Is it time to put election fraud behind us?

[super simian]

Poll question: Is it time to put election fraud behind us?

Take the poll and give us your comments.
:kick:

[marmar]

1. I don't think we can afford to forget it ...

It's just another piece of democracy, which little by little, is being destroyed by this administration. We can't let them take any more of it.

[super simian]

2. I agree...

..wholeheartedly. Where is the fight if we are not fighting for democracy right at this moment?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meganmonkey]

20. Fraud was never an issue?

Then why were there over 100,000 complaints of election problems, and now there are lawsuits pending, a GAO investigation, a House Judiciary Committee investigation? Just because it isn't on Fox News doesn't mean it isn't an issue.




btw, welcome to DU :hi:

Your first day? Stick around a bit, you'll see evidence of fraud.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[super simian]

28. Check out Conyers 100 + page report...

...and explain why 99.9% of the computer vote flipping went to Chimp.

[meganmonkey]

29. "Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio

Here is a link to the executive summary of the House Judiciary Committee report. At the bottom of that page is a link to the full 101 page report.

Happy reading!!!


http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml

On edit: if it makes you feel better to read it from an official government site instead of a liberal site like truthout, here you go:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/

[mousie]

31. Whoa...

Kerry's campaign was the anti-bush??? Bush is the one who began with the Kerry-bashing campaign, and it was working... to the point when Kerry was advised that he'd have to start doing the same and play dirty too, even though Kerry really wanted to be above all that. That's my understanding anyway. And I still say Kerry is a great man and there could be no better candidate! I really want him to go for it in 2008... he still has it over any of the other choices, IMO. He would be one of the GREAT one's as President... I truly believe that. Oh, and FRAUD certainly WAS an issue! Where have you been?? These were NOT by any means your typical election problems... this was massive and planned fraud, and when you look at all we know it just couldn't be more obvious... it is impossible to deny there was fraud, unless of course you're a republican. Somehow they live in denial and defend dubya no matter what.

[Der Blaue Engel]

34. Oh, it's you again!

"We," huh?

:hi:

[mikelewis]

37. Say that when they throw your vote in the trash as they did mine...

I'm a 33 yr. old white, anglo-saxon protestant with 3 kids, 1 dog and a mortgage. My vote was tossed in the trash and I did everything they told me to do. Fraud isn't an issue? I think you're on the wrong site buddy.

[icehenge]

41. freeper

i've seen to post from this guy, his 1st post today
(the day he registered) was also negative towards democrats.

[googly]

45. Kerry lost for one reason and one reason only.............

He was nominated primarily for one reason....no other
candidate, not Dean, not Edwards, not Gephardt, certainly
not Kucinich, Braun or Sharpton had military combat on their
resume. The voters decided Kerry had the military background
to counter act the fear mongering by Bushco re:terrorism.

And recall the first thing Kerry said at the convention?
"I am John Kerry and I am reporting for duty" paraphrasing

But then came the swift boat veterans groups. I do not know
if they were telling the truth, since I was not there, it was
their words against Kerry and his supporters.
But their multi-million $$ campaign commercials undercut Kerry
as a military hero in many voter's minds in november.

And that was the main reason Kerry lost. If swifties do not show up,
Kerry wins in a landslide.

[myschkin]

56. another

dirty trick of Rove + election fraud. It´s so embarassing that a president made such a wretched figure in the TV confrontations - and nevertheless won.

[merh]

64. Pssst, guess what! Kerry Won.

They stole it. We must never give up on election reform, never forget the election fraud. We have to fix the election process.

[googly]

74. Yes, I agree and also wish you had the proof which will stand up in

courts so we can send shrub back to Crawford, Tx to tend to his cows.

[cidliz2004]

5. Forget what wasn't even proven, discussed and then fixed?

O.K., I guess that question means LETS JUST LET THE THEIVES WIN EVERY ELECTION!

[autorank]

10. CORRECT ANSWER: cidliz2004 IS RIGHT. The first cause, honest elections.

[electropop]

90. If we put it behind us...

It will forever be in front of us. We must solve it and soon.

[consciousobjector]

3. If we don't reform our election system

to eliminate or at least minimize fraud, we will have no democracy at all!

[recovering democrat]

6. Constitutional amendment.

guaranteeing EVERY citizen the right to vote, regardless of which state they live in. Starting point, only.

[Jo March]

9. And to have that vote actually count! ;)

We have to eliminate those loopholes for the repubs, you know!

[Jo March]

7. No. Why in the world should we "put it behind us"?

That's like asking, "Is it time to put civil rights behind us?" or "Is it time to put a woman's right to choose behind us?"

I am not going to the back of the bus just because the neocons and the freepers and the bushbots want me to shut up and sit back there.

No way. No how.

No retreat. No surrender.

[SharonRB]

13. Hi, arnheim

I absolutely agree with you. We can't drop it now. We have to prove it and change things for future elections.

[Jo March]

14. You're darn skippy, SharonRB! We have to prove it

and change things.

I want my darn vote back!!!

[SharonRB]

17. Exactly!

[super simian]

24. That's what I'm saying!

How the f* can we put it behind us and rely on a legislature that rolls over (with a few (2) important exceptions) at the nomination of Condi Liar-Rice to be SOS???? The idea of a constitutional ammendment for voter rights when equal rights for women couldn't pass 30 years ago is far from inspiring! What are our options here?

