I'm Disgusted with the American Public

[Shalom]

While I have tremendous admiration for the activists on DU and others who are doing all they can to restore democracy and freedom in this country, the unfortunate reality is that the exception proves the rule: the thousands who cannot accept the theft of the 2004 election are totally outnumbered by the 10's of millions of people who actually voted for George Walker Bushitler, and the 10's of millions of people who voted against the POS POTUS, but who are now willing to wait 4 more years (again!), in the futile hope that the Bushitler dynasty will allow Democrats to ever occupy the White House, or control either house of Congress, again.

As such, the only rational feeling we can have for the American public at large is contempt and disgust. They are happy to go to movies, do their Christmas shopping, and live normal lives, while innocent Iraqi civilians are murdered on a daily basis, and our young solidiers are being maimed and killed in honor of the cowardly AWOL commander-in-thief.

Just like Adolf Hitler would have been only an insane lunatic without the support of the German people, the flesh-eating virus known as the Bushitler dyansty would be nothing if the American public refused to allow them to control us.

There is NO EXCUSE for the criminal behavior of the masses of the American public for support and/or acceptance of the Bushitler regime. Any other civilized and educated society would have recognized by now the incredible parade of filthy lies and coverups they have been fed by the Bushitler administration. Any other civilized and educated society, with all the advantages we enjoy in America, would not be confused about the fact that Bin Laden had NOTHING to do with 9/11: yet half of this country are so wrapped up in reality TV and football games that they don't know this basic fact.

I am disgusted with the behavior of the large majority of my fellow citizens. Will they only wake up when our places of worship are being blown up by suicide bombers from Iraq, just like our military has been doing to Iraqi places of worship ?

[RaulVB]

1. You need to understand the role of the American "media" on this issue

The common citizens are very uninformed thanks to the "press."

Not all Americans have access to the Internet, you know.

[elare]

4. Regarding Internet access ...

Not all Americans have access to the Internet, and many many of those who do, don't read their news online or only read the online editions of MSM.

If the media won't inform the public, you can hardly blame the public for being uninformed.

[cthrumatrix]

27. many american CHOOSE to be ingnorant....it's too much time reading

so they rather be fed Bullshit and lies....

Amazing we let the press get away with the continous dumbing down of America.

[bush_is_wacko]

35. Many more than we realize still have no access because they

can't afford a computer or the monthly bills. Many of those were people that were disenfranchised. We do need to come up with another way besides the internet to spread our message rapidly to these people. Flyers that you keep in your car and randomly place on car windshields are a great idea. Deception dollars are too. Wearing that blue paperclip everywhere I go has started a few conversations. The message isn't being heard in the media so let's find some other ways to get the message to those less fortunate and not blame them for the * economy that probably put them where they are today. Just a few months ago, I was worried I was going to have to disconnect due to job loss and pay cuts. I know how it feels to worry whether should continue paying $30 a month for internet or if that money might be better spent elswhere. It doesn't feel good!

[mordarlar]

2. And now on to Iran....

THE COMING WARS
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
What the Pentagon can now do in secret.
Issue of 2005-01-24 and 31
Posted 2005-01-17

George W. Bush’s reëlection was not his only victory last fall. The President and his national-security advisers have consolidated control over the military and intelligence communities’ strategic analyses and covert operations to a degree unmatched since the rise of the post-Second World War national-security state. Bush has an aggressive and ambitious agenda for using that control—against the mullahs in Iran and against targets in the ongoing war on terrorism—during his second term. The C.I.A. will continue to be downgraded, and the agency will increasingly serve, as one government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon put it, as “facilitators” of policy emanating from President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney. This process is well under way.




http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050124fa_fact

[RaulVB]

3. Only if THE MEDIA SPONSORS THIS NEW AGGRESSION (n/t)

[Shalom]

6. Let's Stop Blaming the Media for Everything....

Even though the Nazis completely controlled the media (through Joseph Goebbels, the Karl Rove of that era) when Hitler was in power, it still does not absolve the German people for being thrilled by their Fuehrer (Leader) in Nurember rallies, and so on.

However our media leans to the Reich-wing, there is a tremendous amount of information out there (even on TV) to demonstrate that the Bushitler administration is one of the most evil and powerful in world history.

The truth of the matter is obvious: go to any mall in America, and watch the sleek well-fed people gobble up clothing, appliances, and food.

They DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD !!

They DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT DEMOCRACY !!

[Pendulum]

5. Raul's right (On edit: about #1 in particular)

At times, the American public makes me feel :puke:, too. But it's really not that people don't care, it's that they honestly don't know!

When most people I know hear tidbits of the truth, they figure, "Well that's :crazy:, I've never read anything about THAT in the paper!"

