral(ironic, ain't it?)victory over Bush, and knowing he really lost, makes it easier to keep fighting his chimp ideas and moronic administration.

[whometense]

20. Oh yeah.

Nicely put. I agree 100%

[Peace Patriot]

37. Dear Godfather:

"Keep this in mind, we won in 2000 and we won in 2004. Having that moral(ironic, ain't it?)victory over Bush, and knowing he really lost, makes it easier to keep fighting his chimp ideas and moronic administration."

Yes, we won in 2000 and 2004, but we will never, never, never win again, because the BushCons now own and control the election system, and the Democrats and Kerry failed to strongly object when this inherently fraudulent system was put into place, failed to warn the voters what BushCons had the easy capability of doing (stealing the election electronically), and failed to protest when investigators came up with overwhelming evidence that that is what they did do.

Let me repeat: BushCons--Bush "Pioneers," major donors, one of whom stated in writing that he would "deliver Ohio to Bush in '04," and another who is a rightwing Christian nut--OWN AND CONTROL the system that records and counts all our votes!

That system is extremely insecure, unreliable and hackable. And they further insisted that it needs NO PAPER TRAIL (and achieved that in a third of the country).

Unless this system is dismantled, and we achieve TRANSPARENT elections, we will have no progressive president and no progressive Congress EVER AGAIN.

John Kerry betrayed us, lied to us, and then abandoned us to defend our vote ourselves. I shall never forgive him for it.

Betrayal: Sitting in Congress while BushCons took over our election system, and not screaming bloody murder about it, and warning us.

Lies: "Every vote will be counted"--repeated over and over again.

Abandonment: He should have burned his career to the ground, if that was necessary, to protest this election. He owed it to the people--the grass roots volunteers who worked so hard to elect him and who SUCCEEDED--and he owed it to the voters who came out in droves and stood in 10 hour lines to vote for him. He SHOULD HAVE protested this election!

Do I still love him? Maybe "love" is too strong a word. I think he's a good and decent and intelligent man (as insider DC politicians go, and in so far as anyone can tell these things from a distance). I do feel compassion for him--and for all the Democrats who have compromised and stood down in the face of BushCon thuggery. They are dealing with a dangerous, conscienceless, fascist coup. They are scared. And it is very understandable.

But I think we ignore these facts at our peril. Betrayal, lies and abandonment--by Kerry and by most of the Democratic leadership.

I was going to re-register Green, if the Democrats did not defend us by, or on, Jan. 6. (44 years a loyal supportive Democrat, through a lot of shit--the Vietnam War, NAFTA, the Iraq War!). Barbara Boxer and John Conyers have given me pause. I don't want to hurt THEM. So we'll see. I'm still considering what to do. And it may be that it doesn't matter--since we have, in fact, lost our right to vote.

What we have to do now is get it back!

I think our only hope in getting it back is local, state by state action. (The BushCon Congress is NOT going to reform the election system! --and they may do it more harm.) The Greens may be the best allies for such an effort. They alone have defended our right to vote. That is a reason to join them, and support them. (One can still vote for Democrats, selectively.)

Or, do we hang with Dean, Boxer, Conyers and others, and try to further empower them within the Dem Party?

Whatever anybody does as to affiliation, there is only one issue now: electronic voting, and who controls it.

(Vote suppression is a subset of that--it is not the main problem. The REASON BushCons felt so emboldened as to AGAIN hit black voters, after '00, is that they had control of the electronics and could manufacture a BushCon win. They had no fear of retribution!).

Godfather, I agree with you on several points, though.

1) Our situation now has little to do with how Kerry and the DNC ran the campaign. In fact they--we--won! Some think if they'd been stronger on the war, etc., we would have gotten a big enough margin to overcome the fraud. I think the BushCon hackers would have stolen whatever they needed to win, and with absolute zero vigilance in the press and by the Dems, would have gotten away with it. If the truth were known, something like 53% to 55% of voters agreed with Kerry and rejected Bush.

2) This is very heartening--that voters saw through all the B.S. (with no help from the press) and repudiated Bush.

However, many of these voters will never vote again. Most of them DON'T KNOW that we won--in large part due to John Kerry's early concession, even before all the votes were counted (so much for THAT promise!), and his continued silence. The (true) margin we produced for Kerry, in new voter registrations (Dems 57%, Rep 41%) and in Nader voters voting for Kerry, is a one time thing. The Bush "win" was too demoralizing. New voters will bail, as will Naderites and Greens.

But that majority IS heartening. The problem is, how to get its will enforced? And you just can't do that by standing down on their right to vote!

[merh]

66. John Kerry has not abandoned us.

If there was evidence of fraud, real evidence (an insider spilling the beans on how they did it, the access codes that show how they did it, etc) then he would have fought like hell for his place.

However, all we have is very strong suspicions, the disenfranchisement that occurred in Ohio is hard to prove that the RNC was solely responsible because we had dems on the BOE's.

The strong suspicions that we have all add up to make a case of fraud, but without evidence, it is hard to get an investigation, let alone an indictment.

Kerry in Iraq is proof that he will not be playing by the repukes rules during this term as senator. He did wait around for them, he went out on his own to determine what is actually occurring in Iraq. If he had stood up on the 6th, the entire thing would have been about him and not the process and the election fraud.

It is you and others on this board that have abandoned "us". This is our government, our democracy. When you don't recognize the strengths of the party, when you don't appreciate what was accomplished despite the efforts to distort, then you are only letting yourself down.

I am proud of my candidate and the party. WE DID WIN. People really liked Kerry. The sad thing is, the repugs used so many different ways to steal votes and pad the weed's numbers, that it will take time to uncover their crimes.

Before you can correct weaknesses, you must first recognize strengths.

[Peace Patriot]

93. I don't understand this blindness about the evidence for fraud.

1. BushCons deliberately, methodically set up a fraudulent, unauditable, insecure, unreliable, hackable election system, run on secret source code owned by BushCon companies--with Tom Delay running interference for them in Congress (preventing ANY transparency) on Bush's behalf--with no great squawks from the Democratic leadership.

2. Gore won the popular majority in '00. The Dems out-registered Reps in new voters 57% to 41%, in '04.

3. Most Nader voters and Greens broke for Kerry.

(2 & 3: One expert has put the predictable Kerry margin from all this at 5.4 million votes!)

4. Bush's approval rating by election day was so low that one pollster said it was impossible for him to win. (The war was also very unpopular.)

5. Huge turnout on Election Day in Democratic areas.

6. Exit Polls showing a Kerry win and possible landslide all day long on 11/2.

7. Karen Hughes tells Bush he lost.

8. Bush wins. (WTF?!)

9. TV networks ALTER the Exit Polls, "adjusting" them to fit the BushCon controlled electronic "official results"--so that Americans don't know there were two conflicting results--unlike in every other country in the world including the Ukraine.)

10. Two months later: Bush approval rating STILL a miserable 48%--same as election day--the lowest rating of any 2nd term president since WWII. (And DISapproval of Iraq war consistent at almost 60%.)

11. In the meantime, experts, smart techies and crazy Leftist bloggers get hold of screen shots of the Exit Polls (and all the data eventually, through leaks) and ESTABLISH the astronomical odds against a Bush win; and then compare Bush/Kerry on OTHER data as well (paper vs. electronic, top of the ticket vs. lower ticket, etc.) and find the same thing--astronomical odds against all anomalous numbers favoring Bush. (UofPenn/MIT, U. of Chicago, UC Berkeley, and others.)

12. Greens/Libs investigate Ohio and find that ALL vote suppression incidents and ALL malfunctioning machines, glitches, and anomalous numbers favor Bush and hurt Kerry--more astronomical odds--and further find obstruction and hiding/destruction of evidence.

-----

New list:

A) We cannot produce "absolute proof" of fraud BECAUSE the election system is SO NON-TRANSPARENT.

B) A non-transparent election system IS A FRAUD.

C) The BushCons had means, motive and opportunity to commit fraud--and had done it before.

D) There is overwhelming INFERENTIAL evidence that Kerry won.

----

Many criminals have been sent to jail on less evidence than this. (Financial fraud can be proven with statistical evidence!)

But that isn't the point. You don't have to catch the criminals red-handed to PROVE that this election was *INVALID*. All you have to show is its utter NON-TRANSPARENCY and the strong inferential evidence that the outcome was wrong.

Invalid!

Given all of the above, Kerry and the Dems should have been screaming bloody murder about this election. They should have taken the matter to Congress and FORCED the BushCon flaks there to deal with it. To vote it up or down. They should have challenged every Electoral Vote in the country! They should have demanded a re-vote.

The problem is that the Dem centrist/right leadership SUPPORTS THE WAR IN IRAQ, against the wishes of the people in their party, and most of the people in the country! And so they refused to do anything to "de-stabilize the country in a time of war."

Well, I'm sorry but this country NEEDS TO BE "de-stabilized."

The Dem leadership shoved a pro-war candidate down our throats--and they basically don't care which pro-war candidate continues that war.

*I* care, not for love of Kerry, but because he would have had a mandate for change, and the grass roots would have pushed him hard. And change was needed on so many fronts--alternative energy, social justice, environmental policy, stopping the looting of the federal gov't, judgeships, Social Security, and on and on--on all of which Kerry would have been far better than Bush, and beholden to a more progressive constituency.

But the Dem leadership apparently doesn't care about any of this--NOR about peace.

Anyway, once again, fraud never had to be proven with "absolute certainty." That is a red herring!

[merh]

106. In a criminal case, the elements of the crime must be

proven beyond a reasonable doubt. As of now, there is a reasonable doubt because they used so many methods to pad and steal votes. The "brillant" thing about their theft and fraud is they didn't just use one method, they used multiple methods. As one repuke congressman argued on the floor on the 6th, it appears that it would have taken thousands of people to pull of the fraud as supported by the evidence today. We have to narrow the field of play. We have to focus are efforts on decreasing the numbers in the "enterprise" and in limiting the number of the parties involved.

[RevCheesehead]

127. What you outlined above could NOT be proven in a 2-hr debate.

I agree. I believe there is evidence of fraud, but it is, right now, circumstantial at best.

Did you really think that impassioned pleas by Democrats would have led the Republicans to scratch their heads and say, "golly - maybe we need to take a look at this. Let's stop and recount all the votes, fix the machines, and declare this election invalid." Of course not.

If all the Senate and House members voted their objection, the 2-hour debate and vote would have been THE END. The house members showed in their speeches that they are going to be blatantly partisan, no matter what was said.

No matter what was said, NOTHING was going to change the unofficial results of the election. And no moderate Republicans would have joined in - there is too much "reasonable doubt" - and it would have been their own political suicide.

Really big problems are never solved quickly. The mistake of HAVA was in believing that "we got it right." To expose the corruption that exists within the system will take time. But the Dems have already signalled that they are moving on shrub (note their letter to Bush yesterday).

This ain't over, by a long shot!!!