[tommcintyre]

8. No other issues/elections matter...

unless/until we handle election fraud.

And it MUST be handled by 2006, or no issues/elections will EVER really matter again in this country.

[Jo March]

11. Tom -

have I told you lately how much I love you and your blaster thingie?

:loveya:

[tommcintyre]

53. Thanks :D

It's always nice to be appreciated. ;)

[Karenca]

12. The fraud must be dealt with.

I want to see B*schco go downnnnnnnn.

[zann725]

47. We can NOT walk away. Staying and fighting IS "hard work"...but

remember, Shrub hates "hard work"...so if we hang in here long enough, we win!

[MelissaB]

15. For

those who haven't decided or think we need to put this behind us... a reminder of why we should be p*ssed. This is the same story second verse as Florida 2000. Go to Greg Palast's site and click the link on the left that says "BBC TV: Theft of the Presidency." It is worth the time it takes to watch it!

http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm

[Catbird]

16. Too much fraud swept under the rug already.

There is clear evidence of some kinds of fraud (e.g., fake mailings)and suspicious circumstantial evidence of other kinds (e.g., voting machine tampering). All of this should be investigated. Moving on to new legislation just sweeps more fraud under the rug. Do we really think that if we don't look at it, it isn't there?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[SharonRB]

19. Welcome to DU, Catbird

We can't sweep it under the rug. We must exhaust every possible avenue of proving it and then do something about it. We need a national dialogue and national standards for national elections. Everyone in every state should be voting in the same way. To me, Oregon is the model. All of their voting is done by mail. Everyone who wants to vote, can vote and ballots are verified by matching signatures on the ballots to signatures in the voter registration books. They had no problems that I'm aware of.

[mcscajun]

18. I'm the one who voted "can never be proven."

Now don't start flaming me. I'm not saying there wasn't fraud…or that we shouldn't try to prove it, or that there are folks who may even have some evidence.

I just believe the powers that be are too carefully entrenched and their tentacles too tightly wrapped around the mechanisms of power, including the voting machines, for us ever to be able to "prove" the case. Would that it were otherwise.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't be continuing to fight for open source code, public control of the voting process, and paper trails.

Next.

[EFerrari]

22. No flame. I'll be next. We can't put it behind us if we ever

want to have our votes counted.

Every election has some cr@P in it. We're way beyond "some" and into "total" now.

So, no, we can't put this behind us. Maybe work in a 2-fold way -- on securing the vote and on the next wave of candidates. But our majority effort must be, MUST BE on securing our votes or we're leading both candidates and voters off a cliff.

I personally am not into premeditated self-destruction.

[googly]

75. Unfortunately, they have half of the country, white house, senate,

the house, supreme court, most governorships and MORE MONEY.
We have a formidable task on our hands but that is no reason
to put the tail between legs and give up.

[understandinglife]

21. Prove My Vote Was Counted As I Intended. Prove Your Vote Was...

...Counted As You Intended.

Prove Your Fellow Citizen's Vote Was Counted As They Intended.

Just Prove It.

For the 2004 National Election -- You Can't.

No one can.

We Have No Election.

Move on if you like your democracy as vapor and fantasy.

Fix it now if you like your democracy, for real.



BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION; 24/7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=298839&mesg_id=298839

[super simian]

27. I agree!

The burden of proof should be on the "winners" to prove that they have a right to office. Everything shifted in 2000 when the supreme court took that burden of proof off of * and stopped the recount. That was a much greater blow to this democracy that anything that ever happened on 9/11. Go figure.

[Up2Late]

23. I didn't vote because...

...their wasn't a choice for "I'll Drop it, as soon as those GD Washington (State) Repukes Drop it!"

Those hypocritical Bastards are still pushing their "because we didn't Win, :cry:Now we want a Re-Vote" thing. :grr:

Un-F*cking Believable :grr:

[mousie]

26. NOW is the time!

We have to continue fighting with the evidence we've got to make a change in our election process, and hopefully even uncover the fraud once and for all! IF we just "accept" this now, what does that say?! We absolutely CANNOT just accept what has happened here! OUR democracy is at stake! It's up to us to fight, to not let them get away with it, and to not give in! No WAY can we give up on this fight!! This is a crime against our rights and against our country. We MUST resolve this!

[super simian]

30. I'm with you...

I don 't know what there is to fight for if we can't fight for the integrity of the vote and we all saw what happened when we left it to the legislature to clear the path for a fair election.

[eaglenetsupport]

32. It's Time All Right

Time to put it behind us by putting it in front of us. IMHO the dems lied to us when they said "never again". They had four years to fix it. Now that it is over and all the problems come to light one can go back and deduce pathetically little was done. Now it's our turn.