[Carolab]

16. Sadly, I don't think that's quite true.

In my experience, I have educated family and friends on the war, the control of the media "message" and on the problems with this election and the need for reform quite fully. Their attitude continues to be one of resistance to the facts on the ground. It's not that they argue it with me so much as they seem to be content to imagine that I am either overstating the case or that things will somehow improve without their/our involvement. These are intelligent people, and they are Democrats. I think they find it impossible to believe the truth of all this and I think that they still believe if it's not in MSM, then it is not "real".

[RaulVB]

34. Well, if a "democrat" thinks that way...

he/she should review his party allegiance, IMO.

[Carolab]

36. No. They hate Bush and what the Republican party is doing to us.

They just aren't as involved as I am. As I said, it's not that they argue it so much as they don't embrace it fully--not enough to engage in any meaningful action, though for all I know they do discuss it with others.

[newyawker99]

56. Hi Pendulum!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[New Earth]

7. I am equally disgusted

for all the same reasons, if not more.

[Shalom]

8. Thanks, Faye....what would Jefferson, Madison, and Washington feel...

...about what has happened to our country ?

[izzie]

9. We can be sure things will change.

--

[sparky_in_ma]

10. I know I'm sad

about the way things have deteriorated in the country. I'm an optimist on some things. I think the election process has a simple fix. With electronic voting, a receipt is issued and one stub is left in a box for possible recount, the other is for the voter so they have proof of their vote. My ATM does it, so can voting machines.

I've found a lot of people aren't uncaring, it's just they've been too lazy to look beyond the headlines. While there are many fascist types who will not care, nor would want to know about suffering in the world outside their little box, most people can be educated. It takes time but it can work. DU has approx. 63k members, and I'm sure some lurkers. If each of us talks and teaches 10 people a month, we've got some good numbers by the end of the year. I know it sounds simplistic, but the whole journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step thing. I've used the **** social security opening to bring up other issues with conservative co-workers. DU has been a gold mine for useful talking points, and as long as I've kept the rhetoric toned down, I've had people pay attention.

I understand your feeling, I just hope we can change the status quo.

[Kerrytravelers]

11. It's amazing what people don't bother knowing...

One of our very good friends (who did vote for Kerry) had no idea about most of the issues. His 29 year old wife has had numerous surgeries for brain tumors over the past eight years. The stay-home-mom of a two year old, her benefits are through him. If something were to happen to the husband, she would be in for a quick death as numerous insurance companies have denied her. Yet, this guy had no idea about the health care issues up for grabs at the election.

Unbelievable.

But, when you try and talk to people like this, they simply think because they don't know about it, it can't be true. Or, on topics that don't directly effect them right now, they think, "well, it's nothing I have to deal with, so it shouldn't be a problem for anyone else, either."

Terrifying.

[Shalom]

12. Some of these people will relate to Tsunami victims....

which is great, considering that 100,000+ innocent human beings may have been killed by an act of Nature.

So why don't these same people react to the killing of perhaps 100,00+ innocent people through a deliberate act of US foreign policy ?

[Kerrytravelers]

14. It's simply logic.

Tsunami victims included Americans and others from countries that are part of the Coalition of the Willing. Being that they desire our help, we can witness to them and turn their heathen country into a great Christian nation like ours, that way no other tsunami's will devestate them again.

However, those Godless diaper heads deserve what they get for hating us for our freedom.



Logic from a Republicn standpoint. Pretty clear, right?

[newyawker99]

57. Hi Kerrytravelers!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[sparky_in_ma]

18. Very good point

I think that's where the media, as pointed out in post #1 and #4, has let us down. Most people I've talked to have no idea of the carnage in Iraq. Every paper should have a running death toll each day, of civilian and military casualties. It would put into perspective how much a barrel of oil was costing. Iraq civilians and our military shouldn't have to pay the price for the son trying to out shine the father.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. I could not watch NBCs mass telethon to assist tsunami victims

when I know that our country was behind the premeditated murder of over 100,000 innocents in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and that GE, NBC's parent company is profiting in all those deaths.

[Vinca]

13. The sad fact is

that people, for whatever reason, don't believe it's happening until it happens to them or their family. We've recently joined the 45 million uninsured for health care. After my husband was diagnosed with a chronic disease (under control and not a problem at all) our rates skyrocketed to the point of being unaffordable. Ever since we let the policy lapse, I've been asking other self-employed people what they do for health insurance and 9 times out of 10 it turns out they don't have it either. The priorities in this country are backasswards (as my Grandma might have said) and if I were a betting woman I'd put money on an invasion of Iran before health care reform.

[Kerrytravelers]

15. I'm betting with you.

But hey, aren't invasions more exciting than talking about boring old health care anyways?

[Shalom]

19. For Bushitler, even Health Care and Social Security are Invasions !!

First you hype the rubes with the equivalent of WMD, and the "sky is falling"...