[mahina]

108. Entirely agree, well said.

[Mend]

6. These men are human...

Kerry worked his butt off to get elected and probably he and Edwards were the winners. I imagine how broken they must feel and profoundly they sense their responsibility to the rest of us and how devastating bush is to the entire world. I would think Kerry needs time to heal and regroup. Maybe his concept of how to change this corrupt system is different and more organized than a rant from the rooftop. Time will tell.

[rodeodance]

8. nicely said:-)

[bunny planet]

121. yes, and nobody ever mentions the situation with Elizabeth Edwards

undergoing cancer treatments at the moment. Isn't it just possible, that out of respect for his running mate and his family, that John Kerry decided to do whatever he was going to do in as discreet a manner as possible, being the statesman and gentleman that he is, so as to keep the media monsters and Republicans with no shame off of their backs at such a difficult time. Geez, do you people have kids and families. Some of you are so God damn judgemental and sure of yourselves. This is not directed at you Mend!

[Klimmer]

208. I Agree. Just read the latest article in Newsweek (1-10-05) . . .

The article inside this issue is ---

"I'm Going to Learn:

First, the blame. Then, the healing. In a new book, Newsweek talks exclusively with John Kerry about why he lost---and looks at his plans for another run."

The interview took place sometime in mid November, so how he feels exactly today is I'm sure different. But reading the article, I got the real feel of the hurt and depression he felt just after the election.

But now he is coming out fighting! He is acting presidential and doing what must be done. He is "My President!"

[pnorman]

7. There never was "love" from me,

but I've come to respect him as a man of character, But had he been elected, he'd be trying to undo this disaster, but with half measures. In the long run, it may be for the best; a root & branch "revolution" may be the only way out of this QUAGMIRE at so many levels. But like many here, I was hoping fervently to see a glimmer of daybreak in my lifetime.

pnorman

[Peace Patriot]

50. "it may be for the best"--pnorman

I considered this. But I can't get past the 100,000+ innocents dead in Iraq, and more dying every day from BushCon orders to kill them, and from disease and deprivation, the continued US soldier deaths, and all the other deaths, devastations and despair the BushCon coup will accomplish.

It was NOT for the best. NOT!

Despair is the worst of the BushCon poisons. Even if Kerry would have done half-measures (on Iraq or any matter), it would at least have given people hope that we could become a good country again. And who would Kerry have been beholden to? --the grass roots that got out new voters, Greens and Naderites! Americans rejected Bush, by a landslide. If that vote had been enforced, think of the joy and positive energy that would have been felt here, and around the world. It would be a great boon even now, if people only knew! (--and given us more shoulders to the wheel, for our next task: getting back our right to vote).

The media colluded: They hid the Exit Polls (that Kerry won). Deep dark despair everywhere, and most people don't know what the real problem is (and how simple it is to fix if we do it NOW!) (Paper ballots, hand counts, and honest Exit Polls.) But this is going to be a hard fight, with most people NOT KNOWING what happened, and Dem leaders in denial about it.

For the best? No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o way!

[GetTheRightVote]

83. amen to you, those who blind themselves to reality are to live it again

:mad: & :grr:

[roenyc]

186. I think you hit my problem right on the head

Look what this mad man did in 4 years to this country and to the middle east. what will he do in 4 more.

I guess i thought it was more important for the neo-cons to be stopped no matter who looks like a sore loser.

No matter how many of them scream like crazy nut jobs. because we are right and we would have proven it if we were allowed to get our hands on the evidence.

its hard to "prove" something when you cant get the proof. the proof is being hijacked by a jerk who wants to run for Governor and could care less about the glibs.

so now we have a torture guy as Attorney General, only because he is the chimps buddy. condi is secretary of state! neo-con nut jobs are running the so called "war". and they have the news outlets bought and sold. soon Social Security will be run by wall street. Medicaid was raped and sold to the drug companies.


my God in 4 years he destroyed democracy and the Dem's watched. he destroyed a Iraq and their people. he destroyed our economy. he did it in this phony right wing religion BS.

i am having a fit. i must breath. ok.

that is why i thought it was very important that everyone go ballistic on this election fraud from day one. and i think Edwards wanted to.

but you know there are all kinds of deals that go on that i guess we know nothing about. i just know that the chimp and his crew are on a path to destruction and constant war and terror. and he is the most dangerous man in the world in my opinion. and our people are letting him get away with all kinds of stupid shit.

[Jersey Devil]

9. I think he did what he had to do as a politician

I think the problem with many is that they feel he let them down, abandoned them on the issue of election fraud/voter suppression. I can't say he didn't do that, but I think I can say that as a politician I can understand why he did it. He wanted to live for another day, another chance and felt that by being labeled as a "sore loserman" he would be less likely to have that second chance.

OK, I understand that people want their pols to be moralists and to stand up for what is right. But as a practical matter if they did that every time their political lives would likely be short ones.

I think it is the pragmatist in me that will allow that to happen without any anger. I believe that flawed as our Dem pols may be they will, if elected, do far more good to undo the harm inflicted by Republicans.

So I am willing to accept it and continue to support Kerry. I also think he is a hellova smart man and learned a lot from the mistakes he made during the campaign.

As for running someone again who has lost, I have personal experience in that. I ran for local town council and lost by about 1,000 votes and it was my first time running for office. The next year, having learned from my mistakes I wanted to run again but met with great opposition because I was a "loser". I didn't let it get me down and did win a spot on the ballot and won by 1,500 votes. I think Kerry can do the same.

[marcologico]

28. Yep, Kerry lost, or "lost," more decisively than Gore, so a Gore-style

recount wouldn't have accomplished anything but making him look like a lunatic, and we'd all be laughing. The votes weren't there. That's why they're called "paperless" electronic ballots.

[TruthIsAll]

196. Gore did not lose. Kerry did not lose. Neither fought as they should have.

Gore tried, but (his lawyers) made the mistake of not initially requesting that ALL the votes in FL be recounted.

Kerry must be aware that he won easily.
He was being crowned by the media and his own people that day.

Irregularities? Milquetoast.
Fraud? Stronger.
Coup? That's the ticket.

[BlueInRed]

203. Yep

And even though Gore's strategy wasn't right, he didn't just fold up his tent and go home. He fought for over a month and didn't stop until the Supremes shut him down. He hired the best name lawyers (even though they goofed). He withstood a month of people chanting outside his door "sore loser" and "get out of Cheney's house". I can't ask for more than going to the highest court in the land.
Gore is a BIG contrast to Kerry. HUGE.

[BeFree]

10. Gore after 2000

I lost faith in Gore since he did not stand and fight.
Kerry is now in the same boat.

Of course, Kerry didn't get the hearings in congress: We did.
Conyers, Boxer, et al, led the charge we supplied.
It's time to look at who will be the candidate in 2008, we have a nice field, and we can winnow that field quickly by harvesting only those who proudly proclaim: "The Election Was Stolen"

[marcologico]

58. Gore didn't stand and fight?!?

Were you not on the planet in 2000? Gore fought for two months!

[BeFree]

65. Yes, you are right

But then he quit fighting. Jesse Jackson is the only one now fighting, eh?

[RevCheesehead]

128. perhaps because he was out of a job had something to do with it. n/t

[bunny planet]

141. He fought it all the way to the Supreme Court, where else was he supposed

to go The Supreme Supreme Court????

In hindsight, Gore should have encouraged Senators to join with the CBC on the floor in Congress to protest the Florida electors, and he should have cast the deciding vote. He has even said now that he made a mistake, but who could have known at that time that * would be an unmitigated disaster to the degree that he ended up being.

[BeFree]

175. Thanks for the reminders

Gore did do something, and mistakes were made.

I guess it boils down to what it is happening now. What has Gore done today, and what tomorrow will he do to end the vote stealing? That is my number one issue, nationally.

I hope Gore speaks out, I'd love to hear from him on this issue.

[bunny planet]

181. Yes, I am wondering where Gore is right about now.

Is it concievable that he will try and run in 2008? Perhaps that is why he is so silent. Who knows. Also wondering where Al Sharpton is. I never thought he'd ever be so silent. It is very perplexing.

[roenyc]

187. i saw Al Sharpton on Crossfire

a few weeks ago, and in the way only Al Sharpton can he mention the theft of the election. The only one ever to say it. love him. shame they will not let him get over his past. but our pRez has a past that most people cant get a job at mcDonalds with. but thats ok.

[The Flaming Red Head]

11. I liked him until he conceded

now I don't give a damn what he does.

[mimitabby]

34. same here

and then i go back to the skull and bones thing!
rich elitist men... barf

[The Flaming Red Head]

41. Maybe they paid him off like Armstrong

cost a lot more but I'm sure it was worth it.
No conspiracy just a little (big) bribe between brothers.

[SaveAmerica]

54. I heard he needed extra $$ for Christmas ; )

[ooglymoogly]

47. same here

[VAMom]

195. I still wonder tho if he doesn't have...

something up his sleeve? Maybe I'm just the eternal optimistic, but I'm not going to believe that he is out until Jan 22

[mikehiggins]

12. No love here

I couldn't understand why he was the candidate, though I supported him as much as anyone could who simply, absolutely, positively hated the idea of a Bush administration.

I think he ran a weak campaign and were it not for the depth and extent of the ABB population he would have been creamed.

Kerry in 2008? Sure, if he can run unopposed. Otherwise we sort of have to try and nominate someone who can win.

First requirement? Can't work in Washington or be part of the DLC

[greatauntoftriplets]

59. Well said.

And nicely phrased.

[Senior citizen]

13. No love here.

I got suckered by DU's deification of Kerry and vilification of Nader.

Kerry doesn't give a damn about voting rights, and apparently never did.

Nader does, and always has.

I suppose all the paid Democratic political operatives on DU will now start their knee-jerk rants of obscenity and character assassination towards Nader, as usual.

For pukes it seems to be, "our country, right or wrong," and for Democrats it is, "our candidate, right or wrong."

Now, Barbara Boxer--THERE'S a Democrat I can support. I'm looking forward to voting for Boxer for President.

The top ten reasons Senator Barbara Boxer (D)CA, should be the next Democratic candidate for President:

10. Boxer is staunchly pro-choice.

9. Boxer is both a Democrat and a democrat.

8. Boxer can carry all blue states.

7. Boxer has an excellent voting record.

6. Boxer listens to and responds to constituents.

5. Boxer is a good fundraiser.

4. Boxer is photogenic.

3. Boxer is well-spoken.

2. Boxer is fiscally responsible.

And the number one reason Barbara Boxer should be President:

Out of a hundred senators, Barbara Boxer turned out to be the only one with balls.

Apart from Barbara Boxer, the Congressional Black Caucus, and the 11 other liberal representatives who voted with them, the Democratic Party has told voters to fuck themselves, and would deserve nothing more than a "same to you, buddy," in return. The Democratic leadership wants our money, but doesn't give a damn about our votes.

It may walk like a liberal and talk like a liberal, but if it doesn't vote like a liberal, it ain't a liberal.

