BBV "Paper Ballots Hand Counted" only way to secure elections

[kster]

(sorry if this is a dupe)

Other issues that are rather intractible, with open source, are the issues of truly keeping ordinary citizens in control of their own ballot counting. There are many ways to spin and maneuver a computerized system, even one with honest software. Also, all computer-based systems present a moving target, constantly changing -- no sooner do you spot one problem and mobilize the immense effort it takes to tackle it than a switcheroo is pulled and you have to start all over again.

Paper ballots, hand counted at the polling place (NOT centrally counted, for the paper ballot playground for fraud lies in the transportation and central counting methods) -- well, if you get precinct-based hand-counts of the paper ballots, with methodology encouraging as many eyes as possible on the counting, you end up with a fairly stationary target, and one that is difficult to tamper with except on a small localized scale.

Like "VVPAT" -- "Open Source" is not a solution. Very tricky, and absolutely a moving target that no one has put together correctly yet.

Bev Harris

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/72/6758.html?1119906902

[bettyellen]

1. yeah it's a dupe. funny, i feel duped too- by BBV!

whatever happened to their financial disclosure for last year?

[kster]

2. Is there a particular

reason I should be looking for their financial statements, in the middle of my election fraud investigation.

[tommcintyre]

9. No, you should continue doing EXACTLY what you are doing, and...

don't let ANYTHING distract you.

[meganmonkey]

3. ...

:popcorn:

[kster]

4. .

:rofl:

[kster]

11. Need some more

:popcorn: in case you run out.

[autorank]

5. Paper ballots counted by citizens with observers, preserved.

I agree, let's stop outsourcing our democracy to right wing corporatoins and return it to the people. Who cares if it takes longer? If current poll workers or election officials bitch, fire them. There are plenty of volunteers who will do it as their patriotic duty!

[Andy_Stephenson]

6. Why do BBV Proxies feel compelled to post

Ms Harris reports here?

Wasn't it Ms Harris who recently donated money to OVC to buy back her good name. Now she says it is too risky? Ms Harris is sure all over the map these days. Funny...Legtimate solutions start appearing and Ms "Chicken Little" Runs around screaming the sky is falling. I have to ask myself why? Hand Counted all paper will not happen in the next election cycle as bad as I Ms Harris or any other American would like it to. I smell something fishy and it is wafting up from renton,

[kster]

7. Maybe, maybe not

Certainly not with this attitude!

"Hand Counted all paper will not happen in the next election cycle as bad as I Ms Harris or any other American would like it to".


I won't comment on anything else in your post because to me it is background noise.

[tommcintyre]

12. Andy, can you give us a run-down on these guys - C/B hearing?

With your experience, you gave us some great background information on those panelists for the last hearing. So, if you're up to it, it would be great to get your feedback on this group who will be testifying on Thursday in Houston.

Thanks Andy - I hope you're feeling better.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x381183

[garybeck]

16. what is a "Proxy"??

prox·y
n. pl. prox·ies
A person authorized to act for another; an agent or substitute.


That is ridiculous to say that anyone who posts an article by Bev Harris is a proxy for her.

Kster is not a proxy.

You obviously have some problems with Bev and we all understant that. But there are some of us, actually many of us, who are still willing to read her articles and try to evaluate them objectively. People should be able to do their own research an not be attacked. I think you should not personally attack people who are willing to look at her information and discuss it.

I guess John Gideon is a Bev proxy too, because he posts some of her articles in the Voters Unite news?

And the Scoop, which was the first to post John Simon's exit poll data, they are a Bev proxy too?

And all the movies - both Votergates, Invisible Ballots, and Electile Dysfunction - they all are proxies for Bev?

And all the people who organized the teachins in California and Ohio, they are proxies for Bev too?

And I guess I am a proxy too because I have posted some of her articles as well.

I'm not going to engage in a big debate about Bev. You are entitled to feel the way you do based on your experience with her, and I don't question the validity of your feelings. But I don't think it is right for you to condemn people and call them names just because they post an article by her.

If you want to criticize something, then criticize Bev's article. Pick it apart. Point out all the things that are incorrect or inconsistent. That's the best way to make your point. But attacking someone for posting it is not fair.

