The Secret Outcome of Election 2004 and the Things to Watch for...

[mattclearing]

The fraud and stealing that likely occurred has resulted in a few interesting dynamics that I think we should all keep an eye on:

1. Bush is set to be the least popular President in living memory.

2. A large portion of the Democratic Party (particularly the leadership) quite likely wrongfully believes it did something wrong to deserve this election defeat, and is doing soul-searching rather than patting itself on the back for having employed responsible progressive strategies.

3. The media is less and less respected, as it uncritically reports the post-election demolition of Fallujah, the stunning mandate of the Republicans, the sour-grapes of the X-files Democrats, etc. How can average, fence-sitting non-partisan or independent voters respect a media when they see these same events and the media consistently draw the incorrect conclusions that they do?

These dynamics create a sort of national suspension of disbelief that depends upon faith in institutions and past performance in order to survive.

When something bad happens that can't be explained away, and the dam breaks against all of the above, you can expect some serious cultural/political upheaval, the likes of which haven't been seen since at least the early 90's, and possibly even the late 60's/early 70's.

[BeFree]

1. Ahh, the late sixties

It was hell. I hope no one ever has to live through that again.

Now what we fight is so much more insidous and secretive. They have learned to wear the sheep's clothing as a diguise rather well, eh?

One thing we have going for us is the lost faith most people have in the governement. We just need to have them look at little closer at the teeth.

"My, what big teeth you have" said the googlers to the wolf.<grin>

[mattclearing]

2. The googlers will play a big part in #3.

You can already see the media gearing up to try to discredit the blogosphere.

Rathergate and Ohio, even going back to Drudge and the Clinton impeachment, all show that the corporate media is threatened by unpredictable online publishers with low capital investment and unlimited potential for circulation.

They are understandably worried. Their oligopoly on truth and acceptable beliefs and rationales is threatened.

[Roger_Otip]

6. the media is not the same as the MSM

websites like this are the media as much as any tv network or mainstream rag and we need to stop giving the MSM credit by referring to them as "the media" - they used to be, but they ain't any more.

[dkofos]

9. Agreed

I will start using SC MSM (So Called MSM) in my posts from now on.

[merh]

25. I prefer CMW

"Corporate Media Whores" - but then again, with the story about Sinclair's talking head taking money for the weed's admin, it appears that they are just MW "Media Whores". They take money from everyone. The truth doesn't matter. Facts are insignificant.

[Blue_In_AK]

38. I like Corporate Media Whores, too

It has a nice ring to it.

[tngledwebb]

12. MSM might be countered and brought down by e- media,

one day, but the BFEE will first censor or shut it down completely under the Patriot Act or not, and they will probably start right here.

[mattclearing]

31. Let them come for us then.

I'm of the impression that most DU'ers are the kinds of people that will be missed if they go missing.

Ultimately there are too many of us to fight without doing so in the open. In the open, any attempt to clamp down on free speech and social gathering is going to fail. And it will be embarassing.

Let us have that great debate. Like Senator Boxer the other day, it is hard to attack someone for standing up for the right to vote.

Likewise, it is hard to attack someone for standing up for free speech.

I will welcome the opportunity to use, defend, and maintain my freedom of speech if and when it becomes necessary to do so.

[hootinholler]

47. Absolutely.

We have a convergence of at least these three motives:

1. Motive for the MSM to discredit the internet to protect their revenue streams.

2. Dominionist desires to rule the world setting up the return of Christ.

3. The Machievellian (SP?!) wealthy elite pulling strings in the background. They simply want power for power itself.

Which ones have I missed?

I believe that 3 has infiltrated or is using 2 and that at every opportunity, if they don't own directly 1, they are certainly pushing the thought from 1 into the MSM heads.

-Hoot

[mattclearing]

49. While all of those are certainly factors, they are peripheral,

with the exception of the revenue stream thing.