[dkofos]

39. I agree

Boxer / Jones 08

:bounce:

[roenyc]

189. The cons unfortunately have turned liberal into a 4 letter word

and during the campaign i was hoping that Kerry would just say "so what is wrong with being a liberal?" "and this coming from a conservative who managed to outspend every democrat who ever held office." you know something like that.

every time they attacked liberals i sat in front of my TV thinking, hell i am a nice person! what the heck! Kerry stick up for me! and none of them did.

so the neo-shits kept a negative view of liberals and they really didn't even know why. terrible way to run a campaign. they use teddy Kennedy as an example only because most mid west republicans hate know his name and hate him for some reason. This is what our party needs to learn how to do. We need to own our people and say teddy is a good man and being liberal is a good thing.

[European Socialist]

14. Kerry

What gets me is that he didn't have to jump in Sore Loserman with both feet or be silent. Just by speaking out about the true injustices, he could have made the repukes pay a much higher price for their crimes.

[marcologico]

62. Maybe he did. How would we know?

If it took Newseek two months to report a Nov. 11 interview, what else are they not reporting? Kerry doesn't own the media so he has to settle for what they hand him, just like us.

[meti57b]

15. I believe Kerry lost when he failed to reply to the "swift boat" thing.

We need someone who is an excellent campaigner. Our candidate has to be able to *get* the job of president before he can do the job.

[Peace Patriot]

55. meti57b: "I believe Kerry lost when..." Kerry didn't lose!

Please get this through your head. Kerry WON by somewhere between 51% and 55% of the vote. It may be true that he needed a total blowout (10% to 20% margin) to overcome the Bush "Pioneers" and their secret, proprietary source code for ALL vote tabulation, and their "no paper trail," and, in that sense, maybe Kerry "lost." But I don't think it was the Swiftboat Liars. I think Americans saw through that one, despite all the press. I think it (that Kerry didn't get 10%-20% cushion) was the war--Kerry's lack of firmness, lack of principle, failure to oppose. (According to recent polls, nearly 60% of Americans STILL oppose the war, and give Bush a miserable 48% approval rating...now, TODAY! Bush's true vote?: 48%!).

But it's probably a waste of time to speculate on "why Kerry lost" with BushCons behind the curtain, with insecure, unreliable, hackable machines and secret source code. They could have stolen a 20% blowout, and still the press wouldn't notice, and most of the Democratic leaders wouldn't care.

Go figure.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

60. Kerry missed an opportunity

Kerry missed an opportunity when he did not take the swiftboat liars on. He would have shown that he would stand up and fight for himself, and thus earn respect from those who doubted his resolve. I supported Kerry from the dark days of '03 on, but he really needed to stand up to the swifties. They succeeded in planting doubts in many American minds about not only Kerry's past, but also doubts about his resolve in the present day. Ironic, considering his real heroism in Vietnam and at home, but the perception that the right succeeded in selling to many was that of a waffle-boy. Kerry should have seen it coming, considering what was done in '88 to Dukakis.

[marcologico]

89. I still haven't figured that one out. n/t

[meti57b]

95. So, not responding to the swiftboat attacks was just a brilliant

campaign strategy of some sort, by Kerry? The same dumb half of the electorate that believes Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 just "saw right through" the swiftboat attacks against Kerry?

There are events that we can control and events that we cannot control, and republican fraud may just be something we may not be able to control by the next election. For 2008, we need a candidate who is willing to run a full court press throughout the entire campaign and in the months after he wins until he is inaugurated. That is something that *can* be done and that would go a long way towards winning. If Kerry had done this, he might just possibly have pulled off 2004.

Perhaps you would want to get that through your head before you start telling me what to get through my head.

[bunny planet]

117. You apparently never read the article that revealed that Kerry was furious

with his advisors for restraining him from going after the Swifties with both guns blazing. His ex-wife Julia Thorne was about to hold a news conference blasting the SBV and the DNC persuaded her to wait. She had the story about just what torture, physically and mentally, that Kerry went through when he got back from Vietnam. He made a bad choice in picking advisors and should not have gone along with their game plan. It is the only thing I can fault him for. He should have known that listening to them was a foolish thing to do, look what it did for Gore in 2000 campaign when they 'advised' him to distance himself from Clinton.

BTW, he did 'get' the job of President, it was stolen from him, and in a way that couldn't be proven.....yet.

[meti57b]

157. yes, I did read that article and I like to pretend I didn't read it. ...

Even much much worse that not refuting the attack ... is that he did not immediately override the advice he was given. He knew that advice was wrong and he went along with it anyway. How stupid and idiotic is that?!

I could go on about what doing something like says about one's management ability but I'll stop here.

... and "restraining" him??? What did his so-called "advisors" do,... bound and gag him, and lock him in a closet for a month?!


If he wins the 2008 primary, I'll do campaign work four days a week and contribute substantially to his campaign again, just like I did in 2004... which I suppose adds to why I am so griped about his campaign.

[bunny planet]

159. Humans make mistakes and have regrets unlike *. Seems to me Kerry bounced

back considerably well when he trounced His Fraudulency in all three debates. If his mistake was being an honorable person rather than being the dirty sh*thead that * is, then I can withhold judgement. He came back from being down and out after SBV got done with him and guess what, he really won. Problem is we have to prove it. Eventually we will. (Yes, I'm one of the closet optimists around here).

So easy to second guess and criticize someone you don't know at all. I look at the man's records and achievments and 'listen to my gut'

[bunny planet]

162. Thank you for all the hard work you did on JK's campaign. It must have

been very disappointing to you when he didn't fight back against the Swifties. Believe me, I wish with all of my heart that he had too. I was away for those three weeks that the SBV were most virulently going after him. I wish I had been home. I was dodging hurricanes in Florida (almost got creamed by Charlie). If I'd been not otherwise occupied I would have written and called his campaign people everyday with my two cents and gotten others to do so as well. We could have done one of those 48 hr. crisis management things and perhaps convinced him to blast the SBV regardless of what his stupid advisors said.

[mattclearing]

16. He exposed W for the stammering retard boy he is in the debates.

And for that, I will always love and respect John Kerry.

[zalinda]

17. I was pissed at him

until I started to calm down and really think about what has and will happen. The man had an impossible job of trying to unseat Bush. He was up against an incumbent, a war president, the Saddam 9/11 myth, right wing radio blasting Kerry any chance they got, a party that would do ANYTHING to get their guy elected, plus a press that kowtowed to the Bush machine. I don't think he could have worked any harder. I know I couldn't have done physically or emotionally what he has done. They knew it was going to be all but impossible when they went into this, but they had to try. The only way we could have won is if the vote was a land slide, and we almost got there. The biggest blow was when he conceded so fast. But we know that a lot of fraud work would not have been done if he had stood up to protest. Maybe this was the way it was supposed to work. Try for the win, but if you can't win, make the win more attainable in the future. We will get election reform. And the dems are learning to frame things better. Bush will go down.......he'll go down in history as a President who was "elected" under clouds of suspicion, and if we plan it right, he'll join Nixon in the halls of infamy.

Dems ARE different than the repubs. We want things fair and done right. We also are fractured, because we are thinkers. We have our own minds and don't lock step into a party line. This is where the repubs have the advantage, their members drink the kool-aid, no matter if they disagree with 99% of what their candidate stands for. We must stick together. We do need to let our dem leaders know what we want.

And as for Kerry, I would vote for him again. So far, this whole thing has played out to our advantage. The repubs looked foolish Thursday and we were outstanding. The framing couldn't have been better. This is a game and when you are playing with people who cheat you have to be better than them, and I think Kerry played it well. I know that we don't understand and we are impatient with the Washington postures, but Kerry knows it and has played it for years. Kerry gave us our shot at true election reform, which is more than we've had for years. If we can get that passed and get liberal radio more main stream, we have a really good shot at taking back the house and the senate.

Don't be Americans! Americans tend to plan for the next day instead of the next decade and beyond. We see this all the time, especially in business and politics. This is why we've gotten in trouble. We're an older and wiser country now, we know what can happen when we snooze. From now on we have to have pay attention to what is going on and stop it from ever getting this far again.

And for all of this, I thank Kerry and Edwards. They went out there and worked harder than ANY politician I have ever seen. They knew their chances of winning were slim, but gave it all they had. Let's give them another couple of years, and see how this plays out before we condemn them, or just Kerry.

zalinda

[SharonRB]

86. Great post, Zalinda

I've gone back and forth on whether I'd vote for him in the primary next time, but I guess it really depends on who else is running. For example, if one of the candidates is Barbara Boxer, I'm pretty sure she's got my vote. If Kerry wins the nomination, I will vote for him again. I really do understand why he left the country during this whole thing. We could't overturn the election, and it had to be not about him, but about election reform, disenfranchisement, etc. -- all of the messages our senators and representives raised in their speeches (whether they voted nay or yea). Had he been here, it would have looked even more like being a sore loser and the whole focus of the day would have been very different.

A lot can happen in the next few years, and we just have to bide our time and wait it out, as much as we'd like it all to happen quickly. I'm still holding out hope that after the investigations and lawsuits are completed, the fraud will be proven and widely known and people will see the Repukes for what they are. Shrub hopefully will not complete his term -- I know what we'll wind up with won't be any better (but couldn't possibly be worse) -- and it will all come tumbling down around him. It won't be pretty for a while, but the truth has to come out sometime and the perpetrators have to pay for what they did. Blackwell needs to go to prison for a long time for the fraud, corruption and utter disdain for the law he has shown.

[ginnyinWI]

18. Why we should still believe in John Kerry

He was the best Dem to run, and we knew it--we chose him to run for president, out of ten Dem contenders for the nomination. He had the intelligence, experience, and patriotism to become a great president, and we knew it. His speech at the convention was inspiring. He demolished Bush in all three debates. He worked his heart out day after day after day on the campaign trail, not for his own glory but because he wanted to make America better.
He well knows what the Bush administration is doing to this country. He has fought against corruption in government and big money his whole career.
I believe in John Kerry because I see his sincerity, above all. He is not in this for himself. When he says he's got our backs, I believe him--that he will keep on fighting tirelessly for what is right. He's no coward. If he were a coward, he would have called it quits when, in the early 70s people were throwing rocks through his windows and narrowly missing his baby daughter's head. People should not judge a man when they don't know the facts.

I believe that in a fair election he would have won in a landslide. We had voter suppression and probably worse, and I hope it all comes to light eventually.
The things he stands for are the things the majority of Americans stand for. He was smeared by the other side, and the media either did nothing or actually helped in the smearing. How do you get your message out when the media doesn't want you to? Newsweek is a perfect example; they are portraying him now as a whining loser.
People who saw him in person loved him. And sure, his campaign managers could have been more on-message. They should have presented one theme, and one theme only, over and over again: "John Kerry is a Fighter" because he certainly is!

[Bubblie]

53. I agree with you...

We need to see how this plays out over the next several months. We don't have all the pieces to the puzzle quite yet. I don't see why he would bust his butt on the campaign trail for all those months if he didn't want to turn this country around! He is NOT going to just walk away from this and do nothing. These people we are dealing with are evil and will do anything to get things their way. I still believe this will take patience, strategy and intelligence to pull off. I'm not giving up because this country belongs to all of us and we shouldn't let them take it away from us!!! We need to keep up what we are doing her and continue to grow in number. Our voices will keep getting louder and louder and they will no longer be able to shut us up! Just me 2 scents!!