Then you do whatever the FUCK YOU WANT - because you are a scion of fine breeding and the best stock, a refined specimen of humanity, who carries in their gentic material the DNA for the flesh-eating virus of the Bushitler Dynasty !!

HEIL BUSHITLER !!
MAY THE REICH OF THE BUSHITLER DYNASTY LAST FOR 1,000 YEARS !!!

[Carolab]

22. Chuck Herrin, MIT/Cal Tech do not agree with you on "paper receipts".

They unilaterally insist on paper ballots, hand counted. The machines have got to go. It is impossible to escape fraud unless they do. Then preventing fraud with paper ballots is a matter of altering the process to make it more secure.

[sparky_in_ma]

23. They're smarter than I am

:) I just don't want to go back to watching people look at chads with a microscope. We got burned there too. I agree that paper only is the best way, my town does that, but I don't see cities buying into it.

[Carolab]

26. They are not proposing chads.

Chads are punch card ballots read by a machine (i.e., Triad?).

They propose NO machines. Paper ballots, marked by hand, counted by hand. Just like the old days. And they propose we fix the process of voting itself and of counting, so as to minimize the risk of fraud.

Any involvement of machines is OUT, in their opinion.

[PennyMan]

17. People Who Actually Voted For B**H Doesn't See Anything That He Is

Doing. Like No WMD, A Defict That Is Way Out Of Hand, An Election That Was Far From Being Fair Not Once But Twice, Lie Lie After Lie They Don't Care, He Is Republican And They Are Part Of The Republican Party And He Is Right Regardless Of How Many Mistakes He Makes As Far As They Are Concerned He Makes No Mistakes. And You Can't Never Make Them Believe That He Is Wrong.

[Shalom]

20. Why ? They were quite able to see that Clinton grabbed some ass...

[sparky_in_ma]

21. People were told in great detail

about every last stain on every dress, every nite for months. I would bet more **** supporters know the color of the dress than what his plans for social security are. :-( Now I'm starting to get bummed out.

[bliss_eternal]

24. I understand your disgust--I'm

right there with you.

I've had conversations with 'friends' of late that make me wonder why we are even friends. They take more interest in reality shows on television and Brad and Jen splitting up than on what is going on in the world.

One told me, with the kind of work he does (social services) he just has to be 'selective' and not take on so many issues or he'd be perpetually depressed. While a part of me understands this, it still pisses me off.

I get frustrated because the very people I TRY to tell what's actually going on, (as they expressed so much interest during the elections) seem to not care about any of it at all now. It seems when I speak of it, they don't want to hear it AT ALL.

Whatever...

[Shalom]

28. Will History Forgive the American Public for Blindness & Ignorance ?

I don't think so - I think the judgement of history will rightfully be harsh.

We can't blame the media for everything - they give sound bites and focus on Chandra Levy type stories because this is what THE DUMBASS AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTS.

[il_lilac]

29. With knowledge comes responsibility

Most people don't want to leave their seemingly easy lives to take action. Once you acknowledge a wrong, you are either complicit or you must act to change it. I admit I was annoyed at first, I wanted a leader to do the fighting for me. Now my free time (when i would otherwise be sleeping!) is spent arming myself with truth, writing Senators, and trying to convert the masses.

[KnowerOfLogic]

25. Can't disagree w/ you. nt

[fooj]

30. The apathy of SOME Americans is absolutely apalling!

:cry:

[Peace Patriot]

31. Calm down, Shalom! Think it through...

1. Despite the most intense brainwashing effort in human history--with BushCons controlling the news agenda of all major TV, radio and newspaper companies--the American people saw through all the B.S. and voted to oust Bush!

2. We really do NOT see Hitler type crowds of tens of thousands of Americans worshiping Bush. They had to scrape the rightwing churches and bus people in--and severely vet the crowds--to have Bush appear in front of some worshipers during the campaign (whereas Kerry's crowds were large, diverse, and mostly spontaneous--and always included a few Bush signs and t-shirts).

3. Despite getting burned on Iraq and other matters--with outright Bush lies that took about a year to get exposed, by word of mouth--some people still turn to the TV news and similar sources to get snippets of the headlines, or to give them a sense of belonging to a nation, or a national community. So they get misinformed AGAIN. Think: literal brainwashing, that they are ABLE to break through, with their own good common sense, but concerning which they can't maintain their skepticism; fall prey again and again.

4. It's been a gradual thing--the creation of this delusion of democracy. For instance, the TV news used to be more diverse, and more honest. I just saw some old TV news footage of the Vietnam war--the difference is remarkable. We had more honest news then. So many are conditioned to believe the images they see (and to disbelieve what they don't see) on TV.