I'm convinced the Bushes mainly want to loot. The Iraq war is a great excuse to loot the Treasury out to defense contractor friends like Halliburton.

The Social Security Privatization is a great way to borrow money for the Government and then loot it out of the stock market through insitutional investors skimming the SS investment out of the market again.

The tax cut is a great example of this...simple wealth redistribution...away from the government and back to the wealthy.

Most of their policy initiatives come back to this.

[BeFree]

51. Social Security

"Here's an idea" says the republicans, "Lets use the Enron Business Plan to maximize the return on Social Security."

It's just another way of robbing a bank. Most bankrobbers get caught, yes, but the really big ones, hardly ever. Kiss SS, goodbye.

[mattclearing]

52. The important thing is to start accusing them of the theft.

They are pillaging the Treasury. Might as well at least call them on it.

It's sad that the Dems are to a great extent complicit through sheer gullibility. Hopefully they are learning a lesson.

[rdmccur]

41. Hey we landed on the moon!

We had some real social awakening then!
I'm nostalgic for that period.
Except for the cold war.

[peacetalksforall]

3. The right wing media (cpns) are going down fast in the world of

Dem thinking people who haven't been paying attention. More and more people are figuring out that the media gets their marching orders from the cabal through their CPNs CEOs.

CPNs = Corporate Propaganda Networks.

It translates to a world where the cabal says:

Push this! Ignore this! Avoid this! Distort this! Ridicule this! Always ridicule these people! Always ridicule these issues. Schedule this 'expert'. Do not book this person! Eat up the time with common murders and Hollywood bashing! Never report Iraq news unless cleared at the top levels.

Our plight with the media is that it is immeasureably worse than the USSR or the People's Republic because it is insidious. Our citizens don't know that it is happening to them. On the other hand, many of the followers and swallowers of the right wing believe the opposite because the lie of the liberal press is pushed down their throats. They use propaganda lies against their own voter base.

These propaganda artists operate at full force against us.

These propaganda ceos use our air space to destroy us by not allowing freedom of the press.

The lies the media spreads for the cabal by stealth...
are designed with focus.

There are lies designed to go out to the entire world.
There are lies designed for all U.S. citizens.
There are lies designed for their own.
Lies for, but mostly about liberals.
Lies by gender, race, religion.
Lies about the Constitution and Bill of Rights and the
principles that have evolved by reason and heritage such as
separation of church and state and innocent until proven guilty. They assist in making a simple issue confusing. They succeed wildly by omission.

One of their worst campaigns against us is to assist in the dumbing down by all sports, all entertainment, all sensationalism, all commercialism, all fear, all worry, all corporate and military elevation, all the time so that we are more controllable and totally ignorant about what they are really doing to us.

[mattclearing]

4. This is true now, but as with all things, they are getting greedy...

...and over-reaching.

This election, the issues I mentioned, the lack of WMD, the inability to articulate anything in the debates...it all goes into a mental file that requires one event to unlock and connect.

The public consciousness, and indeed, the public conscience, is being dangerously toyed with right now. People will be understandably angry when somebody fucks up and leaves their i's undotted.

At that point, either the insidious illusion of freedom you speak of will be stripped of its plausible deniability, or people will outright go apeshit and demand their country back.

There's a certain former Democratic presidential candidate who is interested in forwarding that latter agenda, come to think of it.

;)

[nodictators]

17. TV "news" uses Hitler's propaganda methods against the American People

The "Big Lie" is explained in Mein Kampf. Hitler explained that repetition is the key to propaganda. Repeat the lies often enough and the People begin to believe that there must be some truth to the lies.

Examples:

Whitewater lies about the Clintons.

Lies about Gore

Weapons of Mass Destruction lies

Weapons of Mass Destruction "found" lies

Swift Boat Liars' Lies about Kerry

Each of these were repeated endlessly by the Network Liars until they had the masses convinced.

Hitler must be smiling!