[SharonRB]

88. Welcome to DU, Bubblie

I agree with everything you've said here.

[vinessa4freedom]

19. Boo freakin hoo

All of you who want to complain that Kerry isn't bothering to answer the attacks don't get him at all. He's intelligent, why should he lower himself to mudslinging?

He's above the garbage. Have you seen what he's been doing lately? A bit busy in Iraq to waste his time mouthing off. He doesn't need to fight back. He's busy putting his money where his mouth is, so to speak.

If you want a candidate who will roll up his sleeves and punch his opposition, instead of rolling up his sleeves to get to work, perhaps you should join the republican party.

[Laurab]

25. I still like Kerry

I don't know if it was ever a case of "love", but I haven't lost any respect for him. I've never understood the Kerry "bashing", and I don't think I ever will. I'll never understand what people really wanted him to do.

In addition, I don't believe he's going to let this go. I think he will continue to fight in an intelligent and effective way. I think he would have made a good President, and I believe he was probably elected President. The problem is there is nothing to be done without proof. I'm going to continue to direct my "bashing" toward * and his regime, because they're the ones who have screwed up my country so much.

[vinessa4freedom]

32. thank you Laurab

for getting it. People that take the high road are rare, and John Kerry is one of those people. I don't understand the bashing either, and get incredibly frustrated when people do it.

[Laurab]

51. No, thank YOU

He's NOT the bad guy - I just don't get it. I get frustrated too, and usually try to avoid the bashing threads, but sometimes I have to post in his defense. They're fighting the wrong guy.

[hijinx87]

204. but didn't kerry win the nomination by assuring us that . . .

he was a "a fighter"? "I punch back"? and remember "bring it on"?

the point is that he actually sold himself as a "a candidate who will roll up his sleeves and punch his opposition", but that guy never showed up.

I didn't like the guy in the first place, but I'm even less enamored with him now.

[vinessa4freedom]

207. he trusted people to be intelligent enough

to realize that he meant fighting back with action. He promised from day 1 to run a clean campaign. He promised no mudslinging. He believed the American people didn't want dirty fighting, they were (and I for one am) sick of hearing it.

He is continuing to work, and has already taken action to forward children's health care. He is out there doing the job that he should have been elected to do. He's meeting with foreign leaders, he's talking to troops. That is the best kind of punching back. The whole of the world is watching John Kerry getting it done. You don't have to like him, it doesn't seem to be slowing him down any.

[pick_a_dilly]

21. KERRY???? sounds familiar? who is he???? n/t

never had my back . . .

will never have my vote again.

;-(

[LittleClarkie]

147. I loved you in "50 First Dates." You were the blond, right?

How soon they forget.

[Smirking_Chimp]

22. never loved him, still would be better than *

[davidgmills]

23. I was a Kerry suupporter until

He voted for the war. He voted against the first gulf war which was consistent with his position as an anti-war candidate. But then he voted for this war which smacked of nothing but pure politics.

So I moved to Dean. Kucinich was a hopeless option.

When Dean lost in the primaries, I had no choice but to support Kerry. I am a realist.

I thought he was extremely victimized by the Swift Boat vets, but he made enemies of these guys long ago and the chickens came home to roost. Even I did not realize the absolute enmity between these two groups, and I graduated from college in 1972. But he knew it and should have been prepared for it. I think he got caught flat footed.

However, I thought he was great in the debates. Three wins. Hands down. No contest.

But once again after the election, he lost his spine for a fight. Bad choice. It is custom to concede. Bush should have conceded in 2004, when it became apparent that a recount would prove Gore won, but he didn't. I know Kerry was in a box, down by 150,000 Ohio votes at one time, but still his concession hurt any chances to get any reasonable recount. And he deifinitely should have pushed the exit poll issue. Had he just done that, I might not be so disappointed in him. I hope he is not the candidate in 2008.

[Peace Patriot]

64. Yup, he should have been on the ground in Ohio with the volunteers...

...HIMSELF overseeing and protesting every goddamned slimy Blackwell and BushCon move. I mean this! That's the kind of candidate *I" want. Somebody REAL!

And he should have made BushCons owning and controlling all electronic vote tabulation, and all the electronic voting machines, all with secret, proprietary source code, and with no paper trail, a CAMPAIGN issue! Tom Delay prevented all oversight, all accountability--on Bush's behalf! Why?

And why, why, why weren't the Democrats screaming about this WAY BEFORE the campaign, when it happened?

I'll never understand this. And I don't see how they can ask us to vote for them, and then, when we DO--when we come out in DROVES to the vote for them--NOT defend our right to vote!

There is no subtle strategy (Kerry's or anyone's) that can answer this. IT IS NOT A SUBTLE MATTER!

[AngryAmish]

24. He was the tallest candidate.

That is about the best I can say now.

[katinmn]

36. That's pretty much how I have come to feel

I was one of the hangers on, wanting to believe, but he showed where his allegiance lied on January 6, the day of the Boxer Rebellion.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

110. But Kucinich may have proved to be the bigger man!

[mousie]

26. ~ I still love the man! ~ n/t

[seabeyond]

27. al and dean both say cant charge fraud without proof

i sat in a funny yesterday as people dissed kerry for not challenging the vote more aggressively in the same breath stating dean would have, al is a good dude listen to him. both have said, cant challenge the election for fraud without proof. yet then these people cheering these two on yell and diss kerry for not doing something more.

we need proof. and we are getting it here and there. the thing with something like this, takes time. a lot of time. gonna keep coming out and the case is gonna get stronger. start sending people to jail and you will get more info

two months wasnt enough.

yes i still like kerry

[Straight Shooter]

29. I will always have great respect and admiration for John Kerry

That being said, why oh why did he not come out with at least one strong statement and stay on message about the disenfranchisement of the people of color in this election? I was absolutely furious that it happened, in America, in 2004. What good does it do to claim that all men (and women) are created equal, if we do not all have an equal opportunity to vote? We are sliding backward into the abyss of racism. How can people of color expect a level playing field in education and careers when they are blockaded at the most fundamental level of citizenship?

Secondly, I know Kerry relied too heavily on advisors and not on his own instincts in the campaign. Deep down, Kerry is a fighter. Left to his own devices, he would have pummeled bush, there's no question.

Other than those two grievances, it's just a heartache for me. Nothing but a heartache.

[slackmaster]

30. I'd sit down with Senator Kerry and discuss it over a beer

:beer:

[dkofos]

31. Never was

He was dumped in our laps by the MSM.

[MellowOne]

33. I think Kerry was caught between a rock and a hard place

Whoever ran against Bush would have lost because of the fraud. I think he's keeping a low profile until the fraud is exposed. If he wasn't the candidate, I'm sure he would be the ringleader in the challenge.

I was so proud of him at the presidential debate. He was intelligent and articulate, answered with facts. Bush was an embarrassement, I couldn't believe he was the president of our country. He couldn't put two words together to make a sentence without an "ahh" in the middle of it. But I guess that was "hard work."

[roenyc]

190. I was proud of him after the debate too

i put my Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on my car that day. i live in a republican borough of NYC and i am surrounded by yellow ribbons (code for bush votes) and i felt such pride to be voting for the man with the brain.

the day of the election my daughter who is Puerto Rican had to vote provisional because she had justs moved to Staten island from the south Bronx.

she encountered a witch at the polling place in Staten Island who told her "thats not possible, sorry cant do that" - no you dont do that in NYC. not to a Puerto Rican from the Bronx. my daughter told her "I know my rights, i can vote provisional, i live here and i want a ballot, now". the witch still didn't want to cooperate. but a person from i guess the poll watchers they had there came over and said to the witch "she can vote with a paper ballot".

he took my daughter over to the table where they were. and that was that.

when my daughter left she made sure the witch at the table knew she voted. lol

So you can understand why i am a bit pissed about this. it is all over. these people think they are better then us. like another thread that was started "democrats are the new Negro". and hell one Borroughs in NYC that is mostly republican was showing its prejudice right out. if the poll watcher wasn't there my daughter wasn't voting. well she was voting. there would have been a war. trust me.

If this can happen in NYC what the hell is happened in Ohio. what instructions where these people given. or is it just a mindset.

Every local race went to a Republican. one of our races includes south Brooklyn. there were reports that ballots were stolen from the democrat area there, i read this on Indy media. this was the congress seat. neo-con won that race by 68% of vote. it was so upsetting i wanted to barf. he is a horror, day before the election he sent out flyer's with photos of the 9/11 hijackers saying his opponent would not give them the death penalty. a lie, but he was losing in the polls. but thats life i guess.

[Sydnie]

38. Thank you zalinda, ginnyinWI, and vinessa4freedom

You get it! So many of us just don't seem to get the big picture.

So many of us are thinking about how hurt we are rather than how much we have accomplished. Kerry has not backed down, he hasn't lost his backbone, he hasn't abandoned us... He has set about doing the investigative work that needs to be done to take * down from the inside rather than the outside. He is in Iraq doing the work on the ground that will put him in a postition to speak about the war with authority rather than monday morning quarterbacking a game he was never part of. He is gathering evidence and formulating his next move as we speak. Why, just yesterday, * announced that he was sending someone over to Iraq to gather first hand info on what is happening and what needs to be done. Think he would have made that move without the pressure of Kerry being there FIRST? If he hadn't up until now, my money would be on answering that question with a resounding NO!

Kerry did make * show just who he was in that first debate. The fact that they taught their monkey some new tricks for the next two is proof of that.

* is intimidated by Kerry on so many levels it's funny! Even after stealing the election, Kerry still gets under his skin. * was always the "life of the party" but Kerry was always the smarter of the two and * knows it. For those of us that think, Kerry was and will be again, the best of the litter of candidates available. He has already been through the grist mill in the press. What could they possibly dredge up that hasn't already been discussed, other than the work he will complete in the next 3 years? If he keeps the positive pressure on this administration, it can lead to positive things for all of us.

Kerry is like a silent killer ... you never know when he will strike but you know he is out there waiting and watching and gathering info. Yes, he may not be reacting the way you want him to right now, but give him some time ... he will make you proud yet.

I am from Mass -- I have seen it more than once myself. And it is a thing of beauty!

[vinessa4freedom]

43. he makes me proud already

and you're right about the pressure on the Iraq deal. He's going to keep the pressure on in every issue. He knows that you only get temporary results with lip service. The real victories are from doing the work. And my God, is he doing it.

Thank you for the excellent post!

[madison2000]

44. and thank you Sydnie

I still believe in him too.

[SharonRB]

91. Thanks, Sydnie

It helps to have the perspective of someone from his home state. I still like him a lot and have great respect for him. I think he did what he had to do and is still working behind the scenes, doing things none of us knows about. I still think he'll make us proud some day, when the time is right.

