Just in case you missed it: HUGE NEW MADSEN ARTICLE "CHRISTIAN MAFIA"

[KingoftheJungle]

Where Those Who Now Run the U.S. Government Came From and Where They Are Taking Us



By Wayne Madsen


Part I


After several months of in-depth research and, at first, seemingly unrelated conversations with former high-level intelligence officials, lawyers, politicians, religious figures, other investigative journalists, and researchers, I can now report on a criminal conspiracy so vast and monstrous it defies imagination. Using “Christian” groups as tax-exempt and cleverly camouflaged covers, wealthy right-wing businessmen and “clergy” have now assumed firm control over the biggest prize of all – the government of the United States of America. First, some housekeeping is in order. My use of the term “Christian” is merely to clearly identify the criminal conspirators who have chosen to misuse their self-avowed devotion to Jesus Christ to advance a very un-Christian agenda. The term “Christian Mafia” is what several Washington politicians have termed the major conspirators and it is not intended to debase Christians or infer that they are criminals . I will also use the term Nazi – not for shock value – but to properly tag the political affiliations of the early founders of the so-called “Christian” power cult called the Fellowship. The most important element of this story is that a destructive religious movement has now achieved almost total control over the machinery of government of the United States – its executive, its legislature, several state governments, and soon, the federal judiciary, including the U.S. Supreme Court.



The United States has experienced religious and cult hucksters throughout its history, from Cotton Mather and his Salem witch burners to Billy Sunday, Father Charles Coughlin, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, and others. But none have ever achieved the kind of power now possessed by a powerful and secretive group of conservative politicians and wealthy businessmen in the United States and abroad who are known among their adherents and friends as The Fellowship or The Family. The Fellowship and its predecessor organizations have used Jesus in the same way that McDonald’s uses golden arches and Coca Cola uses its stylized script lettering. Jesus is a logo and a slogan for the Fellowship. Jesus is used to justify the Fellowship’s access to the highest levels of government and business in the same way Santa Claus entices children into department stores and malls during the Christmas shopping season.


more...

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm

[Helga Scow Stern]

1. Yay! Can't wait to read it. n/t

[fooj]

2. OMG...Almost too much to comprehend in just one read!

One thing certainly comes to mind- with Rove's shady and ruthless dealings going back decades, shouldn't there be some "dirt" to nail this bastard once and for all? Also, can it be proven that the "gap" in Shrub's National Guard was, in fact, for cocaine possession and resulted in his stay in San Diego? This is all just too surreal!

[AntiFascist]

3. What Madsen says on the Fellowship stealing the 2004 election...

The prime target was Ohio, where the Fellowship and its fundamentalist allies had built up a vast network of operatives in state and local government, including state agencies and county election boards. But more importantly, the Fellowship had links to the election machine companies that would be crucial to fixing election results in Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, and other states – ensuring that Fellowship core member George W. Bush had four more years to put a practically indelible fundamentalist stamp on the United States. The money invested over the years by Lennon, Armington, Lindner, and other right-wing Ohio captains of industry in fundamentalist Christian causes and think tanks like the Ashbrook Center finally paid off. The Ohio Secretary of State, Kenneth Blackwell, who, copying Katherine Harris’s antics in Florida’s fraudulent 2000 election, used his government position and his co-chairmanship of Bush’s state election campaign to suppress the vote, especially in largely Democratic African-American districts.

Blackwell, who, as a former Deputy Undersecretary of HUD, was well versed in the art of distributing Bush political slush fund money and ensured that this was distributed far and wide in Ohio. This money is what Republican strategist Ed Rollins once called “walking around money” – money used by Republicans in New Jersey’s elections to pay off African American preachers to turn out the vote for their candidates. In Ohio, this tactic paid off in polling places in churches. Instead of turning out the vote, some local preachers, white and black, aided and abetted in suppressing the vote. One of Blackwell’s closest friends is fundamentalist preacher Ron Parsley of World Harvest Church. At the New Life fundamentalist church in the Gahanna District of Columbus, machines tallied 4258 votes for Bush when only a total of 628 votes were cast. Similar chicanery and racketeering occurred throughout Ohio and in other states during the vote tabulation and recounting processes. Two of the voting machine companies contracted by Ohio are headed by people who are conservative Republican partisans – Walden O’Dell, the CEO of Diebold of Columbus and the Rapp family that runs Triad Government Systems of Xenia, Ohio. Both brand of machines caused election problems in Ohio and elsewhere.

[OKJackson]

78. A key into the kingdom of "The Family?"

This would appear to be a key to the kingdom, so to speak.

http://dailykos.com/comments/2005/1/31/93126/4150/228#228

They've found a link that ties one of Bush's paid shills to the freaky-deaky stuff we know the pugs are doing behind their Christ facade and at the same time, also points to the Christ facade itself. Talk about sloppy work, but their sloppiness works for us, so let's not be mad about it and just use it to our advantage to retake our republic from the fascist theocrats.

[ebayfool]

4. kick n/t

[ebayfool]

5. Can you also post in GD-politics? This needs to be looked at by ...

as many eyes as possible. I have to read, walk away & digest, then read more - rinse & repeat! And this is only Part One? Christ, how deep does the rot go? How many tentacles does this cancer have? How the hell do you cut out this kind of sickness without killing the friggin' patient?
I'm simply, completely stunned ... seeing it laid out like this. I need to hear the take that DU'ers have on this. Chop it into smaller, more easily digested bites. Tell me it's not as bad as it looks.

Never mind, that's cowardice. I know it is as bad as it looks.

[seaclyr]

6. Long, really long, hard to know what to make of some of it....

I skimmed part 1 of part 1.... I'm guessing it's not too far from the truth but Madsen throws in so much stuff often so poorly linked together that the end result isn't as convincing as it perhaps could or should be. I'll wade back into it again later but I really wish he would write in a more coherent and convincing fashion!

[Quakerfriend]

8. Yes, I agree

It would be hard to give this to someone, if you wanted to make them aware of what has been going on.

I believe that what Madsen says is totally true. But, he knows so much to such great depth! It can be quite confusing.

I keep asking myself why isn't someone in the gov't willing to really step up fight this evil!

I suppose it comes back to the people, WE THE PEOPLE must get out in the streets. The media must be forced to TELL THE TRUTH!