[mattclearing]

32. I would advise against drawing the Hitler comparison, personally.

While I'm sure I've been guilty of this before, it's in poor taste, and people are understandably turned off by it.

It's like Rove's weather machine and the tsunami (which, I have to note, even though the need to do so seems absurd, is crap), it's so over the top that it becomes a weapon for the other side to paint us as kooks.

I think we should take them on the basis of their ideas without making historical comparisons that may or may not withstand closer scrutiny.

Why compare them to Hitler? Isn't what they are doing bad enough on its own?

Their ideas are demonstrably flawed and quite easily challenged. The problem lately has been getting a platform.

People like Michael Moore, and famous progressives like Sarandon/Robbins and the like find ways around it, only to get pummelled in the media for it.

Ultimately, if you are an influential liberal voice, you can expect a great deal of mockery from the Drudges and the Novaks of the world.

[yurbud]

39. only problem with Hitler analogy

Not that it's irrelevant, but the hard shell of the belief in American exceptionalism is bulletproof. If we saw the same thing happening in another country, we wouldn't have any trouble recognizing it for the fascism it is.

[AwakeAtLast]

5. I agree with you, and it also has to do with

the fact that I think a large number of people who voted for Bush did so with a lot of caution. In other words, they give the guy the job, but they will watch him like a hawk, unlike the previous four years. The two months since the election have produced enough evidence that these people need to investigate further. Many will do this, and then the proverbial shit will hit the fan.

DU and websites like it should be preparing for a wave of disillusioned voters in the near future.

[mattclearing]

8. An interesting thought on heavy traffic at DU re: Fox News Tsunami

Fox's broadside on this messageboard was exactly the kind of thing that I said the media is interested in doing now. It's both a testament to DU's success as a leading liberal site and a low-blow aimed at discouraging alternative news discussion everywhere.

Look for producers to start going after websites in more newsreports, debunking "crazy things someone read on the Internet." It's a way to discourage tv viewers from leaving their sets and attempting to find out for themselves what's really going on.

I think the chilling effect that kind of thing has on free speech is another thing to think about.

If not for places like DU, where people can try to distinguish fact from fiction working together, how else to attempt to counter the Republican message monsther? Our institutions are late to the game in this respect.

Smacking down DU with a weak hachet job piece is a not-so-subtle attempt to squelch the growth of effective liberal opposition on the Internet.

The Internet is the best place for people to get together and share less mainstream opinions because of the presumed anonymity of the medium.

That also comes with inherent problems, such as bad info getting paraded as fact and suspicion being quoted as accusation.

Which, I guess is part of the process in a new medium as it gains acceptance and usefulness.

[peacetalksforall]

10. Yes, soon the directive will come out to smear sites like DU.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

26. Yes, we have to be prepared to help...

When people really start to 'Get it", they will be in very fragile states of mind. Our 'paranoia shift" (thanks BreakForNews!) has already happened, and we found solace and comfort at DU. I know I did about Nov. 3, approx. noon, when I first found all of you.

As Americans, it is our duty to comfort and educate our fellow citizens, and help support them during this social crisis.

[madison2000]

7. #2 has been bothering me the most, especially when I see it here

Its like the Democrats are constantly questioning themselves and each other. What did we do wrong? We left the fox in charge of guarding the henhouse, and thats all we did wrong.

There was nothing so wrong with our candidate or our campaign that deserves all this bashing and self-immolation. We did the best we did with what we had and so did Kerry. We were so naive as to believe that everyone else repects the integrity of the democratic process as much as we do. They don't. They believe their cause is right and therefore will seek to elevate themselves by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE, including, lying, stealing, cheating, and murder.

I believe that the masses will start to wake up when it comes to the dismantling of social security. Its an enormously popular program with older people, and they vote. I am extremely worried about it myself and plan to raise my voice loudly to protest.

I hope the dam breaks soon.

