Stop blaming Kerry. Put the blame where it belongs. On ourselves.

[saracat]

Look at the action we took last week. We were united and screamed to the rooftops until we got a Senator to stand up. We almost got more of them but they backed off at the last minute politically pragmatic chicken shits that they are.

People say Kerry knew about election fraud.People say that the party was warned and nothing was done.That is true.But only by a handful of people. How many people were phoning and faxing about this issue every day? How many made it their primary concern before and during election 2004?

People were all obsessive over Dean's scream. People talked about SBVFT. People talked about Rather and the AWOL story.But few took action or even dealt with election reform. It was "our' responsibility as citizens to get involved "before" the election. I know that some of us did and to those I give credit. Many others just made a donation to various entities such as BBV and "assumed "that was getting the job done. But just think if we had coordinated our efforts as we did this week!

We cannot continue to blame Kerry and the members of Congress without looking at ourselves as well.They only dealt with those issues that they thought we wanted to hear about . They are politicians that is what they do. If we had squealed enough and made Electoral reform a pivotal issue , it might have been dealt with.

What do you think would have happened if election reform had been an issue? Tell me which ,if any candidate ran on election reform?

On. January 6th , we the people made it our priority and we got some of our representatives to listen. We must continue to raise our voices because our government cannot hear a whisper.

[LisaL]

1. I don't think that's true.

Everybody knew about possibility of election fraud before the election. I have signed petitions to have a paper trail with each machine, and I am sure many people did too. Little good that did.
Obviously, nobody is listening much to regular people who want to have verifiable elections. On the other hand, how did our democratic leadership allowed republicans to count the votes?
:eyes:

[saracat]

2. Because they didn't believe it was an issue. Look at how many

even of us don't believe it is an issue NOW! How many people on DU are saying "get over it" "Move on" Bush won! Obama said he believed Bush got more voted than Kerry. I was at a candidates thank you party the other night and one of our state leaders echoed that same sentiment. There has to be a continual barrage of complaints for them to listen. You have to jam the switchboards and fax machines.We did not do that. Polite petioning doesn't work on them.

[LisaL]

5. I don't know what works on them.

If they still don't think that's an issue, maybe they don't even deserve to win. How dumb can you be to allow republicans to count votes and think they will be fair and honest?

[merh]

4. Did you just get signatures on Petitions or did you jam the

switchboard at congress, did you flood them emails and faxes and letters? Did you scream so loud that they couldn't chit chat amongst themselves because the screams were so loud? We signed petitions too and we did more than that and will continue to do more than that. We took the American Idol telephone phenomenom and made it our own. Don't belittle the impact we had from Nov. 3 to Jan. 6. We got a senator to join in the petition. Maybe if others had done in 2000 what the activists did prior to Jan. 6, maybe Gore would not have asked that the senators not sign the petition, maybe the challenge would have worked.

How about your local elections? Did you help in the campaign for your local BOE or Election Commissioners? Did you help in the campaign for your secretary of state or attorney general? Have you sought office.

Don't you dare try to belittle the successful efforts of so many activists this time. Many here and through out the nation are willing to continue the efforts, are you?

[saracat]

11. Merh reread my post. I am not belittling the efforts. But there is no

question that MOST people, not activists , didn't make election reform a priority. And I , in fact did do the things you mentioned. But I didn't fax, the way I did on Jan. 5th.Over and Over.I didn't call countless Senators ,over and over! There are more of us now and we must be louder. What I am saying is we can't let this drop, and just say .It's Kerry's fault!

The letter he files in the Record is one of the few times I heard him mention election reform. But he said he was listening.We got his attention, but after the election. It isn't as though noone tried.We weren't LOUD enough. We were civilized and polite. We needed to scream and we did on Jan.5th. and 6th. We need to do it more often!

[merh]

15. Agreed, we need to continue screaming at the top of our lungs.

I do thank you for trying before the election. I don't mean to belittle your efforts then. :hi:

We will fight together and united. What our leaders have forgotten is simple, WE the People, put them in office, we need to keep reminding them that they work for us.

:toast:

[ginnyinWI]

22. Hillary Clinton and others tried.

They introduced a bill about having a paper trail on voting machines. The Republican majority in Congress didn't get around to it! I think it is up to us grassroots to raise a huge groudswell of support, get into the media and scream about this to the pub majority has to do something.

[anamandujano]

53. The media and the repuke majority are brick walls.

We will get no response from either camp. They know what they are doing and I blieve the Dems in power also know what they are doing.