[Peace Patriot]

111. Sydnie: From the inside of what?

"He has set about doing the investigative work that needs to be done to take * down from the inside rather than the outside."--Sydnie

Sydnie, I hope you are right. I really do. In fact, I had a dream hit on Kerry myself ("The Rattlesnake"). But sometimes dreams are wrong, and always have to tested against reality for their meaning.

Inside/outside. Our democracy has no "inside" any more. BushCons control the presidency, the Congress, the courts, federal law enforcement, the intelligence apparatus, the military, the media AND the election system. (Germany 1934.)

WHO is going to prosecute BushCons for election fraud or for anything else? The House Dems couldn't even get a proper hearing (no subpoena power) on Ohio, with the most egregious and blatant violations of the Voting Rights Act since the poll tax laws in the south in the 1960s.

The BushCons DON'T CARE about scandal. They own the media (and nuked CBS to make it 100% Iron Curtain control).

They DON'T CARE about prosecutions. They own the courts.

They DON'T CARE about elections. They've stolen two with complete impunity (and probably parts of '02 as well, in a test run of electronic voting, and to get rid of Max Cleland). They can manufacture votes out of thin air, with impunity in the press and even with the Democrats. Who is calling them on it? Who?

I think Kerry went to Iraq to avoid Jan. 6 and challenging the election--because it's hard and dangerous and politically risky. And maybe also because he has some loyalty and feeling for soldiers.

Also, what is at issue here is PUBLIC MATTER, in which all voters and all Americans are interested parties. The BushCons have stolen 2 1/2 elections! They are leading the country to ruin with NO "consent of the people." This is a matter of critical public concern, and since our leaders can't seem to solve it, we, the people must do so!

It cannot and will not be solved by "insider" maneuvering. It MUST be aired, and aired NOW, to inform and alert people, so that they can get back their right to vote--which Congress is NOT going to do! (The BushCon Congress is going to restore our right to vote? Come on.) It's got to be done locally, state by state.

We've had enough goddamned "insider" crap in this country. Really. It may be true that that's what Kerry is up to. So what? So we get a better Emperor some day?

Again, I hope you're right--that Kerry is not a coward, and not oblivious to what has gone down here (LOSS of our democracy!)--and will open this matter up, and help us get our democracy back. I just don't see any evidence for it. And it just sounds too much like all those hopeful people who thought he had a secret strategy for Jan. 6.

If we wait upon "secret strategies," the BushCons will lock up our rights over the election system (state rules), and that will be that.

[Sydnie]

126. We outsiders don't have access to the info that they do

Just for one example. There are ways, when you are on the inside, to begin to garner support and evidence. You have to know who will "spill the beans" and when to approach them to get it.

Congress is no different. There are stories to be told and heard. But, if we don't have anyone that can get to the meat of the matter, then what good does it do us at all?

Things take time people. I don't think Kerry's strategy is so secret. He is in Iraq and that fact alone is already putting pressure on * and his slime. General Luck (not kidding that is his name) will be doing the same junket that Kerry just did in *'s name. That wouldn't have happened if Kerry hadn't done it first.

Kerry just met with the leaders in Jordan and Syria. Syria -- after he blasted them in the end of the campaign for their connection to * and oil. That's not running away. Running away would have been going back to business as usual. He didn't do that. He took the bull by the horns and again made * look like the tyrant that he is.

Look for the good and you will see it. Focus on the negative and you will see that too.

I don't have rose colored glasses. I am like a spider. I can sit and wait for the insects to come to the web. We must be aware, awake and patient. It will happen. WE have the power if we don't waiver.

[shireen]

40. "he was the biggest disappointment ever"

i agree 100%. Except for Boxer and the 31 House, we are represented by a bunch of wimps. If they can give me a reasonable explanation for their actions on Thurs., I'll take it back. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry is finished. When he got the nomination, I felt like we were doomed to lose again but hoped I was wrong. I plan to write my reps to ask why they voted no later. Right now I'm too angry.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. I never loved nor trusted him. I tried real hard to, and just

couldn't.

A dear friend of mine worked tirelessly for him, and to me he was ABB. That he might impose a gentler and kindler form of fascism if he did win.

[Time for change]

45. I disagree with his decision not to visibly contest the election

But still I think that we should recognize his long history of service to our country (was a leader in both the Anti-Viet Nam war effort and the effort to keep us out of the war in Nicaragua, both which took a lot of courage) and give him his due credit for that. Everyone makes mistakes.

[spooked]

46. Pity, most of all there's PITY

n/t

[Time for change]

48. I've written him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x263659

[NVMojo]

49. I totally respect this guy. This election was brutal. Al Gore didn't

face down near the personal attacks like Kerry did. I do not respect his campaign advisors and team, though. I believe Kerry will keep fighting the Bush cabal along with others.

[SaveAmerica]

56. I've crossed over to the 'Never Give Up' camp

It's about America.
Saving it.

[mopinko]

57. paint a target on his back

life is unfair, ladies and gentlemen. you play the cards you are dealt. like many people here, i am downright ashamed of my party. so freakin angry. and i think we need to make an example of some of these spineless collaborators. i think jk should be the poster child for the fate of the vichy dems. i hope someone challenges him for his seat. they will have my money and support. i hope he has something fun to do in his retirement. i say we send him to it.

(ps, i will not be around til later today, so if i piss someone off, please to do not accuse me of flame amd run. i just have things to do.)

[gordianot]

61. I still respect and support John Kerry.

He has much to atone for in not being more vocal on voter fraud. At some point (soon) he will need to become the John Kerry who returned from Vietnam and laid soul to the nation.

[KerryOn]

63. What if John Kerry would have been elected?

My two cents worth.

Remember during the debates, John Kerry was asked what he would do to resolve the situation in Iraq. On more than one occasion he told the country about his plan for Iraq, but he was very carefull to point out that the situation in Iraq could be much worse by January 20th, as everything would still be in Bush's control until then. He had no way of knowing what he would be inheriting in January.

On November 3rd, I told my self that in a way it may be a good thing that Bush stole the election. I say this because I don't think anyone can possibly get us out of the mess that we are now in in Iraq. Not even John Kerry. Bush made the mess, so he gets to clean it up!

From early summer until November, the situation did get much worse in Iraq, and it continues to do so. If Kerry were elected, I can just here the re pugs claiming that John Kerry is unfit and does not know how to deal with the situation in Iraq. They would probably even go as far as blaming it all on Kerry. And just maybe John Kerry new this. Maybe that is why he conceded so fast.

I know that there are many more problems with this country besides Iraq, but that was the main issue for me. It was not Kerry's time, perhaps 2008 will be.

[Peace Patriot]

70. Don't you think it would be unpatriotic to put your career--...

...your potential success or failure as a politician--ahead of trying to get your country out of the disastrous mess it is in, in Iraq and at home?

Kerry could have burned the BushCons to the ground on election fraud, they were so dirty and thieving. He should have risked it--and even if he'd failed to oust them (since they own Congress, the courts, the media, the intelligence apparatus, and the military, as well as the presidency and the election system) (Germany 1934)--such a fight would have informed, alerted and heartened the country, which is now full of uninformed, despairing Kerry voters.

Will they get behind the fight to retrieve our right to vote? Hard to say. But it's going to be a difficult struggle just to get the word out about what happened, let alone rescue our voting system from BushCon control the only way we can do it, LOCALLY, state by state. (Congress ain't gonna be a help--mark my words--the BushCon Congress is a menace.)

And Kerry's thinking about his "future"? Kids, we don't have a "future." Our democracy is over--unless we get back our right to vote.

[naryaquid]

85. I'm by NO means a Kerry-basher, but I agree with you about

putting your "career" ahead of the good of the country...Hell, if you're a politician the "good of the country" IS your career, or should be...

[KerryOn]

158. Yes I agree that it would be unpatriotic

to put your career ahead of the country, but who is to say that is what has been done.

If John Kerry would have been elected, what would have been the outcome in Iraq?

Only time will tell about Iraq, but as I said before we are in such deep shit over there, I don't think any president can fix it. I think it will be near impossible to come out of it without further damage and discredit to or country.

Bush can't run for president again, unless he gets the constitution changed, and he will go down as the worst president in our history. If Kerry would have been elected president, and if my hunch is correct about him not being able to straighten out the mess in Iraq, then what would be his chances of reelection in 2008?

His chances would probably be slim to none, and then a republican would probably be back in office for 2008. Everyone would be screaming about the Dem's not knowing how to fight a war. I would like to see the Democrats in there for four years, and if Kerry would have been elected this time, I think it would have be for only one term.

Yes, you have raised an interesting point, but it would be hard to judge if this is what has happened.

[righteous1]

67. I am a Dean supporter and even though I voted for JK I was

not happy doing it. But I won't say I told you so, that would be a hollow win

[BlueInRed]

81. Agree, but I will

say "I told you so." Everything Kerry has done in this campaign and post-campaign is exactly as I predicted to my friends who were pro-Kerry (but mainly ABB) in the primaries and who were also anti-Clark and anti-Dean. I think that several of the other candidates (at least 3 and possibly 4) would have handled the campaign, vote fraud and post-election mess better.

That doesn't mean I don't respect Kerry's performance in the debates and think he would have been better than Bush. It does mean I think we had much better candidate choices and also that Kerry's post election performance and treatment of the voting fraud issues was completely predicatable and in line with his behavior in Congress from 2000 - 2004 (when I was paying attention). There was nothing Kerry did in the last four years that led me to believe in the primaries that he would be a scrappy, fiery, effective campaigner. The Kerry of the Vietnam war era I might have felt differently about. But we were not fielding that candidate; we were fielding the Kerry of today.

I tried not to post on this until all the chips were in -- and we saw what Kerry actually did post-election about vote fraud. But sadly, I and others were proven right. Yeah Kerry would have been a thousand times better than Bush, but he wasn't the best choice we had and he performed exactly as I expected, which was fine, but not great.

We needed more (ie, personality plus scrappiness plus thoughfulness plus experience) to end up in the White House if we were going to overcome the entirely predictable vote fraud Rove and the Republicans had planned. IMO, of course.

[Davis_X_Machina]

68. WTF? he just ran away?

Enoch Dunlap

How many times, during the twenty years
I was your leader, friends of Spoon River,
Did you neglect the convention and caucus,
And leave the burden on my hands
Of guarding and saving the people's cause? --
Sometimes because you were ill;
Or your grandmother was ill;
Or you drank too much and fell asleep;
Or else you said: "He is our leader,
All will be well; he fights for us;
We have nothing to do but follow. "
But oh, how you cursed me when I fell,
And cursed me, saying I had betrayed you,
In leaving the caucus room for a moment,
When the people's enemies, there assembled,
Waited and watched for a chance to destroy
The Sacred Rights of the People.
You common rabble! I left the caucus
To go to the urinal.

Edgar Lee Masters, The Spoon River Anthology

[Sydnie]

69. That is priceless!!! Good post! n/t

[seito]

77. Perfect n/t

[KittyWampus]

80. Wow! Now I Have To Go To The Library

Thanks! :)

[Peace Patriot]

118. Davis_X_Machina: Fair enough!

Maybe that's the lesson. We are indeed sleepy, lazy citizens. Not all of us. I really can't lay that one on myself--nor on others I know who have been vigilant--but why so ineffective? should be asked (of ourselves and others).