Soon we will release what will become Colorado’s Affirmative action response to the electoral debacle. I believe it will be the model for the nation. We have a number of groups in a number of states looking at our language. Our initiative covers all the bases. We viewed all the tactics being put to use by the republicans, with particular emphasis on the final ten points released at the end of the Conyers Report (Preserving Democracy – What Went Wrong in Ohio) on what occurred in Ohio. No paper trail, illegal, same day registration, the law. Party heads paid or volunteer can’t hold a position in election processes. Equipment, must be certified under strict guidelines . It creates a Commission that is charged with the responsibility of maintaining fair elections by the strict guidelines set out in the Act, The Independent Elections Commission. The Commission is charged with regulating such matters as number of booths per precinct and procedures governing the conduct of poll workers. The Initiative creates two class 3 felonies for those who would attempt to disenfranchise voters by any means and a conspiracy statute when two or more commit an act in furtherance, is a class 2 felony. The initiative gives broad public investigative powers including the right to subpoena and compel testimony, and the requirement to promulgate administrative rules for it’s conduct under The Administrative Procedures Act. The Act will pretty much dump everything added in the HAVA (Help America Vote Act) and replaces it with something that will actually count every vote. We intend to create a national agenda by simultaneous release of multiple state initiatives with the same goal. Reform democracy. The politicians aren't going to do what we will do. Frankly, there is no other way.

Counsel For Government in Exile

[oscar111]

33. Watergate took 2 yrs to unravel: we will keep fraud front and center till

GOP is booted out of the white house, where it never belonged.

However long it takes.

[Up2Late]

35. I wouldn't say lied, I think...

...it was more like "wishful thinking."

Even I, who had long before concluded that this election WOULD be stolen via e-voting fraud, had a few days there, near the end of October, when I forgot about all that, and thought, "maybe it won't happen, maybe we will win.":tinfoilhat:

Remember, Kerry Did NOT Lose! Bush was SUCCESSFUL in cheating America, AGAIN!:grr:

[eaglenetsupport]

40. "I wouldn't say lied, I think..."

Well I guess I think they got me. After 2000 everyone knew there were problems to work out. I guess I'll fall on my sword because I didn't take the time to look up HAVA, I didn't here any alarms being rung. I did here Jimmy Carter about three weeks before write in the times that Florida wouldn't pass the minimum standards set for third world UN elections monitoring standards. But I really think the dems should have actually looked at the results of the pathetic HAVA.

We have this republican form of government so individuals can became experts on particular subjects and make rational determinations for us all. In matters of election reform this must move to the next level. We can no longer trust the democrats will dig into these issues to the degree necessary. Therefore we the people must do it.

[Jo March]

65. Amen and welcome to DU!

We're mighty glad to have you. :hi:

[demodonkey]

36. Put Fraud Behind Us? Then let's put DEMOCRACY...

behind us too.

[Orsino]

57. Yeah.

"Put it behind us" sounds so...fatuous. What is that actually supposed to mean? That when the croooks get away, they should never be prosecuted, and that we are suppposed to forget that the crimes never happend?

Why should these particular croooks get a pass--just because of the magnitude of their crimes?

[bardgal]

38. HERE IT IS> A NATIONAL BAN ON E-VOTING. GOING TO PAPER-ONLY BALLOTS....

STRICTLY HAND COUNTED, WITH TRANSPARENCY, OVERSIGHT, AND MANY OBSERVERS.

PERIOD.

THIS SHOULD BE WHERE EVERY LAST OUNCE OF OUR ENERGY IS EXPENDED.

YOU'LL KNOW WE'VE NAILED IT WHEN THEY FIGHT US ON THIS EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. AND THEY WILL, I'D BET THE MORTGAGE ON IT.

[kster]

39. For now

we have to fight two fronts prosecutions for the election fraud thats been documented and securing paper ballots ,both are equally important .

[eaglenetsupport]

44. "HERE IT IS> A NATIONAL BAN ON E-VOTING. GOING TO PAPER-ONLY BALLOTS...."

We stopped short in the Colorado Initiative of out right banning puters in elections, but instead put in place strict guidelines in the certification of which machines are acceptable.

My own opinion, speaking as the owner of an ISP and WEB hosting service with extensive experience in security matters I must fall back to the old hackers adage, 'LOW TECH RULES'. It's not that it couldn't be done accurately and securely but it would cost more money than the nation should expend for an affair that comes along one day every two years. For the 1000-2000 registrants at each precinct I think we can handle a hand count in an hour or so at each station. That's how we always did it and that's how we should continue to do it until computers are so cheap and reliable that it's better than traditional by hand methods. Less than twenty years I'd say. The 'in the mean time' solution is, keep the little old ladies in tennis shoes at the ready. They will provide the trust we need.


BTW in the just for the record department, every single election computer that doesn't have a paper trail is illegal, irrelevant of whether or not it was challenged in court. Every state has trigger points, usually half a percentage point, where a manual recount must occur. Any rule/law allowing a machine with no ability to conduct recounts renders that rule in conflict with a preexisting law. Where was the loyal opposition when this was being done. This would not have been a difficult injunction.

[super simian]

52. I always thought....

...that unverifiable voting would be illegal for just the reason you say. So why isn't it? That's what I don't understand. Evidently Democratic senators weren't even given an opportunity to introduce legislation that would mandate paper trails.

Why can't we just outlaw voting technology that makes recounts impossible? And/or shouldn't it already be illegal? If it is in conflict with existing law, could there be successful court challenges?

And anyway, what's wrong with checking off a box with a pencil the way they do in Europe?

:think:

[eaglenetsupport]

76. "I always thought...."

There are illegal **read as unconstitutional** laws written all the time. If they aren't challenged or improperly challenged, in court the law remains on the books until quashed in the courts.

There were a couple challenges to no paper trail machines pre-election. One was thrown out as no one had been harmed yet. There is a way to head-off injury at the pass before it occurs, but not the way that case was brought. Poor legal maneuvering I'd call it. Similarly, the other case I looked at had poor legal maneuvers, and didn't make the link/point that no recount was possible with no record. So in reality that case hasn't been tested to my knowledge as I don't consider those cases properly argued.