The best bet was Kerry speaking up. He did not. End of story.

Any attempts to right this in the coming years can be so easily buried that the repukes won't even waste their energy laughing about it.

[johnfunk]

3. It's the MEDIA, not the campaign...

... and I'll be the first to say that Kerry made many mistakes -- starting with hiring Mary Beth Cahill, who should've gone Karl Rove on the Smear Boat Veterans for Bush, John O'Neill, Jerome Corsi, their Bush-allied financiers, and -- yes -- their allies at right-wing blogs and Free Republic.

That was mistake one.

"People were all obsessive over Dean's scream. People talked about SBVFT. People talked about Rather and the AWOL story."

Because big corporate media loves a cheap and facile story. If Cahill had the cojones and the right press surrogates, Bush would have been tarred by his own Smear Boat Liars, which likely would have driven inquiries into why he never did his duty that year in Alabama.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

6. Plenty of people on the ground worked hard to volunteer and

help get Kerry elected.

I mainly blame the media whores (Candy Crowley, Tweety, Andrea Mitchell, etc. certainly did us no favors), that bastard KKKarl Rove, the constant free airings of the Swift Boat Liars by the media (who couldn't seem to get enough of it), etc. Kerry could have been more aggressive and should have attacked those Swifties right off the bat. I think he also should have never hired Bob Shrum (0 for 8 now?!).

After the story about Armstrong, I'm beginning to wonder who else * has paid off, I mean, aside from Fox who is a walking advertisement for Shrub, Inc.

[merh]

7. January 6th proved that we have found our voices, despite the

efforts of the media to ignore us and despite the efforts of the media to label us kooks and "conspiracy theorists". The media coverage of what happened on January 6 and the issue of election reform continues and it would not be continuing if we had not gotten congress' attention. We made them hear us, they did not ignore us. No, their actions were not perfect and they were not everything we wanted, but they acted. They listened to us and they acted.

We still have a voice, We, the People, still have a voice and it is still our government.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

8. Thankfully, Olbermann had the balls to cover the issue of election

irregularities. If not for him, no MSM would have covered it.

[saracat]

13. Thank You Merh. I think we agree more than we disagree on this!

This is what I am trying to say!

[merh]

43. We definitely agree!

I just have realized that focusing on the CMW (corporate media whores) is not what we need to do. As we found our voices without their help, we need to continue raises our voices and maybe they will figure out that we are the news, not Robert Blake or Michael Jackson.

If everyone can take the time to send thank you letters and donantions if possible to those who stood up, we can show that we appreciate that they heard us and we support them and will continue to support them, as long as they listen.

[saracat]

16. I am NOT taking about the Campaign.

I am talking about our efforts for election reform. Many people worked for the campaign, but most people only agitated for election reform AFTER the election.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

19. Pardon; must have misunderstood your post.

[ginnyinWI]

26. New era, old campaign style.

Cahill and all were operating on a pre-9/11 campaign model. What was most important post 9/11 was a show of strength. I know they tried--the convention was a pretty good show of strength. But they kept on talking about the economy, when people were first and foremost worried about homeland security and terrorists. It should have been more about Kerry's strength of will and less about his great ideas on domestic issues.

[saracat]

28. That is also very true!

[Warpy]

9. Bullcrap. I blame the DNC

They'd been warned for four years about those voting machines. They knew there had been massive fraud in Florida in 2000. They knew there had been massive fraud with those voting machines in Georgia in 2002.

They did nothing.

They know that the exit polls, accruate for every single elction leading up to 2004, were wildly off and that the polls favored Bush to the point of irrationality. They know about the Sproul organization's policy of destroying voter applications from Democrats. They know about Blackwell. They know about the illegal voter purges. They know about the lack of voting booths in Dem areas and the long lines.

They're doing nothing, with the exception of a few Representatives and one Senator.

The time has long since passed when these old boys should rest on their laurels of being the party of working Americans up through the 1960s. They are going to have to stand for something besides yuppies, globalism, corporations, and the status quo.

We did our part. We registered, agitated, and got out the vote. Don't blame us.

[saracat]

21. They Knew, but we didn't make it an election issue.

Look at how many people even on DU and in the Party itself honestly believe Bush got more votes! That is why election reform is NOT a priority!

[ClassWarrior]

10. BULLSHIT. The blame lies squarely with the Radical RW...

...and their Corporate Media Whores.