Of my various citizen fights over the last 30 years, I think maybe I underestimated the power of corporations and the rich, got onto to NAFTA, et al, too late, after Clinton had signed it (by '99, I was protesting in Seattle, but others had cried the alarm much earlier), and, most of all, did nothing about the "military-industrial complex" (after Vietnam), when activists I know never gave up on the fight, and kept crying the alarm about it (and doing their best to highlight it), and it WAS that, finally, that did us in. Our military might was just too much of a temptation to the BushCons who have been plotting to get control of it for several decades. We got lulled by Clinton who was not particularly militaristic (and who kept a lid on some CIA excesses--the thrust was financial domination, not brute domination, in most instances).

I should have been out there with them, pouring blood on missile heads and going to jail--and then feeding the poor when I got out. (I'm thinking of the Catholic Workers--those right on people!). We all should have been. We have ALL benefited from US military might, in one way or another--the might that controls the wealth that trickles down to us--or once did.

Now we are paying for it--for not seeing straight enough--in bloodshed and ruin, and loss of our democracy.

[Patsy Stone]

168. Thank you!

cause this is a sad thread which could use some good thoughts. :)

[New Earth]

71. i am definately disappointed in him

i don't hate him though. i honestly need some time not talking about him for a while. i know how i feel will settle down and i won't feel so frustrated.
his last chance for me is for him to spend the next 4 years taking down the Bush administration. If he doesn't do that, then.....i'll save those words when and if it does or doesn't happen.

[RevCheesehead]

72. I've not written him, but I've not written him off, either.

Is there still love for Kerry?

ABSOLUTELY! :loveya:

How could anyone not love this?

[seito]

78. Alright,now you did it

:loveya: :loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya:

[RevCheesehead]

120. This one could use some floaty-hearts, too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=268574&mesg_id=269080

[bunny planet]

102. omg, you posted the pool pic.

I am smitten once more.
:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

Now this man IS the real deal.

[HollyC]

73. Kerry is a pissant

Move on asap.

[Farmgirl]

74. Personally I still (and always will) respect and admire this human

We all have foibles. John Forbes Kerry is a man with such honor, dignity and respect. What more can you ask from a person? Am I angry? Yes. Am I disheartened? Yes. Am I frustrated? Yes. Am I disappointed? Yes. My guess is that he is too.

It is all too easy for all of us to be back seat drivers in this process and second guess what Senator Kerry should or should not be doing. Of course we would like to see overt fighting for his and our votes. Of course we would have liked to seen more Senators stand up on January 6th.

But -- I will never lose my respect for this man. He has courage and conviction. He has honor. He has a determined sense of place and purpose, and a feeling of what is "right".

We can all mourn for what might have been, or for what "should have been". But, onward we trudge and we must continue to support the good causes that Senator Kerry will be fighting for.

[seito]

75. I support John Kerry

I am not going to fault the victim. We got screwed. He got screwed. Everybody is so quick to blame somebody. How about starting with the criminals?

John Kerry took the only course that would allow our cause to have any long term viability. The fraud investigation must continue and it must focus on the fraud.

As I watched the congressional debate on the 6th, I was amazed at how the Republicans tried to spin it into a sore loser scenario. They tried and they failed because the Democrats controlled it. The distinction between right and wrong could not have been more obvious.

John Kerry has already stated that he is going to fight for real election reform. But when he does, the argument will be that he is just running for 2008. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I believe in John Kerry. He would have made one of the greatest Presidents of our lifetime. Reform is going to take time. I refuse to condemn a man based on what I believe he did or did not do in an investigation that is far from concluded. As I have said before, history will judge John Kerry. It will also judge us. I hope that it shines a favorable light on both.

[Blue_In_AK]

90. Seito, once again I agree with you totally

John Kerry would have been one of the finest presidents this country ever had, which makes the actions of the ** people even more reprehensible. He was robbed, plain and simple. Nothing he could have done at any stage of the game here would have made a bit of difference.

[fooj]

76. I noticed he is meeting with MANY top officials overseas...

find that somewhat curious...I guess I haven't given up on him, either. I just have to trust he knows what he is doing...

[brainshrub]

79. Kerry is a flip-flopping wanker.

And those are his positive qualities.

[Vektor]

194. Actually, I have heard some stories about the quality of his wanker, too.

VERY POSITIVE INDEED.

[GetTheRightVote]

82. I can not stand the man, he is spineless dupe, never vote him again

It was a complete waste of my vote, even though it was stolen as well I am sure. We can not longer back these political leaders who do not do their job by backing us. Jesse J. & David Cobb are starting a coalition which will be my new stumping grounds, keep up to date on their web sites. The Dems dumped us and anyone who does not see that is not living in the real world.

:mad: & :grr:

[mirandapriestly]

84. I still love kerry

I am glad that what happened to gore did not happen to him. why should he have to be a one man crusade against election fraud? Shouldn't he have the right to expect a fair campaign? He would have changed things no more than Gore. Believe me this evil administration had(has) a plan to destroy Kerry if he tried to fight the bogus election.

[Blue_In_AK]

87. I will always respect and admire John Kerry

He is a man of integrity and, from what I've witnessed, a man of the people. NO DEMOCRAT could have beaten ** this time around. The election was fraudulent through and through. Many people here have complained about Kerry's lack of "charisma" or "warmth" or whatever. For me, charisma doesn't win out over intelligence, thoughtfulness, and strategy. I still am firmly of the belief that Kerry will continue to work towards bringing about **'s downfall. I'm sure he has the goods, and, indeed, the political pendulum always swings. We just need to keep the pressure on.

[SharonRB]

94. I totally agree with you Blue_In_AK

I even think he has tons more charisma and warmth in his little finger than * has in his entire body.

[Blue_In_AK]

96. Exactly

Obviously, "charisma" means different things to different people. When I see or hear Kerry, I personally get a smile on my face and a warm feeling in my heart. When I see or hear ** I want to throw up or smash my TV.

[SharonRB]

103. LOL - my sentiments exactly!

[seito]

99. And I agree with you Blue...

You did not even mention the corporate media. It played such a vital role in painting him in the caricature that is so widely shared here at DU.

[Blue_In_AK]

104. Oh, yeah, those guys... n/t

[drummer55]

92. I agree he needs to exit stage left now.

"John Kerry and I have made a promise to the American people that with this election every vote would count and every vote would be counted. Tonight we are keeping our word and we will fight for every vote," Kerry's running mate John Edwards said in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Yet the Kerry concession at around 11 a.m. EST suggested that the Democrats did not believe they had sufficient votes to make a difference in the overall result."


This means Kerry cared about who won and who lost. He did NOT care about the voter. You gentle reader...its all about you. John Kerry did not care about you, me or the disenfranchized. He would only care if it made a difference in the over all result.

Wake up and come to reality. Our so called "leaders" do not truly care about us because they feel they are above us, above our concerns and above our anger. We need to bring ALL of our elected officials back under the peoples power. We continue to consent to be governed without stepping forward and demanding true representation and responsibility from them.

[Blue_In_AK]

97. Oh, please, give it up. n/t

[bunny planet]

100. and you got your information from some unbiased non-corporate progressive

news source I imagine. Thanks for letting us know what's really going on inside that 'flip-floppers' head. <sarcasm>

[drummer55]

109. no....

read it from his own emails and his concession speech and his lawyers.

continue to believe in big brother, they like that. just remember to bleat in unison when they ask it.

[bunny planet]

113. I've read them, just not seeing them the same way you do.

No big brother in sight. Have you even read 1984?
Regardless, your rudeness earns you the snooze button.

:hi: and

Buh-bye!

[RevCheesehead]

134. Oh, bunny!

LOL - May I call you "Thumper?"

"you're no bunny till some bunny thumps you."

[bunny planet]

137. That's so funny. That is the title of one of my paintings, almost.

'You're No Bunny Till Some Bunny Loves You'

Sure you can call me Thumper Rev.

[drummer55]

146. not sure how I was rude but to each their own.

[Sydnie]

101. Then you didn't know your candidate

John Kerry has NEVER -- let me repeat NEVER forgotten about anyone he has represented. That includes every voter that went to the polls and voted for him this time around as well.

Get to know your next candidate better, would be my suggestion to you. Then get to know your opposition even better than that. You will see the difference then. And maybe, just maybe, the need for "candidate bloodletting" won't be so strong next time.

And please, if you don't support the candidate next time, don't hold your nose and vote for him. It would serve you better to stay home and complain without wasting the time waiting in line, know what I mean?

Life is full of disappointments. What you do with that disappointment determines who you eventually become. In other words -- "You become what you look at most." I prefer to become hopeful and supportive, even if I support someone that "didn't win".

Sheesh!

[drummer55]

114. Please explain

how he has never forgotten about anyone he has represented.

"John Kerry and I have made a promise to the American people that with this election every vote would count and every vote would be counted. Tonight we are keeping our word and we will fight for every vote," Kerry's running mate John Edwards said in the early hours of Wednesday morning.


Please explain how he is fighting to make every vote count and fighting for every vote?

Cobb yes
Badnerick yes
Alliance for Democracy Yes
Nader yes
BBV yes
C.A.S.E yes

Kerry/Edwards campaign? MIA

Words are cheap, cheap, cheap.... actions are what matter.

[earth mom]

116. Exactly-Actions speak louder than words. n/t

[Sydnie]

123. let me ask you one question drummer

Is this the first campaign you have ever worked on? Or did you work on national campaigns during the Clinton years? Have you never lost a campaign before? Have you never had the experience of having to defend your candidate and his position even after the cameras have gone away and the confetti lies around you on the floor?

I can tell you from experience. I have worked on campaigns for many years, both national and local. I have even run for office a time or two myself -- having both won and lost at different times. I know what a campaign is all about. Thus, I know my candidate.

I have worked on Kerry campaigns for years. Been a delegate at my states convention several times as well. I know the players (at least locally - personally) and I know just what they are capable of.

If you knew anything about Kerry, you would know that one campaign is not the be all - end all of his world. He has lost before and it merely servered as a call to work harder and do better next time.

He was a Senator that thought more about investigating the illegal endeavors of the government that he was a member of then he did about grandstanding with some of his colleagues. As a prosecutor, he was relentless and never lost a case. He didn't take it on if he couldn't prove it to a jury. That would have been a waste of the taxpayers money and his time.

I might not have always agreed with every "political" decision that he has made in the 20 odd years I have campaigned for him, but as a man, his principals are above reproach. He is a seasoned, educated leader and knows when he can prove his case and when he needs to do more homework before bring charges.

I know, you're angry because you think he is ignoring you, the work you did and the crisis that we are now in. You have to have faith in the man, drummer, or not support him in the first place, because I assure you, that is the very thing he has been showing us all how to do... to have faith in ourselves. What you are doing right now is second guessing your judgement as much as you are his, you know that right?