5. 9/11 was VERY TRAUMATIC, much more than we realize. It shook many people to the core--and made them MORE VULNERABLE to manipulation. They may still see through some things. They may see more than you can guess--but they are SCARED. So, on the election, for instance, they just want closure. They can't believe that the government is as corrupt as it is. They can't handle any more trauma.

It just doesn't do to write off all Americans as disgusting and uncaring. I strongly disagree. I think it's a much more mixed picture, with various combinations of brainwashing and vulnerability, deep caring and some callousness, profound worry on many fronts, acute lack of political leadership, dismay, depression, denial. I feel pity and compassion myself. I think we are a sensible and generous people on the whole--who have been specially targeted for disempowerment by the BushCon cabal and their global corporate brethren for the very reason that we hold the power (our vote, our voices) to control and curtail their nefarious activities.

And they--we--Americans have no positive direction to go in. All we can do is keep trying to UNDO their various schemes for disempowering us.

Note: Bush's approval rating at a record low, 48%--the lowest of any 2nd term president since WWII. And nearly 60% of Americans disapprove of the Iraq war--still!

This is not a disgusting people, all in all. This is a DISEMPOWERED people--and a people that doesn't know what to do to right the situation, because we have never before faced a fascist coup.

[Shalom]

32. Assume You Are Right: How DO WE TURN IT AROUND ??

Maybe we don't have Nuremberg sytle rallies for our Fuehrer, although Thursday's cornation for the latest member of the Bushitler dynasty is a bit scary. And Jeb Bushitler is waiting in the wings....

Remember we have the advantage of having seen what Facism and Nazism can do, so we should be held to a higher standard: the people in Italy and Germany in the 30's and 40's had no precedent to use in making judgements. We do.

I concede your point about 9/11 - it's a very good one. 9/11 has been used very effectively (I believe it was created by Bush and his buddies, but that's a separate subject) by Bushitler to control America with fear and psycho-ops.

Before I calm down, I want to know what we can do to turn this around before it is too late. I won't really calm down until I see George Walker Bushitler convicted of treason, and brought to justice.

[qwghlmian]

33. Well, first thing I would think is

to stop with the "contempt and disgust" for the people that you hope will vote for you. I think if you acquaint these people with your feelings of "contempt and disgust" for them, they will tend not to vote for the candidates that you favor. Don't you?

[BeFree]

39. Peace Patriot,

I fully approve your message. Bush was not truly elected. The majority of people did not vote for him. While we do have a bunch of hairballs in this country, it is mostly true blooded Americans who reside here.

It does no good to put down, in general terms, the majority of the populace as Shalom has, and one hopes that now duly informed, Shalom, et al, will redirect their energies into more productive areas. Of course, I understand the sentiment which carried this thread.... it just does no worldly good to express it... heck, Faux may even have fun putting this one on the air.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stillcool]

37. I wrote a ltte today ....

Remembering the dream....

Memories of Sacred Heart waft in front of me as I think of the words ‘My Country’. Saying the pledge of allegiance, or singing ‘My country tis of thee’. Sweet innocent memories. It was the 60’s but race and equality had barely entered my consciousness, same with the Viet Nam war. I was affected by both events, as one might be watching a train wreck. Things happen. My understanding which is limited to experience gives me little more insight today, than all those years ago. I still ask why.
What brings these memories to call on me, are the parallels of that time and now. Lost innocence, and the need to know why. It is said the longest trip one ever takes is that from the head to the heart. In this past year I have embarked on such. My ports of call have been the defense industry, and their partners the voting machine companies. Many hours have been spent reading up on the behemoth imperialist militarized entity my country has become.
Hope comes from history, and brave souls like Martin Luther King. Our collective pasts are filled with all that humanity has to offer. The world today seems more complex, or is it I? There are many generations scarred by atrocity yet the human spirit survives. What is so painful is to have the illusion of a good and just nation trampled beyond recognition, by the very same instigators of that train wreck so very long ago.

[Peace Patriot]

62. "What is so painful is to have the illusion of a good and just nation...

"...trampled beyond recognition...."

Yes, this touches me deeply, too. I am fully aware of the injustice and evil that the US has inflicted on some of its own people--on black and brown citizens, on the poor, on early labor organizers and other dissenters, and on soldiers in every war--and on Native Americans, and on people in other lands, possibly the worst being 1 to 2 million Vietnamese slaughtered for no reason that anyone has been able to discern, except perhaps enriching war profiteers.

We've done some pretty horrible things as a nation, but, through it all, there is something good and just and fair about Americans, on the whole, something that keeps trying to break through and sometimes succeeds, as in the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1964, or returning some lands and payment to Native Americans and late-developing attempts to help them recover their culture, or the New Deal (trying to repair the harm done by out of control capitalists), or women finally getting the vote, or the US stopping major overt wars for 20 years after the Vietnam War due to the antiwar movement, and stopping assassinations of foreign leaders, and other advances.

