This is so depressing. I'm batting .500

[Pacifist Patriot]

I spoke to two people today about vulnerability in election systems. I got through to one person. The other shrugged and said, "Whatever. I just don't care. It's alarmist sore loser stuff."

Aggghhhh! The latter was my idiot brother-in-law, but I know he's not alone. Even though I pointed out that if only one vote were switched in each machine in each precinct, one municipal race and three county races would have been overturned in the last election AND would have been outside the margin requiring a recount, he still didn't care. He shrugged it off!

Thus far, this has been typical of the response I've gotten when talking about transparent elections being necessary for the democratic process to succeed. Some people raise their eyebrows and say, "Holy smoke, I never thought of it that way." while the others shrug and couldn't care less. This is why dictatorships succeed.

Oh well, the Patriots scored first and the Colts practiced indoors all week. Maybe this Sunday won't be a complete wash. ;)

[Goldeneye]

1. Getting through to one person is good.

Hopefully the others will come around if we keep pushing this...

[BOSSHOG]

2. I hope your brother in law soon gets to

enjoy alarmist sore lose stuff real soon.

[ExclamationPoint]

3. Go Patriots!

The Pats heal all wounds. :)

[brindis_desala]

4. I wish when people discuss this issue they would

mention the fact that there were over 39,000 lodged complaints (vote switching, long lines, discarded registrations, last minute precinct switches, inadequate machines and provisionals etc, HOURS BEFORE the results were in. See what they say THEN!

[qwghlmian]

8. I think they would say

that 39,000 out of 100,000,000 is 0.04%.

[New Earth]

9. in other words

it's ok that 39,000 had problems voting?

you mean, it's ok? as in, don't worry about it? thanks for the reassurance! :hi:

[qwghlmian]

12. You said that it's ok that 39,000 had problems voting,

I didn't say that. You said not to worry about it, I didn't say it.

All I said is 39,000 is 0.04% of all voters. Do you agree? The fact that 0.04% of the voters had problems voting is problematic, but certainly not catastrophic. If it was even 0.5% that would start approaching some kind of significance.

[New Earth]

13. any problems whatsoever make a difference

in ANYTHING.

[Der Blaue Engel]

16. Now, Faye, are you daring to suggest that every single vote counts?

Why, that's like saying that bad things are bad, no matter how many bad things you are counting. We all know that 39,000 bad things are actually a good thing. (Well, I guess they are to someone, aren't they?)

Plus, since most of those 39,000 bad things happened to people voting for Kerry, it is clearly a sign from God.

:hi:

[New Earth]

17. LMAO!!!!

:hi:

[Laurab]

22. Yeah, do you think you live in a democracy or something?

How silly of you!

[kitkat65]

24. When Bad Votes Happen to Good People

[Pooka Fey]

15. Those were REPORTED complaints. Do you honestly believe

that EVERY VOTER who experienced problems filed a complaint?

[Time for change]

19. For every voter who lodged a complaint

there were probably hundreds of other problems that were never reported.

Furthermore, if machines were programmed to switch votes, which they almost certainly were, the great majority of voters would probably never know about it.

[NV Whino]

11. That's 39,000 complaints

not the number of people who were affected by the anomalies. One complaint of long lines could represent hundreds of people who didn't file a complaint. 39,000 complaints is pretty impressive.

[qwghlmian]

14. It would be misleading to say that there

were 39,000 serious complaints.

According to this: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/printer_120204Y.shtml

most of the complaints were "routine" and only 900 were "significant e-voting problems".

This is not to say that those 900 were not real. But it was not 39,000.

[brindis_desala]

18. you're obfuscating

Verified Voting ALONE had over 28,880. That does not take in Common Cause, Act or independent observations collated later. 39,000 is probably modest.
http://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation&cat=ALL&search=&go=Apply+filter&tab=ED04V

[Laurab]

23. Why am I not surprised

at the low post count? I mean, I'm not suggesting anything, mine is kinda low too, but my attitude when I first came here was somewhat different...

[madison2000]

5. There are a lot of people out there who don't realize how important it is

including people like my upstairs neighbor who is in his forties and has never voted because he is "not political". I actually think people have to be uncomfortable before they care and some are just too comfortable watching sports or reality tv and having a beer. Its up to the rest of us to make things right.

[Straight Shooter]

6. Not a "sore loser." It's righteous indignation.

I see your brother-in-law in a former life (bear with me) prior to the American Revolution. King George has many of the colonists rankled about taxation without representation. But your BIL looks at them, shrugs, and says, "Whatever. You guys are just being alarmist sore losers."

If someone calls me a sore loser, I respond with, "You just don't get it."

There's an old saying, you can't fight ignorance. AFAIC, the reason you can't fight it is because it never learns from its mistakes.

[LeeB]

30. "AFAIC" means what? I'm in a day-long brain stall. Sorry!

[icehenge]

32. AFAIK

Means, As Far As I Know
Not sure what the C means...