Just because he didn't "scream fraud from the rooftops" does not mean that he doesn't see it and is working to correct it FOR all of those that placed their faith in him.

Very short sited to think otherwise. Everyone involved has a "position" that is their "job" to champion. Dean had/has his -- to energize the democratic base. Jesse Jackson (who didn't win his previous campaign for that office btw) has the job of being the "bullseye voice" for the movement. Boxer and Tubbs-Jones have/had the job of making it a matter of record to further the cause. Each has their place, drummer, and each are doing their job. Backbiting and second guessing it now has no place in the movement. We must realize what has happened, regroup and keep fighting. Hopefully, a little less with each other and a little more with the "enemy".

Do your homework and get to know the historic behavior of your candidate -- especially the part that never gets national news coverage. You'd be amazed at just who our candidate really was!

[drummer55]

142. thank you for your answer

I appreciate it.

[LittleClarkie]

149. Most of the country apparently didn't believe in the fraud

Including many Dems. I was tempted to say most, but I don't have a poll to back that up except the 70% someone quoted earlier.

We were in the minority. So, who was he representing -- us or the ones who wanted to move on? Are those other peoples opinions invalid?

[bunny planet]

98. Kerry has always been damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't w/

some people.

I personally love the man and trust that he did not 'run away' from anything, he never has, never will.

I am also looking forward to a truthful account of what is going on in Iraq when he gets back.

I will write him to thank him for caring about our soldiers enough to travel there in a dangerous time to visit them.

Look for big sparks in the Senate when he gets back too. He's going to make it mighty uncomfortable for the Repigblicons when he's on the floor.

[pacalo]

179. Damn straight, bunny planet!

I agree with every word you said. I'm very anxious to hear about his trip to Iraq to visit his "brothers".



And never forget that this man is a winner.

[yurbud]

107. Vietnam, BCCI, Iran-Contra....

I can't believe that the guy who stood up against Vietnam, investigated BCCI and Iran-Contra ran away or doesn't have a game plan to take these guys down.

He's playing the long game and getting his ducks in a row.

Let's hope the GOP doesn't shotgun the ducks before he's done.

[earth mom]

112. The love I had for Kerry is gone

he will have to do a helluva LOT to redeem himself and win me back. And I'm talking white knight on a horse here.

My gut is never wrong and seeing any pictures of him now truly breaks my heart. Because I believed in him totally.

I gave him every benefit of the doubt the past 2 months, and when he did NOT do one solid thing to fight on the 6th, that's when he lost me.

Do you not fight if someone tries to take something away from you unjustly?! Do you not fight if someone steals your credit or your car or your kid?! Do you just sit there and do NOTHING?! I think NOT! Kerrys half hearted actions speak volumes. Just as the senators words mean nothing without the "yes" vote. All they did was put on a little show for the activists who had called and wrote. If MSM had been there on the 6th you bet your sweet bippy it would have been a different senario. I mean seriously, who watches cspan? Certainly not the majority of the population.

You can say all day that Kerry had the cards stacked against him yada yada yada. BUT. In the 11th hour, he should have been there, he should have fought the ugly nasty mud slinging fight in the MSM if necessary.

Sorry, but for something this God Damn important you just DO NOT go down without a fight. You do whatever it takes to win.

[IndyPriest]

115. Still love him? Sure. But he ain't the only

pebble on the beach. WE'RE on the beach, too! What's that old metaphor for the geese formation? If the lead goose gets tired or loses the way, another flies in to take the lead. Something like that. The simple point: this is not a one-person show. (And puh-leeze, let's not go to the other half of the goose analogy, i.e, that if the lead goose leads the group astray, the rest will take it down and peck it to death!)

[Peace Patriot]

125. Goose circular firing squad...

Yeah, I think I agree with this (not sure I get it entirely). We shouldn't just shoot people down because they failed us in some way. BUT, we DO need to evaluate what happened, understand it, figure out who are allies are, and act.

So far, the ONLY thing that moves me--based on everything I've reviewed and know about this election (and that is one hell of a lot, if I do say so myself)--is the critical need to ACT NOW, locally, state by state, to recover our right to vote.

Kerry has been ZERO help on that--on informing and mobilizing people. In fact, he's been a positive drag on it. The only thing he's done that is helpful is to NOT doing something (not asking Boxer not to sign--so far as I know, anyway).

And Kerry and the Dem leadership were extremely derelict in their duty by allowing BushCons to get control of the voting system. It is NOT "kill the candidate" to acknowledge that. It is a fact. And we have to ask: What good is he--and what good are they--in getting back our right to vote, when THEY let it be taken away?

And they did the same thing on the war. They GAVE AWAY the Congress' Constitutional authority over declaring war. Gave it away!

Can we rely on these people to get back our right to vote? NO!

We need to know that!

[IndyPriest]

138. All true. My only point is that we take the good where we

find it, and keep moving forward. I think we tend to get into mood swings that are not really useful in moving forward.

To use a lame sports analogy, I think the point is to keep moving the ball down the field. It's very good to review the tape after the game to find errors. But find them, and then develop new strategy. If Kerry wants to help, fine. If not, we'll find another way to cook this goose!

That goose flight formation thing is an old "leadership training" analogy for how teams work. Supposedly, when the lead goose gets pooped, the flock senses it, and another moves in for relief. The second half of the analogy (which is not as much referred to) is that if the flock senses danger from the work of the lead goose, it will not only replace it but drive it to the ground and peck it to death. It's that second part that seems useless to me. I'm not sayng YOU'RE doing that, peacepatriot. But I think there's a tendency in the flock to do that. Find a hero, get let down by the hero, shoot the hero, find a hero...

[MoonRiver]

122. NO. But I never "loved" him. I just thought he could win.

He did win, but wouldn't fight for our votes. Now, as far as I'm considered, he's political history.

[Peace Patriot]

131. The trouble with the Democrats (and don't tell me I can't say this...

...I've been a loyal Democratic voter for 44 years and have worked on many campaigns) is that they take our energy, our committment, our time, our money, our blood--and our passionate commitment as real citizens and progressives--and they suck it all up to the top, and then compromise it all over the place, even when they don't need to!

This top down model in the Dem party has led us straight off the cliff of a fascist coup.

We need to understand that, and deal with it.

[MoonRiver]

154. I hear ya, and totally agree.

I'll tell you this though. The Dems cannot count on me anymore. I'm voting for the candidate who speaks for me, regardless of whether he/she is a Dem, Green, or Purple People Eater. I compromised with Kerry, due to his horrible IWR vote. But that won't happen twice. I was first and foremost, and still am a Clarkie. But after Clark dropped out I supported Kerry over Dean. That was a huge mistake (not that I could have influenced anything, it just would make me feel better now to have supported the more honorable candidate). Anyway, January 6th represented a sea change in my political philosophy. Granted I was moving in this direction after Selection II and Kerry's cop out, but my mind set is now solidified.

[HollyC]

124. KERRY SAT, BOXER STOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[New Earth]

139. no

kerry visited soldiers in Iraq while Boxer stood.

[HollyC]

161. Enough Kerrymandering

Boxer Stood, Kerry Stood Down

Kerry needlessly folded within hours on Nov. 3. This was the precise moment many of us forced ourselves to tolerate his deeply flawed nomination in anticipation of- because this was the moment we were led to believe in which he would famously "Fight for us."

Please. Enough Kerrymandering.

[New Earth]

163. pardon?

[HollyC]

165. ?

Absent. Not present. Did not show up. Could not be bothered. Found it politically convenient to be otherwise engaged. Deserted.

[New Earth]

166. k

:hi:

[seito]

180. lol

Faye-"one letter, says it all" :)

[Blue_In_AK]

205. Thank you, Faye

Some people are just so short-sighted.

[pacalo]

129. Of course I "still" love Kerry!

Why would I misdirect the blame for a stolen election to Kerry? Justice takes time. It's not for the weak at heart. It's not for the impatient. Keep the faith.

Don't you realize the huge accomplishment on Thursday?

[Vektor]

130. I still totally support him...

...and refuse to resort to scapegoating and blame laying when our entire system is fundamentally screwed from the ground up. One man cannot be blamed for the state we are in now. Nothing he alone could do or not do would make all the difference in the world, or repair what is so broken, and has been for years. Our elections/political system is completely corrupt. This is not because of John Kerry, it is SO far beyond that. Our Democracy was decaying and falling away long before Kerry ran for president.

[aintitfunny]

132. Wasn't fond of him to start

but supported him with my heart and soul. I personally believed he was the wrong choice for the party. Too much Vietnam baggage and insufficient charisma and personality to overcome this. During the general election I was enthusiastic, pro-Kerry, active locally in the campaign, donated money and time. But I did not fall in love politically. I will vehemently oppose his candidacy in 4 years at the primary level.

[kerstin]

133. Still love the guy...

and believe he did the right thing by not making himself a target. Plus the Democrats that did speak were wise to concentrate on the egregious accounts of voter suppression rather than the outright fraud that was committed. It made the Repubs seem downright callous, silly and even sadistic as, one by one, they made revolting asses of themselves by nonsensically maligning the dignified Democrats as "conspiracy theorists." I think the Dems and John Kerry played it just right.

[Lorien]

135. I've grown to loathe him

I wasn't too keen on him when he was our candidate, but I swallowed my dislike and worked hard for his campaign. I feel completely betrayed. Now we have a party without ANY real leadership!

[seito]

182. I think many people that loathe him now

were not too keen on him to start with. The biggest factor that determines how people interpret John Kerry's actions seems to be how they felt about him in the time leading up to the election.

I have studied his life and his accomplishments. Because of this, I still support him and I trust his judgment. I believe that the greater good guides John Kerry.

[snot]

136. I think Kerry's using the best strategy given the circumstances

[New Earth]

140. KERRY NEEDS TO TAKE THEM DOWN

ONE BY ONE AND REBUILD HIS RESPECT AMONG HIS DISHEARTENED VOTERS.

his only chance to regain ground in general, and/or any other run for Presidency, he needs to spend the next few years TEARING DOWN THE BUSH ADMINSTRATION. I do believe it is his last chance. If he doesn't do this, I think he can forget ever running again, IMHO.

[kerstin]

143. All the more reason not to make a target of himself Thursday.

Just a hunch.

[Catamount]

144. : Kerry will always be my President....and he won!