YES we can make it illegal to use machines that make recounts impossible. My point is that, in effect, we already have by making recount capabilities mandatory.

You asked,
********Evidently Democratic senators weren't even given an opportunity to introduce legislation that would mandate paper trails.*********

I think there was a lot of half-baked political work done before the election. That's what has me so upset.

This may sound a little goofy but I don't blame republicans as I except there has and always will be republicans in every country and every time period by any number of names. It's a humane thing. The Russians might call them communists, and the Germans might call them Nazis. In every society there is always a group attempting to claim the right to tell every one else what is right and what is wrong. We've just allowed our ethno/ego-centrists to get out of hand.

[glitch]

73. Excellent and welcome to DU - hand counts at precinct level is the

most efficient and cost-effective way to get an accurate vote count. Distributed computing at it's finest!
Also - I think if we had absentee ballots that people filled out at home and then dropped off at the polls on election day, where they sign in on the poll logs, we could eliminate a lot of the old fashioned fraud as well.

[shiina]

42. not unless you want to put democracy behind you, too...

[Laurab]

43. Put fraud behind us - Long live the King!

If we don't DEMAND it be fixed, voting will be just a formality, as it probably was this year. They're not arrogant enough to take 100% yet, but they sure are moving in that direction. Actually, they probably are arrogant enough, but maybe they like to come out of their bunkers once in awhile.

[googly]

46. Here is how to have a clean election:

1. Create a central data base of voters, run by the
department of Justice civil servants

2. Each and every voter will be given a unique ID number.
To obtain this ID number, the voter will be required to
furnish social security number, birth date and proof of
citizenship. That will make it extremely difficult to
create ghost voters.

3. Every voting machine in the country must generate a
post-card with a bar code printed to indicate the
voters unique ID and for whom he/she voted.

4. The voter will drop the post-card in the mail, and all
these post-cards will go to a central address such the IRS
uses for us to mail our returns.

5. The computers can then cross check the votes recorded
by the voting machines with the mailed in post-cards.

With above system, every vote can be counted, checked,
and secured. Our democracy deserves a reliable system.

[imenja]

48. Work on reform

Concentrate on improving things for the future. Don't dwell on this past election for the sake of it. Put your outrage to productive purposes.

[New Earth]

49. i think each should what they feel is their calling

some would like to focus on exposing whatever fraud was in this election and they should, while those who would like to focus more on reform should do just that.

i think both working on each respective issue and discussing it all with eachother makes a strong force.

[super simian]

51. Hi, Faye!

:hi: Thanks for all you did in DC! It was amazing to watch what was shown of the protests on C-Span. I was amazed that they even convered it! They actually gave out contact info for A.N.S.W.E.R. So helpful!

I agree with your post, but am having a hard time putting this behind me. Maybe it's my age or something, but I feel like it's too late to fix the future. I want to fix the present! So I guess I'll just do whatever I can.

I am sure this election was rigged and it's really hard to take thinking of * in the WH with his little family feeling oh so special and enjoying all the privileges that go with being president of this country. It's hard not to feel bitter and resentful, but I guess life goes on and we have to learn to take the good with the bad. I just can't stand to look at his face. It's all so wrong! (Wonder if we're going to be treated to any White House weddings this time around? That would be really special! :puke:)

[Vidar]

58. Agreed nt

[tandem5]

50. if we put fraud behind us we put our democracy behind us too. nt

[Wabbajack]

54. Nothing else matters

if we don't have fair elections. Dems will never elect a President or win a majority in congress if the elections are fixed.

[myschkin]

55. what a silly poll

if something was wrong, we can´t go further... (like 2000? see you again at the same step in 2008)

[super simian]

60. I believe...

...that was the point I was trying to make with my silly poll! :hi:

[Hugin]

59. NEVER!

Appeasers!

:grr:

[bush_is_wacko]

61. Dropping election fraud issues is EXACTLY what BushCo wants us to do!

Why would I want to do what they want me to do?

[super simian]

62. Agreed!

And here is an encouraging thread just started about a new legal challenge in Ohio:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x299650

Let's not rest until Chimp is impeached.

[bush_is_wacko]

63. Read the post. Happy to see more to come!

Actuallly, I would love to see Chimpy resign in disgrace, like Nixon, over impeachment charges. It is going to take a lot of work to accomplish this, but impeachment proceedings does not insure he will have to leave. I am hopeful, but not convinced, thugs will sign on to impeachment. I couldn't stand to see him remain in office bcause the thugs filibustered! I want to see him, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, daddy *, Condi, and many others hanging their heads in shame while carrying their bags and boxes out of the White House en masse. Fantasy scenerio, probably, but damn it sounds good!

[super simian]

70. That is my fantasy, too.

Call it a vision, a premonition. They have gone too far, and it is time for the pendulum to swing back.... our way!

:bounce:

[babsbunny]

66. Oh BoY!

I am feeling good about this! If we keep talking about the stolen election, then the people who actually have the power to do something will keep trying!!!:toast:

[Peace Patriot]

67. Beware! BushCon Congress is NOT going to repair an election system...

...that "selects" THEM and keeps the Fuhrer in the White House.

They will make it worse if they can.

Democrats have no power in Congress to repair the election system, and their past history on this issue is not good. In fact, it's mind-boggling. They let this happen!

$3.5 BILLION to the states. Maybe that's it. I don't know, really. I'm casting about for explanations. Long and short of it is, Democrats seem to lack the focus, the will and even the INTEREST in having transparent, non-BushCon-controlled elections. Go figure.

With a couple of exceptions, Conyers, Boxer--who can keep the issue alive, but cannot solve it---and could well get led down the garden path, say, of a Constitutional Amendment that Gonzales will ignore and not enforce, or even worse...

BushCons and weak Democrats agree to force electronic voting on the states (even moreso than now), take away the public's power to demand paper ballots and hand counts at the state level, and include deceptive poison pills--something that looks good but isn't, like paper RECEIPT (no status in a recount) instead of paper BALLOT (takes precedence over electronic tally in any recount).

I think we have to get this done LOCALLY, state by state, with highly focused grass roots efforts--while we still can. It's DOABLE. We have more power and influence locally (or potentially so). Most people would agree that transparent elections are essential. WE are the majority!

[super simian]

71. Need a plan

It is important that Conyers and Boxer have taken some important leadership on this issue. What we need is a plan (1) to keep pressing on the crimes against democracy that put Chimp in the WH and (2) a centralized strategic movement to push for election reform at the local level, as you say. (3) Would be to find a way to make these two plans work together and compliment each other. I would like to see a legal challenge to unverifiable voting since recounts are mandated under certain circumstances. Any chance that could happen and hold up in court?

:kick:

[eaglenetsupport]

80. Well, there seems to be a lul, and I've detected

that moral might be a bit low, so I decided to go off topic with a story to lift your spirts and to demo hope.

In 1986, much turmoil surrounded the implementation of the Martin Luther King holiday. Many states were considering eliminating the recognition of the holiday. The federal government (republiclones really) was trial ballooning canceling the federal holiday as “a mistake” and “too expensive”. In my state, Arizona at the time, the republicans ran Evan Mecham for governor with one of the center pieces of his agenda, canceling Martin Luther King’s holiday in the state, complete with grandiose ideas about leading the fight in the whole country. In his first official act of duty (not counting swearing in), he stepped to the mike and uttered his famous statement, “Martin Luther Kings’ birthday is hereby canceled by executive order”. He used executive order so he could do it in days, as the birthday was a week so away. Spontaneously, without any organization or prearrangements an estimated 25,000 protesters showed up at the governor’s mansion in Phoenix and around 15,000 in Tucson. It really helped that a couple radio stations were broadcasting ‘get there or be square’ messages. The NAACP in Phoenix began circulating a non-binding, essentially an opinion petition bearing no wait of law, and I followed suit as an organizer in Tucson, made copies and caused it to be circulated at the spontaneous demo there. By the end of the day between Phoenix and Tucson in a matter of two or three hours, we collected 25,000 signatures.

Recognizing an official legal petition calling for a recall only needed 76,000 signatures, (and six months to do it) to order a recall election, I formed a committee called The Counsel for Government in Exile, which would latter be known as The Mecham Watchdog Committee. However it was the original name that tweaked the people’s interest.

The press came out stumbling all over itself to cover our famous (at least in Arizona) “make our day document” as they thought it was funny. Little did they know we where as serious as a heart attack. We challenged Mecham to go ahead and ignore this document that stated he had 72 hours to reinstate the holiday. Regular politicos gave our effort NO CHANCE. After all the governor was just placed into office with a 70% victory were he said openly he was going to cancel the holiday. As expected, indeed part of the plan, he blew us off allowing us to challenge the electorate.

The first thing we did was solicit and organize the Rock and Roll bands to boycott the state and cancel their concerts until the holiday was reinstated. Every single band complied. Now we had ALL the kids, whom wanted their concerts back and didn’t want to wait four years to get them back. We then formed another committee called Rockers for Recall, who could say things we couldn’t say as we had quite a few republicans on the Mecham Watchdog Committee. Our plan was to massively register the kids at concerts. Rockers for Recall convinced the bands to come back because they would be welcome if they were contributing to fixing the Mecham problem. Thus we killed two birds with one stone. We knew we had the support of enough people it was always a matter of how were we going to pay for it. We figured it would cost $285,000 that we didn’t have.

It just so happened that the first band to come up on the schedule was U2, an unfortunate happenstance for soon to be MR. Mecham. As was normal for our generation at the time, it was culture and not political speeches that drove the “masses”. The state attempted to bar our tabling/registering/petitioning activities at the concerts as they owned or controlled the venues. Bono, after all the tickets were sold, came to the state and refused to play unless the restrictions against us were lifted. It came right down to the last hour before the concert was to begin, and the state gave in, permitting our registrations. With great leadership for the bands to follow he also gave us 10% of the gate in Phoenix and 15% of the gate in Tucson. At the mid-point of the concert they came to the part were they play the two songs about MLK. First he said, “If we had a man like this in Ireland, our country would be a much more peaceful place”. For an intro to the second MLK song he only said,

“Mr. Mecham……” (short pause) (Bono speaking)

“We have one thing to say to you………………” (looong 7-8 second quiet pause and after he was sure everyone was listening)…. “BOO…………”

