A word of caution re: Fritakis allegations

[Boredtodeath]

I fully expect that I'll get flamed by writing this - it's the DU way - but I'm going to try to inject some common sense into the recent Fritakis "revelations" because we've been down this road at DU before.

This "Diebold central tabulator in Blackwell's office" allegation is just that - an allegation and nothing more.

Fritakis is selling a book. He needs press and buzz to do that.

Fritakis has "whistleblowers" who won't sign sworn statements and won't go public.

Fritakis says Blackwell changed vote totals with a 2 way central tabulators, but what he doesn't address is the following:

1. The paper records have been left behind as evidence that Blackwell did so. He makes no claim about how they plan to cover up the evidence that they changed the totals. Blackwell may be evil, but he's not stupid. He's left evidence of his deception behind if you believe Fritakis.

2. The press release he says backs him up doesn't do anything of the kind. Read it yourself:
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/news/release/02-27-04.htm

3. Fritakis offers no hard evidence of his claims, just "trust me."

For anyone who was here during the Bev Harris debacle, you'll recognize the pattern - lots of allegations with no proof and promises of "great things to come."

We've been here before and I hope we will take those hard earned lessons to heart.

Let's not deluge Conyers with allegations he can't do anything with because we have no proof. All we have today is "he said, she said."

[evermind]

1. It did strike me as strange that he should have made this

allegation back on Jun 11th, and still no print story has emerged. That suggests to me it is not easy to make this one "stand up", because it is a dynamite story, if true.

[Boredtodeath]

2. It's actually a fairly simple investigation process

State funds were used to pay for this system. That means a description of the system is public knowledge. A few well timed open records requests will nail down some definitive data, such as:

Who is the system manufacturer?

What is this system designed to do?

How much taxpayer money was spent to purchase it and under what kind of agreement?

Was the request bid or single sourced?

How does the data flow? Is it one way or two way? How does a Diebold system communicate with a Triad Punch Card system and is it automatic? Who designed the interface?

Is the data in this system "keyed by an operator" or imported from another foreign system?

I'm surprised Fritakis isn't asking any of these questions, and waiting for the answers before he goes public.

[AtLiberty]

3. All that info would have put listeners to sleep...

The nuts and bolts of electronic election fraud are pretty boring unless you're a geek.

He did say that this subcontractor/installer had provided lots of info and this was just one part of it.

[Boredtodeath]

6. Right, "he said/she said"

Thank you for making my point.

And your pathetic excuse about "boring," is stunning. Facts may be "boring," but we still need them to make the case.

Fritakis has none.

[AtLiberty]

9. I'm talking about a radio audience...

You cannot hold a broad radio audience captive going into tedious details about computer programming. Instead you focus on what most listeners can understand and provide resources for closer evaluation... Fitrakis said more info is coming...

Please knock off the "pathetic" verbage...

[Boredtodeath]

10. Deal?

You knock off using allegations as proof and I'll stop calling your efforts pathetic.

OK?

And, having been on the radio discussing "tedious" points of proof, I can tell you the audience is ALWAYS appreciative of facts.

[AtLiberty]

13. I'm repeating what Bob Fitrakis said...

He's a very credible source, btw.

[Boredtodeath]

14. That depends on your definition of credible

And I made my points why I don't beleive Fritakis made any credible points in the original post.

I'll repeat it here for you - allegations are not credible points of proof. And Fritakis has made allegations to further the sales of his book. He has offered no proof.

[Boredtodeath]

17. Which also leads to the question

Why AREN'T you repeating more credible allegations regarding Georgia?

The SoS of Georgia has a two way Diebold communication and tabulators in their office.

KSU in Georgia has 5 two way Diebold communication and tabulators in their office.

6 Diebold GEMS servers (two way communication and tabulators) were stolen in Georgia in 2002 and have never been recovered. Someone has 6 two way Diebold communication and tabulators in their basement.

THOSE ARE FACTS.

[Melissa G]

99. Link to facts please.. thanks,mg n/t

[Boredtodeath]

110. Theft of GEMS computers in Georgia

Here's a copy of the police report: (see the 2nd image)
http://www.countpaperballots.com/whatstolenequipment.htm

[Boredtodeath]

111. Georgia additional purchase 8/26/03

In consideration of a total purchase price for all items of $75,159.00, Diebold shall provide three licenses to GEMS Software version -- GEMS v.l.I8.l5 at a cost of $17,153 for each additional License and three Computer Server units configured pursuant to the "Medium County GEMS Server Configurations" contained in Appendix C at a cost of $7,900.00 per Server unit to the State of Georgia for the administration of elections in the State of Georgia

[Boredtodeath]

114. 20 machines for KSU and SoS

Georgia Procurement Documents: (Excel Spreadsheet)
http://ssl.doas.state.ga.us/PRSapp/bid-documents/0298000GTA000040_9812.xls

Rows 37/38:
Equipment for Statwide Training and Demonstration Purposes (equipment used by SOS and Kennesaw's Center of Election Systmes)
15 5 20

[Peace Patriot]

128. I want to warn the readers of this thread that the poster "Boredtodeath"

repeatedly slanders Bob Fitrakis throughout this thread--a completely unsupported and gratuitous character assassination--and when I asked him to retract those slanders, he refused to do so and then expanded upon them.

You can scroll down to my exchange with him which begins with post #32. My first comment on his attack on Fitrakis begins this way:

"32. Boredtodeath, why attack Fitrakis in this way, implying that he is...
lying (unsupported allegations) and corrupt (doing it to profit from a book)? From everything we know of him, Fitrakis is an upstanding guy and a courageous truthteller who has been battling extreme corruption in the midst of a highly dangerous fascist coup. We have no reason to disbelieve him. If you have questions, ask them. That is a fair thing to do--asking questions and being curious about the nature of the evidence. But why make these implications?"

Boredtodeath then states, in post #33, of Fitrakis, that "His only motivation is to sell more copies of his book...".

In post #43, I ask him to retract this. In post #44, he says, "I won't," and goes on to say, "There is no other viable reason for his behavior." Then he says, "Prove me wrong"--as if I were required to respond to this McCarthyite tactic ("You are a communist" --"prove me wrong, commie!").

In post #74, I ask Boredtodeath one more time to retract these statements about Fitrakis. He ignores this request. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt--as to overreaching and exaggerating in the heat of a DU debate--and to consider the other points he tries to make here. He refused to take that graceful out.

"Boredtodeath"'s behavior on this matter is abominable, in my opinion--an ugly attack on Fitrakis' integrity with zero evidence to back it up.

I considered just ignoring this and moving on--so that this wretched thread wouldn't keep getting kicked. But, on second thought, I decided to post this warning. Readers should consider "Boredtodeath"'s other points in this thread--and his other threads, for that matter--in light of this exchange.

Our entire exchange on the slander against Fitrakis includes posts # 32, 38, 43, 44, 56, 57 and 74 (and a few in between).

For the record, I have no connection whatsoever to Bob Fitrakis and know him only as a name on my computer screen--and I greatly admire his hard and exhausting and kickass activism on election fraud.

I also urge readers to see "rightfoot"'s posts, and "Boredtodeath"'s replies, starting at post #115, regarding "Boredtodeath" working with Roxanne Jekot, whom "rightfoot" says is connected to ChoicePoint. ("Boredtodeath" readily admits working with Jekot, as a volunteer, and claims no knowledge of the CP information.)

Please also note how "Boredtodeath" begins this main post (up top): "I fully expect that I'll get flamed by writing this...".

The "flaming" has all gone one way--"Boredtodeath" "flaming" Bob Fitrakis, and then "flaming" any who object to such behavior. My solution will be to ignore and discount "Boredtodeath"'s posts in the future. He would not respond to reason or politeness on this matter, and I consider dialoguing with him to be a waste of time.

[Helga Scow Stern]

140. Gee, when and where have I heard this exact approach before?

In this forum. When something very important is emerging.

[eomer]

8. So all we have to do is ask Blackwell...

then he will answer the questions and it will all be cleared up. Why didn't anyone think of this?

[Boredtodeath]

11. Why don't you try it, eomer?

Do an open records request to Blackwell, post it here and then post the replies.

We'll all watch with rapt attention.

That would be more productive than repeating unfounded, unsubstantiated allegations.