NGU.

[KittyWampus]

12. Oh Please, They Didn't Back Off At The Last Minute. That Is A Lie

what purpose does it serve to post a lie?

[saracat]

14. That is what Jesse Jackson stated.Why would he lie?

[seito]

20. I must have missed something

It is my understanding that Senator Boxer agreed ahead of time to be the sole Senator to sign the objection. She stated publicly that only one Senator was necessary and that we should not concern ourselves with the vote count.

[saracat]

23. I read that too, but I read it after Jesse made his statement.

He made it at the rally. it was reported. I feel both versions are true. The others may have backed off after a discussion of wether their signatures were necessary as it would only be symbolic! Who knows?

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. Your posts seem

negative at the wrong time, saracat, and negative at the wrong time.

[saracat]

54. What is negative about saying we must do more of what we did last week?

It isn't negative to say we must unite and be LOUD instead of blaming Kerry. The electorate DID NOT make election reform an issue.To those that did ,I say thanks. But most of us concentrated primarily on getting our candidate elected and only were somewhat worried about fraud or supression. All I am saying is if we make things more of an issue, the legislators might listen. Thry began to listen when we jammed their switchboard.

[Blue_In_AK]

25. Right again, Seito n/t

[saracat]

30. Seito is right but Jesse did also say that!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. How did 'we' let them pull the 'not enough voting machines'-scam?!

It disturbs me that professional activists like Jesse Jackson who have been dealing with vote suppression for years didn't demand to know the number of machines to be used BEFORE THE ELECTION and publicaly call for it LOUDLY so the SOS's knew they couldn't get away with it!

Was he also distracted by the invisible corrupt software issue that absorbed all our attention as Bev Harris sucked the oxygen from the issue and went MIA?

It seems the old analog tried-and-true methods used to keep the poor from voting worked as well as the new improved Diebold method.

Now even white people know how this is done and we should be ready for this crap BEFORE it happens because there seems to be no remedy after the fact.

The Gropenfuhrer is calling for special 'elections' here in CA since anything 'voted' on can simply be stolen. Shit, here it comes again!

[sandnsea]

18. We live in a democracy

Which means that in order to get anything accomplished, it is necessary to have majority support. What would have happened if voting reform had been approached on a nonpartisan basis? What would have happened if we'd said it is just wrong for two corporations to have control of 80% of the voting machines and for the software to be secret? Most Americans don't have that much trust in corporations, no matter their political views.

So is it our fault? Maybe. But not just in the way you suggest. Did anybody contact Republicans on these voting machines? Did framing it as Republicans rigging the election actually hurt the cause? Do you not think local Republicans can understand the implications of corporate machines in primaries and downticket elections?

For every person who screams about Democrats who "cross the aisle" to get legislation passed, it's time to understand election reform won't happen until we get some people who are grown up enough to cross the aisle themselves. Use the claims made by the Washington State Republicans, use the errors and overturned elections regardless of the party. Follow John Kerry's lead and stop yelling "stolen election" and start yelling "election integrity". Otherwise, don't be surprised when nothing changes.

[seito]

24. Don't forget about the screw up in NC

Because the machines did not have an audit-able trail, all those votes were lost.

Framing this issue properly is ESSENTIAL. Not all Republicans back ** and his radical agenda. Not all Republicans are corrupt. This is something that we need to realize.

Voter rights and Election integrity is a non-partisan issue. We have to make ALL of our representatives understand this.

[saracat]

27. This is also true Sand and-Sea.

I don't have any real faith in bipartisan ship but one has to try. People must ,however, realize that something was wrong with this election, whether"stolen" or not in order to want to do something about election reform!If they believe that there were only certain irregularities that would not have changed the outcome, why bother to fix it? We might have a better argument with voter suppression but unless it is their ass on the line they don't seem to care about that either. The best thing we have going for us with the repugs is the Washington State election.That caught their attention!

[sandnsea]

33. Snowball effect

First, you have to face the painful truth that most people are just as happy with either a Republican or Democrat. All Americans are basically good and want the best interest of the country. I don't think that's true, but that's a different fight to fight.

Stolen elections don't matter to these people or even make any sense because we're all one big happy family to them anyway. Voting and a basic sense of fair play DOES matter. "Integrity" matters. Being the "best" country/democracy in the world matters. Shame them into reform. That's why all these machine failures matter, we're supposed to be the technological geniuses. I'll tell you what else matters, Four Billion Dollars matters. Between the machine failures, lack of machines, lost absentee ballots, provisional ballot irregularities; this is what we got for Four Billion Dollars authorized in HAVA???