[yodermon]

11. Madsen is great, but..

He really needs an editor. Every one of his articles just sort of casually throws in a vast array of conspiracy links. While I'm sure he's sourced this stuff, it has sort of a numbing effect when you read it..He tries to build a story, but it gets bogged down with all these tangential links, and I find myself thinking "am i supposed to remember this? is it key to his main thesis?". Very hard to skim.

Having said that, I fully believe that the story does go as deep as he reports, and it's really just his writing style that bugs me, not the content.

[NationalEnquirer]

12. Yeah, a bit tough to read.

It needs to be tightened up.
It is obvious the author knows his shit, just needs to trim it, thats all.

[Zan_of_Texas]

24. Agreed. He desperately needs an editor.

I said this when he came out with his $29 million check article.

I will say, having read only a portion so far, that he gets the attempted coup against FDR absolutely right. I researched that up one side and down the other (1934 coup attempt by DuPont and others to take down FDR), and Madsen got that part right.

If he has gotten the rest as right, then he has done well.

[LisaM]

28. Definitely - he refers to Cotton Mather and Salem witch burnings

none of them were burned; they were hanged. It may seem like a minor point, but it just goes to show, he's not checking things.

[nonny]

7. Easier to read here:

Divided into 3 parts and much easier to read font and format.

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=98&contentid=1882

[pbartch]

37. Bush Vote Fraud Investigation Update by WAYNE MADSEN

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=31&contentid=1753

Here is an update of where the investigation is heading. Many strings must be tied together but a clearer picture of how this Election Fraud 04 was done is beginning to emerge. The "follow the money trail" is leading to some interesting places.

Kay Stephenson, CEO of Datamaxx (she looks like her, but it's not Laura Bush) She is close to both Jeb Bush and Colin Powell. Powell has visited her a number of times in Tallahassee.

Before Datamaxx was formed, its contracts were about to go to Seisint, a Tampa company allegedly tied to mob money. It operates Accurint,and was recently bought out by Lexis.

Interesting note is that Datamaxx uses Accurint for its database.

Datamaxx has made a killing in law enforcement/homeland security contracts after 911.

Now people will wonder what this has to do with the election fraud. Here it is in a nutshell. These people, along with ChoicePoint of Dallas, TX, are personal data miners. And Datamaxx is tied to Ohio law enforcement data bases and communications.

[Verve]

52. Interesting info. However, I can't see Colin Powell helping * out with

election fraud. He couldn't stand his boss!!

[garybeck]

9. be careful with Madsen

he has a track record of muddying the water by putting out stories that are based on fact but include false information. The affect is it discredits the entire issue/story.

in many of his past stories, he references his connections to a secret informant, but on more than one occasion, this informant has turned be providing false information.

Break For News even suggests that Madsen is a good writer to read if you want to know what Karl Rove wants you to be thinking about.

I'm not saying he's bs necessarily. I'm just saying be careful.

[BamaBecky]

10. Why don't you read it and tell us what might be suspect? n/t

:shrug:

[garybeck]

21. I haven't read it yet

and to tell you the truth, I have about a dozen articles that I need to read before this.

I will say, look for anything in the article that talks about a government informant, and be very skeptical of anything that is revealed by the government informant. That's where he got that bogus $ 50 bizillion check from.

gary

[johnaries]

13. Whatever happened to his Stolen Election Payoff story? the last I

heard was that he had a copy of a check that turned out to be a fake, but he said he had other proof. I never heard anything else on that story.

[KingoftheJungle]

14. Read here...

As I recall, Madsen had several updates on the election rigging piece which can be found here
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=3...
and here
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=3...

[kypper]

35. Rove?

Rove wouldn't want Bush and the Evangelical right exposed.

[Griffy]

73. yea.. and careful of Dan Rather... discredited truth is what they need!

Rathers story was mostly correct, as Madsen is mostly correct. Perhaps some dots are connected without proof, but there is so much solid evidence that I think that I am careful with ALL "information". Lets continue open conversations.. cause it helps us keep questioning!

[KingoftheJungle]

15. MY DISCLAIMER

Everyone here should know that I was invited into a group devoted to researching the background angle of the election fraud case several months ago (before Madsen's first article), and in that time we have basically dug up the exact same information Madsen writes about in this article. We weren't expecting it to go there, it just did because that where all the links are. If you look at Madsen's early articles, notice how he wasn't expecting it to go there either. We worked with him a little on it to show him what we found and now we have a consensus of what is really going on. I have hard evidence; documents, articles, sec filings, etc. that prove many aspects of what is said in this article (although more focused on the election companies themselves). It is not bullshit, this is very real. I know how hard it is to digest all of this in one go, but imagine how hard it was for me several months ago when I didn't even have a comprehensive article to cover it all, all I had was a hodge podge of documents and articles to draw the links together. This is got to be the biggest scandal in the history of the United States and it covers so much ground its hard to make sense out of it all at first. In the end just know that the mess you thought we were in is, in fact, a whole lot worse.

[Helga Scow Stern]

17. I have no doubt about the extent and seriousness of the

movement to take over the country and the world.

[joevoter]

19. What is the name of the group you were working with that

came to these same conclusions. If you provide a few screen names we can look through the archives and better evaluate the correlations.

[KingoftheJungle]

20. We aren't public

We started just as people emailing each other back and forth, now we have a closed yahoo group and yesterday we decided that it is about time we started publishing our findings, which once we do decide to publish anything it will appear on a blog created by Jamboi. If you have specific questions I'll do my best to answer them, but keep it confined to email. You can PM me for my email.

[hootinholler]

22. When you publish...

Please provide timelines, I've found them useful in visualizing this thing.

From what I've found over the last 3 months, it basically resonates with the jist of Masden's article. Now as for details, I'm not there yet.

PM me if you want help.

-Hoot

[joevoter]

25. Beware of disinformation - check your sources

This is not an endorsement of BBV but it is a very interesting thread -See this link:

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/74/2422.html?1107523936

Don't want to end up like Jeff Fisher.