[eomer]

15. Yeah, because Fitrakis does nothing but sit around here...

and post unfounded, unsubstantiated allegations. The nerve of the guy.

[Boredtodeath]

16. Not quite

He puts it out on radio shows and his minions do it FOR him.

How about addressing the question? Why not do an open records request of Blackwell and let us all follow along?

You can take some time off DU to help Bob Fritakis, can't you?

[eomer]

18. You know full well that Fitrakis does not sit around doing nothing more

than posting allegations on DU.

These courageous and patriotic attorneys are on the ground in Ohio deciding what action to take at each step of the way. I am a non-attorney in S. Florida. I'm going to leave it to them to decide what the best legal strategy is (call me crazy). If you have a pet theory of what is best to do, go for it. That's your prerogative. It's your pet theory, not mine.

BTW, you're spelling his name wrong.

[Boredtodeath]

19. Ahhh, avoidance

too much like work to actually do more than repeat unsubstantiated allegations, huh?

OK, so I'm spelling his name wrong? And your point is?

And, frankly, it's no theory - it's called investigative journalism. You know, that issue we beat the press up about every day? How our "press" refuses to do their job?

We're not holding Fritakis to the same standard because he's saying what we want to hear, even if he can't prove it, is that it?

(Oops, I guess I spelled his name wrong again - preemptive strike there.)

[eomer]

20. I don't have the power to hold anyone to any standard.

All I can do is receive the information and form my own opinion. My opinion has little if any effect on anyone else so I'll feel free to form it however I want. I don't try to impose it on anyone.

Some sources of information seem more credible to me than others. Here's how I would arrange some of them on my own personal list of credibility:

1. Most credible: Fitrakis, Arnebeck, Truitt, Conyers
   
2. Credible: Clint Curtis
   
3. Partial or imperfect credibility: Bev Harris, Wayne Madsen
   
4. Comes across as looney but who knows, might still be right: Jeff Fisher
   
5. Zero credibility: Kenneth Blackwell, James Baker, Condaleeza Rice and other friends of *
   

My inclination at this point is to believe everything reported by Fitrakis and the others listed in my first category. I base that inclination on their track record and on my interpretion of their actions as being a quest for truth and justice (and not a quest for partisan advantage). Let me know if you find something to disprove that theory.

I believe those in my last category are proven liars.

Edit to add that * himself is of course a proven liar and in the last category.

[mod mom]

103. You guys focus your animousity on blackwell. Bob F is an honest investig-

ator. He was ther during the election and followed through on his gut feelings. He has done good old fashioned investigation, unlike our incompetent press, so lay off the harsh words w/o substance.

[eomer]

112. You used the plural "you guys" and there are only two of us here.

I assume you're addressing your remark toward Boredtodeath. If you meant me, then please read my posts again. I was focusing my animosity on Blackwell and said nothing but praise about Fitrakis.

Edit to add that the first couple of my posts in this series were sarcasm. Maybe you misunderstood and thought I meant them literally, which is the opposite of what I meant. :-)

[Botany]

4. Caution is good but Blackwell is on record in spring of '04 ......

..... saying he now had interactive links to central tabulators. I will try to find
the quote. Why would the links have to be interactive? They should have been
1 way, vote totals into his office ..... that is it.

<In March 2004, Blackwell had issued a release celebrating the fact that the Secretary of State’s office for the first time had the capacity for instant data exchange with the county boards of elections....>

[Boredtodeath]

5. Well, WE have instant data exchange

via the net and email. Does that mean I can hack your computer?

Does that give you the right to claim that I did, in fact, hack your computer because I have the capability?

Let's deal in facts, umkay????????????

[Botany]

7. No I want wild speculation LOL

here are some facts ....

Greene County, OH 3 or 4 precincts for 2 all black colleges (Wilberforce
& Central State) had about 3,800 registered voters..... it produced 50
votes

Delaware, OH had precincts that went to Al Gore in 2000 but went
to * in 2004 despite having more registered democrats

Trumbell County had more absentee ballots then people who registered
for absentee ballots

Franklin County 62 voting machines were held from the public
despite long waits to vote 4 + hours .... Rumor has it BOE head
and former GOP county head Damnschroder had them on trucks
driving around all day

Perry County had a precinct w/ a 126% turn out.

Computer experts have found "back doors" into both voting
machines and central tabulators ...... these had to be designed into
the hardware.

[Boredtodeath]

12. None of which supports THIS allegation

Tell me how Blackwell changed election results with his 2 way connection.

Support the allegations with facts. And, until you come up with some, focus your attention on the FACTS you can prove.

[Botany]

23. Because the #s just do not add up ......

..... I live in Columbus, OH ...... Blackwell did not have an interactive link
installed in his office just for fun. That does not make sense and does
not pass the smell test. He had NO REASON to have an interactive exchange
to central tabulators. The data should have a one way flow to it. Vote count
per county in tabulator then on to Sec. of States office to add to other
counties totals to see who carried the state.

Sure it is a Prima facie case now but it not a weak one @ all. When I see
cow shit in my yard, hear mooing sounds, and see cattle paths around
my house I assume that cattle had been there even if I don't see any
cows @ the present time.

Read page 58 & 59 of the Conyers' report on Miami County, Ohio
..... 19,000 plus votes were loaded after the polls were closed ........
This had to be done @ the central tabulator level ...... impossible to do this @ voting
machine level because they were not turned on @ the time ..... also
the percentage vote for Kerry was exactly the percentage he had before
the additional votes were added ...... a mathematical impossibility .....

http://www.thousandreasons.org/get_article.php?article_id=13

I saw and heard too much not to have any doubt the election was stolen
by a very sophisticated multi level and multi faceted attack.

[Boredtodeath]

28. No one is saying it's not stolen

No one is denying the possibility.

Stop trying to cloud the issue.

There is one issue here - prove this allegation. What kind of 2 way communication did Blackwell have in his office?

You live in Ohio - step up to the plate and do some open records requests to get the PROOF.

I have provided multiple links downthread to make it damned easy for you to do this.

[Boredtodeath]

34. Botany, please send this letter.

I used the letter generator in the link below to create it for you. If you PM me the cost of the documents, I'll send you the funds to cover it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

June 19, 2005

Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State
180 E. Broad St. 16th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215

Dear Mr. Blackwell,

Pursuant to the state open records law, Ohio Rev. Code Ann. sec. 149.43 to 149.44, I write to request access to and a copy of any and all documents, correspondence, requests for bids and purchase documents pertaining to certain equipment as it relates to the following Ohio SoS press release:

Ohio To Report Election Results Online

Friday, February 27, 2004 COLUMBUS - Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell today announced that results for the March 2 Primary will be reported and continually updated on the secretary of state's Web site, http://www.sos.state.oh.us/ beginning at 8 p.m. Tuesday. As unofficial results from county boards of elections are reported to the secretary of state's office, returns for the following races will be immediately posted online: party nominations for President, U.S. senator, chief justice of the Ohio supreme court, Ohio supreme court justice, members of congress, state senator, state representative, and court of appeals. A new feature to this year's online reporting will be an interactive personalized dashboard that allows citizens and media to customize their viewing to specific election results and races. For example, Presidential returns may be paired with a particular congressional or statehouse race; party nominations for U.S. senate may be viewed beside a specific Ohio supreme court race and a court of appeals contest. The dashboard will ultimately allow visitors to the secretary of state's election night Web site to forgo scrolling through numerous lists of candidates and districts. Including all history of the purchase of said equipment. Please include email, written correspondence, all RFP documents and submitted bids.. If your agency does not maintain these public records, please let me know who does and include the proper custodian’s name and address.

I agree to pay any reasonable copying and postage fees of not more than $100.00. If the cost would be greater than this amount, please notify me. Please provide a receipt indicating the charges for each document.

I would request your response within ten (10) business days.

If you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely. Also, please provide all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material.

Please be advised that I am prepared to pursue whatever legal remedy necessary to obtain access to the requested records. I would note that violation of the open records law can result in the award of court costs and attorney fees.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

[Botany]

35. Ken Blackwell or his office is going to no more give up evidence ...

..... damning to him then I will go and play a little middle line backer
for the Browns this year. FOA have been filled by the truck load on him.
The law does not bother or hinder him. He went to Florida in 2000
for bush/cheney to stop the recount. He used to be a liberal democrat.