There's ways to frame this to get the people to listen. Stolen elections isn't it. Not unless we can get the code that proves it happened. Or get memos that prove conspiracy on the other issues.

[cry baby]

46. You are right, the only way it will even come out of committee

is to have the repubs support. Maybe those of us in the red states can find out if our congresspeople are on this committee and contact them. Does anyone know which committee deals with the voter issues?

[sandnsea]

48. Committee on House Administration

http://www.house.gov/cha/

Election Assistance Commission
http://www.eac.gov/

There's a letter in the Committee web site on provisional ballots. Provisionals are a state issue. We should have known that two years ago and worked to get the state laws changed. That's where we're falling down, not working within the system. You can damned well know Republicans don't have that problem.

[cry baby]

49. I will write my legislators and try to push them to visit the issue.

All red-staters should write and MOVE THIS THING OUT OF COMMITTEE to the floor for debate.

Edited to say thank you to sandnsea!

[Der Blaue Engel]

29. No, put the blame where it really belongs: With the criminals who

perpetrated this fraud.

Saracat, we have been building momentum throughout this process. It peaked on January 6, and we just have to make sure that we don't give up in despair simply because we won a small victory and not the ultimate victory.

I don't blame anyone who either didn't believe, or didn't think fraud was as much of a threat as it turned out to be, and I don't even blame those who aren't convinced yet.

I CERTAINLY don't blame Kerry. I have plenty of reasons to believe in him, but if anyone needs one, how about the simple reason that the freepers LOVE IT when we turn on him.

The odds have been stacked against us. But we built momentum following November 2 that culminated in the action on January 6. This is just the beginning.

Yes, we must continue to raise our voices. If we give up now and accept defeat just because the bullies hold the power, we don't deserve democracy. When that happens, when everyone gives up, THEN we can blame ourselves.

Blaming ourselves after a victory is demoralizing. I say we deserve a screaming high-five.

edited for typo and to add final thought

[saracat]

31. Right on DBA ! I don't really mean to place "blame" But to ask people

unite the way we did last week.There is power in numbers and what we did was awesome!

[Der Blaue Engel]

32. Yes it was!

We ROCK!

:D :yourock:

[SnoopDog]

34. Thats like saying it is the fans fault...

for not having their baseball team win the game. We are on their side. We buy a ticket to watch the game. We buy concessions to support the stadium and the football team. We scream and yell to help win the game. We write Fan letters to let them know we are on their side.

But it is the owners, managers, coaches, captains, and team members who actually play the game. Why did the team manager not yell and scream that the other team was cheating? Why did they not protest for a fair game? Why are the umpires and referees looking the other way and not calling obvious infractions?

Why did the captain of the team not defend himself against the fraudulent allegations made by the other team's captain. Why did the captain not flaunt his winning record to everybody?

Did our team throw the game?

[MoonRiver]

36. Excellent analogy.

I haven't responded to this extremely offensive thread because I couldn't imagine how to do it without becoming hysterical. I have worked my arse off since 2000 to set things right and get a Dem in the WH. I will never accept responsibility for this stolen election, especially when my Democratic leaders, and presidential candidate, chose to put their heads in the sand regarding the clear and obvious danger of Repuke election fraud.

[saracat]

37. MyPetRock,

I am so sorry. I did not blame those who worked! I worked too! But in the case of election reform, we weren't as LOUD as we were on Jan,5th and 6th! I just ask that we continue to work togrther and be loud!

[SnoopDog]

39. Saracat, I know you are true blue and a fighting Dem...

The most wonderful thing that has happened is that the members of DU are united. We have achieved patriot status. They (the bad guys) are afraid of us because we are a united front.

So, yes, we must work together and fight for our democracy. Are job will never be done because, when/if we ever have a Dem in the White house, we still and always need to voice our opinion.

[MoonRiver]

41. No need to apologize. We're all stressed out here.

I just don't know how we, here on DU, and I personally to everybody I encountered, could have screamed louder! We shouldn't feel guilty, and obviously we have to persevere. I need a while to get over what happened on January 6th. The only Dem I can support in the future is a very strong progressive. I hope the DNC hears my and many others' pleas in this regard. But the bottom line is we're all in this together. The animosity on DU is starting to make me sick.

:grouphug:

[saracat]

52. I am not and will never cite the activists as guilty.

All I am saying is that many didn't consider election reform an issue until "after" the election. Many did and those I congratulate, but we truly united on the issue on Jan.6th. That was magnificent! I am only saying think what we can do if we keep united and stay loud!

[MoonRiver]

57. Yes, we gotta keep up the loud and determined demands

for honest elections! If we don't have that, all is truly lost.

[SnoopDog]

38. Thank you.... I too almost did not respond to this thread...

But finally it came to me what I wanted to say.

Want to start a new team?...!

[MoonRiver]

45. Yes, I would like to start a new team.

Hopefully that would be a new improved progressive Democratic Party, but I'm skeptical.

[mdb]

35. Agree.

But let's not focus on the past and let's look forward to the future. Let's do exactly what many if not all have done recently in getting the word out about election fraud. We need to do the same thing with mailings and all to the media and politicians and anyone else you think would help with reform.

Right now Repubs in the senate don't even want to hear about election reform. You can't even bring it to the table for a hearing to a vote on the issue. The Repubs are being smart in this way. This way when they don't have a vote on an issue there is no questioning of why don't you want fair elections?

[Bill Bored]

40. You are correct, but no point crying over spilled milk

Go to my thread and take some action! I'm still working on my letter to the Republican leadership who let the vote become unverifiable. The Dems are not to blame for that. They tried to fix the system and were blocked in the House and Senate. I've sent plenty of mail to my own reps already. Now it's time to lay the blame on those who really deserve it.
Frist, Hastert and DeLay.

And please work at the state level where election laws are made! We don't need no stinkin' Congress to get verified voting, although they could help.

Also, urge the House Judiciary Republicans to join with the Dems to investigate Ohio and any other states where irregularities took place.

I'm working on one letter that encompasses all of this to send to Republicans. I'm not the only one. See this thread:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x264034>

And thanks for your post saracat!

[Eric J in MN]

44. I did all I could. Both to spread information about

verified-voting and to promote John Kerry.

[saracat]

56. And for that you should be thanked! I am grateful for all the effort!

[seabeyond]

47. i think bush himself gets some responsibility in this too, he was

the one after all that committed the theft, that is dishonest. that lies. he is the one that continually pumped the fear in the american people. he is the one that abuses his power

what i find interesting is how cleverly bush has created an action and then everyone blames themselves, blames their person. kerry's fault.

kinda like my car got stolen out of garage. well hell, i could blame self, brother left garage door open, i left keys in car, a lite shining right on it saying take me take me,............but then ultimately the person that took my car is responsible for the theft. regardless of my action

i didnt committ the crime, i wont take responsibility for the crime. i will place it on the thieves shoulder

[rfrrfrrfr]

50. Actually

Neither Kerry nor the Democrats are to blame. The MSM in indirect colusion with the right wing are to blame. The vast majority of those who voted for Bush are uninformed and clueless about what the current republican party stands for.

My Brother is a perfect example. He voted for Kerry because he is worried about the draft, yet he voted all other races republican, because he has bought into the image the repukes are selling of themselves. A fiscally conservative,for small non-intrusive government party that wants government out of the lives of everyday citizens.

Thats the bag of lies the republicans represent themselves as by using the few decent and moderates in the party as a front. Their National convention was a prime example of this. They are the masters of illusion and misdirection They tell the people they are one thing when they are in fact the opposite and the MSM which no longer does its job lets them get away with it.

The Press,for the most part, which should be yelling and screaming you just lied every time anyone, democrat or republican, lies just sit there and repeat verbatim what each side says.

We are where the repulicans were in the early eighties. It is going to be a long long hard fight to put some spine back into the MSM as well as our leadership.

[pacalo]

51. Good post, saracat.

I agree with you to a large extent, but I truly believe most of the problem is with the corporate-bought media. Sadly, those wearing blinders naively believe anything that is recited on tv news, perhaps unaware that the corporate media thrives on defense contracts & will do whatever it takes to keep the money coming in. This is quite an obstacle when we try to get our message across (i.e., the Republican congresspeople & corporate-owned media refer to our dissent as wild conspiracy theories). Perhaps it's time to focus on making some noise about the corporate-bought media, as well. I think it's as high a priority as election reform.

[saracat]

55. That would probably be more exciting to people as well!

Election reform has always been a bit dry. Media has some meat to it. Both need to be done.