"I am a lawyer, and I'm going to deal with evidence..." (Cam Kerry)

[RaulVB]

I really thank William Pitt for his excellent interview. If not for him we wouldn't be learning about the truth of the matter.

Cam Kerry's quote I guess explains what's going on here:

"At the end of the day, no. I think it was closer, but I am a lawyer, and I'm going to deal with evidence. I have to deal with what I think a court would do. That's the kind of judgments I make. That was a judgment I participated in. A lot of people who know how to count votes, how votes are counted, people who went through Florida in 2000 and have been through other recounts, have been through a lot of tough battles, would have loved nothing better than to do battle with Karl Rove and James Baker again, to take them on and give them their own back.

But we looked at it hard, and there just wasn't the kind of razor-thin margin that we had in Florida in 2000 to work with, or that Christine Gregoire was dealing with in Washington State. The three million vote margin nationally made it difficult, but there was enough of a margin in Ohio that I think we could have closed that margin but would still have been some tens of thousands of votes short."

* OK, so, I'm a Chilean trained lawyer myself. I went to a couple of pretty good Law Schools, I've seen evidence of fraud.

Am I better that anybody else, that is not a lawyer but knows fraud took place?

NO!

Its is clear to me, at this point, that the biggest obstacle on the investigation is to break the "shield" that people like Cam Kerry has put around Senator Kerry.

Ok now?

IS NOT JOHN KERRY'S FAULT. His "people" won't let him act by arguing against what we have to say, because they think "there is not enough evidence..."

Is very simple!

I'm amazed at the weak argument used by Cam Kerry, the same corporate media mantra about "the 3 millions of votes of difference..."

You know guys, honestly, after reading this I'm quite frustrated and considering my options here.

I don't like to waste my time figting lost causes...

Take care.

[New Earth]

1. what?

dude FORGET about Cam Kerry, John Kerry, Ronald McDonald Kerry.

it's about the people. and who fights for the people's rights? the people do. and if you aren't going to, then maybe it is better that you give up.

[RaulVB]

3. So, a Democratic candidate doesn't represent the people?

If they run is because they ARE RUNNING FOR THE PEOPLE, correct?

Who cares about what a popular movement may or may not achieve if, finally, that group obviously will not be heard BY THE GUYS RUNNING FOR THE HIGHEST OFFICE?

[New Earth]

6. so that's reason for giving up?

i would think that would give someone more reason to fight for what they want.

[RaulVB]

9. Faye, I didn't say that I'm giving up...

I'm frustrated by Cam Kerry's weak-knee argumentation, that's all...

[New Earth]

11. then wtf does this mean?

"I don't like to waste my time figting lost causes...

Take care."

[RaulVB]

13. That Cam Kerry makes look like is lost!

When the damn thing is right there at hand and you can almost touch it!

Hey now, there is more than one line on my note...;)

[Eloriel]

26. Would you post a link to that interview please?

Yeah, I'm sure it's elsewhere, but post it here if you will so no one has to go looking for it. Thanks.

[RaulVB]

28. Link here:

Here it is:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/011105W.shtml

[KoKo]

58. Candidates stopped running "for the people' decades ago..We just

didn't notice it until the last few years..sadly. That's why we have to organize the grassroots efforts. To take our party back so that it does represent "We the People."

[oldtime dfl_er]

4. I LOVE this response

It IS about the people, at this point. Never let us forget that!



www.cafepress.com/showtheworld

[RaulVB]

7. How is the people going to put their guy on the White House?

The President of the US still seats in the Oval Office, right?

[Vincardog]

2. WE do not have to prove fraud

They have to prove it was a fair open election.
It was not. Why would they suppress paper trails unless they planned on cheating? Resist the occupation VIVA

[merh]

19. Apparently you are mistaken. We have to prove the fraud and

if there had been no fraud, the outcome would have been different. I wish it were as easy as you say.