The rumor is that the interactive computers were paid for
by Tommy Noe's coin fund and by using the laundered Saudi
money run through the Ohio Turnpike Commission ..... so
any expenditures for the election rigging gizmos would be
off the books and could not be seen by FOAs.

You have yet to answer the question .... Why did Blackwell's
office need to have the ability to input data? The flow of vote #s
should be a one way flow. That in it's self raises ?s.

BTW lighten up too ..... this is not the Spanish Inquisition ....

[Boredtodeath]

37. I have no intention of lightening up

Nor should you.

Do you want to PROVE election fraud or do you want to talk about it?

Send the letter - I'll pay the cost. Just PM me a paypal account.

[Botany]

40. I am doing everything I can on this end .....

.... the letter ..... sorry I can not do that. Call me chicken but
that letter is a good way to wind up dead. These are not boy
scouts but evil shits ...... Send it to Bob F. @ the Columbus Free Press
or Columbus State University ..... if multiple people sign it fine.....
I am in..... but a lone signer ..... Sorry I have a son and a small business
Ever heard of the "Texas Strike Force," or Ray Lemme?

maybe send it to the reporter @ the Toledo Blade who is covering coingate .....

It is a good move .... no doubt but I am sorry I can not do it. I know of a person involved in the Ohio recount who had her life threatened by armed state troopers.

[Peace Patriot]

32. Boredtodeath, why attack Fitrakis in this way, implying that he is...

lying (unsupported allegations) and corrupt (doing it to profit from a book)? From everything we know of him, Fitrakis is an upstanding guy and a courageous truthteller who has been battling extreme corruption in the midst of a highly dangerous fascist coup. We have no reason to disbelieve him. If you have questions, ask them. That is a fair thing to do--asking questions and being curious about the nature of the evidence. But why make these implications?

I didn't hear the interview(s), but I gather from accounts that a whistleblower has come forth--AFTER publication of the book (which makes sense to me--the book publication may have stirred the whistleblower)--and that Fitrakis just recently learned this new information. As for whistleblowers protecting themselves--not signing affidavits or letting their names be revealed--we can only imagine what it would be like to be a whistleblower in these highly dangerous circumstances. There is no guarantee of any protection, and in fact there IS a pretty darn certain guarantee that if you oppose the Bush regime in any serious way, you will be punished, possibly severely. To use this against Fitrakis--to imply that he is a liar and publicity hound--seems extremely unfair to me.

You also associate him with Bev Harris and the blistering DU controversies about her. Again, unfair. What has Fitrakis done to deserve these implications?

An investigative reporter is not necessarily in a position to reveal sources or to detail what he knows. A radio interview is not a court of law. You demand verification but fail to acknowledge that the answer to your demand may put both Fitrakis and whistleblower in jeopardy. Fitrakis may have spoken of the matter in public as a form of protection. If enough people know where the arrow is pointing--straight into Blackwell's office and at the central tabulators--then Fitrakis and whistleblower and the information itself have some protection against skullduggery. But naming the whistleblower against his wishes? I can't imagine any decent investigator doing that--it would be unconscionable. And detailing the information could leave it wide open to a "fix."

Instead of giving Fitrakis these benefits of the doubt--a quite reasonable thing to do re: Fitrakis--you jump to the conclusion that he is probably in the wrong, and you most certainly leave out the context of extreme corruption that Blackwell and the Bush Cartel have created.

Again, questions, yes, okay. We all have questions about what is going on in Ohio. But implications like these? They are not warranted, and they are extremely unfair.

----------

I am reminded of the attacks on Wayne Madsen here at DU, with people jumping to the conclusion that he was grandstanding and didn't "have the goods" re a check that he had gotten a copy of, that he believed was part of a money laundering scheme to fund phony terrorist alerts during the election.

People thought it was nothing partly because it didn't happen--there was no general "terrorist alert" effort to shut down the voting (except for Warren County, Ohio). But it never occurred to these critics that Madsen may have stumbled upon a BACKUP plan--or the bits and pieces of one that he couldn't quite put together, and that he possibly went public with it in the hopes that the other pieces would fall into place.

In my opinion, such as backup plan for stealing the election was well set up with numerous phony "terrorist alerts" planted in the news just prior to the election. I suspect that Dick Cheney's extremely odd trip to Hawaii two days before the election may have been an element of such a plan. (They put out a laughable story that Hawaii was going to turn "red" and that's why Cheney was going there, to stump for votes.) As it turned out, the electronic voting scam and the overt voter suppression were sufficient to overcome the vote for Kerry, and a "terrorist alert" (shutting down Calif freeways?) was not needed to retain power. Given the Bush Cartel's desperate need to retain power--to prevent prosecution of their numerous known and yet to be known crimes--can any of us doubt that they more than likely had such a backup plan?

What I'm saying is that the fact that people get foiled in "delivering the goods," can't quite piece the thing together, or can't or won't provide US with the hard evidence, does not mean that hard evidence does not exist, or that something very dirty did not occur in this dirtiest of elections in the history of democracy.

And human beings ALWAYS have mixed motives--selling books, keeping body and soul together, wanting to be "the one" who got the big story, etc., etc. Whistleblowing in fact REQUIRES someone who doesn't mind publicity, or even enjoys it. These motives aren't bad, necessarily. They can be quite mixed with the higher motives of truthtelling, and higher qualities like courage. They are NOT reasons to automatically distrust someone. Of course Bob Fitrakis wants to sell books! He's not funded by the Corporate Rulers! How is he going to live, while he's doing what he's doing--performing a huge patriotic service to us all?

And bear this in mind. I fully realized this myself only after the Kevin Shelley debacle in California (and should have been more aware of it after the CBS/Bush-duty-shirking thing). BLACK OPS ARE AT WORK, specifically to discredit investigators, whistleblowers and vigilant public servants like Shelley.

I think you--and all of us--should be much more worried about THAT than about Bob Fitrakis wanting to sell books, or even about a Fitrakis exaggeration or misstatement or someone misinterpreting him. Our country, and all the good people in it, are under siege right now, by an extensive conspiracy of disinformation and brainwashing. It is extremely difficult to get at the truth, and extremely dangerous to know it.

Why jump on THIS--with so many facts still unknown--rather than on THAT--the state of siege against the truth that the Bush Cartel is conducting?

[Boredtodeath]

33. Because I listened to him on the radio

And I don't consider this kind of behavior helpful in any way.

What is his purpose in putting out unsubstantiated allegations? Why not make this public after he has the proof in hand?

What the hell is the purpose of making these statements (twice now) without anything to prove it?

All he's done now is give them a heads up that we have suspicions and they're shredding documents as we type here.

His only motivation is to sell more copies of his book by making his book seem to contain more information that it does. And, frankly, that sucks.

[Peace Patriot]

38. "His ONLY motivation"? Are you listening to yourself, Bored?

"His ONLY motivation is to sell more copies of his book..." --Boredtodeath (emphasis added)

Come on.

See Klimmer's thread on his recent conversation with Fitrakis and the dangers to his whistleblower(s):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x378939

[Boredtodeath]

39. Prove me wrong

Get someone to request the records. I've already done the open records request, and I've offered to pay the cost (see my posts to botany).

We've been down this road with Bev Harris. Why the hell does DU want to go down it again?

Danger to whistleblowers? My dear friend has had 3 attempts on the life of her family for investigating this issue - I know only too well about the dangers. But SHE doesn't quit. SHE refuses to give in to these thugs. Are you going to?

We cannot win this battle with hyperbolic radio interviews. We NEED PROOF.

[mod mom]

106. Greene County predominately African American College voters denied yet a

similiar circumstance at Nazareth college in Mt Vernon (Knox County, Republican, near Kenyon College which had 10+ hour lines) were allowed to register to vote. One of the many stories reported by Free Press.

by the way...Bob Fitrakis has a radio show in Columbus Ohio which is on an African American R & B station. He is trusted in the community. He looks out for the community.

[organik]

21. It's probably true. Lets find out...

I don't understand the controversy. Sure it's just an allegation, but doesn't that warrant more investigation? Conyers and everyone else in the election investigation and reform crowd should know about it ASAP, then Fitrakis will have to answer to it. Simple.