These advances ALWAYS involve struggle, but WHAT inspires the strugglers if not that "something good" that was written into our Declaration of Independence, that "all men are created equal," and written into our Constitution as guarantees of free speech and freedom of religion--a belief that with openness and freedom, justice will prevail?

We keep trying to make our society freer and more tolerant, and less bigoted, and more generous--or we did until now.

So it is not so much a "good and just nation" that we have lost. Ours had some serious flaws in goodness and justice. What we have lost--or seem to have lost--is the DREAM of a good and just nation, or the GOAL of a good and just nation.

We are so enterprising, so creative, so industrious, and often so generous as a people that there is nothing we cannot do, by way of advancing humanity, saving the planet (which our industrialists are so savagely destroying), and repairing injustice wherever it has been inflicted, by us or by others. We CAN do these things. We HAVE DONE similar things.

But we no longer have that goal! Or rather, the BushCons have taken all our resources and committed them to a far different goal, their own enrichment and power.

In fact, we still DO have good goals, as a people--we just don't have good leaders. If a good leader arose and told Americans tomorrow that we MUST convert to alternative fuels in 10 years, I think it would be done in 5. That's what kind of people we are. Give us a problem clearly stated and a solution, and we can solve it.

That's why all this is such a pity and a tragedy.

For all our flaws as a nation, we, as a people, WANT to do good, WANT to do what's right, WANT to share our prosperity and our creativity and our freedom. And they won't let us!

It is sad beyond belief.

But we must pick ourselves up off the ground, face facts-such as the fact of a fascist coup running our government--and look to methods for getting our democracy back.

First and foremost: our right to vote.

And we have to do THIS state by state, with local grass roots efforts, and unrelenting pressure on state election officials and legislatures, for:

1) paper ballots
2) hand counts

or at least

1) voter verified paper ballot that takes precedence over electronic tallies in any recount
2) open source code in all voting machines and central vote tabulators

and c) honest exit polls to verify elections and check for fraud (as is done everywhere else in the world).

We cannot count on Congress to give us back our right to vote. They will not do it! We have to do it ourselves. Let's get started!

[Al-CIAda]

40. No matter what the cause of the ignorance, I think it is safe to say

what pains us most is the realization that we now know it will have to get much worse before the sheeple realize what is going on.

We see the world of shit that is about to engulf us. They are sttill trying to wish it away.

[Fly by night]

41. While you are disgusted, I am very hopeful. And here's why.

Within a month after the election, a CNN/Gallup Poll found that about 20% of the American people believed that the election was tampered with. More recently, an Annenberg Poll puts that number at 30%. (I won't quibble with freepers or anal/retentives over the wording of the questions in the two surveys -- the intent of the questions and the intent of the responders were essentially the same.) So in the midst of a media blackout on the election theft and in a very short time, OUR efforts and the efforts of others like us to educate the American public on this issue are gaining traction. We have to keep working to maintain a spotlight on this issue every way we can. We are building -- and not that slowly -- toward a great collective realization that we have lost our democracy. The last thing we should be now is disheartened -- we should redouble our efforts and find as many creative ways as possible to keep penetrating the public perception and to remain a part of the public dialogue.

Two ways to do that are to not buy into any argument that denigrates the intelligence of the American people. That simply alienates people on all sides of the political divide. I would rather credit the American people for voting to oust Bush and re-focus the conversation to being concerned that their will was thwarted by the Nazis now in charge. That also goes for any discussions about the Democrats having to change our message and our priorities. Guys, ours was the winning ticket -- the Rethugs were (and are) the losers. The public sentiment about Iraq is a great example of this. When Bush talks about his mandate justifying his reckless course in Iraq, we can simply turn to the polls showing about 60% of Americans opposed to that policy -- and repeat that this is an even higher figure that the majority of the American people who voted to remove Bonzo from office.

The second way we can keep addressing this issue is to get in the faces of the corporate media every chance we get to ask whether any of them still have the best interests of this country at heart and, if so, why they are not investigating and reporting on the election theft (and releasing the goddamn exit polls) right now. At a public showing of "The Control Room" last night in Nashville, I confronted the media panel who spoke after the movie about just these issues (and ABC and NBC were represented on the panel) and I was the only questioner (out of ten) to get loud applause (twice) from the audience. The panel squirmed like they had just gotten a jalapeno enema.

So don't speak ill of the American people. They voted to oust the smirking chimp and they are awakening fast to the fact that they wuz robbed. We just have to keep on keeping on with what we are doing, and do more of it, and better. It would help if Kerry started saying that "hundreds of thousands" of votes were lost through their shenanigans (and not just "thousands" like he did today). But every little bit helps to keep the fires stoked under this issue.

I trust the American people -- it's Bush-Rove and their ilk who don't trust them (for good reason). And boy, we're gonna burn their butts soon enough, and perhaps eviscerate the Rethug Party at the same time. So show some respect for the American people -- they are on our side and even many who voted for Cheeta will be revolted when they learn and accept the truth of this election theft. Just keep working, folks. We are the ones that we (and the rest of the American people) have been waiting for.

[icehenge]

44. Thats was inspiring

But its hard to remember that were gaining support
when none of your family/friends express interest.
I will continue though in my efforts. Thanks for
your nice words.

[Mistwell]

60. I've asked before

And I will ask again (and I am no fucking FREEPER!). I read the poll you posted. I can count. It didn't add up to anything NEAR 30%. In fact, I saw NO numbers that, when combined, added up to that number. Could you please repost this and point to where it said 30%? It looked like 10% to me.

[Peace Patriot]

63. Fly by night, what a beautiful and truthful statement!

I agree with you. It took a year for the truth about Iraq to seep out to everyone. Now it is the general consensus that the BushCon justifications for invading Iraq and killing at least 100,000 of its people were 100% lies. Americans finally got this word, finally understood it--despite the overwhelming propaganda assaulting them from every direction--and voted Bush out.

Now they have to understand that there is much more wrong here than a wrongful war and constant lying. The election system has been "fixed"--the very bastion of democracy. I think Americans are a traumatized people. From 9/11 to Iraq to Stolen Election II--with the propaganda machine never letting up. It's become an emotional thing--being able to take in the facts, or not. There is just too much to understand at once, and it is all bad.

But if we can proceed with recovering our right to vote, state by state (Congress isn't going to do it!)--a doable project focused on state election rules (most people would agree that elections should be transparent--whether or not they can emotionally handle that the election was stolen), then I think other American progressives and Kerry voters (the majority!) will be very glad that we did so, and we will be able to salvage this democracy when the BushCon crap hits the fan.

2nd project: divestiture and boycott campaign against selected media lapdogs.

[European Socialist]

42. 70% didn't vote or voted for Bush.

This is much more depressing than '72' when McGovern lost big to Nixon. Back then the average person could find decent empoloyment and working people weren't so beaten down. The current situation is incredibly bleak.

[anaxarchos]

43. How do you believe in democracy...

...if you don't believe in the people?

[Shalom]

53. Democracy is a Gift that must be nurtured by the people, or...

Democracy is our inheritance and a gift we have received from generations of Americans who fought and often died for it.

The American public should not get credit just for being the "people" and inheriting democracy.

They deserve credit if they nuture and defend democracy, and deserve disdain if they neglect and abuse it. And guess what:if the people neglect and abuse this gift, they can lose democracy, with the result that all the brave patriots and soldiers gave their lives in vain.

Which case has been evident during the Bushitler regime ?

[anaxarchos]

55. Forgive me for picking at this scab a little deeper...

...but it has nothing to do with deserving anything. Freedom (and democracy) is a 'Natural Right' or has been considered so for 250 years. We are 'born' with it. "We hold these truths to be self evident....", etc.

Rousseau said "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains" and that is true but that is never the fault of the slave but of the slave master. The people are the only agency through which to get back what no one can really ever give away to begin with.

I understand your frustration but ya gotta believe in the people. Save your 'disdain' for the slave masters.

[Shalom]

58. I Think We are Basically in Agreement...

All juman beings deserve and are born with the rights of freedom and liberty, but it's obvious they don't have have what is their natural right.

Our American Revolution was REQUIRED in order to restore to the colonists this rights. Without this rebellion, they would have continued to be slaves.

After a nation has won these rights, it is a unique "gift" for their descendants to actually enjoy this freedom, with the provision that they must defend and protect it. Jefferson went so far as to state that a continual series of revolts would be required to maintain freedom:


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[WeHoldTheseTruths]

46. Feeling is Not the Same as Thinking

Peace Patriot's and Fly by Night's posts stand out to me personally. Thanks people. I was reading through with heart pounding and brain racing till I got to those.

The united States have been under assault since day 1 and before. Now we are at crisis stage (again). Were we taught about this in school? Is the information easy to come by? Hell no to both. And damn lucky are those who have families that set them going with an accurate perspective and tools.

It's dawning on me that a little truth goes a long way (whereas the bullshit only endures through constant brain-bashing), and maybe therein lies some hope. I can think of here and there where I picked up concepts of truths of value and it seems to me that the teacher, uncle, parent, neighbor or co-worker who set them forth likely at the time had no way of knowing they had done good. Some of them are gone now, but they live in me (and no doubt live in others too).

Simply put, I believe that if we keep listening and keep working toward justice and the common good -- each in our own way with what we have at hand -- we must win . . . that is to say, justice and truth must prevail because that's the way things work.

And, yes it can get scary as hell, and it can be depressing and frustrating and painful. But look at the heroes who got us this far and think of their suffering and sacrifice.