[Vincardog]

36. Apparently Merh you are willing to buy into their logic.

I refuse to accept the responsibility to prove what they have fought to hard to cover up. If the exit polls were good enough for the Ukraine they are good enough for the USA. IF the Fascist pigs want to govern me they need to prove the election was FAIR. If not it was electoral FRAUD. The fact that the Thugs in charge control the Police, the Courts and every aspect of Government doesn't make them valid leaders. The fact that they resort to Vote suppression and outright theft proves they do not believe in their so called mandate. By choosing to allow them to go on unopposed you are complicit in their fraud. I say we have to fight the deceit and lies at every turn. Otherwise we lose our right to call ourselves civilized.

[merh]

37. It would be nice if it worked your way, but we have to follow the law.

Sad as that might be, that is the cold hard truth. I am not complacent in their fraud when I state the obvious. Do I wish it weren't so? Yes, of course, but wishing won't make it happen.

[Vincardog]

45. For this cattle man it does work my way. It was FRAUD I refuse to call

aWoL legitimate.

[Mistwell]

60. Stop with the Ukraine Analogy

Please stop using the Ukraine analogy. Even looking just barely below the surface will show you how badly that analogy backfires.

Hint: An analysis of the second Ukraine election, where there was no fraud and a massive amount of independant observers confirming the election and all balloting was done with a paper trail, shows that their exit polls WERE OFF BY MORE THAN THE MARGIN OF ERROR.

If Ukraine is a valid analogy, then the people claiming exiting polling is not an accurate way of predicting an outcome when the outcome is relatively close are proven to be correct.

That may in fact be the case...but I hate to see people who do not believe that continue to make the faulty claim. Find a better analogy than Ukraine, because it actually proves the opposite of your claim.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. They impeached a President for a stain on a blue dress

yet we've got 1000's of documents, stats, voter affidavits, press reports, video and much more and Cam doesn't think he's got enough to even try to win a case? Give me a break.

[RaulVB]

10. Exactly!

That was "good enough" to impeach Clinton.

For Cam Kerry that wouldn't be good enough, then, if he wants to be consistent.

[mdb]

8. It's been known

Kerry's lawyers are not investigators into evidence fraud. True they deal with the evidence once or if it is found, but as far as finding this evidence... well... that is a different story.

[mirrera]

12. I agree!

It is an irony that because the cheat was so big, it couldn't possibly be a cheat. The machine count is where the large margins came from. It doesn't take many per machine to add up to 3 million votes in a country as big as ours. If our Democratic leaders really do not get that, we have a hard 2 year battle ahead of us. They will parade new machines with nifty receipts as the answer. Receipts do us no good unless we actually count them. Look how hard Ohio fought a hand re-count. If we do not get our Democrats to understand the problem, they will surely miss the solution. Paper ballots, hand counted in public view. Cost effective, and the Canadians can teach us how!

[RaulVB]

15. That's correct

Is an amazingly skewed rationale.

"It's so big that can't possibly be a cheat"???

I mean...:wtf:

[Eloriel]

24. Yeah, it's what's known as "The Big Lie" --

Lies so big they must be true. FWIW, here's HITLER on THE BIG LIE:

The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, because the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad.

The primative simplicity of their minds renders them more easy victims of a big lie than a small one, because they often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell big ones.

Such a form of lying would never enter their heads. They never would credit others with the possibility of such great impudence as the complete reversal of facts.

Even explanations would long leave them in doubt and hesitation, and any trifling reason would dispose them to accept a thing as true.

Something therefore always remains and sticks from the most impudent of lies, which all bodies and individuals concerned in the art of lying in this world know all too well, and therefore they stop at nothing to achieve this end.

Adolph Hitler in "Mein Kampf"

[ClarkUSA]

17. Cam Kerry Hasn't Wanted To Get Involved Since Nov. 4

I know. I wrote to him personally. It's all about "moving on to 2008" for the
Kerrys and their army of advisors, lawyers, and consultants. This is just the latest
rationale.