[nashville_brook]

64. i used to run an alternative paper in east tenn and

ran across a story that was just TOO freaking weird -- i didn't know what to do with it.

back in 1992-3 one of my writers came in with a tale of city fathers who were involved the prayer breakfast thing also being involved in a whole slew of other nastiness including election rigging and (of all things) sexual molestation of children. i knew his sources and trusted them, but never had enough to go to press with. in our town, the weirdness was connected to the methodist church which i thought was the weirdest part b/c i've always viewed methodists as milquetoast.

anywho, the basic idea was a group of city fathers had taken the prayer breakfast thing to it's ultimate extreme and had formed a cabal that was so tightly knit they were often living together. grown, family men. the story went that they chose daughters of the men in the group to bring in for seuxal "initiation."

i've never even mentioned this to anyone in conversation, it sounds so weird, and dangerous.

after reading this story -- parts of which i'm very familiar with from Harper's -- i'm less surprised by the old newspaper story. i think it could be explained by the combination of two easy-to-understand phenomena -- the aquisition of political power via the church -- coupled with the phenomena of sexual abuse that tends to happen in church settings.

i have a list of details that i keep to myself -- like UFO researchers. real odd-ball stuff. i'm waiting to run across others with similar details. but, ha -- i've never even talked about this, so i've never had the opportunity to compare notes. this dominion thing has brought it all back.

[greenmutha]

76. Stuff like this?

http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Bruce_Walton_The_Underground_Nazi_Invasion_15.html

Or maybe this?

http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Branton_The_Dulce_Files_Chapter33_Phil_Schneider_Vs_The_New_World_Order.html

(Make sure your :tinfoilhat: is firmly in place!)

[Helga Scow Stern]

16. Yes, it is thick alright.

Why does he throw out unsubstantiated statements like "psychologically abusive Alcoholics Anonymous"? If he knows something about that, he should document it before he says it--as it is it just pokes a big hole in his credibility.

I am sure that there is truth to much of what he is saying, but it might be off just enough to make it not believeable.

[KingoftheJungle]

18. The AA comment is long documented and...

anyone who has ever been forced to attend these or similar meetings (NA in my case) will tell you the obvious cult behavior of the participants and the way they conduct these meetings. AA becomes a secondary addiction to drugs for most of these people, usually attending meetings several times a week for decades at a time. They also assert the existance of a "higher power" that they basically pray to for help and guidance through their "disease" of addicition. Don't believe me? Check out your local AA or NA meetings at a nearby church every week for a month and tell me these people aren't cultists.

[Blue_In_AK]

26. I agree with you on AA

I distrust any organization whose number 1 (I think) tenet is "I am powerless."

[rumpel]

46. Thanks for posting. I am only halfway through, I need a brain break...

[Laurab]

49. I disagree - AA is far from a "cult" It is a support group

and from what I read of Madsen's article, he was targeting one specific meeting of AA - tied to a specific group- a "Buchanan Group" I believe. I could be wrong, it was a long article, and I skimmed through parts.

However, as one of the many whose life has been saved, thanks to Alcoholics Anonymous, I take offense with anyone calling it a cult. They do not tell you who or what your "higher power" should be, they don't try to force anything on anyone. Yes, the 1st step is "admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanageable". Anyone who has survived alcoholism knows they were indeed powerless.

I haven't attended meetings in a while due to illness, but there was never anything at all cultlike about the meetings I attended. Athiests can get along just fine in AA, so can Agnostics, so can Christians. I attended meetings for about 16 years, and it was a SUPPORT group, not a cult. Disagreements were welcomed and discussed, you were not shunned if you didn't agree.

I have heard NA can be a little cultlike, also I understand that people who are "forced to attend" may find it cultlike because they don't want to be there in the first place. However, if you're there to save your life, it's a damn good place to be, and it worked quite well for me and for a lot of people I know. Alcoholics, by their very nature, would be the first to run from something that was "cultlike". They don't like to be told what to do. However, they may choose to do some things that have been proven to work in treating the disease of alcoholism.

Matter of fact, if GWBushit had gone to AA, the world might not be in the mess it is now, since he wouldn't be what's referred to as a "dry drunk". I believe a few books have labeled him as such, and I don't disagree. You may want to read up on dry drunks sometime.

[GettysbergII]

50. As far as I know

the AA 12 step program is considered the most successful treatment for alcohalism. Wish my late father would have made it through it. It would be nice if there was an easier way to get that monkey off your back but as far as I know there ain't.

[Raksha]

56. I agree with you about AA and was disappointed with the "cult" label.

I've known a number of people who credit AA with saving their lives, and they are NOT fundamentalists or koolaid drinkers in any way. I've been to 12-step meetings in the past (Emotions Anonymous) and I can attest that an individual's "Higher Power" can be conceptualized in any way they desire, even as "Nature" or "the Group." There doesn't have to be any supernatural content, and certainly not a Christian one.

I skimmed most of the Madsen piece when it was first posted yesterday, and I agree with those who say he could use a good editor. As it stands now, it reads too much like a right-wing conspiracy piece, and I believe the reason is the gratuitous potshots like the remark about AA. He seems a little bit overzealous to demonize every single thing with even a tenuous connection to "the Family." That's unfortunate because I imagine that about 90% of his allegations ARE true, but the 10% that is questionable (maybe not even untrue but just not thoroughly documented) would give the opposition an excuse to write off the whole thesis. I mean...look what happened to Dan Rather!

[emcguffie]

68. AA, depends on the group you're in, I've heard n/a/

[hootinholler]

23. Maybe that's why he's still alive? N/T

-Hoot

[luaptifer]

27. re disinfo, you might want to back up a notch and consider this

series of threads:

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/74/122.html

[KingoftheJungle]

29. How about instead of focusing on BS character assassinations...

you debunk our arguments on the merits of the arguments themselves? There are some slight issues Madsen brought up in this article that are inaccurate, but the overall picture stays the same and the source material can easily be referenced in Google.

[luaptifer]

30. point re possible disinfo was not regarding madsen's work ;-)

and, btw, character assassination? seeking validation of claims where you paint broad pictures of conspiracy via speculation and other means?

that's what you call character assassination?

all i want is valid claims.

[AntiFascist]

31. Re disinformation....

It looks like BozosforBush is back to his old delusions, regarding the OpusHunt group in a Jan. 18th post to BBV:

It is my belief that this group is not just a bunch of kids. I believe, but cannot prove, that they are getting paid. They obviously know how to hack sites. They operate 24/7 at times, day after day. Could be Moonies. Could be LaRouchies, although LaRouch is very anti-Bush these days. It could even be the people who were behind the Jordan Sage hoax that swept the internet back in the late 90s. Could be GOPers.