[SueZhope]

7. many people just cant even entertain the possibility

that there democracy is not as American as apple pie, many cant stomach
the idea that there pie might be poisoned . Its much easier to just
nay -say instead of even looking at it.

Today I saw my 92 mother-in-law.
I mentioned this to her a few weeks ago
and she just took it as reality , didn't even question me.
Today she kept repeating.
"They stole the election "

[anamandujano]

10. I get "stop Bush bashing" whenever I say anything

I don't even bring up the subject myself, only answer when the family says something ignorant in his defense.

I always mention the grandkids that will be packaged up and sent off to war in a few years. My brother's ears perked up a little. Since it's far off he doesn't see it as a possibility yet. Next time I'm going to mention the information they're collecting on all the kids in school for the draft.

They still don't mind that they're paying a fortune to fill up their huge cars and truck, that they resisted turning on the heat at Thanksgiving in their new lux house. My mother thinks she's so holy defending the unborn but doesn't flinch when I remind her that lots were killed along with the mothers and everyone else on the block with Bush's bombs. I do expect a small reaction when her social security check is cut. I'm hoping this project gets moving quickly.

Something personal will wake them up someday. It's a nightmare that they let him kill so many and only smarten up when it gets a little closer to home.

On the subject of depression. I'm hoping to emerge from 100% soon.

edit to add--on the stolen election, it would be futile to mention it. The response to the high cost of oil was that Bush doesn't have any control over it. My mother even laughed last night when I mentioned the name of my favorite website (Democratic Underground).

[Carolab]

20. Find a more receptive audience.

Sounds like your BIL is a thick-headed SOB; I'm guessing Repub. They DON'T care, as long as THEY "won" (or think they did).

You might try e-mailing this to him.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x287401

[kster]

21. I didn't try

to explain it,I told my bro-in-law that I thought that there was vote rigging in the last election. And asked if he would get behind a full investigation of the election, If it were to come about. He said he would . He's Catholic and Republican.

[rumpel]

25. Try these quotes from the Hearings in 2001 on election technology

there were 4 witnesses

The reports of problems we logged, have been expressed in Congress, these are no conspiracy theorists, these are testimonies.

The favorite excuse of our politicans having passed the HAVA Act, has in fact not set standards in any way, but has ordered research and allocated funds, and passed on the responsibility to individual States as I read the Act. ( I welcome other interpretation her is the link http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:h.r.3295.enr: )

Here is one section of the testimony by:

Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, Assistant Professor of Computer Sciences at Bryn Mawr College, is a nationally recognized expert on voting technologies and standards.  In October 2000, she successfully defended her Ph.D. thesis, “Electronic Vote Tabulation Checks & Balances.”

"Electronic balloting and tabulation makes the tasks performed by poll workers, challengers, and election officials  purely procedural, and removes any opportunity to perform bipartisan checks.  Any computerized election process is thus entrusted to the small group of individuals who program, construct and maintain the machines.  The risk that these systems may be compromised is present whether the computers are reading punched cards or optical scanned sheets, or are kiosk-style or Internet balloting systems."

"Now the computer industry has already established standards for secure system certification, mandated by Congress under the Computer Security Act of 1987.  NIST typically administers this certification for devices purchased by the Department of Defense.  Congress, though, exempted itself from compliance with the Act, hence they have never certified the accuracy and integrity of any computer-based voting systems used in Federal elections.  This loophole must be changed.  The existing standards are far from perfect, but they are the best assurance mechanism that the computer industry has at present.  (It is important to understand that the Federal Election Commission does not now have voting system standards in place.  Instead, the purchasers and vendors use an obsolete set of suggested practices that were never adopted by all of the States.) "

and this from

Dr. Doug Jones, Associate Professor of Computer Science at the University of Iowa, has served on the Iowa Board of Examiners for Voting Machines and Electronic Voting Systems since 1994, and has chaired the board since the fall of 1999.  This board, appointed by the Iowa Secretary of State, must examine and approve all voting machines before they can be offered for sale to county governments.  The board meets whenever a manufacturer wishes to offer a new voting machine or a new modification of an existing machine for sale in the state of Iowa


"Today, all new precinct-count voting machines are offered with communication options; this includes direct-recording voting machines, optical mark-sense ballot readers, and punched-card ballot readers. These allow the machines to electronically communicate the vote totals to a machine at the county level that computes county wide vote totals within minutes of the close of the polls."

"The use of a proprietary Microsoft operating system in a voting machine and the fact that the current standards provide us with no control over this use is particularly troublesome! Microsoft is currently in the midst of an antitrust case -- which is to say, it is in an adversary relationship with the Federal government! Thus, the company has great reason to be interested in the outcome of elections.

In fact, about a year ago, I remember hearing a Microsoft representative state that he hoped to delay hearings on their antitrust case until after the election because he believed that Microsoft would receive a more favorable hearing from a Bush administration, and I remember that, when asked about this, then candidate Bush confirmed that he did not favor the antitrust litigation.