Good people lost friends and family September 11, 2001. Good people are losing friends and family in this insane war. A total fuckup idiot is occupying the Presidency through fraud. Twice! Sleepwalkers fill our streets and offices and neighborhoods. We are, many of us, fighting our way out of clouds of brainwashing. As Peace Patriot said, "Calm down, Think it through." And Fly by night, "We are the ones that we have been waiting for."

Shalom, ladies and gentlemen who are struggling to regain hope, I understand your feelings, but I disagree with your conclusions (ref the posts I refer to). I believe can do this. Together.

"Will they only wake up when our places of worship are being blown up by suicide bombers from Iraq . . .?" -- Myself, I think the increasing economic disintegration may rip many out of denial. They may be more open to considering the fact that the election was stolen then, when conditions hit them personally. Many may well be looking to Shrub as the Chief Cause of it all.

[Shalom]

59. Very Well Stated, and apropos of "We Hold These Truths"...

[Vektor]

47. Shalom - did you mean to say.....

"Any other civilized and educated society, with all the advantages we enjoy in America, would not be confused about the fact that Bin Laden had NOTHING to do with 9/11: yet half of this country are so wrapped up in reality TV and football games that they don't know this basic fact."

Did you mean to say that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 instead?

[Shalom]

51. YES, Vektor...thanks ! I'm sure you know what I meant... ;-)

[Vektor]

66. Cool... :-)

That's what I thought...

And you're so right.

[NationalEnquirer]

48. Its so weird...

My brother, who is otherwise the smartest of our family, is the lone conservative and voted for B*sh.
I can't hate the guy, I mean, he says he wants the best for everybody as well, his idea about how to do it is just different than mine.
I personally know him, and otherwise he is a great guy, he's funny, real smart, and very much loved.
But bring up politics, and you have to clear the room.
He backs up what he believes with numbers and figures, I think maybe he gets lost in the statistics or something.
Too much of a technician, and not enough empathy.
I don't know what his problem is.
He isn't the richest of the family, not by a long shot, he struggles financially more than I do.
I just don't get it.
Because of him, though, I just can't quite "hate" all B*sh voters.
I do think many of them are good hearted, just misguided.
How else to explain it?

[jsascj]

49. Same here

I would have to hate my entire family since I am the only "enlightened" one.

I did ask my father why he voted for Bush. He thinks that Dumbya has made numerous errors, that the war was a mistake from the beginning and that he is arrogant and quite stoopid. So "why", I asked. He said that he almost voted for Kerry but just couldn't really come up with a reason to vote for him and since he still kind of "likes" Bush, he voted that way. That's when I realized that I was discussing things with a stone wall. Since I choose NOT to hate my father (and the rest of my family) I've decided not to discuss anything with them. It's pointless.

[NationalEnquirer]

54. I know exactly what you mean.

I don't talk much politics with my brother.
I make it a point not too.
Sometimes my sister or father will get into it with him, but that hasn't happened lately.
I heard him telling my mother that he refused to argue with my father any more.
Not out of anger, but out of love, he said, teary eyed.
I'll never forget him how he said that.
I guess for him, it must be how it is for you.
Mostly we just talk about sports and chicks!

[grace0418]

50. And the whole thing is going to start over again with Iran

My guess is most of the idiots that support Bush won't even know the difference, there's only one letter different.

[Shalom]

52. I Think They Wanted to invade IRAQ, but it was a typo....

by the mental retard Bush!

[Mistwell]

61. Have some faith

1. 9-11 made it nearly impossible to through out the sitting President, and yet we nearly did.
2. An active war makes it nearly impossible to through out a sitting President, and yet we nearly did.
3. We ran an uncharismatic Senator who was noteworthy for his resume, his lack of controversial decisions (or much in the way of decisions at all) over the years, and his war record from 35 years ago...and not for his popularity or ability to run a strong campaign. And, despite running one of the most unappealing of our choices, we still almost beat a sitting President.
4. We ran against an opponant backed by a MASSIVE amount of corporate funds and much more experience in running for President. And despite that, we (for the first time) gathered more money than them over time through 527 groups and from individual contributions, and almost beat that corporate well-funded sitting President.
5. We turned out more first time voters than ever...who will hopefully came back in droves for future elections.

These are all things that indicate that the American public is doing okay. There is nothing at all hateful about the bulk of the population. We did pretty good this time, all things considered.

[Peace Patriot]

64. Mistwell, you are so right!

...and not only that, people accomplished these feats coming from a near standstill. I remember political discussions about a year before the election. The Democratic leadership had already written off the 2004 election, thinking Bush was unbeatable. Not so, said the grass roots--and got busy and got themselves a candidate, Howard Dean, and did the most fabulous job of grass roots organizing that I have ever seen in my 44 years in politics. No wonder the BushCons went nuts and perpetrated every form of election fraud imaginable--using almost every one of their fraud backup plans, in my opinion--not so much to stop Kerry as to stop THE PEOPLE.