[RaulVB]

18. They're so blind that is almost beyond normal behavior (n/t)

[mirrera]

20. That is what scares me...

It does NOT seem normal. I feel like they know some secret thing that is too big for the little people! GRRR

[Amaryllis]

48. Yes! I have been shocked to find out how little how many of them actually

know about all the issues withe E-voting. They mostly seem to think a paper trail will fix it. One of our biggest challenges is to educate them.
See this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x277696
YOu can vote on who should be DNC chair and also send an email on what you think needs to happen to fix the Dem party.
We need Dean! He is the only one who gets the e-voting issue.

[ClarkUSA]

54. I support Dean and I have contacted all my state's DNC members...

I asked Chris Heinz TWICE today regarding Simon Rosenberg's stand/plans for
election reform and he did not reply, despite his answering other people's comments, questions. Interesting.

See #20 and #141

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1485698&mesg_id=1485698

[understandinglife]

14. Join "The Bush Opposition!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x275412

More soon.

"Its About Bush!"

[RaulVB]

16. I know it!

But some guys "on important positions" just make my days so..."happy"

[berniew1]

21. There was systematic widespread vote machine fraud, dirty tricks and suppr

systematic suppression of minority voters and students. That is well documented. There were also many thousands of votes of eligible voters(mostly minorities) rejected for arbitrary reasons(mainly because they were mostly Dem) and many thousands of undervotes(hanging chad) that were mostly Kerry votes. Given the huge amount of irregularities it is hard to ascertain an exact accurate vote count and the winner if the election had been a "fair election" with a fair count. But do we allow such massive fraud, dirty tricks, and suppression of minorities just because its difficult to know the amount of votes that were lost due to these factors?
If so, the countries in a heap of trouble down the line.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

[berniew1]

22. Systematic vote machine fraud, dirty tricks, and suppression in all swing

states;
and Kerry likely won New Mexico and perhaps Florida if not for the widespread fraud and suppression documented in those states and other states. Florida had a huge amount of fraud, dirty tricks, suppression

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html (Florida & N. Mexico)
http://www.flcv.com/snohomis.html (Washington)
http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html (Pennsylvania)
http://www.flcv.com/orangets.html (California)
http://www.flcv.com/neworlea.html (Louisiana)
etc.

[librechik]

23. Catch 22--we needed an investigation w subpoena power to get

evidence--he won't back an investigation without evidence--this is nonsense on its face. There was plenty of probable cause to request warrants, discovery etc. Of course we can't guarantee a conviction without the investigation, no matter how much evidence we have!

If this were a rape case, Cam says he won't do the DNA test since all he has is the sperm sample! Sperm is nothing, we need DNA! But the suspect is dead set against the DNA test, in fact, OMG, the suspect is the District Attorney! Oh, the victim and several hundred witnesses swear it was a rape? Cam won't know for sure until after the investigation, which he will not allow to go forward. It would be embarrassing to accuse the suspect without proof.

And this is a prosecutor?

[KittyWampus]

25. Nowheres Does He Say He Won't Back An Investigation W/O Evidence

so it's Cam's statements that are nonsense on its face.

[imenja]

27. the point is, their only interest was in Kerrry's candidacy

Not the Democratic process or voters rights. Kerry figured he couldn't pull off a victory, so he pulled up stakes. I witnessed it here in Florida. I was trying to pursue a complaint of a voter being denied a provisional ballot in one the precincts I coordinated on election day, and the law called back several days later to say they were doing nothing about voting problems. I went to the local campaign headquarters on Nov. 4, and everyone and everything was gone. One guy was there unplugging the last computer. It was obvious to me then they weren't going to pursue any claims because the only concern was Kerry's own race and political future.
How you claim this is somehow due to every other influence besides Kerry strikes me as very strange. The man is perfectly intelligent and capable of surveying strategy himself. Clearly he determined he couldn't win. End of story. He didn't care about anything the rest.
I'm sorry to say that several of us told you two months ago that this was a lost cause. You decided to hold out a fantasy, and it seems to me you still are by claiming this is about anything and everything other than Kerry himself. He's a politician, not the Messiah.

To put your outrage into action on election reform, sign up here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x262387

[ClarkUSA]

55. BINGO and your words ring truer than any excuses from "No Surrender"

[Pooka Fey]

29. Raul, I agree entirely !! I spent 4 hours writing this post today,

and I'm looking for lawyers to weigh in. It is sinking like a stone in this Forum. I would very much appreciate it if you could take a look at it to see if a class-action lawsuit is possible for violations of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
Thanks,
Pooka Fey

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x276145

edited for sp.

[RaulVB]

30. Looking into it

Thanks for posting this and your approach makes sense, indeed.

The laws are there. They are not enforced, unfortunately.

Raul

[Pooka Fey]

33. Thanks for your time. :-)

[zapped 1]

31. SO WHY THEN DID YOU SCREAM AT ME

and curse when I posted if anyone had read the article on David Wade's rolling his eyes when the subject of election fraud was brought up by the article's author?
What I wish you and everyone else would start screaming about is how the Fascists can arrest a woman for uttering the words "Did not".

[RaulVB]

32. My apologies. I didn't know then what I know now (n/t)

[zapped 1]

34. no worries

and I do hope that you decide to stay here. You're a great asset here and I know that many would agree. Tomorrow is another day.

[DearAbby]

35. Problem is that it has to link up to * co themselves, not just a bunch of

GOP zealots acting on their own, to get their guy in the whitehouse. :grr:

[fatal101]

38. Great

Great!

[WilliamPitt]

39. But did you see it on November 3rd?

[RaulVB]

40. I live in Oregon, Will...

Arguably the best state to live in, right now.

No fraud here. Pretty much impossible due to the very secure system in place.

Ballots are mailed and they get to the people waiting for them.

Not like in Florida.

[WilliamPitt]

41. You miss my point

Did you see enough on November 3rd, from reports nationally, to make you think you had evidence good enough for a courtroom? It took me a week to really see enough to even write about, much less sue on.

[RaulVB]

43. Ah, well, sorry, this is my personal timeline,

- Zogby has Kerry tied with "*" at 3:15 PM, Pacific time, November 2nd.

- Jeb Bush is on the air saying that "he knows his brother is doing great in Florida, 20.000 extra votes for him in Pasco County...", about 4:00 PM Pacific time

- Zogby calls 311 electoral votes for Kerry (5 PM) Pacific time. He is receiving data.

- All Networks have showed Kerry behind from the beginning. I started to wonder, how?

They are receiving exit poll data. Not a single public statement, disavowing the exit polls, to avoid any conflict?

- Last batch of exit polls have Kerry ahead. There is common surprise between reporters of major papers that are looking at the data and then can't explain the "contradictions."

- Mitofsky is SELLING information to the networks. Now he claims that the EXIT POLLS ARE NOT ACCURATE."

- I assume that the last batch of exit polling was the call to kick the fix in. I've worked with candidates in Chile.

The only time an exit poll did not work there was in 1990. They were manipulated to blast the right wing candidates.

Are they accurate to the last percentage point?

No.

But this IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHERE THEY FAIL ALWAYS.

- I got home that night and started to listen to reports about screen design and "mistakes" of voters trying to vote for Kerry in Florida.

- I saw the bogus numbers posted in OHIO with my own eyes.

Cobb and Badnarik got over 32.000 votes in a OHIO county for about 40 minutes. Later deleted.

- About 800.000 votes involved in "machine errors".

The last American "election" would not be certified in Chile.

Is all I have to say.

[jsw_81]

50. Agreed

Oregon rocks!

[kk897]

51. anyone could have seen it a MONTH before the election...

...and even the Kerry camp saw it before the election. Why else have the challenge fund and the army of lawyers supposedly "on the ground" in Ohio, Florida, and other hotspots?

I have, I don't know, about 75 articles I clipped after about Oct.20 or so, when I got a cool app called NoteTaker, each of which details election fraud going on --oh, make that various illegal activities connected to the (then) upcoming election. This was just sort of leisurely research for my own edification and education. Someone making a more concerted effort, or employing a professional clipping service (like I'm sure big time candidates must do), would have had access to hundreds more.

The real theft of the election took place before anyone entered the voting booths.

You can't tell me Kerry, or Kerry's people, or the leaders of this country, didn't know that. I mean, I was just googling around a couple hours a day for a few weeks. Surely these people hire researchers, have staffers or interns or something, to keep tabs on such things!

[Straight Shooter]

52. Never assume anything.

What's obvious to you, and to us on DU, can be (and apparently was) overlooked by those who were in the best position to prevent it, or to aggressively pursue prosecuting it if evidence surfaced.

AFAIC, plenty of evidence has surfaced. I'm still waiting for those Ohio voters to have their civil rights addressed and justice dispensed. That is Kerry's job right now, "regardless of the outcome of the election."

[Machiavelli05]

42. 3 recomendations

1.) get a grip
2.) get a new hobby
3.) get a new topic to endlessly beat - this horse is dead, has been for quite a while. Good job!

[RaulVB]

44. Thanks for you worthless post...

Keep up the "good work..."

[Imagevision]

46. oh I just can't wait to vote in 2008? -- ha!!

Diebold will do my voring for me...(and you too)!!

[ALRepublican2]

47. Purge Him to to Keep them clean - Kerry

I can't understand it either.

If one is going to argue why only one senator was going
to stand for fear of losing their seat in the house, how is one
supposed to get people to stand up for what is right?

There are many an excuse to hang ones hat on for not Purging those who didn't stand to vote in favor of our cause.

I suppose when one doesn't train his/her Senators/House Members for not standing up when others did, they might again say, "well I didn't get voted out of office for not standing up, so I think I'll just say a couple words in favor and vote against it anyway or better yet just not show up."

Purging is extreme, but it is the only way to get those in power to get off their duffs and take a stand. It's not for being negative. After all, I hear it put John Quincy Adams back in the right direction with his constituents against slavery.

[jsw_81]

49. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin evidence

Just say "I believe" a few thousand times and we'll wake up one morning to find President Kerry in the Oval Office. At least that's what it seems that most DUers believed over these past few months. It's actually kind of sad but also fascinating to see how partisans will attempt to ignore reality for as long as possible; I'm sure we would have seen similar behavior from the freeps had Bush lost.

[Sleepless In NY]

53. The "people" may be fighting, but our democratic "leadership" isn't

Kerry conceeded way too quickly. I doubt any amount of lawyers had seen enough to say there was or wasn't "evidence of fraud" in such a short period of time. What was it? One day? Come on. Even after the concession Kerry & Co were barely visible in Ohio.

Now Conyers says the investigation is ongoing, so how can anyone make a true assessment of what really happened in 2004? To top it off we had to literally beg to even get one senator to stand. Thank you Senator Boxer. And the only one to vote for it, so who are we kidding? The democrats are saying in essence, we lost, accept it and move on. And maybe someday when they have the "time" they will work on voter irregularities. You know like they did 4 years ago.

The "People" have alot of fight, but our leadership doesnt. They were afraid of looking like "sore losers". You know after the 2000 election they had enough reason to say " you pulled a fast one on us then, but you know what? Not this time. We don't Trust you & we are really going to look into it" And they would have been justified.

Republicans had no problem overturning a duly elected Grey Davis. They didn't care what anyone said or called them, they went after what they wanted and got it.

Our leadership has been bending over to bush since 9/11. So many things they could have gone after him for. And justifiably too. But they didn't want to look "partisan". Yet Republicans used 9/11 like a mop and to their advantage.