Message:
I've only been on DU since the day after the HELLECTION, so I'm still a newbie and usually keep my posts short, but I had to speak up today.
How can anyone doubt that this thing was fixed from the outset?
There has been new evidence day after day, and no doubt there will be more to come.
Kerry beat all the odds-- OK, they're silly but time tested, aren't they?
#1 The Red Sox won!
#2 He is taller than *!
#3 The GB Packers won too!
Kerry IS Presidential!
I thought "Shadow Gov." was a good way of looking at it!
We will never find out exactly why he conceded so soon, but I'm sure there are many reasons, including all that are mentioned in Roenyc's thread.
Just like I felt in my blood that no democratic nominee would win from the moment I learned about Diebold in (2003), I feel now that he is doing everything he can behind the scenes, as many here have pointed out so eloquently.
Yes Senator Kerry could have run a better campaign, I wish he would have been more himself like in that audio clip about (these are the most crooked, lying etc.)But it wouldn't have made any difference!
I hover between bitter disappointment, fear and hatred about the outcome, but I try to direct all my negative feelings against those who really deserve it.
I used to be a newsjunky and had CNN on full time since the early 90's
but no more, I get everything I need from Air America, the CSpans and my local NBC station (If vital) and of course right here.
The fact that BB stood up for truth last week inspired me, and thank God for all the wonderful people like Conyers,Tubbs, Jackson and all the others who are fighting this all the way, you have my utmost respect.
I am not giving up on this and wear my Kerry buttons and left my bumper stickers on too.
Since mine were a little worn out, my son and I designed some new ones too. Only two are ready right now, but we're working on several more. If anyone's interested, you can check them out here.
http://www.cafepress.com/gabriele

[saltpoint]

145. Regarding recent U.S. presidencies --

-- I think Kerry's would have been one we could have learned from.

There's very little emotional or civic uplift from people like Johnson / Nixon / Ford / Reagan / Bush Sr. / Dubya.

Our leaders should be people who have covered some considerable ground in many aspects of their adulthood.

I don't think Dubya is anywhere NEAR that point.

Kerry reached it long ago.

I'd vote for him again tomorrow morning.

[LittleClarkie]

148. So much love it hurts

especially when I see people cutting him to ribbons.

It's not a problem with non-support. Support who you want. It's the childish ranting and bashing. It makes me despair for our party if this place is an indication of the level of maturity within it.

[seito]

150. Thankfully

I do not believe that DU is indicative of the Democratic Party as a whole.

[Catamount]

171. Portrait of Kerry....

This is so beautiful, who painted it?
PS. I checked your site and will join later

[LittleClarkie]

178. Here's the particulars

"'JOHN KERRY, APRIL 1971,' by Elizabeth Peyton, Gavin Brown's Enterprise, 620 Greenwich Street, at Leroy Street, West Village, [phone]. Part of a portfolio of 14 works commissioned by Artforum magazine for its September issue. Through Nov. 2."

I hope Ms. Peyton doesn't mind. It is gorgeous. I wonder if she's considered making lithos of it.

By the way, you can post as a guest over at that proboard site. I tested it. Unless the priviledge gets abused, I'll leave it that way.

[Catamount]

184. Thanks Little Clarkie! n/t

[tritsofme]

151. No more love for him than I have for Mondale, Dukakis, et al

Another failed presidential candidate, I'm looking toward taking the cake in 2008.

[graywarrior]

153. Having grown up in Boston, I know what Kerry is made of

He is being more presidential than fuckwad just by visiting and supporting the troops in Iraq. This is typical of him. He got bad advice. He should have listened to us.

I'm pissed because I have to live the next 4 years under a complete fucking asshole. I will be 59 at the next election. I'm giving Bushfuck some of the best years of my life. I hope his moron brother doesn't plan on running in '08. My stomach can't take the visual of another walking shit spouting off nazi lies.

End of rant.

[Coexist]

160. I don't hate him. I do believe that almost all of our

Dems in DC will be fighting for us.

[Withywindle]

164. Big love, yup.

I have a racially (and nationally) mixed family too. :hi:


I don't feel betrayed. I feel screwed--but not by Kerry. I think he put his heart and soul into the campaign, got bad advice, and overcame incredible odds (anyone who thinks Bush was gonna be EASY to beat is desperately out of touch) to actually win anyhow. And I also think he did EXACTLY the right thing by not being there on Jan. 6. Many people have already explained the reasons why his presence would have been a disruption to the REAL fight, not an asset. Also thanks to Bunny Planet for pointing out that Boxer said she KNEW she would be the only Senator voting yea, and thinks it was FINE and that the REAL battle is just beginning. I had hoped that was true. This fight won't be a headline on the evening news, folks. It will take years, and it will be on C-Span if on TV at all.

I am proud of Kerry going to Iraq and Jordan and Syria and Israel and the Occupied territories. Lord knows we need someone to act like a real President in meeting with foreign leaders and listening to our soldiers for real, since the guy squatting in the White House sure as hell isn't up to it. I can't think of anything more honorable and appropriate he could have done. Certainly not committing seppuku in the Senate chamber.

That said, did we really need another "I hate Kerry/I love Kerry" thread? It's not like we were suffering a shortage.

[roenyc]

191. Understand i am scared to death

of another 4 years of bush. i am not a young person. i am watching something i never ever thought i would see happen in America.

anyone over 40 knows what i am talking about. Sees the change from the 1960's freedom in America to what ever the hell is going on today.

and no one is stopping him! using 9/11 they allowed this man to turn this country into a fascist state. They allowed a national election, what was billed as the most important election of our lifetime, to take place knowing there would be no way to verify it.


and Kerry may be doing an honorable thing right now but at this moment Blackwell is planning his governor run! its insanity.

how much more will Bush get away with and the neo-cons get away with before the Dem's take a stand? whats up their sleeve? i think the only thing up their sleeve is their arms. in the last 4 years thats about all i have seen.

I just wanted to know if people were sending Kerry letters. thats all. and if so what they were saying. its common for senators to go to war sites. he isn't doing anything out of the norm.

I still dont know how i feel about Kerry. he said every vote will be counted. he lied. that bothers me. Kerry is a good man, but as far as this election thing he disappointed me and he did not keep his promise to count those votes.

[Withywindle]

209. I do understand....

...I'm also frightened. (I'm 35, if that matters--too young to really remember the Vietnam era, but old enough to remember the terror I had about reckless Reagan and nuclear annihilation in the 80s)


I think Kerry conceded because at the time he really thought he lost and, well, that's what you do. That simple. Remember how suspiciously timed the invasion of Fallujah was? Bushco deliberately held it off until immediately after the election even though militarily that was a terrible idea. Had Kerry fought publically during that, they would have smeared him with the troop-hating, Hanoi John, traitorous, doesn't-he-realize-there's-a-war-on crap they used during the campaign (which worked on a lot of people, sadly)--only times TEN.

I still think the challenge to the Ohio electors was the beginning of a long fight, not the end of one. I also think it's not the only one going on right now. I still have some hope that Kerry's gathering real information here and that the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations might become a locus of resistance to Bushco's impending disasters. That isn't incompatible with another simultaneous fight against election fraud. There's a hell of a lot to be done, and we need as many as people as we can get who can walk and chew gum at the same time--while dodging bullets.

[GreenPartyVoter]

167. God bless, good luck, try to do some good on the Hill, but

I feel I have to support my own party in the next presidential election.

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[marcologico]

169. that gives you four years to re-register

j/k

:toast:

[GreenPartyVoter]

170. Nah, but it gives me four years to get ranked voting. I don't mind

giving the Dem my #2 or #3 slot. It all depends on whether I like the Socialist or Dem better in a given race. :)

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[steve2470]

172. Harsh reality vs. idealism: would it have been nice if Kerry fought

to the death for the Repugs. to have to have Shrub selected again by the SCOTUS ? Maybe. Would that have occurred if Kerry had fought the Repugs. ? Probably, yes. Would the RW semi-convincingly label us as "sore losers" ? They would damn sure try. Would the Repugs have labelled the Dems as sore losers if Kerry had been standing up in the Senate on Thursday ? You betcha. Does it really matter if we are stuck with the sore loser label ? You betcha. Americans do not like sore losers.

[Catamount]

173. I believe he IS fighting! n/t

[steve2470]

174. In his own wily political way, I 100% agree with you nt

[Catamount]

176. Exactly!, It's nice to agree, isn't it?

[steve2470]

177. indeed, you are so smart lol nt

[Catamount]

185. LOL, once again we agree! n/t

[marcologico]

199. all true except I don't think it would have gotten to the Supreme Court

There don't seem to be many honest judges in Ohio and their state supreme court is solidly GOP so I don't think anything found so far would have gotten past the first appeal.

But ANY challenge would have sent Kerry off to the Sunset Boulevard home for deluded has-beens.

[joevoter]

188. still hoping . . . . .

tick, tick, tick

[roenyc]

192. thanks for all your thoughts

i have much respect for john Kerry, i spent the summer being so proud to support him.

We have so much against us. it was all orchestrated just like in 2000. from the moment it all ended and Kerry seemed forced IMO to concede the MSM started with the values BS.

and we all knew what a lie that was. but it was a set up to cover up the fraud and discrimination.

I can still remember the moment Kerry conceded - we all sat around and cried for a moment. we all had our theories. my daughter said - they have a gun to his head. I said hmm, skull and bones. my son didn't say a word. What happened to every vote counting?

the country really did want a change. the youth vote did come out. the minority vote came out.

i must tell you if something isn't done by 2006 no one is coming out except the republicans.

I have no feelings anymore. one way or another for any of them. they are going to have to earn support. the way they did on the 6th.

[jsw_81]

193. I still like him a lot

John Kerry is a great American who always fought the good fight and did what he thought was best for the country. The fact that he gave up his dream of the White House and gracefully conceded the election -- rather than dragging the country into recount chaos -- shows just how deeply he loves America.

Those of you whining because Kerry and the other Dems didn't buy into your idiotic, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories need to get the hell over it already. The sad fact is that the American people chose Bush, and we're stuck with him for four more years. Should we as get our act together, however, we'll be celebrating the election of a Democratic president before you know it. And I'm hoping that his name will be John Kerry.

[McCamy Taylor]

198. I love him when he is in Iraq standing up for the troops.

If he becomes the Troop's point man in the US Senate, I will consider that he has made up for much of the wrong he did in being such a wuss last November, however he needs to stay out of presidential politics, he isnt suited for the dirty fighting that goes on there. Dean or Edwards would have done much better in the best election fight.

[bush_is_wacko]

202. Yes and yes, I have written him.

It has to be pretty hard for him to stay away from the political arena right now. I was thrilled to read he was warmly received in Iraq. That says a lot to anyone that has ever had military members in the family. In the past they have been die hard fanatics of the CIC. It sees now they appreciate both the CIC and the man that runs against him. That is a major departure from standard military practice.

[impeachthescoundrel]

206. There is plenty of love

for him in my house

[Senior citizen]

210. Kerry had 4 years to prepare to lead the Democratic Party.

When no Democratic Senator stood up in 2000, they were all on notice that we lacked leadership.

Four years later one Senator stood up. With four years to prepare, it wasn't Kerry and it wasn't Kennedy--it was Boxer.

Andrew Vachss says "action is truth." The ones who speak out are politicians. The one who stands up is the leader.

Kerry had plenty of time to visit Iraq. He knew when the electoral votes would be counted as well as we did. There is no excuse.

Kerry sucks, Boxer rocks.

I do have a question, though. Of those who voted to investigate the voter fraud, how many were not black or Jewish? I'm beginning to wonder if the only people who understand that fascism must be opposed no matter the circumstances or the odds, are those who are likely to be the first to die. (I'm Jewish myself.)