I for one have heard it all from both sides, and I think far too much time has been wasted on the debate, and it actually hurts our cause. People waste time talking about Bev when we should be working on projects and research to restore democracy in our country.

I for one am still willing to read her articles and research and I find some of it is valuable. In fact the article about opscans has enabled me to engage in a very valuable discussion with my state's Director of Elections.

Peace,
Gary

[NC Beach Girl]

8. ?

If you're going to post every inane comment that Bev has made on her heavily edited little message board...why not post the ones that are funnier, like the rant about how other people steal her work. Hypocrisy is hilarious! :)

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/show.cgi?tpc=72&post=7349#POST7349

As one of her own board members (Trent) asked in that thread after reading her ridiculous statements:

"Are we in this for personal gratification or are we here to solve a problem?"

I think it is clear why Bev is in it.

[kster]

10. Post this over

here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=104

and I'll come and comment. Because this certainly has nothing to do with my election fraud investigation.

[NC Beach Girl]

13. oh!

So YOU are investigating election fraud?

That's great, then why don't you post about YOUR investigation and stop posting everything that BEV posts? I think that more people would pay attention and not suspect that you are just a proxy regurgitating everything she tells you to post here.

Thanks!

[kster]

14. Again

Post this over
here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

and I'll come and comment. Because this certainly has nothing to do with my election fraud investigation.

[autorank]

15. KICK

:kick:

[kster]

17. kick.nt

[Yellow Horse]

18. "Paper Ballots Hand Counted". Fine idea, but NOT REALISTIC now.

Ain't gonna happen in the foreseeable future; certainly not in my neck of the woods and probably not in Bev's either.

Look at the way King County WA is heading, and it's not toward 100% hand counts, that's for sure!

[kster]

19. Very REALISTIC !

if we keep spreading the truth about what those machines are actually there for, Paper Ballots will prevail.

Keep getting the truth out to the people, once we are in the majority you will see how fast them voting machines get wheeled out to the curb.

Paper Ballots don't take that long to print.

[Yellow Horse]

20. "you will see how fast them voting machines get wheeled"........

"....out to the curb"    Yeah, for curbside voting by disabled people on paperless DREs.

We are up against a lot of issues besides just "getting the truth out" and printing ballots.

For example a lot of voters don't understand that there's any problem at all with DREs (even paperless ones) and a lot of election directors (even Dems) refuse to consider VVPB let alone 100% hand-counted paper. And these politically connected election directors (some even appointed by people like Blackwell) realistically are NOT going to be kicked out anytime soon. Then there' s the blind & disabled advocates who are funded by Diebold and others and they are painting anybody who is for paper ballots as being totally against the rights of handicapped people.

This is a complicated issue and in most places we will be very lucky if we can get VVPB with any kind of audit on machines in time for the HAVA deadline, as opposed to being stuck on paperless DRE for the next 10 years or more until this batch of machines totally wears out.

Is s Bev Harris close to getting 100% hand-counted paper in King County before the HAVA Deadline to choose voting systems 1/1/06? Are YOU close in YOUR County?? I don't think so.

[kster]

21. Take them blinders off

When I said "spreading the truth" I meant to EVERYONE, When I said wheeled to the curb, I think you thought I only meant two wheel hand trucks and four wheel dollies.

My friend after I explained to her about the machines is pissed, she said she would help us wheel them to the curb, the only thing is, we would have to put it on her lap , because she is in a wheel chair,

I'm confident she is not taking it to the curb to vote on it.

[shance]

22. Power mongers did not get where they are asking for permission

or for bread crumbs. Nor will we. If we continue to behave like a grateful abused spouse and not demand what is our RESPONSIBILITY as mature adult citizens to demand, we will lose every chance we have to remain a representative government.

If we ask for remedies that do nothing to remedy the situation, we will lose everything. The longer these machines are allowed to be in use, the more elections they rig, and the further immersed in a fascist government we become. To the point, that we at some point, will never be able to return.

Is that convincing enough to show you why we must outlaw these machines?

[Cookie wookie]

23. Right on. n/t

[kster]

24. Your are right its

time to turn this blog around, I have Democratic and Republican Friends that may not always agree with me on everything, but all have said, if what I have said about the voting machines is correct, they agree 100% that the machines need to go.

The Dem's and Repugs didn't steal the elections, The neocons and the voting machines stole the elections. Its not time to play ball with the neocons and voting machine companies, its time to take the ball away.

Paper Ballots Hand Counted.


Keep Spreading the truth.............

[kster]

25. Andy didn't care

for me, and I know he didn't like Mrs. Harris but to this day, I will never forget Andy's response to me one time, it was within the response to me, and I will always respect Andy for putting it in,The part in parenthesis.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy_Stephenson (1000+ posts)
Response to Original message
6. Why do BBV Proxies feel compelled to post
Ms Harris reports here?

Wasn't it Ms Harris who recently donated money to OVC to buy back her good name. Now she says it is too risky? Ms Harris is sure all over the map these days. Funny...Legtimate solutions start appearing and Ms "Chicken Little" Runs around screaming the sky is falling. I have to ask myself why? Hand Counted all paper will not happen in the next election cycle

(as bad as I Ms Harris or any other American would like it to.)

I smell something fishy and it is wafting up from renton,

[EFerrari]

26. Unlike that psycho Bev Harris, Andy had a generous heart.

And I'm glad he probably never knew how she encouraged his stalkers to the very end.

:hi:

[kster]

27. Yes, Andy

did have a genorous heart.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

28. Yes, he did. And that's how Bev Harris roped him into her

chaos. That's how she ropes a lot of people into her machinations. She specializes in idealistic people who are willing to work and who are willing to fork over credit for their work for "the cause". As most of us are, really.

Problem is, the "cause" always turns out to be Bev Harris. I hope her next victim is reading this.

[kster]

30. So what do you think

about the ballot scanners should we keep them or should we fight to return back to PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNTED.


I think PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNTED AND RECORDED AT THE PRECINCT LEVEL.

[autorank]

29. kster, Great Point -- contribution. KICK

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

I would have recommended but I've been involved with some state based grassroots stuff, so I appologize for the over sight.

That's right---PAPER BALLOTS---stop the arcane debates. Get a bunch of people counting and watching, and we're home free.

Keep reminding us, we can't hear this too often.

[Fly by night]

31. Bev who?

[kster]

32. No, Bev Harris

What do you think about the ballot scanners should we keep them or should we fight to return back to PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNTED.


I think PAPER BALLOTS HAND COUNTED AND RECORDED AT THE PRECINCT LEVEL.

[troubleinwinter]

33. Voter Verified Paper Ballots, proper auditing, and random recounts

are reliable and practical. Demanding 100% hand counts guarantees resistance / noncooperation by financially challenged elections offices, and is bound to sink our efforts.

The "all or nothing" approach will likely get you the "nothing" option. VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS is the most important aspect. It enables auditing and hand recounts.

Note the last paragraph:


The following was written by Andy April 29, 2005. It is a draft, about which he said, "Just putting thoughts on paper right now. So in case something happens to me, god forbid...I have it down for others in the future."

What a ballot is: It is not merely a piece of paper, it is me...it is my voice. Each of us should guard it more than we would our most prized or precious possession. That ballot protects our other possessions. Without it you have no say. Over the last couple of years I have been adamant about the need for a voter verified paper ballot. It has been the driving force behind what I have done and will continue to do. To me, my ballot is the most sacred sacrament of the secular religion we call Democracy.

I have traveled around this country meeting with Election Officials such as Mischelle Townsend. I sent her into a tailspin when I put a camera in her face. Mischelle Townsend as you remember was the County Registrar in Riverside CO. Ca. Mischelle is a drippy sweet kind of woman but underneath beats the heart of a true viper. Mischelle has unwavering faith in Sequoia Voting Systems. She is a huge proponent of paperless DRE's. Where is Mischelle now? Well last I heard she was at home tending to her father-in-law's knee. She spent her last day at work holed up in her office with the door closed to avoid cameras. David Elliot is another viper. David was the head honcho over at NASED. He was the one person most responsible for allowing DRE’s to be approved for use. David was another really bad guy. He told me that he would have liked to have been able to talk less formally “without the camera.” I am sure he would have. But hey…I wanted to keep him honest. David retired from service to the state to attend to a “nervous condition.” Another piece of work was Scott Konopasek. Scott was the Registrar in San Bernardino Co Ca. Scott was the man responsible for DRE’s in two places, Snohomish WA and San Bernardino CA. Scott once remarked that Bev and I were waging “Jihad”, but not in a “Palestine Israel sense of the word, but in more of a Northern Ireland sense of the word.” Excuse me but WTF? Scott is now a “consultant” I worry when former elections officials become consultants. The one thing all these people have in common is an undying faith in paperless voting. I would say that they were all crooked but that would get me sued so I won’t say it. But I had no faith that they were protecting the ballot.

Now I know that I have gotten off track here and talked about all the bad guys in elections but there are people protecting your ballot. Some examples are Freddie Oakley of Yolo County California, Ion Sancho of Leon County Florida and Kevin Shelly and Julie Anne Kempf formerly of King County Washington. These people are examples of people working hard to protect our right to vote and in the case of Julie Anne losing their job in the process. I have talked here about the people but not ballots up to this point. There is a reason for that. The first group of people is out to get your ballot the second wants to preserve your ballot.

There are currently many definitions and thoughts on the subject of ballots. Some would argue that paper records or paper trails can serve the same purpose as a paper ballot. All legislation I see coming from Washington these days talk of Paper records/trails that are kept in a similar manner as ballots. They are to be the official record of the election and are to be used in case of manual recounts. As an example of how hard this would be, let’s look at Diebold’s VVPAT. A long register receipt type “paper trail” is printed. Granted it is better than what does not come from their DRE’s now but it would be very difficult to “hand” count. So why spend money on it, if it does not really do what we want it to do? It is similar but not the same as a ballot. Imagine a 75 year old trying to read the small type on that paper trail. Some, such as our first group of people would argue that an electronic version of the ballot is ok and perfectly acceptable. David Dill explains that voting on DRE’s is like handing your ballot to a man behind a curtain, telling him how you want to vote, he fills in your choices and you never see the ballot again. This is UNACCEPTABLE! Our ballot must be human readable we must be able to discern our own choices and not leave it to a machine interface. Now this is not always possible as in the case of the blind but there are technologies that help the blind to vote in secret that produce a ballot. Equipment such as Automark produces an optical scan or human readable ballot. The ballot is printed on a heavy weight 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper with standard markings. Any human or optical scan machine can read these ballots and they are ideal for hand counts should the need arise.

Now there are many people that say we should be all hand counted paper all the time. In an ideal world we would do that. But realistically that is not going to happen. Elections offices in most jurisdictions, if not all, are under funded. Elections officials struggle with tight budgets and in most cases do a damned good job with what they have. Not all elections officials are bad and many want to run good clean elections. Keeping the system honest is up to us. With proper auditing and truly random recounts, optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all, our votes are more precious than gold.

~Andy Stephenson 4/29/2005

[kster]

35. These common sense rules

worked so well in 2000,2002 and 2004. Maybe when we are writing the new and improved rules we could Capitalize some letters and highlight some full sentences that will get them to abide by the rules.

In the new guide lines we could tell NM, no fair clearing all the voting machines before we can recount. Ohio we can specify no fair calling "terra alerts" or locking the media out of the recounts.

Florida and Georgia we would need a whole chapter on them.

Hopefully by then Landshark will be able to get them to open up the machines so the experts can take a look.

Maybe stronger text will get them to play fair, I just ain't buying it.

Paper Ballots Hand Counted And Recorded By The People.

[troubleinwinter]

34. 'NO Bev Harris' is my thinking, too.

[salin]

38. I doubt that will ever happen (so time consuming in this ever "efficiency"

conscience society) - in terms of ALL votes being counted by hand.

Thus - focusing on verifiability of votes ALONG with confidence in the technology (esp the central tabulator) is, imo, the realistic way to go.

Thus by extension - the optical scan system - those in which the actual ballots are kept within the machine (and thus "hand countable") - are the way to go - with the major focus of activism being on accuracy and transparency in HOW those votes are tabulated - and a mechanism to set off 'Hand Counts' (e.g., random checks of real ballots compared to the tabulated count) to signal where hand-counts should occur.

[kster]

39. Sounds good to me

the balls in their court ,get them to open up the machines immediately, so we the people can start the verification process.

[merh]

40. Get the BBV folks to actually do more than just

"civil disobedience" stunts when the votes are being counted. Maybe if they had a lawyer with them before the fellow entered the room where the votes where being counted, the lawyer could have filed for a TRO shutting down the counting until they complied with the law.

A little common sense and planning would be nice. Not reactive behavior but proactive behavior.

:hi:

VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS!

[kster]

41. You need a lawyer to watch

the votes being counted. "Message to self" 2008 get lawyer so I will be able to watch votes being counted.

SCANNING BALLOTS GOT TO GO, WE THE PEOPLE WILL COUNT THE VOTES.

[merh]

42. Note to you.

BBV knew that this was likely to happen, that they didn't think in advance and have a lawyer on hand to file the pleadings to stop the count until it was done in compliance with the laws was STUPID.

The organization would prefer to stoop to dramatics rather than do something that might actually bring about results.

This was one election. They could have set the tone, developed legal precedent. Don't be foolish. If they would actually DO SOMETHING instead of talk the talk, then maybe folks would find their organization effective and credible.

They collect money, they profess to be experts, yet they have not provided ANY RESULTS.

So glad to see your reply is so adult. :hi:

[merh]

43. And what I find incredibly odd about your response is you

take it so personally. Do you work for BBV?

Just wondering? :shrug:

Very curious indeed. :freak:

[kster]

44. The voter verification process can't get started

unless the voting machine companies open up those machines immediately, how do you suppose we can get them to open them up to our experts, so we can work to wards VVPB, because if they don't start by opening them up how can we verify anything?

[merh]

45. How about lobbying the state legislators to enact laws

that require it?????

How about having lawyers available to make sure that the counting is done in accordance with existing laws and not stooping to dramatics and "civil disobedience" when it isn't.

How many county clerks have you talked to? How many of those clerks are willing to go back to hand counts?

The money involved, the time it entails, the delays and lack of control of the ballots are all nightmares that the clerks have to face when conducting elections. To think that because you say "hand counts" makes it legitimate and/or workable is just silly.

And you never responded to my post. It was just so odd how you took it personally that I made the comment about BBV. Do you work for them?

[kster]

46. VVPB sends the wrong message

the voter verifies the paper ballot, but can't verify the machine they scan it in to, or watch that its being counted. VVPB does absolutely nothing to secure the vote totals, what it does is give the (not in the know ) voters a false sense of security. Nothing more.

An answer to your question.

I don't ask personal questions and I don't answer them. I'm not here to learn every detail about Bev Harris's life, when I make a thread or post in one, and people come in to sling mud at BBV instead of discussing content of the thread it sickens me. It makes me think they are up to something.

[merh]

47. I have not slung diddle at you.

I asked a legitimate question given your response. You replied as if you were a part of bbv, go back and read your reply again.

The voters don't get to watch their votes being counted, it is impossible to assume that they ever could. Have you ever been involved in the counting of ballots? Have you ever been involved in the COUNTYWIDE hand counts? I have, years ago and it was a very time consuming (costly), laborous effort. The security involved, the "control" of the ballots, the man power required makes it difficult to do and most counties that do not hand count now would never agree to go back to it. That is why what Diebold has to offer is so tempting to them. Less manpower required, less money involved each election, less worry about the security of the "ballots", less concern about the warehousing or storage of the ballots. I could go on and on and on.

Go back and review the history of elections. Do some legal research of the cases that actually deal with election contests. If you do that, you will learn that hand counts allow for "ballot stuffing" or corruptly slipping in fake ballots into the mix.

Take the time to learn what you can about the history of the process, the costs associated with conducting elections and the evolution of elections and maybe, just maybe you will learn that your "hand counts" is not practical and professing it as the only answer is going to get you nowhere. In other words, you are wasting your breath.

Know what is needed by the people who have to conduct elections, know the costs involved, know why opti-scanners were ever purchased, then you will see that one of the answers to the problems that exist now is getting legislation passed on the state level that requires for the proper calibration and inspection of the machines.

:hi:

[merh]

48. Voters don't watch their votes being counted now.

That you use would write "the voter ... can't .... watch that its being counted" illustrates how little you really know about what is entailed in conducting an election. As a matter of fact, the voter can't "verify" the person doing the hand counts, so your voter verification of hand counts is impossible as well as impractical.

With proper auditing and truly random recounts, optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all, our votes are more precious than gold.

:hi:

[kster]

49. Merh, you are far to intelligent to believe what you are saying.

By reading your post I can tell that. Good night.

[merh]

50. That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.

I believe everything that I have posted. That you cannot counter any of what I posted is obvious, given your half hearted attempt to compliment as you duck and run! :hi:

[EFerrari]

51. What you call "mudslinging" might also be called

holding Bev Harris accountable for her very public and horrendously destructive behavior which has had terrible consequences for both our activists, our community, and our project.

I'm up to that. And until Bev Harris comes clean, if that is possible which I doubt, she and her proxies are not welcome. We have work to do. And that work is not fleecing our community, stealing their work or smearing them.

So, if you want to talk problems or issues, that's fine. If you want to front for Bev Harris, this might not be the best place to do that.

[NC Beach Girl]

53. funny

"I don't ask personal questions and I don't answer them."


When did that policy about not asking personal questions start?

It seems like just a few weeks ago you were asking me personal questions in a paranoid-psycho-Bev Harris-esque way and insinuating that I'm something other than a pissed off former donor to BBV who is disgusted with Bev's con game and absolutely SICK of her sycophant cheerleaders and multiple pseudonyms here at DU.

Oh yeah...that's because it was just a few weeks ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=381989&mesg_id=382020

Isn't it inconvenient how posting things on the internet can catch up with you when you decide to contradict yourself or change your story? You should ask Bev about how to deal with that, it happens to her all the time. :)

[kster]

54. Post it

I would hope if you thought someone at the DU may be in trouble, you would say the same thing to them. That link you posted, that thread was a lot of fun, oh the good ol days. So should we get rid of those corrupt scanners,and go to paper ballots.


"NC Beach Girl
tell us who sent you to do their dirty work. Because you seem like a fine young lady. That somehow got involved, with someones b*llsh*t in all of this. PM someone, its easy "

[NC Beach Girl]

56. ?

It's nice to see that you have no problem acknowledging that you asked personal questions even though you have claimed earlier in this thread that you never do that. Of course, you claim that was back in the "good ol days" and only because you thought that I was in trouble.

Is it true that the "good ol days" were way back on July 2nd, 2005? And you really thought I was in trouble because I posted a thread about Bev making a false claim about this forum being shut down? That's a logical conclusion, isn't it? I point out your hero's idiocy, therefore I must be in trouble. :eyes:

I will agree that if I thought someone at DU may be in trouble I would try to help..for instance I have tried to help people on DU financially when they needed it for medical reasons - I'm sure you remember Andy, who your dear hero spent a lot of time trying to defame and destroy while he was fighting for his life. On the other hand, I also believe that helping to PREVENT people from getting into trouble is very useful. I would warn people to STEER CLEAR OF A KNOWN LYING CON ARTIST who trolls DU for donations and to NOT GIVE HER ANY MONEY every chance I could. You clearly don't feel the same.

The bottom line is that you DO ask personal questions (generally wrapped in an insinuation of some sort), you just don't like to answer any. It's a nice tactic if you can get away with it, but don't preach on about how you like to stay on the issues and stay away from personal stuff, it's certainly not true and easily proven by me and several others who you have gone after for daring to try warn others from enriching anyone involved with BBV any further.

:hi:

By the way...scanners already use paper ballots last I checked?

[kster]

57. I'm not sure what

you are after and I am to tired to figure it out, but I still luv ya. Heres to ya NC Beach Girl :toast:

[autorank]

36. Kick

:kick: because it makes perfect sense.

[kster]

37. Thanks Autorank

I think it makes sense to, we shouldn't be fooled again in to believing the Corporate vote counting machines will ever play by the rules. 2000,2002 and now 2004 "Three strikes their out".

[kster]

52. -

:hi:

[diva77]

55. IRV feasibility with hand counting?

Will someone explain how IRV would work with handcounting? Some people think handcounting and IRV are mutually exclusive.

[kster]

58. kick.nt