[peacetalksforall]

11. Yes, the media is helping them lie about SS.

The irony...the court jester so-called news person and the hosts will participate in the death of SS by the cabal while their own families can be affected or even them.

[mollyd]

58. As Socrates said

"An unexamined life is not worth living."

I understand the liability of constant angst in Democrats about our choises. It is more acceptable than the Republicans who never question themselves.

The downside of doing what's right...well for Socrates it didn't turn our so well :)

[KingoftheJungle]

13. Its all part of a greater revolution

I honestly believe that the extreme nature of this administration is going to set the stage for a massive, hard fought revolution, the likes of which none of us have ever seen. I say be prepared for a peroid of absolute hell, many dead and imprisoned, and afterwards a peroid of radical cultural progression that could very well rival the enlightenment or even the founding of this country.

[mattclearing]

15. Well, I certainly don't advocate for that kind of thing.

And I pray that will not take place. This is a country of laws and principles, and what you are saying is something that I can't support.

Armed with the truth, numbers, and the courage of our convictions, we should be able to wrest power from these people in a way that is damning.

Think of how the Republican Party was in 2000. They were demoralized and desperate because of the way Clinton man-handled them. Without 9/11, Bush would be back in Crawford now. And God knows he should be. Take away fear, and they have nothing.

That is why we must learn not to be afraid of their smearing, nasty, hateful campaigns. There have been times where I have found it necessary to educate people on what's going on, to counter media nonsense when I hear it parrotted in the workplace or with family.

It is a responsibility for all of us to counter media-propagated conventional wisdom with carefully worded truth at every presented opportunity...this is how you convert people.

People need to start standing up for themselves. Our leaders will eventually get the message if we live it out on the net AND in our day-to-day lives.

People like Howard Dean can help to take the power back in the proper way.

[KingoftheJungle]

56. I admire your optimism, but

But at this point it is clear that they have control over every single facet of government possible, thus eliminating the possibility of using traditional legal methods of holding them accountable to anything. Furthermore, I have seen enough evidence (most of which has not yet been released) to convince me that this current republican administration is a dangerous "cult" of neofacist and, even more dangerous, dominionist believers who will stop at nothing (even murder and war) to claim complete power over as much of the world as possible. They have stolen democracy in this country by outright fraud and manipulation and have also done it to other countries in latin america, africa, and progressive European countries as well (Norway's PM was outed as a member of this group, and the liberal Netherlands was similarly taken over by this faction). What makes you believe they will stop at nothing to ensure they retain power for as long as possible? They have it easy now, the public is generally blind to what is going on and those who do acknowledge what is happening are all bark and no bite. When it becomes too much and the public begins to turn against them in a big way, I am positive they will begin using the PATRIOT act and similar provisions against any form of opposition in order to create a public fear of internal "U.S. terrorists". I need not explain what kind of cultural atmosphere will result from this, as we have numerous examples from the previous century to use as analogies. Then, as our situation becomes more desperate and more and more people face extreme poverty and persecution, violence will erupt in the form of guerilla warfare and then BOOM a civil war, only our side will be the ones throwing stones at the armored tanks. This is pretty extremist, I know, but this government has got to be the most extreme form of evil I have ever witnessed in my own lifetime. Not only are they comically "evil" and inept in every respect, but they are at the helms of the world's greatest military superpower, and are in no way, shape, or form accountable to the law or the popular will. I fail to see how this can ever end peacefully.

What I believe, and I agree is entirely a product of my own fantasy, is that we are on the verge of a long overdue and radical cultural leap that requires, as all radical changes do, a violent peroid of time in which we will undergo much sacrafice. These sacrafices will enable a radical shift in our cultural identity and quite possibly our identity as human beings, which I feel may return us to a more "tribal" culture in terms of interpersonal connection, family, and "spirituality" (a greater sense of truth, positivity, and happiness). We are also going to face a time where we are in a position to advance human beings through genetic engineering, and will no doubt face radical opposition to the inevitable evolution. Eh I'm getting off into a rant here, I'm better at talking about this in person. These are just my lunatic ideas, but I believe them and we'll see where the future takes us when we get there.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

57. Dark and very accurate assessment of the enormity of our situation.

We are at the culmination of decades of effort to achieve total control of the massess by the US power elite.