Thus, we are in the bizarre situation that our current standards exempt large portions of software in voting machinery from inspection, where those portions happen to be made by an organization that has taken a partisan position in an upcoming political race!"

http://www.house.gov/science/full/fchearings.htm

and as I recall, nowadays the panel has to raise the right hand before testifying...

[bush_is_wacko]

26. People want to believe our government would NEVER do these things

I want to believe that, but I am a rational person and the evidence clearly shows I don't have that convenience. I'm not sure what it will take. I sure as hell hope someone out there comes across the magic "smoking gun" that will wake up America.

In the mean time it's going to take a lot of people stirring up the pot to make it boil and we are seeing a few little bottom bubbles right now.

We have to realize Rove, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld got real good at covering things up after the miserable failure of the Nixon administration. The truth is these guy's are the only truly insane "conspiracy theorist" I have ever run across. They were making up "imaginary" weapons when Nixon and Ford were in office. A lot of people know this under the surface but haven't connected the dots. And then there are those of us that were too young back then to remember what was going on and those that weren't even born. I've been trying to direct people to sites that I think can empower them and help them realize all is not lost.

It's going to take a lot of loud voices and information leaks to wake up those that forgot and those that never knew. It's not as if our history classes have been relaying this information to us all these years. You'd be surprised at how many people forgot Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were involved in the Nixon era problems.

I've often wondered if regular flyer bombs like they do in countries under siege with the dots connected for people and the information all there in black and white wouldn't be a good idea. This country is under siege and we should be treating it like that.

[emlev]

27. Thoughts re: further conversation w/ brother-in-law

First, please check out these two DU threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address
=203x287401

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address
=203x287391

Both feature links to articles by Chuck Herrin that might be useful to you.

It occurs to me that lots of times when people don't want to listen it's
because they need a chance to be listened to, first. If you can find it in
you to really listen to your brother-in-law and actually try to understand
where he's coming from, you may find him more ready to listen to you. And
even if he's not, you will have learned something that will inform your
future discussions with him and others you talk to about these issues.

I think people are terrified to believe many truths about our government. It
might be interesting to see if you can find out what he imagines it would
mean if what you say *were* true (hypothetically of course). What would it
mean in his life to see the world the way you see it, at least on this one
topic?

If you can find true curiosity about his beliefs and convey that to him, it
might be an illuminating conversation for both of you. I'd advise that you
try not to ask any "why" questions, because those will sound judgmental and
likely lead to him shutting down more.

And remember: .500 is a pretty good batting average! Ah, but then, you're a
football fan.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. First things first...

I am a football fan only in the sense that when the Patriots win my husband is in a VERY good mood and tailgating parties can be a lot of fun. Atlanta Braves baby!

As far as my brother-in-law is concerned, I highly doubt he would even want to tell me where he is coming from. Between you, me and a lamppost, I think his real motivation is to bug the crap out of my sister and I by plucking at our liberal heartstrings.

[Al-CIAda]

28. Some people have that reaction to 9/11 being an INSIDE JOB

...so it is no surprise they are in a state of disbelief over something minor like free and fair elections.

Denial rather than face the horrific reality.

[VAMom]

31. Batting .500 is pretty good

Just keep the message out there, .501 is a victory in 2008

[Democrat Dragon]

33. Remember that the first point of fascism is

extreme patriotism, this is something that has been basically brainwashed into schoolchildren for decades, although it occurs less in Blue states than in Red states.

Remember the pledge of allegiance? How they they glorified that America is a free counrty and that it's all about freedon, justice, and liberty? Remember how teachers told you about how "infallable" the constitution and checks and balances were to a fascist coup? About how the Bill of Rights means that no dictator can take over the U.S?

That is why some people are in denial.

Other explanations are that they simply do not care or are very apathetic toawrd the government's actions.

[LittleClarkie]

34. I don't talk about it much, not since the staunch Dem vet told me

"Get over it! We lost!"

Since then, I've talked about it three times. One with a guy reads DU but still seems to think it was because of the campaign and not fraud.

The second time was right on Jan 6th when I told the "What's the matter with Kansas" gay Republican barista at Starbucks about what was happening that day. He asked with a shocked look on his face "What do they think they're going to accomplish doing that? Even without Ohio, Bush wins, right?" I calmly explained that it was about the irregular vote and about highlighting the need for reform. He could dig that. In fact, he couldn't vote where he lived. He had to go back to where he USED to live to vote. So he was receptive.

The last was last night. A guy I can normally find common ground with even though he's a conservative told me, before I could state my position, that he didn't believe in electronic voting at all as it was too easy to hack, and that he believed we should all be voting in federal elections on the same damn machine. We both like the Marksense system we have here. Very clear, very simple, mark the ballot with a marker and feed it into the scanner and listen for the "beep beep" that means your vote has been accepted.

I added having the elections run by non-partisans.

It was good to hear that a Bush voter, even though his guy won, felt as I did. Quite cool.