CONSISTENT Voting Patterns in Ohio Counties-hmmh...

[mod mom]

Some interesting info that was forward to me:

We have been crunching voting results in Ohio and have discovered the following CONSISTENT PATTERN:

First, using congressional voting, we divided Ohio counties into 2 groups:
Group 1 - counties where congressional votes heavily favored Republicans;
Group 2 - counties where congressional votes were close or heavily favored Democrats.

In Group 1 counties, the number of ballots with no presidential vote were consistently 300 in 10,000 (3%).
In Group 2 counties, the number of ballots with no presidential vote were consistently 600 in 10,000 (6%).

That's 3% additional ballots without a presidential vote recorded ONLY in counties that were not reliably Republican!

We are beginning to see this SAME CONSISTENT PATTERN in other states.

More to come, when the analysis is complete."

http://www.cybersapian.com/

[Benhurst]

1. Thank God we live in a democracy and can vote these crooks

out! Vote? hmmm ... . Welcome to Bush America.

[Botany]

3. Nice catch

You don't suppose Blackwell having access to the central tabulators
could effect this?

You are right about other states too. In Colorado about 100,000 people
voted for a liberal hispanic to be their senator but turned around and
voted for a conservative white male as President?

[mod mom]

5. No way. Mr Blackwell is a devout Christian. He would never lower his

high standards by stealing votes, disenfranchising low income African Americans, setting up caging techniques or the likes. How could you even question his standards?

What is up with the Dem leadership (with a few honorable exceptions, of course)? How can they keep ignoring the multitude of evidence and allow a war criminal to steal another election? If it's to protect the economy-come on guys-look how they are raping and pillaging the coffers to fill their fat cat pockets!

[Botany]

8. He used to be a democrat and liberal too.

Denny White and company must go! They are spineless.

[mod mom]

10. He went to the same school as me, Xavier in Cinci, and I read that he

was so distraught over the death of MLK, that the school sent him to the funeral. Must have made a profound impact on him!

[riqster]

2. Rock on!

Can't wait for more.

[lvx35]

4. The infuriating thing is that you don't know.

There can be all sorts of reasons for wierd trends...After all, the repug TV/radio/press campaign focused on smashing Kerry personally, not all dems/liberals. But the main thing is that you can never know, because it has been proven that these machines aren't secure...So until they can do that, its all just guesswork as to whether or not it was rigged.

[mod mom]

6. Don't know? How do you explain this one:

[lvx35]

11. Explain what exactly?

With 33% of precints reporting, Kerry was in the lead? What's the issue?

[mod mom]

14. Check out Lucas County. Look at the Kerry/Cobb votes. Cobb ended up

with only 192 votes (supposedly) in the entire state of Ohio yet in this Diebold Optiscan county Kerry has 0 votes-hmmh.

[lvx35]

17. Oh yeah.

I remember around the election last in 2004, DU broke a story (which originally turned me on to this site) about 4000 extra votes for Bush...It got released to the mainstream press and they reported it. Yep, its all horrendously fishy.

[mod mom]

18. that was Gahanna at a Christian Mega church in Franklin County OH with

a mere 3,893 extra votes for bu$h. they said it was an error with someone using a lap top.

[Botany]

7. No guesswork!

In 19 of 88 counties an unknown black democratic women with no money
and no ads got more votes then John Kerry as she was running
for supreme court ..... her Republican counter part got much less then *.
And he won the race too.

"its all just guesswork as to whether or not it was rigged." That sir, was
fraud. end of story.

[lvx35]

12. Rephrase

"In 19 of 88 counties an unknown black democratic women with no money
and no ads got more votes then John Kerry"

try rephrasing

"In 19 of 88 counties an unknown black democratic woman with no orchestrated multi-million dollar smear campaign against her got more votes than John Kerry."

[mod mom]

9. Check out this info on just one Dem County in Ohio:

By the early nineties, Tom W. Noe had a net worth of 2.4 million dollars and his coin business had sales over $6.4 million. Then the Blade reports:

By 1992, a year after his business had suffered what he called “a huge loss,” he figured he was more than $16,500 in debt.
As Mr. Noe tried to support a lifestyle that didn’t match his income, the financial strain was crushing
“I was liquidating assets as quickly as I could to appease banks so they wouldn’t foreclose on myself and my business,” he testified during divorce proceedings.