This democratic mantra of "can't we all get along?" is costing us. And if you dare to question our leadership..its called bashing. I dont know too many people who are happy with this party right now, but if you can't express your displeasure, how on earth is anything going to change? Either hold their feet to the fire or we are going nowhere.

[myschkin]

56. We have to inform them fully...

Freeman, Baiman, BBV, glitches 90 % in favour of Bush (nationwide), Clinton Curtis a.s.l.

As long as they don´t see the big picture, as long they will believe, well 3 millions votes...

That´s why

http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/index.php?mforum=mtf&sid=f6fb59a9cdf20b356ff78dc2c8a438e7

is so important (DU information campaign)

Please sign in.

[59sunburst]

57. Warning! Contains Satire.

An unvarnished view:

http://home.att.net/~sunburst59/Interview_from_Camp_Kerry_Satire.htm

[KoKo]

59. Did you write that! OMG.....it's too funny....I wonder if you could post

it separately...It's a real Lampoon! We are all too serious here...it's good to poke fun.

[59sunburst]

61. I did write it.

I posted it separately last night but it was deleted.

Thanks for your comments.

You're welcome to pass it along if you like.

[KoKo]

62. I was going to add that you might need to check with Admins..but it's

a shame it was deleted....but I guess it would attract flame throwers and some folks would take it personally, even though it's gallow's humor. It's too sophisticated to be freep stuff...but one can't be too careful around here.

[59sunburst]

63. Stay Tuned

Next we'll have a talk with the parakeet.

[McCamy Taylor]

64. "I'm a Writer, and I am going to keep telling this story until people hear

it." I know that says it for me, and I am willing to bet that this sums it up for a lot of us at DU.

Think about what writers have accomplished in the past...and that was before the days of the Internet. Go back and read Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson and the rest. Better yet, quote them freely in response to what the Bushies are doing to our country. It is damn hard for those flag waving traitors in the White HOuse to Dis Tom Paine (though I have heard them try).

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

Thomas Paine, The American Crisis, No. 1, December 19, 1776

[FloridaCrat]

65. How much money is left in the "Kerry Lawyers Fund"? The only decent thing

to do with it is donate it to those orgs that are still fighting for the votes to be counted!

Thank you Raul, for posting. And Thank you Will for the interview. I have a much better sense of the real situation now.

I saw the folks, a lot of them lawyers, in DC last week and I have to tell you they could use some money and support - not to get stabbed in the back. Jon Bonifaz, Susan Pruitt, Cliff Arnebeck and several others spoke with such fire and conviction of the evidence they have collected. The New Mexico attorney has a bunch of evidence of "significant number of votes that weren't counted" and has been working for 2 months solid on the election vote issues there. Maybe they went to a different law school than Cam Kerry.

I didn't realize that Cam Kerry was the gatherer of all Election irregularity evidence, the Judge and Jury, all rolled into one special adviser who has the ear of the candidate who wanted the job. If Mr. Richardson will allow a re-vote in New Mexico, will there be one? H....s..t

I think Cam gave some bum advice. I thought John Kerry understood that it was going to be an ugly fight, and if that's what was needed, then our Vietnam Hero was the best person to have leading the fighters to fight the fight. What does it mean, "I've got your back" in this scenario?

Mr. Kerry should take all the money he collected from individuals, including me, for the purpose of building his 17,000 Lawyer base. I feel betrayed by the Kerry's - I can't imagine why so many of us should have worked so hard for this election, if they were going to "give up in overtime", as Jesse Jackson said.

Sorry, but Cam and John Kerry didn't live up to their end of the deal - they should donate the money, all of it, to the organizations that understand the responsibility associated with "trust". Lots of us are unemployed and really didn't need to be sending $50 to the guy who is already pretty wealthy. I'm sorry if I sound bitter, I just want something productive to be done with that money. Not to go to "Kerry in 2008". h....s..t