The legal mechanisms for a police state armed with technologies of surveillance and violence we don't even know about have already been put in place by people anxious to USE them.

This mechanisms stand ready for the moment when propaganda no longer keeps people moving in the desired direction as it has been for 60 years now.

The rest of the world's power elite are allying against the US and most of the people who get hurt in warfare are civilians.

The eco-disaster we are (probably) causing offers challenge enough without war and poverty and will bring more of those two, as well.

The ice caps are melting and half of America denies science in favor of blind faith in their king and his nobles because he promises to save them from the threat of gay marriage.

People like us are left with the responsibility of rousing, warning, educating our fellow citizens from their denial of the emergency.

SO: Learn all you can about who these neo-cons are and how propaganda works. Do your homework and spread the word of secular-humanism or whatever form of anti-fascism you can put your ALL into.

[renaissanceguy]

22. I really wonder what will happen

in the years to come. Clearly there is a deep divide between "red" and "blue" states. Both sides think they're (we're) right. And the MSM and the three branches of our government side with the fascists.

If something isn't done by progressives, it will be just like Orwell's "1984": constant war, surveillance, and fear.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.16200506

[Viva_La_Revolution]

28. Velvet revolution please.....

Violence is not the way!

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/

[Number_6]

14. Know the truth by their lies

Since Bushco was babbling about mandate, I gather he knows his power over the people is hanging by a thread. Since he's gearing up for an expensive inauguration, I gather he knows the "victory" was hollow. Think for a minute what's really going on in people's heads out here in the hinterland if "only" about 40% of the 60% of eligible voters really voted for Bushco. I think the rest truly have had enough of him. For these people to rise up, however, they need to get past their fears, which are largely generated by Bushco! Fears of being fired, sent to Guantanamo, etc., if they turn from raging lurkers into activists.

[mattclearing]

16. People need to leave their fears at the door.

I'm willing to go to the mat with these people. I think we all should be willing to take one for the team if need be.

I don't know about you guys, but I want to see social justice, a diverse and unhindered media with no gatekeepers, a president with true integrity, and a government that stands for more than, "greed and 'democracy' or else."

I think we can have it in our lifetimes, but we have to be willing to fight for it.

God knows the other side is willing to bare-knuckle us. We have to be willing to take it and stand up for the ideals that matter to us.

It's only going to get harder to speak out if we remain silent or timid.

[fooj]

20. Well said. Spoken like a true patriot!

"I have a dream..."

[Blue_In_AK]

40. I hate it when I read stories in the "media" about

Bush's "whopping" victory. Whopping?????? Are they NUTZ?

[newyawker99]

60. Hi Number_6!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[merh]

18. You hit the nail on the head with #2 - sure wish our leadership would

recognize what we have done. Their failure to appreciate their strengths is their greatest weakness!

2. A large portion of the Democratic Party (particularly the leadership) quite likely wrongfully believes it did something wrong to deserve this election defeat, and is doing soul-searching rather than patting itself on the back for having employed responsible progressive strategies.

[mattclearing]

23. If you noticed, Kerry said that he thought they ran a good campaign

against a wartime President.

And I would have to agree, especially with the lack of coverage afforded Kerry/Edwards in the critical months.

By not covering them, the media allowed the Republican Party to paint a picture and refuse Kerry/Edwards the means to refute it effectively.

K/E learned ways around this, such as releasing commercials they didn't actually buy time for in order to garner extra coverage.

I think they adjusted well all in all. Some mistakes, but any winning campaign hits bumps in the road.