[Boredtodeath]

22. Agreed!

Any Ohio activists who can do an open records request?

Help us with Ohio sunshine laws?

The first step is to find out what it is exactly that sits in Blackwell's office.

Some real good First Amendment resources in Ohio at this link:
http://www.nfoic.org/web/resource/ohio/ohio.htm

[Boredtodeath]

26. Great link here

http://www.splc.org/foiletter.asp

Fully Automated, Fill-in-the-Blanks
State Open Records Law Request Letter Generator

Welcome to the Student Press Law Center's nationally recognized, automated open records law letter generator! Since its launch in 1997, our unique letter generator has been used tens of thousands of times to assist student journalists and other citizens obtain access to public records maintained by state or local government officials. The Student Press Law Center is happy to provide our letter generator free of charge as a public service. (If you would like to support our ability to continue and expand this service, click here).

[demodonkey]

24. Triad COULD and DID change the tabulating software via modem...

...on some OH County Computers while setting up for the Ohio Recount. Stated to me directly by BOE Director in punch card (NON-Diebold) county.

A "famous" Triad tech told one of my county observers that there ARE direct links from counties to Blackwell's SOS office. What we did not get out of him was whether the link is over the open Internet or some sort of private network (and if so, how it was set up.) But we tried.

[Boredtodeath]

27. Did you do open records requests?

Come on folks, purchases with state funds are part of public records.

They bought this thing - they paid for it with taxpayer money.

Who is going to step up to the plate to get the information so we can all stop speculating?

Everyone has excuses, where is the courage?

[demodonkey]

36. No excuses here, I am from PA...

... I was a regional coordinator for the Ohio Recount, which is where/when this info was obtained. There is an open Federal Court case regarding the Recount; my reports have been submitted and I DO stand ready to testify any time and any place if needed. The court and parties to the suit have subpoena power.

If that case fails or stalls and OH citizens want to FOIA; I will be glad to HELP (and have told several groups in OH so) however please understand that in the meantime I am working hard in my own neighboring state of PA. We have our own set of problems here and IMHO if we can't make progress against our problems PA may become the OH of 2006 or 2008.

[LightningFlash]

69. No doubts this is what they were hiding....

Blackwell, Thomas Noe and some other BOE members logging in and over-writing data through two way connection transfer. What is needed is to force an open FOIA and retrieve the county records now along with a Writ of Marandus, by any prosecuting attorney such as Landshark.

[Boredtodeath]

72. And, if it's a DIEBOLD machine, we're in like flynn!

Because of the audit logs.

We'll have proof.

[Andy_Stephenson]

127. Maybe maybe not...

remember the Diebold audit logs can be altered.

[Klimmer]

25. BoredtoDeath ---

Go and see Bob Fitrakis or call him and ask him these Qs. I have no personal or business connection to him. I'm an activist and fellow DU member and I want to know the truth. An opportunity presented itself in San Diego and I went to see him speak.

I went to see him last night (6-18) and he is very credible. He is a long time political science professor and activist. They are not out to make a buck on the book. In fact it nearly didn't happen except for the kind and generous money from a source in California. All the proceeds are going back to print more books. They are true patriots.

He said, Blackwell admitted to them many times that he would not do anything they asked. They can ask but he won't do it. So FOIA requests would probably be ignored. The SOS is a bold crook. And he can be because of the way Ohio politics, the law, and the state troopers are in bed together. Bob has many eye-opening personal experiences to relate. They took depositions and statements from over 500 people and continue to do so.

The investigations and data gathering are going forward. They are continuing the hard work. They are looking at public records when they are allowed to.

I talked to him face to face and asked. He has nothing to hide and he will tell you straight what you want to know. And he will tell you why he can't tell you certain things. The investigation goes forward. But sources have to be protected. It is life and death whether you want to think so or not.

Sure be skeptical, but don't go slamming someone who you haven't even attempted to communicate with and find out the answers to your questions directly. Go see him, give him a call, or email him. He is a working college professor and you can easily get in touch.

[Boredtodeath]

29. I want to know the truth as well

But, my larger point is, was and has repeatedly been - GET THE PROOF and stop making unsubstantiated allegations.

[Peace Patriot]

43. Your "larger point," Boredtodeath??? You made the direct accusation,

above, that "His ONLY motivation is to sell more copies of his book..." (emphasis added).

How do you know what his motivation is, let alone what his "only" motivation is? Hm-m? And you're interested in the truth?

Please tell me how you know all this, about his motivation.

You shouldn't be making "larger points" and then tossing this off on the side--that the man is solely motivated by profit.

You have very much undermined your "larger point" with this accusation. It is merely your opinion that what Fitrakis said about Blackwell and the central tabulators "is not helpful." That may or may not be true, but why should we give your opinion of the matter any credence, when you are accusing Bob Fitrakis, of all people, of having the SOLE motivation of SELLING his books.

The Rove "pod people" said this about Richard Clark, too, and about Joseph Wilson. It's the cheapest shot in the world. And it is such a standard disinformation tactic that it brings you yourself under suspicion of having ill intent--in my opinion.

So, I therefore request that you retract this statement about Bob Fitrakis' motives.

[Boredtodeath]

44. I won't

There is no other viable reason for his behavior.

The net effect is that he is warning Blackwell that we're onto him all the while giving him time to shred the documents.

No, I will NOT retract that statement.

Everyone should also note that you've neglected to respond to my post #39.

Please, prove me wrong.

[Peace Patriot]

56. You've slandered the man, Boredtodeath, and you have offered zero

evidence that your accusation that "his ONLY motivation is to sell copies of his book" (emphasis added) is true.

And now you've added another groundless psychological assessment: "There is no other viable reason for his behavior."

These statements are insupportable.

If this is not your "larger point"--to slander Fitrakis--then you will apologize for these statements and retract them, so that the "larger point" that you claim to be making can be discussed. Otherwise, I cannot trust anything you have to say, and cannot give it any credence.

Retracting these statements about Fitrakis is the right thing to do, Bored. They are peripheral to your other points, and are gratuitous, unnecessary and completely without foundation.

-----------

I also think that it is absurd to say that "he is warning Blackwell that we're onto him all the while giving him time to shred the documents."

You think Blackwell doesn't know that people are "onto him"? You think he hasn't shredded anything shreddable long ago?

You said above that "Blackwell is not stupid"--although I'm not sure I agree with that; I think the Bush Cartel may have set him up as the patsy for all this--most certainly not an innocent patsy, but a patsy nonetheless--a convenient scapegoat should the need arise, and one whom they will instantly abandon if they need to. In that sense, I think he is stupid. But I don't think he is stupid enough to have left a paper trail lying about, that would put him at the keyboard of the central tabulators that night. Maybe he is, but it is not at all likely. And you think that the chief person investigating this item would tip him off--to sell books? It's possible, I suppose, but, given who we're talking about--Bob Fitrakis--not very likely, to say the least.

So, now you are accusing Fitrakis of stupidly "warning him" and "giving him time to shred the documents." Bob Fitrakis! I don't think these are reasonable presumptions about Fitrakis. Anyone can make mistakes, read things wrong, bungle an investigation, get a big head, or what-all--and Fitrakis is a human being and therefore subject to temptation and error, as are we all. But he has shown no sign of such foolishness in the past. And you carry this speculation very far, indeed, on the basis of no evidence (warning Blackwell; shredding of docs). As with the personal accusations, you are reaching and exaggerating--the very things you accuse Fitrakis of.

Do you not see how seriously this undermines your "larger point"?

A reasonable questioning and curiosity about the evidence would be in order. All this mudslinging and speculation are not.

[Boredtodeath]

57. Puuuuuuuuuuuulease!

So sue me for slander.

Until you prove otherwise, his allegations have no purpose but to sell a book.

Prove me wrong. See you in court.

[kster]

58. Thats telling him....nt

[mod mom]

104. As always Peace Patriot, your comments are wise and eloquent!

[kster]

30. Sorry, Got to take Fritakis word

on this, thanks for the heads up.

[Boredtodeath]

31. So you have NO interest in proving the allegation?

Just repeating it?

And you wonder why reporters and the folks at dailyKos call us "fraudsters" with no interest in proving fraud, just interest in making the allegations.

I'll just repeat it because <insert today's left wing hero> said it.

Wow!