For one thing, I am not getting paid, I do not belong to any of these groups and I do not hack sites. I cannot speak directly for KOT or SO, but several of the contributors to the group have very good investigative skills, particularly with concern to Bush I era drug dealing, etc, which was one area of focus. I would be very surprised if they are GOP operatives.

[luaptifer]

36. hi AF, re disinfo...

in our last quite civil discussion (thanks again!), i don't remember exactly how you characterized where you stand with respect to these guys.

but it seemed it was close enough that i felt i could suggest that if you'd exert enough pressure on them to do their own validation, that the several of us who fact-checked that particular KOTJ wouldn't feel the need to do independent fact-checking.

i'm sure you remember the problem, however many of 'em there are, some of 'em aren't doing the homework that makes sure it's not BS they're spreading. and apparently the rest of them who claim that work as their own don't give enough of a caca to do it either.

so, the 'official document' goes out, gets called on its lack of veracity, and the entire group -- rightfully -- is painted as disinformers because it's been three months now that the various 'associates' of the SO/KOTJ group include

1. none of whom will publicly answer to outsiders' challenges of their invalid claims
   
2. none of whom will correct those claims in public despite continuing to make updates public
   
3. none of whom will ensure the updates are corrected in private
   
4. and none of whom will publicly bail from, or denounce, the group for spreading what can only be understood as at best speculation, at worst, deliberate lies
   

this has happened OVER and OVER and OVER again with absolutely none of these things i itemized being changed.

as a result, it can be considered nothing other than a disinformation campaign.

and that explains exactly why Bozos hammered on Jamboi who has fairly recently signed up with some of these: for THREE months they've continued to spread this stuff publicly and for the same THREE months they've continued to refuse to correct the BS in public.

Bozos was entirely correct to question Jamboi's motives to join up with those who've disinformed for a quarter of a year. i don't understand how those with good investigative skills would be willing to be associated with those proven to have no skills since, as a group, they are unwilling to ensure the validity of the disinformation they disseminate?!

as for whether you belonged to opushunt, i don't recall. i do know a few of the others and have been impressed with the work of a couple of them. but opushunt went extinct after the SOap Opera.

[AntiFascist]

40. Hi Luaptifer....

Yes, I continue to be a member of the group, which no longer goes by the name OpusHunt, by the way.

Neither Jamboi, KOTJ or SO (nor I for that matter) have been the primary contributors to the group as of late. Except for the linkages between the various Triads, Accenture, Cybernet, Khashoggi, etc, I am unaware of any other "disinformation campaign" you are referring to. There has been a LOT of information submitted which has not been reported publicly, and I have yet to find the time myself to sift through and understand most of it. I know much of it has been forwarded to the official Ohio election investigators, who may also be interested in keeping much of this private for the time being.

I think the title of Madsen's article hits the nail on the head: "Christian Mafia," and it's not just referring to the traditionally Catholic-based mafia. The purpose of the group is to expose this corruption, particularly with respect to election fraud. If any religious people are offended by this investigation then they should understand that their respective religions would be much better off without the corruption.

[luaptifer]

42. AntiFascist, thank you for pointing to the problem

from the very earliest start of the disinfo campaign, they've tried to expand the anything prefixed by 'cyber' is involved in the conspiracy and so any company associated with a 'cyber' company is also part of the conspiracy to create an absolutely baseless worldwide scam cause they NEVER could provide a valid link from cybernet group to companies other than fall under the cybernet holdings group.

but for THREE freaking months, they've been hammering this and the thread i mentioned on which you and i had our civil discussion, it was because KOTJ was expanding the scam even farther!

THANK YOU!!

Except for the linkages between the various Triads, Accenture, Cybernet, Khashoggi, etc, I am unaware of any other "disinformation campaign" you are referring to.

and, once again, i've seen no valid linkage of the disinfogang to madsen so i do NOT equate their 'work' with his.

[AntiFascist]

44. ok, thanks...

I'll try to look into this specifically, with what time I have. Sorry, my previous post was posted simultaneously with yours above.

[AntiFascist]

43. Luaptifer, if you would be so kind....

I don't have the time to read through all the BBV threads...I'm sure they are full of drama, but could you please give me the short list, summary with links of these various disinformation campaigns you are concerned about? I'm not concerned about Jamboi, so please don't include him.

Are you talking about Triad GSI? Khashoggi money laundering a la Oliver North? Please elaborate.

[Quakerfriend]

32. Thx King of the Jungle for everything you are doing

Have you all been in touch with anyone who can help to truly bring these liars to justice?

I hope that you and Madsen and all the other true patriots with you are safe! Our prayers go with you!

[KingoftheJungle]

33. No, but getting in touch with these people is now the prime area of focus

Can't do much about this information if nobody of some power is even listening. Step one is getting this information as far and wide as possible. Also, Madsen makes some errors in his article, people need to find them and correct them so our case is stronger. Next is getting people like Conyers, Arnebeck, Cobb, and other organizations involved. This is the tough one and without any support from the community we're not going to get anywhere.

[Quakerfriend]

34. Hey KoJ

:hi:

I'm very encouraged by the way the German gov't is 'treating' Rumsfeld and Gonzalez, now.

I'm wondering if you think, given the current world sentiments re: this administration, that the international community can help in any way.

[KingoftheJungle]

39. I definately feel that foreign governments are the key...

but I have no idea how we are going to get any foreign journalists to cover this if they wouldn't even cover the election irregularities. I'm not familiar with any foreign press or government contacts, so if anyone here has any ideas on how to spread this worldwide please let me know.

ALso keep in mind that many foreign governments are shills for this fellowship, such is the state of the current Netherlands PM and many African nations. This is going to be one tough egg to crack.

[SmileMaker]

38. It would be good to take some indisputable facts from this piece

and to make a flyer (or an article that doesn't look like it's from Conspiracy World) I thought of an idea for an image - people with sheepheads praising Bush from the edge of a cliff. Just some thoughts. I'm not very artistic nor good with coming up with catchy marketing slogans. !

Any of you talented DUers ready to roll? I think that breaking through the cultic programming is our biggest battle.

[KingoftheJungle]

41. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK I'M HERE TO SPREAD DISINFO...