[merh]

24. I noticed that Kerry believes he ran a good campaign.

Its the DNC and the DLC and alot of posters here that refuse to accept and acknowledge it.

All campaigns make mistakes. Rove has made his, we just have to get the "hard evidence" to prove the biggest one of the B/C campaign, that is they stole it.

[mattclearing]

29. All the more reason to consistently challenge conventional wisdom.

The media wants us all to think in certain ways. They have promoted the belief that Kerry ran a poor campaign.

Honestly, we don't know what else could have happened, having no time machines or alternate realities to judge. Kerry might have done the best that anyone could have expected.

I think it is important to call bullshit when people make indefensible statements like, "Kerry ran a bad campaign, he was too aloof, he couldn't make up his mind on any issue..." on and on...Media parrotting right-wing talking points that don't hold up to close scrutiny but require response.

We need people who can really stand up for our side. Not like Crossfire, where it's attack-attack all the time, but in ways that are dignified and give a true platform to actually speak without being shouted down.

The downward spiral towards entertainment-oriented news ensures that this will become more difficult if we let it.

[merh]

35. The first thing we need to do is appreciate our strengths and

accomplishments. If the military just looked at its weaknesses and over looked its strengths, it would never be able to win a battle because it would not be able to reposition its resources to allow its strengths to support its weaknesses.

The media is now in a frenzy about Sinclair's fellow getting $240,000. from the WH to "promote" its agenda. Scarborough was screaming last night that Franken was right, the media is in the WH pocket. Buchanan this morning was agreeing with the dem senator calling for an investigation. He said that he wanted to know what other members of the media were on the WH payroll and what other PR and lobbyists were receiving our tax dollars.

The media may be waking up. Let's hope so.

[mattclearing]

37. Yeah, but crime in the suites isn't sexy unless there's a name like...

Martha Stewart. Sad, but true.

We need Bush to say and do something totally retarded. Something that outs him as having zero respect for anyone or anything. Like being caught on mic dissing kids or puppies.

[Zookeeper]

44. Scarborough said Franken was right?!?!

:wow:

I did watch the last five minutes of Hardball last night and was surprised to see that Matthews was interviewing Franken, who was quite blunt in his statements about Rush ("He's a liar." He pulls statistics, "out of his ass."). Matthews looked very uncomfortable and said, "I don't like the word 'liar'...".

I'm surprised, but pleased, that so many commentators are jumping on this White House payoff story. Perhaps they feel motivated to protect their facade of "integrity."

[merh]

45. Or perhaps they are just pissed they didn't get the $240,000!

Scarborough said that unless the media pursues this matter and unless the repukes investigate the depth of the involvement, it looks like the media has been bought off by the WH and repugs and Franken is right.

It was so bizarre.

[mattclearing]

46. Yeah, Matthews wouldn't. He's been talking out of both sides of his mouth.

...for years. Liar is a perfectly good term for someone who tells lies, especially one like Rush who lies regularly.

[AntiFascist]

53. Scarborough did seem a bit paleoconservative....

Some of the things Matthews allowed Franken to say were downright radical.

[icehenge]

54. Question...

"The media is now in a frenzy about Sinclair's fellow getting $240,000. from the WH to "promote" its agenda"

Do you have some more information on this?
Its the first I've heard of it, a link?

Nice post by the way. Buchanan and Scarborough
siding with the democrats? Wow. Sounds like
good news to me.

[merh]

59. Welcome to DU, icehenge!

Here is a link to the thread discussing this!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1132620

[fooj]

19. Not to mention the delicious irony if Moore wins PEOPLES CHOICE

Tee Hee! LMAO...explain THAT ONE away!

[mattclearing]

21. Yeah, that will be hilarious.

Does Zogby do their polling? ;)

[fooj]

27. we interrupt this awards ceremony because the tabulation is incorrect

LMAO!