Despite the tough times, he continued to find money to give to politicians and others.
In 1991 and 1992 combined, court records show, Mr. Noe sent $29,200 to GOP politicians or the Republican Party and nearly $11,000 to charities.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050515/NEWS24/505150404/0/NEWS10

Tom Noe is under federal investigation regarding the loss of $ 12 million rare coins from the $ 50 million dollar investment by the Ohio Bureau of Workmens Comp (BWC).Bernadette Noe and Tom Noe both have links to the Lucas County BOE. Ms Noe was Chairperson of the Lucas County BOE during the past election. I hope you have taken the time to read the SOS's Investigation of Lucas county following the election:

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/elections/lucas.htm


This report includes the fact that REPUBLICAN VOLUNTEERS were allowed UNSUPERVISED ACCESS to UNSECURED BALLOTS prior to the election, as well as this list:

*failure to maintain ballot security
*Inability to implement and maintain a trackable system for voter ballot reconciliation .
*failure to prepare and develop a plan for the processing of the voluminous amount of voter registration forms received.
*issuance and acceptance of incorrect absentee ballot forms.
*manipulation of the process involving the 3% recount.
*disjointed implementation of the Directive regarding the removal of Nader and Camejo from the ballot .
*failure to properly issue hospital ballots in accordance with statutory requirements.
*failure to maintain the security of poll books during the official canvass
*failure to examine campaign finance reports in a timely manner.
*failure to guard and protect public documents.
*failure to guard and protect public documents ....etc.

Tom W. Noe served as the Chairman of the Lucas County Republican Party from 1992-1995 as well as on the board of the Lucas County Board of Election from 1993-2003. He was also appointed to the Ohio Board of regents in 1995.

http://www.regents.state.oh.us/people/noe.html

(Althought he did not possess a college degree, in fact he dropped out in his first year of college)

It was during his tenure on the BOE that Diebold machines were brought into Lucas County.

"TOLEDO, Ohio, May 10, 2002 ¯ Just about every county in the nation is rushing to update their voting technology, but no county to date has done it faster than Lucas County."
<snip>
"Lucas County Board of Elections Acting Chairman Tom Noe, who was present to observe the May 7th election, was pleased with the outcome. "I don't think there is another county in the nation that has implemented touch screen voting as quickly as Lucas County did for this trial run in a primary election," Noe said. "The people of Lucas County and of Ohio in general can be proud of this achievement.""
http://www.sequoiavote.com/mediadetail.php?id=57

http://www.diebold.com/news/newsdisp.asp?id=2997

Also Mr. Noe intervened with Blackwell in a court case:

Thomas W. Noe files to intervene in Democrat court Case v. BlackwellEdited on Fri May-27-05 05:57 PM by phoebe
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/docs/sandusky/doc5...

Also, please be aware of this information on Democratic Underground, which includes many interesting links:

/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=371800&mesg_id=371800

There were so many problems concerning the election in Lucas County, including with the Diebold machines. Here is a report from an observer of the re-count in Lucas County:

December 22, 2004
 
Report from Recount Observer, Lucas County, Ohio
Emailed report from Lucas County, Ohio, Recount Observer:

i was a witness for the testing of the optiscan machines on tuesday the 14th.

what is puzzling to me, after the tests of the scanners were finished, the witnesses were not allowed to compare the hand count results to the printed results from the scanners. the ballots, the hand count sheets and the printed tapes were all taken away, to another room, out of sight of any witnesses and about 40 minutes later, the director comes out and tells us everything checks out.

we go to lunch and when we come back, we find ourselves waiting in the lobby. why? we were waiting for diebold to reprogram the scanners. what? didn't they just verify that everything was on the up and up? what is the need to reprogram the scanners?

also, during the testing process, one precinct, sylvania 3, continuously had the test ballots spit back out at least 3 times for approximatley 50% of them. during the election, how many times did this occur and what poll worker is going to stand there and continuosly feed the scanner to get it to scan 1 ballot? therefore, how many of the ballots were put in the spoiled pile that were really not spoiled?

another thing that was very interesting was the two people that i was witnessing actually did not know how to run the scanner. are they the type of people that were the normal who were overseeing the election? am i crazy? what is wrong with this picture?

after witnessing the fiasco of a test recount being conducted at the lucas county government center, i am definitely for scrapping this election and having a re- vote. there isn't any other way we are going to get a legitimate election.

Please also visit "Ohio Election 2004" athttp://ohioelection2004.com.

It was during his tenure on the BOE that Diebold machines were brought into Lucas County.

"TOLEDO, Ohio, May 10, 2002 ¯ Just about every county in the nation is rushing to update their voting technology, but no county to date has done it faster than Lucas County."
<snip>
"Lucas County Board of Elections Acting Chairman Tom Noe, who was present to observe the May 7th election, was pleased with the outcome. "I don't think there is another county in the nation that has implemented touch screen voting as quickly as Lucas County did for this trial run in a primary election," Noe said. "The people of Lucas County and of Ohio in general can be proud of this achievement.""
http://www.sequoiavote.com/mediadetail.php?id=57

http://www.diebold.com/news/newsdisp.asp?id=2997


RIGGING THE VOTE IN LUCAS COUNTY

Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.
Revised December 24, 2004

-snip-

The very first thing we all noticed when examining the precinct
canvass records for Lucas County was the distribution of turnout.
The range is striking, and turnout is distinctly higher in the
Bush precincts than in the Kerry precincts. In some precincts
the reported turnout is too high to be credible.