Let's get something strait, I'm not an investigative journalist. I get information, I fact check it as much as I can, and I try to fill in any gaps or additional pieces to the puzzle that I can find. I am not trained for this nor do I have any previous experience in this line of work, I'm figuring it out as I go along.

For a brief peroid in a week I posted some confidential emails to me that were not supposed to be made public. One reason they weren't to be made public is the fact that they still had holes in them. When this investigation started it was in public view the whole time, and every time a new document was found it dissappeared from the internet days later. If they could see exactly where the holes were they could plug them before we got it, which is probably what happened. For these reasons I decided to contact a DU admin in order to have my posts deleted. We still have more info than I posted, and the investigation didn't stop at that point, it just moved forward.

NEVER ONCE DID I REFUSE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ANY CRITICISM BASED ON ACTUAL CONTENT. In fact, as I seem to recall I actually requested people comment and criticize the things I post in order to help us build a better case. However, most of Bozo's soap opera is a bullshit character assassination game. I don't have time for that shit and I won't be a part of it.

If you see false information in the article, by all means post it up. Several people have already contacted me regarding nitpicky contradictions in this latest article that I am looking into and plan to forward to Madsen. I doubt he'll do anything since the article is already up but at least I'm not blindly disregarding criticism. Shit you can contact Madsen yourself, his email is easy enough to find.

Now if you will be so kind, cut the bullshit and do something constructive with this instead of bitching about how we're all a bunch of disinfo agents attempting to sabatoge the effort. If you find something in error, post it up. If you find something to support it, post it up. If you think this needs more attention from activists, journalists, and government people, then start blasting it left and right and stop waiting for someone else to do it for you. If you think this thread should be buried, then do nothing and stop bumping it to the top for everyone to see.

[luaptifer]

45. KOTJ, do one simple thing:

go back to the very start of the problem:

establish a valid link with quotes and substantiating documentation between CyberNet Group (and the companies proven to be associated with CNG by way of their own documenting links and quotes) and the next company in the conspiracy chain that you guys have claimed exists for THREE months, but never validated

do that here, in public, or be willing to claim here, in public, that it doesn't exist.

if it doesn't exist, then all of the conspiratorial links you guys claim exist outside of that CNG cluster vaporize. if it does exist, post that new information here and be willing to back it up.

this has NEVER happened, you guys being willing to publicly defend or invalidate the claimed links.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

47. Thank you, luaptifer. n/t

[luaptifer]

48. W_I_T, you're welcome :-) n/t

[Verve]

51. Not again! I'm having a deja vu moment.

Didn't we all discuss this several months ago?

[Ellipsis]

54. yes, I thought so too

just with more bold type...

thanks for your efforts King of the Jungle.




just another stubbled crackpot

[luaptifer]

55. KOTJ, i mean this seriously

i've said it to you and all of the other manifestations i've contested publicly:

• on this forum,
  
• on CGCS,
  
• on daily kos,
  
• on bbv.
  

i am very willing to concede when i am WRONG. i'll do it publicly, i'll do it right HERE! i learned about ego bullshit a long time ago. if anything, i'm probably too humble, but no matter what, besting you or any of the others in a pissing contest is not my goal.

my concern here is for two reasons:

first, your gang has for THREE MONTHS, tried to tie themselves

• to greg palast,
  
• to jeff fisher,
  
• and most tenaciously to wayne madsen
  

and perhaps to others i don't recall off the top of my head.

funny thing is, if they were getting good info from the gang -- at least palast and madsen -- i'm sure as our good guys, they'd acknowledge the help of others, even anonymously. but, of course, fisher's reputation got whacked, in part, by the interference of parties who have been implicated as collaborating with some of your associates.

THAT'S my first concern: that you guys have been slowly rolling the trojan horse up to the gates and then built an intergalactic conspiracy on top of it. the bottom of this massive pyramid rests upon the foundation built for a house of cards. like rather's memogate, no matter if the material you presented in my last KOTJ debunkle actually had HAD anything that tied it together on its own, that single link that's still missing between CNG and the rest of the 'cyber' galaxy would be the single forged memo that erased AWOL from bu$h's bad report card. and that missing CNG-->galaxy link has been missing for THREE MONTHS.

madsen's work is based, i'd be certain, upon stuff he's sure to have validated by himself. probably he developed it by himself. but the fact that THREE MONTHS later you are still here claiming to be working with him, you are still claiming involvement in anything he does, and you are THREE MONTHS later still claiming the validity of that nonexistent link well, gee. it paints a vivid picture for those who'd like to whack something madsen might develop, don't you think? he may have months of an AWOL story carefully constructed but the roverCON MSM-clones would only be focussing on the CNG idiots.

second, so many have wasted so much time and effort based upon bullshit. that you don't care enough for the effort of those who suppose they are your allies, alone, would suggest 'moral values' comparable to those of our least favorite CONs.

so just DO IT! if you are sincere, stand up and publicly defend your claims to the reality-based community (hint, requires more than faith, smoke, or mirrors) or take your lumps honestly and apologize for misreading 'evidence' and misleading others for a good chunk of a year.

call me whatever names you like. hell, 'samisdatadude' would be funny again. but prove or disprove your chain of logic, here in public.

g'nite!

[KingoftheJungle]

57. Here's my initial response

"first, your gang has for THREE MONTHS, tried to tie themselves


* to greg palast,
* to jeff fisher,
* and most tenaciously to wayne madsen



and perhaps to others i don't recall off the top of my head.

funny thing is, if they were getting good info from the gang -- at least palast and madsen -- i'm sure as our good guys, they'd acknowledge the help of others, even anonymously."

First of all, I never claimed to work for any of these people. People in the group claimed to work with Madsen (people like Jamboi) and I bought it as soon as Madsen's updates started coinciding with what we were simultaneously turning up AT THE SAME TIME. You will also notice that he gives credit in the very first sentence of the damn article. Furthermore, many of the claims he makes were documented by us. You don't see him providing copies of webpages and documents suporting his claims, do you? A lot of his source material has been in our possession for over a month now. Why isn't this information blasted everywhere and kept relatively secret? None of it started that way, all of it originally came from the Internet before a portion of it was deleted. Rest assured it WILL be made public soon, but when it is damn ready. Madsen did a lot of work for us by writing this article, as none of us had the self-discipline to sit down and compile this mountain of data into a singular, tangible source.

Furthermore, you keep coming back to Cybernet. If you actually read the article, Cybernet wasn't even mentioned. We haven't been discussing Cybernet anymore, its old news. Cybernet was useful because through that we were able to identify its lead programmer, Alan Gutierrez. Alan owned a website engrm.com, which when looked up at the WHOIS registry was likely funded by the Deutsche Bank. It should be noted that later, once we started looking into the Adan Kashoggi links to Triad GSI and Triad Management, he was using the Deutsche Bank as his source. Anyway, Alan was working on XML database manipulation software, which caught our eye. Its not even that important, what is important is the Gutierrez family. Martin Gutierrez is the Hispanic Apostolate Archdiocese of New Orleans Covenet house, an arm of Opus Dei. I can provide pages of documentation on Covenant house but I'm not going to waste everyone's time with it. Armando Gutierrez, from Alan's Guitterez family is head of republican
florida board and has computer science doctorate

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/29/60400.shtml

Armando Gutierrez Jr, founded the University of Miami College
Republicans in Spring 2002. A Computer Science and Political Science
Student, Gutierrez created the infastructure necessary to create a 250
member organization in just one semester.

Gutierrez, then when onto become Co-Chairman of the Florida College
Republicans. Which governs just over 26 College Republican Chapters in
the State of Florida. With his Co-Chair (Bryan Stewart), FL Cr's
overall membership in the state increased 30% in just one year.
Overall involvment was at an all time high for the State of Florida's
College Republicans.

Armando Gutierrez Jr, Graduated in Spring 2003 from the University of
Miami with a Bachelor of Arts with focus in English and Political
Science, and still remains active in College Republican school and
national activities. He is currently working on his Master's in Public
Administration, and plans on attending law school.

http://www.flcr.org/armandogutierrezjr.html

Then we get to Carlos Gutierrez, who happens to be the CEO of Kellogs (which, if I recall, is located in the same building as Halliburton) and Bush's secretary of Commerce.

The real meat of this line of investigation has jack shit to do with Cybernet, they are a pawn in the matter. The real meat comes from Saudi connections, the Council of National Policy/Opus Dei/KNights of malta/etc, (they have many names for the same basic group of people), and the Intelligence community, Oil companies, and prominent politicians that tend to lean Republican (bushco, Blackwell, Dewine, Voinovich, Feeney, etc). It is these connections that bind the players together, and it is well documented by Madsen. And the source documents that support Madsen's claims WILL be released when we think it is fucking time, so deal with it. If you are that anxious then do a damn google search, many of them are still out there.

[luaptifer]

63. KOTJ, my initial counter

posts from the following thread of a couple of weeks ago stand as the example of your attempt to start an association with Andy_Stephenson, yet another of our good guys! so, add another onto the list of people whose efforts may be discreditable by association with your gang.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#top

so you never claimed to work for these guys, BFD! the fact that you've leeched onto them for THREE MONTHS and claimed the association is what disinforms people here. some of us may forget that the 'truth' now perceived was based upon the repeated lie but not all of us.

don't count on bu$h's smarts "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."

now you are saying that the fact that you laid out a massive amount of disinfo over the last THREE MONTHS regarding CNG and most recently a couple of weeks ago is dismissed by your current posts?

Finally to top off the finale, Cybernet, Accenture, and Triad all cut a complete contract with several states on behalf of web integrate database development for everything, including education and elections.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281002

so in mid-January, not only was cybernet mentioned, it was the topper of a finale! and remember, it was the cybernet connection that brought Accenture into the fog.

the fact that for THREE MONTHS the bogus CNG info hung out there as the foundation for you to leech onto these folks should now be forgotten by the rest of us because you no longer need it to sustain the association? oh yeah, i'd forgotten that the gang now has a new connection missing a validated basis, that of the "Triads" and the "Rapps". a masterful shift! you guys know the techniques!

after THREE MONTHS, of course everyone forgets the false basis for your initial attachment to these guys.

you want Triad info?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281002

More...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281007

Theres more, but that's about good for now. Please dont spread this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281015

i love the implication of this last post:

hey you 65,000 DUers, don't tell anyone
Lets just keep it between ourselves, I wasn't supposed to release this. Play around with namebase.org and google and see what else you can find.

in response to those posts, several of us provided invalidation:

TorchesandPitchforks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281146

Alizaryn
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#281258

and myself in most detail and for several of your links
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=279753#283729

but i see one of the most important effects in that new series was to make the shift to Triad as the fuzzy link. and it's from there, you get to run wild.

and still, here, you've not supported or invalidated the very first disinfo that allowed you to establish to DUers THREE MONTHS of association between your gang and palast, fisher, madsen, and now andy_stephenson.

don't forget, it's the exception to the rule that helps to define the rule:
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."

i take it that you are not going to prove your sincerity here and defend or invalidate the cybernet connection?

[luaptifer]

65. Why the Repeated Lie Works

Memory and related learning principles

reinforce disinfo thru repetition for THREE MONTHS

Getting it right the first time. We have learned that all remembering depends on forming an original, clear neural trace in the brain in the first place. These initial impressions are vitally important because the mind clings just as tenaciously to incorrect impressions as it does to correct impressions. Then we have to unlearn and relearn. Incorrect information is so widespread that Mark Twain once wrote, "Education consists mainly in what we have unlearned."

The Principle of Recitation

There is no principle that is more important or more effective than recitation for transferring material from the short-term memory to the long-term memory. For one thing, you are obviously in the process of repeating the information. Recitation can take several forms -- thinking about it, writing it out, or saying it out loud.

How recitation works. Recitation transfers material to the secondary or long-term memory. While you are reading the words in a sentence or paragraph, the primary memory (short-term memory) holds them in mind long enough for you to gain the sense of the sentence or paragraph. However, the primary memory has a very limited capacity, and as you continue to read, you displace the words and ideas of the initial paragraphs with the words of subsequent paragraphs.

percent of information recalled after 7 and 63 days of first exposure with/without repetition

# days | no rep | with rep
-
7 | 33% | 83%
-
63 | 14% | 70%

bottomline: repetition of the association hetween the gang and palast, fisher, madsen (now andy?!) has established in the minds of some DUers, that the gang has validity

[luaptifer]

77. disinformation causes wars

reproduced from elsewhere for consideration in context here

...meanwhile, it's firmly entrenched in minds of many that cybernet is
the basis for this grander conspiracy cause these guys never
addressed the issues nor disclaimed the validity of the cybernet scam each time it was raised across those THREE MONTHS.

a couple of items, therefore:

first, tell me they've not been meeting the definition of "DISINFORMERS"

---
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Disinformation

Disinformation is deliberately misleading information announced
publicly or leaked by a government, intelligence agency, corporation
or other entity for the purpose of influencing opinions or
perceptions.

Unlike misinformation, which is also a form of wrong information,
disinformation is produced by people who intend to deceive their
audience.

A group might plant disinformation in reports, in press releases, in
public statements or in practically any other routine, occasional or
unusual communique. Disinformation can also be leaked, or covertly
released to a source who can be trusted to repeat the false
information.

A common disinformation tactic is to mix truth, half-truths, and
lies. Disinformants sometimes seek to gain the confidence of their
audience through emotional appeals or by using semi-neutral language
interlaced with threads of disinformation.

"Disinformation is a fact of life in politics. Those who practice
politics for a living call it "spin." Honest people call it lying
through your teeth." Says Doug Thompson <1>

(http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4623.shtml)

-------------
and this is a product of DISINFORMATION: how many frigging times did darth cheney repeat the lie and others feed it?

Media Matters? Poll Shows More than 4 in 10 Still Link Saddam to 9/11

By E&P Staff

Published: October 05, 2004 4:10 PM EDT

NEW YORK While the press gave extensive coverage Tuesday to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s statement that he hasn't seen "any strong, hard evidence" to link Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who staged the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, it became ever more apparent that the media still have their work cut out for them on this issue.

Rumsfeld's comments came as a new USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll found that 42% of those surveyed thought the former Iraqi leader was involved in the attacks on New York City and Washington.

In response to another question, 32% said they thought Saddam had personally planned them.

The same poll in June showed that 56% of all Republicans said they thought Saddam was involved with the 9/11 attacks. In the latest poll that number actually climbs, to 62%.

The independent commission that investigated 9/11 concluded in June that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States." The panel also said "contacts" between al-Qaeda and Iraq "do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000653667

[harmonyguy]

66. Some credible sources, please!

In your post above, you assert the following:
Cybernet was useful because through that we were able to identify its lead programmer, Alan Gutierrez.
Without getting into the whole 'which Cybernet' issue, please provide some support for the claim that Mr. Alan Gutierrez was its lead programmer.

...engrm.com, which when looked up at the WHOIS registry was likely funded by the Deutsche Bank.
What information from a WHOIS lookup supports this supposition?

...what is important is the Gutierrez family.
Armando Gutierrez, from Alan's Guitterez family...
What information supports the stated connection between Armando and Alan's family?

What information supports the implied connection between Carlos and Alan's family?

Granted, all of these people share the same last name, but to date, I don't recall seeing anything that would support the conclusion that they are in fact from the same family.

A few verifiable facts would go a long way to establishing some credibility.
HG

[emcguffie]

67. If you're in touch with Madsen --

He really does need an editor. He could go through and take out judgments --like the AA thing -- and adjectives, which journalists tend not to use, or to limit as much as possible.

There are lots of places where he doesn't begin to source information, and that's important as well.

At least I think. MEGO, my eyes glaze over reading this stuff. But there were a couple of places where it struck me that an editor would just zap that right out, and it would be much better and tighter, and also less objectionable, no, I mean less vulnerable to serious criticism and fault-finding and error finding.

Straight reportage, without the judgments. Although straight reportage with all those little connections might be horrible as well.

I'm afraid I'm not being clear, and maybe not very accurate, but an editor would be the answer.

[KingoftheJungle]

74. I'm not in personal contact, but here's his email:

[e-mail]

He does need an editor in a bad way, so if you spot anything that needs attention let him know.

[ottozen]

70. Nostradamus Century VIII Quatrain 20

The false message by a fraudulent
election
Shall be stopped from going about
the town.
Voices shall be bought, and a
chapel tinted with blood,
By another who contests the rule.

Henry C. Roberts, translator

The Quatrain is cryptic, as they all are, but it does seem to fit the parameters of the contest of the 2004 election coupled with Madsen's article regarding the Fellowship Foundation ("chapel"). It also references the purchase of the media.

This was written in the sixteenth century, when elections were not the norm.

[Verve]

72. Very interesting! Kind of freaky if it's legit. Do you have a link? n/t

[ottozen]

75. It's as legitimate as I guess it can be

I just typed it in out of the actual translation which is published by Crown Publishers. I know that some translations differ from each other, but the original french is the same. This is the book I bought back in the 1990's.

[emcguffie]

84. what do you think this means?

That we will expose the fraudulent election?

[ottozen]

85. I like to think that the false message

will be stopped by another that contests the rule. I like to think that it was prophesied as a critical juncture of history wherein the fulfillment of a prophecy leads to the end of rule of the vicious clique of murderous thugs that for too long have been squeezing legitimate, caring Americans from the opportunity to serve this country in a meaningful way.

I would also like to point out that the Washington Redskins did not lose the game to the Green Bay Packers until after they had scored the winning touchdown. The penalty against the Redskins, false start.

Furthermore, if Bush is the Mabus anti-Christ prophesied in the Nostradamus quatrains, then according to Century II Quatrain 62:

Mabus shall come, and soon after
shall die,
Of people and beasts shall be a
horrible destruction,
Then on a sudden the vengeance
shall be seen,
Blood, hand, thirst, famine, when
the comet shall run.


I like to hope that even the worst perps of abominable actions are redeemable. However, I prefer to believe that they must undertake to stop dodging their own karma, whether by attempting to pawn it off on Jesus, or in other more nefarious ways. However, since the right wing religious wing of the republican party is so committed to the fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps this means that both osaMA and BUSh and their various power structures will soon die. The Bible said that the anti-Christ's wrath would be great, for he knows he hath but a short time.

I like to think that there are enough light-bearers on this planet to transmute most of the worst effects of the various dooms-day prophecies which have been set forth to warn mankind that there is a heavy price to pay for destructive behavior.

Nevertheless, if Bush was to come to power as MABUS, then the 2000 election acted like a prophetical fulfillment that would not quit. In the grand scheme of things, 8 years or any subset of 8 years is a short time.

The bumper sticker on my dilapidated old truck for approximately 10 years now:

The New Democratic World Order,
Will it include the Bill of Rights?