[mattclearing]

30. Gibson: "I demand a recount!"

:evilgrin:

[fooj]

33. BWAAHHHHHHH!

:headbang:

[llpoperations]

34. Popular Grassroots versus Entrenched Contributors

Do most non-voters think America is in big trouble and the situation is getting worse? YES! YES! YES!

Do most non-voters realize that there are many things the federal government go do to make our country safer, stronger, fairer and more respected? YES! YES! YES!

Do most non-voters believe the Democratic Party is fighting for them and addressing their needs? NO! NO! NO!

The Democratic Party at the national level has proven itself a flunky to corporate interests. At the state level Democrats regularly show that their large contributors are much more important than their constituents.

Can the Democratic Party change this perception among non-voters??
NO! NO! NO!

Only a new party with no ties to major contributors, of any kind, can convince non-voters that there is an option to the current corrupt system.

Otherwise, we're like the Whigs during the 1840's; we know there's a real problem, but we'd like to find a compromise solution. It failed then and within 20 years caused the greatest conflict ever to take place in North America.

And that's what will happen again if we don't create a new party.

[mattclearing]

36. Sorry, can't support you here either.

The Democratic Party has unlimited potential to be a force for good in ways that only an entrenched and competitive national party can.

Any third party will take MANY elections to develop the kind of strength a revitalized and progressive Democratic Party could have in one or two elections.

We need to keep pushing the Democratic Party in the direction of principle and promise, not pander and pretend.

[llpoperations]

42. Just a few questions

Tasteblind,

Will your "force for good" suggest eliminating the income cap as a way to strenghen the Social Security system?

Will your force demand full funding for Head Start?

Will your force introduce, and support, an honest program for national health insurance which is not tied in knots by the insurance corporations and HMOs?

Will your force work for the re-regulation of the communications industry and the break-up of the media giants who have taken control of what Americans see, hear and have explained to them??

Will your force create and support an intelligent plan for American energy independence within the next decade??

I could keep going with issue after issue, but I'll sum it up this way - the Republicans are full-time whores, but the Democrats are only part-time sluts.

And you still don't address the issue of the perceptions of the non-voters.

[mattclearing]

43. I can speak for myself.

I would personally take a stand on those issues. And I would support people who did those things, for the most part.

The Democratic Party can be made to stand for anything, as the last ten years amply show.

There is no reason to believe that you cannot enact every reform you have listed from the Democratic Party.

There is every reason to believe that no third party will ever take a majority position in Government and enact the reforms you speak of.

Whether third parties force the Democratic Party to do something, or we work within the Party to make those changes, ultimately the Democratic Party will be the vehicle that institutionalizes those kinds of changes, as it has been for the past century.

[Laurab]

55. No support here, either

A new party would only hurt the only real hope we have, which is the Democratic party. It would serve to weaken, rather than strengthen the only hope we have. There IS an option to the current corrupt ADMINISTRATION, and if we work to strengthen the Democratic party, and weaken the other regime, as I believe we have begun to do, that alone will give us a chance.

I love the idea of a 3rd party - I took a poll that said I was a "Liberatian" (I think that was it?), but it's not a viable option. I think a 3rd party is downright dangerous when our country is in the position we're in today.

Does the Democratic party need improvement? ABSOLUTELY. I'm not sure how much, as I blame the voting system, more than the party, for this past election. Will a 3rd party have a chance in hell of being elected to anything truly important? Certainly not, in my opinion, they would only take votes from the only hope we have, weak as it may seem to be right now.

I have a tremendous appreciation for what the 3rd party candidates did in their recount efforts, and I love some of their ideas, but I'm a realist, and the reality is, it would hurt the democratic party more than it would hurt the repugs, and in turn, hurt our country. If we were in a period of peace and prosperity, it would be a little different, but when our democracy is at stake under a tyrannical maniac, it's just not an option.

[spooked911]

48. Yes-- great points. Especially #2-- I hate when they do that!

[mattclearing]

50. Yeah, it's pretty depressing to behold.

:kick: