What is a paper receipt from a voting machine and what happens to it?

[Virginian]

If a voting machine were to give a paper receipt, would you
A. Put it in your pocket and take it home?
B. Put it in a ballot box to be counted later? If so, wouldn't that be a machine printed ballot and not a receipt?

I am confused by the term and would like to know what "Paper receipt" means to other DU'ers.

[Warpy]

1. A wouldn't do a damned thing

since it's very easy to program a machine to print a receipt while either deleting or flipping your actual vote.

B is the only option that makes sense, since it supplies the election board with a way to spot check polling sites and/or do a recount.

Of course, the right wing will eventually swallow the A option. They'll fight the B option tooth and nail.

[dryan]

2. Cannot speak....

for all voting machines but we have optiscan machines in Orange County, Florida (we have had them for years). If there is a problem with a ballot, it is printed on both the master roll (which stays in tact) and another roll which tells the Clerk and Facilitator what the problem was with the ballot -- i.e., overvoting, etc. There is also a computer pack within the machine that cannot be accessed until after the election is over and all the votes are tallied. It is a very complicated device. The pack is taken out after three tapes are printed--one goes on the door for the public, one goes in a pack with all the other papers (i.e., unused torn up ballots) and one goes with the pack.

[In Truth We Trust]

3. Paper ballots NOW!!! Hand counts NOW!!!

This is the ONLY method to insure that widespread fraWd can not occur AGAIN.

[Virginian]

11. Where do you find the manpower to do it?

I can't speak for other areas, but in my county, it is hard to find people to work at the polls. We have to be there at 5:00 am and do not leave until all the voters in line at 7:00 pm have voted and all the votes for that precinct are counted. Employers do not give leave like they do for Jury duty. Anyone with a job has to take a vacation day to work the polls.

Last November, we had around 3,000 voters. The ballot had, in addition to the presidential race, three bond issues, two changes to the state constitution and the race for our congressional representative. This time, we did not have a Senate race or state or local race as well.

How accurate do you think the results would have been if we had to stay there and count the 3,000 ballots for each race or bond issue? Most of us had not had more than bathroom breaks and five or ten minute breaks to gobble down the meals we brought.

Sign up in your area to work the polls and then decide if you still want hand counted paper ballots. The process could use your help. All you have to be is a registered voter. Maybe if you and thousands of others helped out at the polls, we could have the manpower for paper ballots and hand counts. Participate in the process and then, after learning how it works now, you may be able to suggest a better way.

[In Truth We Trust]

13. first I DID work the polls and secondly it was done for centuries before

the advent of "technology". It is done in virtually every progressive gov't of Europe. Switzerland is a perfect model to check out. Your argument holds no water. There are solutions to each "problem" you descibe.
It has been done.
It is being done.
It should be done here; AGAIN.

[Virginian]

16. I am open for suggestions. Where does the manpower come from?

How many voters did you have when you worked? Probably not 3,000. Tell me how YOU think it can be done.
What area of the country are you in? How did you handle long lines in the presidential election?

Basically, if we make people work longer days to count the votes, we won't have as many volunteers as we do now.
The senior citizens from the senior center volunteered the first time I worked. It was too long a day for them and they haven't offered again. I say volunteer, but the election officers are paid $100 for the day.

If the votes are not counted at the precinct before changing hands, there is a window of opportunity for mischief. We count the votes at the precinct, call the county with our results and post the results on the door for all to examine. Then one person carries the paperwork to the county headquarters where they verify the math and post the results on their website. There is no possibility for the ballots to get lost before they are counted. After the election, the pollbooks are examined by the state and by both parties and audits are run on the results.

How was it done in your jurisdiction?

[dryan]

15. My expereince working at polls...

I began working at the polls here in Orange County in 1996. I have always been interested in politics and voters rights but I had never done it. I did a voters registration drive for Business & Professional Women's Club at the Fashion Square in Orlando and the Supervisor of Elections had a booth next to us recruiting people to work at the polls. My husband was out of work at the time and I thought it would be good for him to be involved in something like this. He was pretty depressed from being out of work for almost a year and also because he had just been diagnosed with diabetes. Anyway, he went down and took the pre-test in a week (to see if you can read and write English proficiently, can take simple instructions, follow directions, etc.) and he was asked to be a Clerk. He said he would do it but only if I could work with him (how is that for payback) and I became the Oath Person (they don't have this position anymore). THis is the person that works with voters that have problems such as not being on the rolls, recently registered etc. We worked in the governor's, runoff for state cabinet (we had 9 voters!) and the presidential. We have worked in every election since.

[SophieZ]

4. Please -- let's ban the word "receipt" in this context -- it just confuses

It is NOT a receipt.

Ever.

No one ever takes it home.

Electronic voting without any paper is often flawed, and unrecountable -- you can't reconstruct it.

A paper BALLOT or paper CONFIRMATION of the vote would be put (by the voter or automatically) into a locked box. The idea is that for random recounts, the paper would be the "sure thing" -- the thing the voter checked himself or herself to make sure it is accurate.

The beauty of paper is that, whether it is printed by machine or scrawled by pen, it is difficult to change the vote.

The vulnerability of electronics is that it is extraordinarily easy to change the vote, without a trace. Central tabulators are being found amazingly vulnerable to having an outsider or insider change the vote totals without detection.

Paper ballots counted by hand by human beings in front of cameras, the public and the media in each precinct would go a long way toward restoring honest transparent election results.

[In Truth We Trust]

8. Welcome to DU SophieZ- Great post!

[MsUnderstood]

5. for computer voting to work

For computer voting to work, no tabulation should be kept in the computer.

The initial machine should accept your votes and print them out (like a typewriter). It should not be connected to any network or save any data. You can then verify you have chosen the correct selections.

Then the print out should be placed in a ballot box. The ballot box should then be taken to a second machine which scans the votes and counts them.

This prevents HACKING (people connecting to voter machines at the polling place and adding votes), MISREPRESENTATION OF VOTING (you see you voted for Candidate A on the screen but your vote is saved as Candidate B, SOFTWARE DECEIT (the machine stops counting votes for candidate A after 1000 votes are reached), etc at the polling place.

Ofcourse, it does not prevent the SECOND machine from reading your vote for candidate A and choosing candidate B, but it would allow a HAND RECOUNT if someone believed the second machine had a malfunction such as the one mentioned above.

By not leaving a paper trail there is no way to perform any kind of hand recount that is required in almost all states when certain situations arose.

[eomer]

12. Another advantage of your approach

is that it is understandable by almost anyone. The voter uses a touchscreen computer as a fancy kind of ballot marker. The result produced is a piece of paper that is a straightforward record of the votes. All the mysterious workings of the touchscreen machine are now irrelevant because the result is a concrete object you can hold and verify. If you don't agree with the votes on the paper then you destroy it and start over. Only when you agree with the paper do you move to the next step and deposit it in the ballot box.

No more wondering whether all those times you pushed Kerry and the Bush light came on were actually counted even though they shouldn't have been.

[endarkenment]

6. Ideally Both A&B

The machine prints out a record of your vote. You get one copy, another stays with the machine until it is collected by the polling people. You can visually confirm that the poll copy is identical to your copy at the time you are confirming your vote. Neither copy identifies you, but your copy can be matched to the poll copy at anytime in the future. You are under no obligation to keep your copy.

Is it 100% fraud proof: no. It just makes election fraud more difficult. Right now massive election fraud is demonstrably easy to do.


I think ATM receipts already work this way. It ain't rocket science, it ain't expensive. The only excuse for 'no paper trail' is 'we want to steal elections'.

Optical scan paper ballots are also pretty darn good at being accurate, inexpensive, and difficult to cheat.

[bullimiami]

7. jeb has been making it illegal to even check the paper trail at all.

and if that isnt suspicious tell me what is.


the only way is to
have a hard copy of the vote, verified by the user.
put into a ballot box.
random counts of the paper votes are used to verify the machine counts, i think something like 3%.
if there is any discrepancy or challange the paper ballots are the legal vote and are counted.

[jarnocan]

9. Verified Vote/ verified elections HR550

<http://vvlobbydays.blogspot.com/> You can link to everything you wanted to know here. Rush Holt's HR550 the gold standard of bills os far - supported by Verified Voting, Vote Trust USA, Common Cause and Voter's Unite. etc. You can link to them all here and see some nice pics of the Verified Voting Lobby Days, Or go right to his web site for some easy to folow info. <http://holt.house.gov/issues2.cfm?id=5996>
We need verified Elections- you get to see your actual vote and it goes a container and becomes official ballot of record,- that is safely contained. You don't take it with you because that can lead to many other bad problems- selling votes intimidation etc.

this system can work with optical scan machines- also.

[Virginian]

10. It needs to be printed with INK,, not on thermal paper.

Thermal paper would only end up giving you a vapor paper verification. It fades after a few months.

[riqster]

14. 'Paper Trail' is a BS term

Used by the ignorant and the corrupt.

The ignorant believe that any piece of paper has the power to make elections honest and so do not bother about the details.

The corrupt hope we will be ignorant.

[garybeck]

17. this may help

Understanding the difference between paper ballots and paper audit trails

March 16, 2005
Gary Beckwith



With all the pending legislation in Congress designed to fix our electoral system, it is important for concerned citizens to learn and understand just what the bills would require and what they wouldn't.

One key issue is how the various bills attempt to prevent fraud by requiring a "paper trail" on computerized voting machines. In order to understand just how the bills accomplish this, and judge whether or not they solve the problem, it is important to recognize the difference between a Voter-Verified Paper Ballot (VVPB) and a Voter-Verifield Paper Audit Trail (VVPAT).


rest of article:
http://www.solarbus.org/election/articles/0313-ballots.shtml