[Alizaryn]

53. I understand why it's so hard to digest all at once.

Just following the notes I've taken through my own reseach which pretty much follows along the path that Madsen took is difficult. There is SO much information out there and SO many people that touch SO many corporations/pieces of the government/organizations, its overwhelming and difficult not to over state when telling the story to others because there are so many links. A spider web of evil.

[KingoftheJungle]

58. Some other fun links

Madcow has some great stuff...
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:pM02O1F6ihYJ:www.madcowprod.com/11242004.html+%22Adnan+Khashoggi%22+%2B+2004+election&hl=en

http://www.madcowprod.com/
Check out the video too.

Someone in GDP mentioned to look over the footnotes of the Yurica Report. It was an excellent suggestion, I suggest everyone check it out here:
http://www.yuricareport.com/

[Rocky Top]

60. everyone check this out!!!

Even as the Bush administration denounces and battles Islamic religious zealotry abroad, fundamental Christian zealotry is taking hold here at home.

http://www.alternet.org/story/18259

[seaclyr]

59. In my opinion, Madsen lacks a perspective.

He does a good job of following up these connections, the overlap of ideas and the contacts between the various individuals/groups, but these various connections are presented as if they're all equally strong and convincing. In my experience, no group is that organized and cohesive; some links are much stronger than others, there are major and minor players and so on. Without some acknowledgment of that, Madsen's narrative does lapse into what comes across as somewhat paranoid conspiracy theory. So, in my opinion, his presentation doesn't do justice to his research and arguments. It may actually damage his arguments as some people may, unfairly perhaps, dismiss what he has to say altogether.

[KingoftheJungle]

61. I think it just boils down to the fact that he needs an editor. bad

Please understand what a pain in the ass it is to even attempt to write an article covering a conspiracy as large as this one. It took me a few months just to understand it, and that was with the background source material. I was waiting for someone in the group to try and put it all together into one cohesive package for months and nothing ever got done, until Madsen came out withis article. The fact that this all came out in one article is blessing, getting nitpicky about little details here and there is good to build a stronger case but dismissing it alltogether does it a GREAT disservice. If Madsen had an editor I'm sure it wouldn't have come out so jarbled with spelling errors and misquotes. In the end, just be happy it came out at all.

[k8conant]

62. I read this all last night...I wonder...

where this all leads. Maybe "nobody cares" because they already know and don't think they can stop it or don't want to stop it.

[nashville_brook]

69. listen to thom hartmann for insight

he's been on dominionism a whole bunch today.

[loudsue]

71. WOW!! and WOW!! Madsen has blown me away, yet again!

This is a dangerous right wing extremist bunch of kooks, and they all need to be brought down.

Something needs to be done. It is so vast, and so evil, that it is stupefying.

What can we do??

:kick::kick::kick:

[harmonyguy]

79. Still looking for credible sources.....

...perhaps the question got overlooked in the pile of posts above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x319647#320991

[AntiFascist]

80. I don't know about this issue....

but I'm quickly jumping off the burning Madsen bandwagon, he seems to think we're all Republicans! Either his investigative skills leave something to be desired, or else he's working for the DLC.

[Joanne98]

81. OMG thankyou.............

[Zen Democrat]

82. This deserves to be read in its entirety.

There are minor mistakes here and there. Once he says "Nixon was deputy at CREEP" when he obviously means Malek. He goes out on a wire with several statements, and whether he keeps his balance is debatable.

But there's enough in there that any student of history can verify, and links that make lots of sense. The problem I had with the editing is that some people appear on opposite sides simultaneously -- but after studying the Kennedy Assassination that's not hard to believe. Perhaps its just layers of operations all on the same dark side.

Easy to see why Jimmy Carter is an "enemy" of these pseudo-Christians. Reinhold Niebuhr was his hero.

This is a must-read, no doubt about it.

[Karenina]

83. Kick!

:kick:

[bush_is_wacko]

86. That is one LONG litany! Very interesting though.

I would love to forward an edited version on but I think you would have to edit it down to about a third of it's length to get most people to read it all. I think I got about halfway before I got too tired to read more. I'll try to come back tomorrow

[emcguffie]

87. You must finish it. n/t

[harmonyguy]

88. Another day goes by and still no credible evidence......

While Madsen's article may well be very interesting, it would be beneficial to see some evidence to support the claims made by the originator of this thread in post #55.

Perhaps luaptifer was right. For months now, various DUers have tried to encourage these posters to provide evidence to support thier wild statements, but in spite of good-faith-sounding claims of never refusing to take into account criticism based on actual content there certainly appears to be a reluctance to provide anything to substantiate the claims.
While it's certainly possible that these speculative claims may not be active dis-information, the continued repetition of the same claims coupled with the apparent refusal to provide corroboration, only serves to make the claims suspect along with the claimants themselves. Unfortunately in the process, the good names and reputations of any credible writers with whom they rightly or wrongly claim to associate themselves, can also get tarnished in the process. Without any evidence to the contrary, it might be reasonable to speculate that this may well have been the intent from the outset.

Please see this post for some specific questions that beg for factual answers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x319647#320991

HG

[k8conant]

89. Time magazine highlighted Douglas Coe last week

THE STEALTH PERSUADER: Douglas Coe

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050207/photoessay/4...

Many people think Congress is the host of the gala annual National Prayer Breakfast, which takes place this week. It is not. The breakfast is organized by 33 members of Congress who belong to a well-connected but secretive Christian group called the Fellowship Foundation, which is run by Douglas Coe. Coe, 76, has been called the "stealth Billy Graham." He specializes in the spiritual struggles of the powerful.

Several members of Congress live in rooms rented in a town house owned by a foundation affiliated with the group. Coe and his associates sometimes travel (on their own dime) with congressional members abroad and—according to investigations by the Los Angeles Times and Harper's—have played backstage roles in such diplomatic coups as the 1976 Camp David accords. Yet Coe also befriends dictators. "He would still hold out hope that these people could be redeemed and try to work through them to help the people over whom they have authority," says Richard Carver, president of the Fellowship's board of directors. Some skeptical Evangelicals criticize Coe's indiscriminate alliances and his downplaying of Jesus' divinity in favor of his earthly teachings—which allows Coe to pray with Muslim and Buddhist leaders. But few turn down an opportunity to confer with him.