[kster]

45. If I was talking with

someone I would say Fritakis SAID, so the person I was speaking with could decide for themselves if the source was good.

Like when I read it, the poster said Fritakus said it on the radio. Being as I am on the poster and Fritakus side in all of this,I won't open up a full scale investigation on the what the poster or Fritakus said.

Of course I will wait to get it verified, but to go out and investigate one of our own right now is a bit premature,don't you think?

[Boredtodeath]

46. I'm not asking you to investigate HIM

I'm asking you to ASSIST him in his investigation.

Get those documents and hand them over to Fitrakis - PLEASE.

In the meantime, stop helping our enemies discount our facts by pointing out that you are repeating unsubstantiated rumors.

[meganmonkey]

47. Talk about repeating an allegation without proving it!

I'm literally laughing out loud reading this thread - however inappropriate that is in this serious matter.

Why don't YOU prove your allegations about Fitrakis, his intentions and his credibility? Many of us have followed his work on this and many other issues for years and it takes more than your unfounded allegations to shake my confidence in him.

I am more likely to question your motivations and credibility here, sorry.

Peace.

[Boredtodeath]

48. Aha! Progress!

Good! Question me. Question Blackwell. Question Fitrakis. Question everything.

Please!

[meganmonkey]

51. Okay, I will question you...

This forum, in its various levels of activity - from spastic hyper to slow-motion, has been a place where lots and lots of evidence, allegations, clues, and misguided assumptions have been discussed. There have been many instances where some piece of information comes up and it looks like the 'smoking gun' and we got all excited only to have it fizzle away. I think we have all grown a little cynical, and weary of the excitement of this or that or whatever piece of exciting news.

That said, we are still actively pursuing a solution to the problem of exposing the fraud that we KNOW happened. So when new evidence comes up, yeah we still get excitied and we discuss it and we encourage the folks on the front lines (like in this case, Fitrakis) and we wait for more info and we pray for press coverage and we write letters and faxes to the media.

But we aren't naive, we aren't little delicate flowers. The people who are still active in this forum have seen their hopes crushed when some evidence fell through or got nowhere enough times to build up a little thick skin to protect us if this one or next one goes nowhere too.

So what IS your motivation here? Either:

- you think we are all still incredibly naive and fragile and you are trying to protect us from our own optimism (which I would almost find offensive given what this forum has seen and done for the last 8 months)

- or maybe you know something we don't know, in which case PLEASE SHARE IT,

- or you are trying to discourage investigation.

Maybe there is a 4th option I haven't even thought of, so please enlighten me. Where are you coming from on this?

[Boredtodeath]

52. 4th option

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

Investigate. GET THE PROOF.

I've gone all the way to writing the letter to obtain the proof and offered to pay whatever cost is involved.

Step up to the plate and send the letter.

INVESTIGATE.

PLEASE.

[meganmonkey]

54. Which brings me back to my original comment

and you have successfully turned it back around....

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT FITRAKIS ISN'T DOING EXACTLY THAT?

And for that matter, why don't you send the letter yourself if you think it's such a great idea? I am asking questions about YOU, not Fitrakis.

[Boredtodeath]

55. About ME

Frankly, I'm working my ass off with the Georgia team. Putting my mouth, money and ass on the line every day.

Now, how about you?

[meganmonkey]

60. That is not what I asked

I asked what your hard evidence is regarding Fitrakis' intentions, and why you don't send the letter yourself.

If you don't want to answer those questions, then don't respond. But please stop changing the subject.

Peace.

[Boredtodeath]

63. Bwahahahahahaha, I'm changing the subject?

Look, you can try your personal attacks all you want.

I've answered your questions, when are YOU going to step up to the plate and do something besides keyboard activism?

GET THE DOCUMENTS. GET THE PROOF. HELP YOUR HERO.

PROVE ME WRONG.

[meganmonkey]

70. Wow -

I ask you questions that you don't answer (none of which questioned YOUR activism, btw) and then you call me a 'keyboard activist' - THAT is the closest thing to a personal attack I have seen in this exchange, although I can take it. This isn't about who is 'more active' - and although I am doing much more than 'keyboard activism', I don't feel the need to defend myself to you. It is likely that in time and money spent you are far more active than me, that is not the point.

I have read your posts on this board for months and I know you are personally active, I am not questioning that. That is why I was surprised to see you make insinuations about Fitrakis' motivations. And that is why I questioned you on it. I figured you knew more than you were saying, otherwise why would you be saying it?

I don't understand why you made accusations against Fitrakis, and I don't understand why you won't answer my questions.

At this point I don't expect you to.

Damn, this forum has changed a lot over the last few months. No wonder I seldom post in here anymore. There is a dynamic in here that I am just not up to speed with - there is a lot of factioning and infighting and I just don't get it. I thought the point was to work through stuff and expose the fraudsters. I admit my first post was a little caustic but...geez...

Peace.

[salin]

41. listen, even hope - but verify before acting

sort of appropriate advice for a movement seeking "verification" of votes.

Point being - it is too easy for folks (esp officials) to be dismissive if/when huge charges are made that can not be proven and those charges are used to "demonstrate" that the issue/concern is a product of "paranoid conspiracy theorists".

That, I believe, is the point of the thead - and I would have to agree.

It isn't that one can't believe, or hope - but that before acting, claiming, repeating or making demands - seek verification, proof, evidence that can be "taken to the bank" so to speak.

[Boredtodeath]

42. Thanks, salin

That IS the point of this thread.

[GettysbergII]

49. Certainly until hard evidence is presented one should take any

'allegations' as unproven. I would assume Bob is aware of this and realized that if he is unable to back up his claims that his own reputation will be tarnished. But by the same token, I did not see you present any 'proof' that Bob is only pushing this story to sell books. That too is an unsubstanciate allegation and if you can not provide hard evidence to that effect, then your reputation also deserves to be tarnished.

By your logic the only reason why Rainbow PUSH totally featured issues revolving around creating "a more perect Union" in their annual conference was to sell Jesse Jackson Junior's new book of the same title. Or that the only reason Conyers continues to push election fraud issues is to sell his book. The fact is that all three of these men took great risks last November to their careers and perhaps even their live's by speaking out forcefully and continuously on voting issues in Ohio when nobody is the MSM or even on the big name blogs and progressive magazines wanted anything to do with it. Clearly reducing them now to a bunch of panderers is going to be a hard sell around here.

[mod mom]

50. BOB IS NOT OUT FOR $ AS YOU IMPLY! I personally know him and have the

highest respect for his integrity and work ethics. Bob and Harvey have been fighting for the truth in Columbus OH for years. Not only is he an investigative journalist but he is an attorney, as well as a professor of political science.

Should we all just pack up our work and forget about the election fraud since we don't have subpoena power and are not able to present our evidence before a full congressional hearing? I THINK NOT!

I would also like to remind people reading this that John Conyers has the highest regard for Bob.

Let's focus the dissing where it belongs: the fraudulently installed administration and their immoral war!

[Boredtodeath]

53. THEN HELP HIM

Step up and send the letter.

Get him the proof.

I wrote the letter, agreed to pay any cost associate with it and support an investigation to prove the allegations.

Yet, not one DUer has stepped up to the plate to do so.

Will you?

Send the letter, then PM me a paypal account.

[mod mom]

59. I do contribute to Bob through Freepress.org -CICJ! the problem is we do

not have subpoena power.

On a little brighter note: In Ohio 5 of the 7 (REPUG) Supreme Court Justices have recused themselves in the NOE Coingate case. There are groups pursuing this connection (Noe was connection to the Lucas County BOE, and brought Diebold into the county. If we can get enough info on this angle we have a chance of getting subpoena power and a real investigation!