At which point the entire audience erupted in about a five minute BOOOO. That was our queue throughout the audience to distribute 3x4 cuts of our message register…register…register, and other tasty proclamations and propaganda. On the way into the concert most folks just walked by maybe glancing over and wondering what we were doing or generally not paying too much attention. On the way out they stopped to register and sign the recall petition in droves. An hour and a half later there were still people standing in lines to register and sign the recall petition. We registered almost 6,000 kids that first night. So to anyone wondering how the first successful recall of a sitting governor in American history came about, tell them it was the kids. In all we registered 330,000 (upwards of 90% all at concerts) new voters in a state with 1.1 million eligible. That’s nearly a 33% registration, unprecedented in American history. We turned in more signatures than Mecham got votes that put him in office, and in fact more sigs than both candidates votes combined in the general election. Two days before the recall election his own republican Senate threw him out of office by impeachment rather than face an election where Mecham showed 25-30% support in the recall election. To my knowledge not another single politician has shown any propensity to attack the holiday again from that time forward. The opponents to the MLK holiday virtually disappeared over night never to be seen or heard from again.

The lesson was clear. Creative enlightenment, cultural use and respect, combined with a real and tangible procedure, produces change and empowerment. Empowerment somehow sounds like an old cliché out of the sixties. It’s not. Empowerment is the key. When the electorate sees real change, at their own hands, one best get the hell out of the way lest you get run over, because voter or non-voter they’ll beat a path to that booth.

Initiatives are great vehicles for empowerment. Woodrow Wilson once said, “Sometimes the people need a good broom. Initiatives make a good broom”. Politically, we need an affirmative action response.

[super simian]

81. God, what an incredible story!

This should be part of a book about the success of grassroots efforts. Someone on the ground should make a handbook for what needs to be done at the grassroots level to impeach Bush, expose election theft, and demand immediate reforms. Getting some rainmakers like celebrities and rock stars would obviously be key as in the scenario that you describe here. Plus a whole lot of people who just won't give up and take no for an answer when they know they are in the right.

But what has changed even since the 80s? A couple of radio stations played a key role in this too, and would we have them now with the listenership with the Clear Channel monopoly, etc? Obviously the internet could be huge, but the problem would be how to coordinate all of the many different election reform movements.

The media is a huge problem. For example I talked to my sister today. She is a democrat and fairly aware politically, but she had no idea what was really going on with the Condi-liar Rice hearings. She watches the MSM news and the only thing she knew about it was the one soundbyte "We can have this conversation any way you like, but please don't impugn my integrity." All of my sister's sympathy went to poor Condi-liar who stood up with such dignity for her "integrity." When I pointed out that Boxer and others were just trying to get her to explain the many ways her own statements contradicted each other and contradicted the facts, my sister was amazed. Not surprisingly, she had never heard that other soundbyte about how the tsunami was such a "wonderful opportunity" for us to show the world what good guys we are. So the word is just not getting out there, and when it is, it's distorted.

Your story about the recall reminds me, of course, of what happened in MY wonderful state last year. Now they can pay people to gather signatures so fast that it will make your head spin. And I swear that alot of the signatures they got to recall Davis were by lying to people about what they were really signing. But that's another whole story!

But, I totally believe in what you are saying here. When I was a kid we hated the cafeteria food and so we all boycotted the cafeteria until they changed it and I really saw very early on what power people have when they are organized and work together. We all brought our lunch for about 10 tens, and they were practically weeping with despair when NOBODY bought their food and it all had to be fed to the pigs. In the end they met every one of our demands.

So, I'm with you and I'm in and I'm not giving up. I like the initiatives idea. I've seen it work and it's the one place they can't paralyze the system with a deadly dose of neocon-itis.

:yourock:

[mbee]

68. Until the guilty are fully punished for the election fraud, fake wars,

energy theft, etc. I plan to only buy what I need and try not to give any of my money to these criminals or their business backers. The media should be punished too because they are the biggest enablers. People should cancel their newspapers and turn off the TV.

[super simian]

72. I never watch the news anymore....

...(except c-span) and now I notice Democracy Now! is on the Link channel. Nor do I read newspapers or even browse new sites like I used to. It's all lies, anyway!

[FreepFryer]

69. "Is it time to become a Republican drone?" Both answers: NO! NO! NO!

[berniew1]

77. Documentation: widespread vote machine fraud and dirty tricks in 15 states

Widespread systematic vote machine fraud, and dirty tricks and suppression of minority registration and voting in many states in 2004 Election: summary of some of the documentation

http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html

[berniew1]

78. Question is now: who's going to follow up in each state to see that

those who committed illegal or unethical actions are dealt with in the proper manner? Thats a next step.

And also making sure the election system is reformed to make this type of widespread corruption more difficult next election.

But publicizing the widespread fraud and dirty tricks is the first step. Most of the public, Media, Congress haven't seen this documentation.

[super simian]

82. Great link!

Thanks! I bookmarked that one! :toast:

[I_equals_PRT]

79. i really think we have to stop paying taxes, hit 'em where it hurts

they didn't count our votes did they? taxation without representation is unconstitutional isn't it? let's all file in April a return stating we were exempt because our votes weren't counted. This will only work if millions of us do it simultaneously. It requires that liberals act in concert with each other in a way we are not accustomed to. But if we could cooperate we could hurt them this way. It requires millions of participants because if participation is only in the thousands they will just toss a few thousand in jail and be thrilled about how their incarceration industry is growing. You know they love to make industries out of human struggles, like, for instance, health insurance, prescription drug costs, disability, welfare, unemployment, social security, and prisons. They hate to waste a perfectly good tragedy if they can make a buck on it. So, it really would have to be so many of us that the coffers ran dry before they could lock us all up.