Can't have THE PEOPLE excercising their will!

Actually, I don't think Kerry was a liability. He was more a worm in the belly of true progressives and believers in peace and justice--an annoyance--but we didn't let that stop us. We just carried on!

Some think that Dean--or someone stronger and more principled--might have gotten a 10% margin, instead of the 3%-5% that Kerry probably got, and thus would have been able to overcome the election fraud. But I think we then would have seen the one backup fraud contigency plan they didn't use--phony terrorist alerts in big cities (they did use Homeland Security to remove observers of the count in Warren County, Ohio, but didn't shut down big cities). I don't think there is any way that anyone but Bush could have won this election. It was thoroughly fixed.

The grass roots campaign was fabulous! It did everything right. What got us was the Democratic leadership's lack of vigilance on the fraudulent election SYSTEM (--BushCons owning the secret source code that counts all our votes! I mean really!), and their complete cave-in once the fraud occurred.

They really have to answer for this! And until it's repaired, and we have recovered our right to vote--something I don't think the Dem leadership in DC is capable of doing--this great democracy movement will be facing an insurmountable obstacle in any future election efforts. That's the tragedy, it seems to me. So much incredible effort, only to have it stolen AGAIN--and everybody from Kerry on down to the Governor of New Mexico in denial about it.

Still, state by state, is how we have to undo this voting mess that BushCons AND Democrats created. That's the only avenue open to us and the only power we have left--state election rules.

[Peace Patriot]

65. P.S., some advice for talking to those who are in denial...

...and I don't mean politicians, I mean ordinary folk--family, friends--especially Kerry voters.

1. Very, very important. Understand that they are traumatized and brainwashed. Treat them exactly as you would treat the victim of a cult. The logic circuits in their brains are still there, but are being overridden by emotion.

2. If you can access the logic circuits, don't start talking about the hardest things first--like the latest traumatic blow, election fraud. Make some remark about the incredible lies that were told about Iraq, and how it's all come out since, but it took a year--and isn't it strange that the TV news has dropped the subject of WMDs, now that it's been disproved? How did it GET disproved? Did they investigate it? Then, maybe throw in how the New York Times apologized to its readers for the disinformation on Iraq. Lesson: Don't trust your news sources so much.

3. Ask yourself: What do you want them to DO? Say they end up agreeing with you. Then what? I think this is part of what's going on in their brains--if this is all so bad, WHAT can *I* do? So have a petition for paper ballots and hand counts all ready for them to sign. And even offer this to those who DON'T get it. It's something all can agree on. Elections should be honest and open. Lesson: practical action, being able to DO something.

4. Even if they don't get everything at once, praise what they DO get. Give them rewards for thinking independently. Lesson: help them re-wire those brain circuits.

5. If you are able to, try to break their addiction to TV news, or their addiction to TV in general as a means of feeling like they belong to a national community. Talk with them--not just about politics. Encourage community activities. Also, give them some alternative news sources. Truthout.org is a good one (well organized, easy to access the latest news.) Or give them a subscription to an alternative publication. The Lone Star Iconoclast in Crawford, Texas, is a great one! Good matter for conversation--this spunky paper in Bush's home town. Or put them onto Air America. (Encourage them to get satellite for their cars--ALL progressives hate the commercial radio offerings--Rush Limbaugh et al.) Lesson: undermine the BushCon media's control over them.

6. Understand their frustration and their worries. They may agree with you on Social Security, and tax cuts for the rich, and the war, and corporate control of our lives--and they may be deeply worried about it all--but they don't know what THEY can do about it, other than vote (and meaningful voting has been taken away from them). Many Americans have lost a sense of community and a feeling of duty toward civic action. (It may be by design, too. Nothing corporations hate more than a caring, well-informed, civic-minded local community!). Devise ways they can participate in democracy--and feel success and get satisfaction from it. You know them best. What would they be interested in? Homeless shelters? Recycling? Helping schools? Aid to the tsunami victims? Aid to Iraqis, or to US troops in Iraq? Lesson: work to REPLACE the phony "national community" and the delusional democracy of TV with something REAL.

(Note on #6: AND praise them for any civic duty they DO perform! They may do a lot, and they may feel totally unappreciated--because BushCons are such jerks and have made greed and power into the ruling MO. Re-enforce their belief that THEY can make a difference, that it MATTERS what they do.)

7. Empowerment. You get the idea. What you will be doing is re-creating an intelligent, caring, committed, strong, empowered human being who would never tolerate any B.S. election run by Bush "Pioneers"!

Summary: Take a therapeutic approach, not an argumentative approach.