[Boredtodeath]

61. No subpoena necessary - this is public information

Send this letter. If you PM me the cost of the documents and a paypal account, I'll send you the funds to cover it. That machine had to be purchased with taxpayer funds and with an RFP or sole souce document.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

June 19, 2005

Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State
180 E. Broad St. 16th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215

Dear Mr. Blackwell,

Pursuant to the state open records law, Ohio Rev. Code Ann. sec. 149.43 to 149.44, I write to request access to and a copy of any and all documents, correspondence, requests for bids and purchase documents pertaining to certain equipment as it relates to the following Ohio SoS press release:

Ohio To Report Election Results Online

Friday, February 27, 2004 COLUMBUS - Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell today announced that results for the March 2 Primary will be reported and continually updated on the secretary of state's Web site, http://www.sos.state.oh.us / beginning at 8 p.m. Tuesday. As unofficial results from county boards of elections are reported to the secretary of state's office, returns for the following races will be immediately posted online: party nominations for President, U.S. senator, chief justice of the Ohio supreme court, Ohio supreme court justice, members of congress, state senator, state representative, and court of appeals. A new feature to this year's online reporting will be an interactive personalized dashboard that allows citizens and media to customize their viewing to specific election results and races. For example, Presidential returns may be paired with a particular congressional or statehouse race; party nominations for U.S. senate may be viewed beside a specific Ohio supreme court race and a court of appeals contest. The dashboard will ultimately allow visitors to the secretary of state's election night Web site to forgo scrolling through numerous lists of candidates and districts. Including all history of the purchase of said equipment. Please include email, written correspondence, all RFP documents and submitted bids.. If your agency does not maintain these public records, please let me know who does and include the proper custodian’s name and address.

I agree to pay any reasonable copying and postage fees of not more than $100.00. If the cost would be greater than this amount, please notify me. Please provide a receipt indicating the charges for each document.

I would request your response within ten (10) business days.

If you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely. Also, please provide all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material.

Please be advised that I am prepared to pursue whatever legal remedy necessary to obtain access to the requested records. I would note that violation of the open records law can result in the award of court costs and attorney fees.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

[LightningFlash]

62. How about do a forced FOIA?

With Howard Dean's help, we can get a forced FOIA through to retrieve the county records. That would settle it all and I'm sure the whistle blower just like Clint Curtis would sign the affidvait.

For that matter nobody knows if they've already done it. The Ohio DNC did say they are released a huge report in the next 6 days along WITH pages of evidence.

[Boredtodeath]

64. FOIA followed by Writ of Mandamus

Easy.

Writ of Mandamus is a court order forcing an official being paid with tax dollars to do their job.

[LightningFlash]

66. Doesn't even need to be the same court....

Any experienced attorney could do this. They need it along with the tabulator logs and Blackwell would be finished.

[Boredtodeath]

68. You don't even NEED an attorney

Asking a judge to tell an official to do his job is something a citizen can do.

Official spends tax dollars - Official has to account for those tax dollars when asked.

Judge says "Do it."

[LightningFlash]

71. I still reccomend....

You get at least a seasoned Landshark expert there, because they know what they're talking about and can order them to hand it over. That should be the first priority.

[Boredtodeath]

73. Fitrakis IS an attorney.

If they won't respond, he should be able to step in with the writ.

[mod mom]

79. and a smart one at that. Blackwell didn't respond to Conyers. I don't

know if Bob tried this avenue, but I guess he would have.

[LightningFlash]

80. Haven't heard about this yet.

Why don't they ask Fitrakis personally if he has gone this route yet?

[Boredtodeath]

82. Blackwell "locked down" election records

during the recount, but it's over and there is no legal excuse not to turn over public documents.

[Peace Patriot]

65. Bored, someone upthread asked you why you aren't sending the..

...letter yourself? Why aren't you?

[Boredtodeath]

67. Because I'm buried

in Georgia documents.

Pick a state, any state. I did. How 'bout you take Ohio?

[Peace Patriot]

74. P.S. FOIA requests to a criminal public official like Blackwell aren't...

...worth the paper they are printed on if you don't have considerable legal funds and a good lawyer to take the matter to court, and then you must have a fair hearing in court. So it's probably a useless exercise as far as Ohio is concerned.

I would also personally hesitate to interfere with Fitrakis' investigation. He's an experienced lawyer and investigator. I can't imagine that he hasn't thought of FOIA, and hasn't used it, if he thought it would be fruitful.

But, Bored, if you still think it's a worthy project, why aren't you doing it yourself? Really, why are you asking someone else to take up this matter that you believe is so important?

And why don't you call up Bob Fitrakis or email him, and ask him if he's thought of this, and needs help in doing it--instead of just badmouthing him?

I've pretty much concluded that you are wasting our time, and are merely making mischief here. But I will give you one more shot at retracting your personal statements about Bob Fitrakis, and convincing me that your "larger point" is of any importance at all. Then I'm outa here--back to the California situation, and the letter-writing and public pressure campaign against Diebold and ES&S and their latest election theft machines.

[Boredtodeath]

75. You're WRONG

A writ of mandamus is easy to get. Read up thread.

And Fitrakis IS AN ATTORNEY.

[Time for change]

105. Can I see your letter? n/t

[Boredtodeath]

107. Here you go, TimeforChange

June 19, 2005

Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State
180 E. Broad St. 16th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215

Dear Mr. Blackwell,

Pursuant to the state open records law, Ohio Rev. Code Ann. sec. 149.43 to 149.44, I write to request access to and a copy of any and all documents, correspondence, requests for bids and purchase documents pertaining to certain equipment as it relates to the following Ohio SoS press release:

Ohio To Report Election Results Online

Friday, February 27, 2004 COLUMBUS - Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell today announced that results for the March 2 Primary will be reported and continually updated on the secretary of state's Web site, http://www.sos.state.oh.us / beginning at 8 p.m. Tuesday. As unofficial results from county boards of elections are reported to the secretary of state's office, returns for the following races will be immediately posted online: party nominations for President, U.S. senator, chief justice of the Ohio supreme court, Ohio supreme court justice, members of congress, state senator, state representative, and court of appeals. A new feature to this year's online reporting will be an interactive personalized dashboard that allows citizens and media to customize their viewing to specific election results and races. For example, Presidential returns may be paired with a particular congressional or statehouse race; party nominations for U.S. senate may be viewed beside a specific Ohio supreme court race and a court of appeals contest. The dashboard will ultimately allow visitors to the secretary of state's election night Web site to forgo scrolling through numerous lists of candidates and districts. Including all history of the purchase of said equipment. Please include email, written correspondence, all RFP documents and submitted bids.. If your agency does not maintain these public records, please let me know who does and include the proper custodian’s name and address.

I agree to pay any reasonable copying and postage fees of not more than $100.00. If the cost would be greater than this amount, please notify me. Please provide a receipt indicating the charges for each document.

I would request your response within ten (10) business days.

If you choose to deny this request, please provide a written explanation for the denial including a reference to the specific statutory exemption(s) upon which you rely. Also, please provide all segregable portions of otherwise exempt material.

Please be advised that I am prepared to pursue whatever legal remedy necessary to obtain access to the requested records. I would note that violation of the open records law can result in the award of court costs and attorney fees.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

[Time for change]

109. Thank you boredtodeath

I will discuss this with The Ohio Project, with which I do volunteer work. I think they will be interested in this. I'll get back with you soon.

[Boredtodeath]

113. Thank you and The Ohio Project

for stepping up and staying on this issue.

[kster]

76. Here something we should be looking into

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/jim-lampley/the-ultimate-deception_2838.html

[farmbo]

77. Sorry BTD...it's not our job to "truth squad" for Ken Blackwell

Five hundred Ohio Assistant Attorneys General... and the Fruitballs over at Free Republic... have that operation under control.

Ken Blackwell did not leave any "paper records" of tabulator access anywhere where they can be discovered by investigators. Indeed, its not likely that Blackwell-- a second rate political hack-- would have done the dirty deed himself. An inside Tech would have been brought in, quite possibly under the cover of the infamous "Terror Lock down" in Warren County. (Far too many nosy reporters at the SOS office in Columbus on Election night)

Thus, to suggest that, absent paper documents, Fitrakas' allegations should be ignored, is nothing more than a rationale for inaction.

[Boredtodeath]

78. Inaction? LOL, that's a baseless accusation

All I have done is call for action in this thread. Nor have I called for the allegations to be ignored.

Nice attempt to twist the facts.

And, you really should pay attention - this machine was brought into the SoS office and announced in his press release Friday, February 27, 2004 - a full 9 months before the election.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/news/release/02-27-04.htm

[LightningFlash]

81. And that's the type of software Blackwell had installed in his office....

Please, do you think it REALLY would say in the press release that it also had two-way re-write capability or every other thing included like an infomercial package?

How do you think Blackwell was going to cover up his own sloppy crimes?

Plus Fitrakis has included in the book reports from the state troopers-They confirm what was installed there. That's more than enough to confirm the allegations and when it was installed. All they actually need, is the login records.

[Boredtodeath]

83. I don't KNOW anything

except that we should KNOW everything about this machine/these machines.

Assumptions are not facts and we can't base allegations on assumptions. We need the facts.

Was this a Diebold GEMS server? ES&S tabulator? Triad tabulator?

We should not go around alleging "2 way communications" when we have proof of no such thing.

All I'm saying is that without the FACTS, we shouldn't be making claims we cannot support.

We've been down this road with Bev Harris and we need to be careful not to go down it again.

We're just starting to recover from the media damage Bev Harris did and we don't need to turn the media off again. A lot of doors were closed when we needed them the most when Bev made unsupported allegations she couldn't prove later.

[LightningFlash]

84. Why don't you actually read the book?

These people have looked at the inside of the pages on the book, as have I. It's backed up quite unilaterally. There is nothing "suspicious" about that.

This has nothing to do with whether it was Diebold or not or even what was installed, as it is ALL covered inside. This in fact has to do with who was logged in or not and what the data logs actually show.

[Boredtodeath]

85. Whoa then why did Fitrakis say

None of this was IN THE BOOK? That these discoveries were made (from whistleblowers who won't sign affidavits) AFTER THE BOOK WAS PRINTED.

Listen to the radio interviews.

[LightningFlash]

129. I don't think he ever said that.

He stated it was the state troopers who told of the details and that not everything was finished before it made it into the book, is what I directly heard him say. But I didn't listen to this show I listened to Raw Radio's broadcast.

[Boredtodeath]

135. Then garybeck heard differently than you

Because he just claimed none of this was IN THE BOOK, as I did.

[jsamuel]

86. I have screen shots from that night - Shows Manipulation

I program web interfaces for the state for a living and I know how these things work. Either the DATABASE CODE was messed up (putting the data in the wrong places) or there was MANIPULATION of the database by HUMAN HANDS. Either way you look at it, that compromises the election data.

[Boredtodeath]

87. Did you happen to View Source?

or store the page using File>SaveAs>HTML?

If you have either, we'll know if it was Diebold and if it was the suspect program JResultsClient.

[jsamuel]

88. No i didn't view source

But it doesn't matter, you can see the source on the screen right infront of you. They had to use a for/while/do-while loop for all the county voting data. That means that if one was messed up, then all should be messed up, and if one wasn't messed up then none should be messed up. So we can see that this was not a >>>WEB INTERFACE<<< problem. It is realy very simple.

[Boredtodeath]

89. Can you post the graphic?

Diebold's JResultsClient is a Java application. I'd like to see what you captured. Maybe we can nail down what application it came from.

[jsamuel]

90. Thought i already did but here is a link

or two

http://comp.uark.edu/~jsamuel/ohioElectionHamilton.jpg --
Hamilton County
and
http://comp.uark.edu/~jsamuel/ohioElectionProblem.jpg -- Other
County

[Boredtodeath]

91. OK, I see on one

Kerry and Cobb have the exact same number 39,541 on Hamilton.jpg, but I'm missing the issue on the other graphic. Unless you mean where Kerry is out of order?

But this doesn't give me a clue what application was generating the data. If anything, it doesn't look ANYTHING like Diebold's JResultsClient.

[jsamuel]

92. lol, only that Cobb got a total of 192 votes in the whole state

and it shows him with 4 thousand votes in Lucas county alone with only 6% of precincts reporting and Kerry has 0 votes.

It is obvious that Cobb was getting Kerry's votes or something to that effect.

[Boredtodeath]

93. OK, got that

Which gives us all the more reason to find out where the hell this "system" came from and how the data was generated.

I doubt these numbers were being keyed in by an operator. We need to find out what the source is and how they got uploaded.

[jsamuel]

94. Right, it was being dynamically generated from a Database

this database was getting data from another database, or from the central tabulator. It is even possible that it was reading data directly from the central tabulator. However we don't know this, it is just one possibility. The point being that however the data was gotten it was skrewed up only in some places. Since these counties were updated constantly we KNOW that it was not humans who were updating the web site. It was the database that was being updated automatically from the cental tabulator or from a computer who got it's data from the central tabulator. The most likely problem then would be (since not all of the data, but only select counties were messed up) that the program used to insert data into the central tabulator was messing up on the night of the election or that someone was sitting at the central tabulator or one of the computers connected to it and was changing SOME of the data by hand. These hand changes would go unnoticed EXCEPT for when they were MISTAKES, such as giving the votes to Cobb instead of Kerry, or giving the same number of votes to Cobb as Kerry. But either way you look at it, the election night data was comming in wrong and was compromised.

[Boredtodeath]

97. Your scenario isn't necessarily the ONLY way

Using JResultsClient (if it was Diebold), the data is downloaded from a computer onto a floppy disk and displayed using JResultsClient on a different machine.

Either end could be bad (mismatched) data not touched by human hands.

If the web form was mismatched with the data (rotating names) the data file could still be untouched and simply displaying the data with the wrong name.

[jsamuel]

98. While yours is possible it is the least likely of all because...

That would mean that there were two primary keys in the db with the same value in Hamilton County (Cobb and Kerry) WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE! However, if we forget that part and just look at the fact that later that night the data "corrected" itself. Then we know that there was manipulation of the data by hand in order to "correct" it. But none of that even matters because, there is no way that the data was trasfered by floppy. It was being updated by the second. It was being done automatically over a network.

[Boredtodeath]

100. Well, that means it wasn't Diebold equipment n/t

.

[Boredtodeath]

101. Here's an example of JResultsClient

http://www.fultonelections.com/1123runoff.html

[jsamuel]

102. Yeah, that is not the same thing as ohio's state website

http://election.sos.state.oh.us/Results/RaceSummary.aspx

[mod mom]

108. this is not working for me and I am very interested in copying Lucas

county info. any suggestions?

[Blue Shark]

95. Interesting catch on Hamilton there... N/T

[jsamuel]

96. I wish people would put it in a news paper or flash them on tv

it would be nice if people even knew half of what crap happened that night.

[LightningFlash]

130. Looks like direct manipulation in the aggregate database...

Thanks for keeping these, they really help to complete the picture. Looks like a BOE member had logged into the BOE in order to change it....

[jsamuel]

132. Do you remember Judi Woodruf making an ass of herself on CNN

on election night. Shortly after Bush told the press he wanted them to call NM for him before he claimed victory, they said that NM was way too close to call. Then she came back on 5 min later and said:

-The numbers in New Mexico suddenly just "CHANGED" by 10,000.-

Thats right, CHANGED. Not went up or down, no.... no no no..., but CHANGED. I saw it with my own eyes as well. Bush suddely gained exactly 10,000 votes from thin air with Kerry gaining 0 votes.

Do you remember? It was about 1 am I think. If anyone taped CNN the night of the election, they would have her saying it.

[jsamuel]

141. Sorry, wanted to correct something, it wasn't Judi who made an ass of her

self...

Had to scroll that one back a bit.

[rightfoot]

115. Not everybody has to follow in lockstep with you, Bored

You have your own approach and it seems like you think everyone (Fitrakis, etc) have to do things just as you would do them.

You make an allegation that your "friend" had her life threatened three times. Where is the proof? But you say when Fitrakis doesn't provide proof (on a radio show???) he is just trying to sell a book.

I've been asking some questions, and now I have some questions for you, boredtodeath:

(you go by a screen name here, but you slander people using their real name.)

If you are the person who was the volunteer webmaster for blackboxvoting.org, you are the person who:

Was working with CHOICEPOINT to set up a demonstration hack on Diebold equipment, and you were competing with the blackbox people to show your hack to the congresspeople before they did. When they beat you to it by doing a central tabulator hack in Leon County in front of Corrine Brown and Cynthia McKinney, you cancelled your demonstration.

Then you rescheduled your demo, still working with Choicepoint (?????) and you planned to do it in Ohio in Franklin County. You were going to do this with the Election Science Institute and Yobi Benjamin. For some unexplained reason, you folks were out beating the bushes for $250,000 to do this hack. (????

Then BlackBoxVoting.org beat you to it again, with a memory card hack in Leon County.

Now the Ohio demonstration is cancelled.

Now, Election Science Institute was the group that concluded there was nothing wrong with Ohio. Bob Fitrakis has blasted their study and the credentials of the "analysts" who did the study.

My questions for you:

Is it true that you've been working behind the scenes with Choicepoint? Why do you trust THEM????

Is it true that you have been trying to partner up with Election Science Institute to do a project? Judging by the results (poo-poohing proof of fraud in Ohio), why do you trust THEM????

There has been a lot of slander, of a lot of people, and the untold stories of the stupid turf wars driving all this are pretty interesting. But they really don't help.

Eric

[Boredtodeath]

116. I have no idea what you are talking about!

None.

I have absolutely nothing to do with Choicepoint or Election Science Institute.

[rightfoot]

117. Oh, sorry, that means you're not

Roxanne Jekot

It is Roxanne Jekot who was working with Choicepoint and Election Science Institute. I have confirmed this with four independent sources.

Sorry, I thought you were Roxanne Jekot. All of the info re: supposed demo of a hack originally scheduled for May 4 in Atlanta, tentative re-schedule in Franklin County, Ohio, both demos involving Roxanne Jekot, Yobi Benjamin, Election Science Institute, and at least the Atlanta demo Jekot was negotiating with Choicepoint.

People who undertake politically sensitive investigations are sometimes co-opted. You can tell by the fruits of their labor who they really are.

Election Science Institute was once VoteWatch. In 2002, shortly after Harris exposed the Chuck Hagel ownership of ES&S and the 56 miscounted elections on electronic voting machiens, VoteWatch set up a reporting site. Oddly, the reporting site was trolled, DOS'ed, and ended the day showing almost NO ANOMALIES. The media, which was carefully watching the site, then reported there were no problems with the machines. Harris came onto the site under the moniker "Newswatcher" and populated it with incident after incident showing that there were indeed problems, but not until the VoteWatch site had first been used by the media to debunk problems with electronic voting.

The owner of VoteWatch (which was not a nonprofit at that time) is Steven Hertzberg, whose brother is a Republican in the California legislature who was very closely tied to getting Sequoia touch-screens into California.

VoteWatch became Election Science Institute. Now, let's look at what happened when they came to Ohio. Hertzberg claims to have forged a close relationship with the elections officials from Franklin County -- you know, the county that stinks to high heaven.

Election Science Institute then came forward with a "no problems, move along" report on Ohio.

By their deeds ye shall know them.

I'm just concerned about disinformation, that's all. Anyone saying they need $250,000 just to demonstrate a hack seems disengenuous to me. And any demo hack that depends on Choicepoint to enable it seems like it might be a setup.

[Boredtodeath]

118. Boy, have you got it wrong

I work with Roxanne - as an activist. Helping her to audit the Georgia election records.

Past that, I haven't a clue what the hell you are talking about.

on edit:
I should add - as an UNPAID, VOLUNTEER activist.

[rightfoot]

119. Good, then ask her. Because I have the facts correct

The negotiations between Roxanne Jekot and Choicepoint are first hand information -- i.e., from Jekot herself. She claimed that Choicepoint should be trusted to set up a demo Diebold hack because it was being set up by a top executive at Choicepoint who is a Dem donor.

These are facts. Ask her for her formal comment on them. She has three options:

Refuse to comment
Deny it -- in which case her denial will be forwarded to congressional offices so that they can ascertain credibility for any future "projects"
Confirm it -- in which case she should explain to the public why she trusts Choicepoint.

So, you work with her. You are saying that you were unaware of Jekot's negotiations with Choicepoint, and her proposed project to hack the Diebold system in Atlanta on May 4, later switched to Franklin County Ohio, both connected to Yobi Benjamin and Election Science Institute?

If you were unaware of these things, you'll probably be as curious as I am.

By their deeds ye shall know them

(By the way, can you point me to Jekot's audit of Georgia? Where is the audit posted, and where are the logs and source documents posted? -- Thank you.)

[Boredtodeath]

121. I'll ask

But why don't you give me your name so I can ask her if she spoke to you? PM it to me.

[rightfoot]

124. I will if you will.

PM me with your own name and contact info, then I'll give you mine. But I don't get online very often, so it might be a couple days. (I don't have my own computer).

[samdogmom]

120. Wow!

Now I know why my most of my liberal friends won't believe the election was stolen. We're too smart for our own good. We question everything until we reach a point where it can't be explained. (Sometimes you just have to trust your gut!) I think being a devil's advocate is good, but when we attack the wrong people (i.e. those on our side) we just hurt ourselves. Does anyone truly believe ** got more votes than Kerry?

[rightfoot]

122. The easiest way to discredit the truth is to smear the messenger

on a message board. I agree with you.

There is a small contingent of screen names on this board who are much more focused on discrediting the truth, and killing the messengers, than they are on actually moving the truth forward with public work of their own.

I respect Fitrakis and some of the others who continually get attacked here. It takes guts to do original investigative work, take it public, and take the hits.

I have not seen one PUBLIC bit of original work from the people who keep coming on this board to attack other activists.

By their deeds ye shall know them

[Boredtodeath]

125. You're right

But doing the investigative work is the issue, not going on radio and making powerful accusations you can't prove.

[Boredtodeath]

123. Asking for easily obtained documentation

Is not "question everything until we reach a point where it can't be explained."

If this system was purchased, information about it is easily obtained.

Asking someone to back up powerful allegations with documentation isn't questioning too much.

You know, Fitrakis can say anything if no one ever asks him to prove it.

And not demanding proof of these kind of allegations is exactly why we are dismissed as conspiracy theorists.

[rightfoot]

126. Well, saying someone tried to kill your friend three times

sounds like conspiracy kookiness to me.

I don't think Fitrakis is beholden to a message board on DU to put forth his evidence. As I understand it, he made these statements on radio, not a format where you can post documents.

I heard him quote very specific details in Ohio. Some comes from a source who has recently come forward. It isn't up to Fitrakis to answer to you on this message board. His work has been credible so far (I have his book, do you? It is a telephone book sized compendium of documentation). I'm content to wait until he feels the time is right, and I have no problem with looking for the information on his own site, on his own timeline.

Like I say, it's easy to shoot at those who are sticking their necks out to go public with original investigations. Fitrakis does it under his own name and is willing to take the hits.

Show us, under your own name, what you have gone public with that represents original research. Then you'll get a taste of what it feels like to be in the line of fire.

[Boredtodeath]

134. Roxanne is preparing a response to your accusations

But, since you are quoting conversations with a US Congressperson word for word, they are first trying to determine who's phone you were tapping.

[garybeck]

131. Fitrakis is not making this up

I know this for a fact. I have not heard him say that he knows Blackwell changed anything, only that he had the capacity to.

Fitrakis is a lawyer, protected by attorney-client confidentiality. The information he is releasing is true and he has every right to protect his client's identity.

Deep Throat took dedaces to come forward. It is not necessary for whistleblowers to identify themselves if the information can be verified.

Please stop attacking and accusing Bob Fitrakis, he is one of our leaders and we do not need to divide our community unecessarily.

By the way, this information is NOT in his book. If he were making this up to sell the book, I would think it would be in the book. The person came forward to him after he published the book. It's real.

peace,
Gary

[Boredtodeath]

133. I am NOT attacking Fitrakis

I am attacking the behavior of going public with wild accusations that cannot (yet) be proven.

I AM attacking his method of distributing unsubstantiated rumors.

[meganmonkey]

136. From an outsider's perspective

that looks to be precisely whay YOU are doing -

--going public with wild accusations that can't be proven (e.g. that Fitrakis is only trying to sell books)

and

--distributing unsubstantiated rumors (same example as above)

As in your case with Fitrakis - this doesn't mean I am attacking you, so please don't take it that way. It just means that there seems to be a level of hypocrisy that makes it difficult to take your accusations seriously, regardless of what one thinks of Fitrakis.

[Boredtodeath]

137. You're entitled to your opinion

As am I.

Even IF mine disagrees with the "prevailing wisdom."

[garybeck]

138. they are not unsubstantiated rumors n/t

[Boredtodeath]

139. So that means you have the proof?

Could you point me to it? It's been posted at Fitrakis' site?

If not, it's unsubstantiated rumor.