[Democrat Dragon]

83. First we need to uncover fraud...

Then use this as a case for making election reform a big issue.

[Stevepol]

84. If I put it behind me, the Repubs will keep it in front of me.

I was tempted to vote fot the one about legislation being able to solve the electoral problems. I don't see how you can have fair elections w/o more legislation. But that means a loud and open movement for reform of the voting machines. Unless there's a nation-wide movement to reform the way the votes are counted, the Repubs are not going to do doodly squat. If there's a loud and unified and unremitting protest that doesn't stop for anything, then they'll have to do something. In time, maybe the Dems will develop a little spine, maybe w/ the help of Dean and Boxer and Greg Palast et al.

DEMAND A VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOT AND FAIR AUDITS FOR ALL ELECTIONS.

[super simian]

85. Well said!

And let's make it retroactive. Wouldn't it be funny (lol) if the proof that Gore won was acknowledged and then that Kerry won was acknowledged and we had to reinstate both of them retroactively. Far-fetched, but the only scenario that would truly satisfy the democrat in me even though I am struggling to find the best place to put my efforts into the democracy of the future.

:bounce:

[eaglenetsupport]

86. "If I put it behind me, the Repubs will keep it in front of me."

Nope, can't be done without better legislation.

Well, not just in comment to your posting but to the general atmosphere with the ideas about reforming the election process seems to be not very well understood and many times misunderstood. It seems to be this big giant thing that we should demand from some unknown somebody. It seems this list screams out to me for a HOW-TO. So I’m in the process of writing it now and it should be up before mid-night.

Were-as I have extensive experience in the initiative procedure, feel free to pick my brains as I am willing to share what I know. When I say extensive let me rephrase that to I don’t know anyone who knows as much about the initiative procedure than me. I’ve been either directly involved or on the periphery of virtually all the big well know initiative procedures accomplished in the last 20 years or so. Including many of the Med Mars, one in California to buy up and save the redwood headwaters, One for my present state Colorado called C-SINS, Coloradoans for Shut Down Initiative of Nuclear Systems, (we withdrew that one because the power of our president was so great the DOE just decided to shutdown Rocky Flats before our idea caught on in other states, we would have required them to hold an election each time, to move nuclear materials that didn’t contribute to the cleanup, across the high-ways and by-ways in the state which WE had control and not the FEDS), I wrote Proposition One including all the research in the 23 states we targeted, (a year and a half of legal work at the library of Congress in DC.) and one of my shining stars the Mecham Watchdog Committee, the first successful recall of a sitting governor in American history, I started the Committee and wrote the plan, (hope you had time to read post #80) and a few others. I don’t know how long I will be able to be on this site as I’m busy laying down a new concept on the net called an XXXX-Blog (classified at the moment - top secret) so pick away now while you got the chance. But first, to demo how easy and fun it is I got a story, forgive me, a short story.

***********
My partner and I were really burned out after a grueling 14 months doing the Arizona Recall. We just wanted to kickback for awhile and recuperate and decided to travel around for awhile (and troll for some big fish maybe, we were feeling pretty feisty at the time) to plug into something else. We decided to do a little cream cheese street theater so we bought white shirts, black suits and ties, shoes, black dress hats, black sunglasses and called our selves the Rights Brothers, fashioned after the John Bulushi movie The Blues Brothers. We had all these skits worked out were we’d show up selected places with real serious statements like “We heard your republicans were getting out of shape so we came as soon as we could” and “We’re on a mission from GOD”. I was Elroy. We did Florida (real well I might add) and when we got to Ft. Lauderdale we decided to break out the suits and do the beach. It just so happened that that was the first weekend of a new law on the beach known locally as the anti-cruising ordinance. It was a big thing to the kids and there where about a hundred kids (high school aged) out there on the main intersection of the beach with signs and things protesting. We were a big hit with the protesters. There were a couple of girls there about 17 years old clasping clip boards that seemed to be at the center of things. We talked to them and they told us about how they had this mayor who was a real drag. (Apparently he was some kind of evangelical whipping up hysteria for personnel political gain, we deduced). We told them how they didn’t have to take it laying down and they could do something about it. We told them what we just did in Arizona, they were psyched. I advised them in this case not to go for an initiative to over turn the ordinance, but should do a recall on the mayor because he will be back again with more stupid laws and they would get more publicity to go for the jugular. But how do they do it they wondered. I gave them initiative 101, a simple set of instructions that if they followed it they would eventually dump the anti-cruising ordinance and the mayor to boot. I told them to start right here right now with those clip boards in their hands. Start collecting signatures on a petition of those that don’t like the ordinance or the mayor. One started taking notes. It would take a couple months or more to get the real petition that will do the trick and order the election. The sigs you get in the mean time are your repository of workers and your committee so to speak that you will need. They are who you represent. I told them how to go down to the election board and get the instructions on how to order a recall and how many sigs they would need. I wrote them out just some very basic language on their first organizing petition and some basic language for the legal petition like should the City of Ft. Lauderdale hold a recall election for mayor so and so. We left and went down to Key West were we did a little street theater cream cheese with the Rights Brothers in the press and organized the cleanup of Pine Island (it was extraordinarily junked out) by local citizen volunteers, (to this day they still keep it clean). About ten days or so on the way out of the state we stopped back in to see how the girls were doing. We found them right were we left them on the beach. This time they were circulating petitions, fervently I might add. They were following our instructions to the letter. We stayed around a few days and did a Rights Brothers radio call-in show for them. We also organized a little march on Broward County republican headquarters were we ate cake. We got some good press as the media where thoroughly amused.

That was the last time we seen them. They must have paid pretty good attention because about nine months or so later I was sitting in a casino in Vegas reading the local paper and there way back on about page 9 was a little two-paragraph article titled “Ft. Lauderdale Recalls Mayor”. It mentioned the anti-cruising ordinance as the impudence and the girls who did it were quoted that they owe it to the Rights Brothers who nobody knew who they where or were they are now. The moral of the story is if these two high school girls, political neophytes mind you, with only a total of an hour or so of instructions could do this then anybody could do what is necessary to right a wrong law. It’s not hard. It doesn’t take a fist full of attorneys. It doesn’t take a bank role as the quality of the idea drives the politics and provides a life of it’s own. The only question to begin is, ‘do the people want this’? Everything else takes care of itself.

[super simian]

87. Another great story!

So how would you answer your own question. "Do the people want this?"

I am encouraged by the response to my poll and see that I am in excellent company, but this is of course DU and hardly representative of mainstream USA! :shrug:

[eaglenetsupport]

88. "Another great story!"

It's far greater than that. We are witnessing a revolution. The next great revolution in the world won't happen on the streets as we first thought, and it won't be off in China or Russia or somewhere. It will happen in the booth and will happen right here in good old USA. A protest vote the likes of which no-one can imagine possible is eminent. Mark my words. We're in a long range conservative trend (the common belief in the world) is demagogueries emanating from right wing media and their circles. No, our world is progressive and liberal and we are in the process of creating the world that we will leave to our children. I've been doing this kind of stuff for better that thirty years and I can tell you Bush is the greatest impudence for change that's come along in my lifetime. The Bush debacle is not a bummer but an opportunity we've pray for. We will strike while the iron is hot.

[super simian]

89. I love the way you think!

I didn't mean "story" in any diminishing way. It's just a word for events recounted after the fact.

Once when the internet first came along, someone said that the next revolution would be over the internet. At the time it sounded right, but I wasnt' sure what it meant. Now I am beginning to see the importance of being able to communicate a shared vision over long distance, stranger-to-stranger. It lights up the path.

Thanks for your word!

[eaglenetsupport]

91. Turnout implications - electoral reform by Initiative procedure....

There will be a short delay in the promised HOW-TO with the new target sometime before mid-night tonight MST. As I was fashioning it, it became obvious that some might not follow the implications without at least a modicum of analysis of the electorate.
So that will come first followed by my HOW-TO.

Keeping it short enough for ingestion but long enough to include sufficient information for the blog format has proven quite a challenge for me. I beg your indulgence as I’m perfecting what I think needs to be said.

Much hullabaloo has been made of the “fantastic” registration efforts that went into the 2004 “election”. There were some advances in a few states, but most of them were about normal. About 50% turnouts, six states ranged 52-58% where registration efforts were enhanced, with California still chiming in at the bottom with 38%. Now keep in mind as you read this, when they talk about turnout they’re talking about the percentage of REGISTERED voters, not percentage of potential voters.

Presidentially speaking, and in rough figures for easy digestion, half of those eligible to vote don’t register. Half of those don’t show up on Election Day. The 25% that does “decide” are split almost equally between democrats and republicans. So about 13% elects the winner against the perceived best interests of 87% of the electorate. The majority either didn’t believe enough or actually opposed the winner. So to understand this “problem” one must delve into this demographic group, the non-voter. The non-voter is the one and only “growth sector” in politics.

First: the situation has its roots in the Vietnam War era “drop out movement” or the so-called hippie movement. “Hell no I don’t vote”, was worn like a badge of honor. They are predominantly baby boomers. The two generations behind us have generally the same agenda and in roughly similar numbers but seem to be waiting for us to make a move or lead. Polls show that should the non-voter, vote, they have always come down on the democratic side to the tune of 80% plus.

Second: the right wing wishes to write off and or demonize these folks as “apathetic”. Apathy is presented as ‘I don’t care’. However in discussions with the non-voter one learns rather quickly that these folks in fact have an agenda. They have already stopped a war, mostly in the streets, without ever entering the booth in any substantial numbers. They believe in clean air, clean water, ridding the world of nuclear weapons, equal rights for all and general peace and justice issues leading to peace in our time and more. Almost all have the same common belief that if they did go into the booth and pull that handle no good would come of it. In short these people do in fact “care”, they’ve just lost faith that pulling that handle would do it. If in fact the boomers didn’t care, we would be in a substantially worse situation then we really are. The generation is so “fad prone” and love to do things “in mass” that once registration becomes “the thing to do” we will witness an inundation of the political system. A mere 5% pulls us even and a 10% (which we believe should be our target figure) overwhelms the election when joined together with the 45% progressives currently in the party already. In short we will write the platform, and the quality of that platform will seal us with a majority for a long time to come, probably one or two decades at least, depending on world events. The Republican Party may even cease to exist as a viable entity to win the national office, that is, once registration becomes the thing to do.