PRECINCTS WITH HIGHEST TURNOUT, TOLEDO SUBURBS

Precinct Turnout Bush Kerry

MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 10 92.67 217 161
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 11 92.46 424 298
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP J 91.97 84 40
OREGON 16 89.46 186 210
MAUMEE 18 89.44 205 190
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 7 87.78 285 151
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 9 87.58 195 78
RICHFIELD TOWNSHIP 2 86.76 105 83
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP K 86.74 338 177
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP I 86.48 270 184
SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP 25 86.17 230 116
OREGON 5 86.09 382 390
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 5 85.96 365 181
MAUMEE 12 85.48 197 262
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 7 85.36 328 189
OREGON 15 85.23 189 287
YLVANIA CITY 18 85.05 434 214
SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP 9 84.98 297 147
SYLVANIA CITY 10 84.87 254 157
SYLVANIA CITY 21 84.87 516 295
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP H 84.85 211 122
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 3 84.56 356 304
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 6 84.48 293 183
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 9 84.31 542 260
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP CC 84.21 262 194


Turnout above 90% is almost unheard of. I have examined the
canvass records in eight other Ohio counties and have seen
reported turnout above 90% only in two precincts in Miami County
where, in my professional opinion, the election was hacked.
Miami and Lucas counties are also the only two counties whose
records I have examined that used optical scanning machines, as
confirmed by the map posted at

verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Ohio



Altogether there were 63 precincts in Toledo with less than 60%
reported turnout. All of them were won overwhelmingly by John
Kerry. The vote in the aggregate was 19,353 to 4,247, more than
4.5 to 1. But look at the distribution, or more precisely, the
concentration. Of the 8 precincts with less than 50% reported
turnout, 4 are located in 2 wards. Of the 29 precincts with less
than 55% reported turnout, 20 are located in 4 wards, and 24 are
located in 6 wards. Of the 63 precincts with less than 60%
reported turnout, 34 are located in 4 wards, 39 are located in
5 wards, and 43 are located in 6 wards.

/web.northnet.org/minstrel/toledo.htm
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/toledo.htm

December 22, 2004
 
Report from Recount Observer, Lucas County, Ohio
Emailed report from Lucas County, Ohio, Recount Observer:

i was a witness for the testing of the optiscan machines on tuesday the 14th.

what is puzzling to me, after the tests of the scanners were finished, the witnesses were not allowed to compare the hand count results to the printed results from the scanners. the ballots, the hand count sheets and the printed tapes were all taken away, to another room, out of sight of any witnesses and about 40 minutes later, the director comes out and tells us everything checks out.

we go to lunch and when we come back, we find ourselves waiting in the lobby. why? we were waiting for diebold to reprogram the scanners. what? didn't they just verify that everything was on the up and up? what is the need to reprogram the scanners?

also, during the testing process, one precinct, sylvania 3, continuously had the test ballots spit back out at least 3 times for approximatley 50% of them. during the election, how many times did this occur and what poll worker is going to stand there and continuosly feed the scanner to get it to scan 1 ballot? therefore, how many of the ballots were put in the spoiled pile that were really not spoiled?

another thing that was very interesting was the two people that i was witnessing actually did not know how to run the scanner. are they the type of people that were the normal who were overseeing the election? am i crazy? what is wrong with this picture?

after witnessing the fiasco of a test recount being conducted at the lucas county government center, i am definitely for scrapping this election and having a re- vote. there isn't any other way we are going to get a legitimate election.

Please also visit "Ohio Election 2004" athttp://ohioelection2004.com.


Looking at the GEMS official results I noticed a weird discrepancy:

First, Presidential results from Lucas:

Badnarik 294
bu$h 87,106 (39.56%)
Kerry 132,537 (60.19%)
Cobb 8
Schriner 2

TOTAL VOTES: 220,190 with 495 precinct in Lucas

Now.. there are 2 congressional districts in Lucas County: District 9 and District 5

Here are the results for DISTRICT 9 CONGRESSIONAL SEAT(which obviously includes Toledo):

Kaczala (R) 60,949
Kaptur (D) 145,998

TOTAL VOTES: 206,947 with 478 precincts

DISTRICT 5 CONGRESSIONAL SEAT:

Gillmor (R) 5,497
Weirsuch(D) 3,277

TOTAL VOTES: 8,774 with 17 precincts

********
Total Votes in the County for PRESIDENT=220,190
Total Votes for the county for CONGRESS=215,721

Now it is understandable that more people might vote for president while leaving a congress vote blank, but...

Total Dem Votes in County for President = 132,537 while
Total Dem Votes in County for Congress = 149,275

that equates to 16,738 more dem votes for congress than dem votes for president AND

Marcy KAPTUR IN DISTRICT 9 (WITH 478 PRECINCTS AND A TOTAL OF 206,947 POSSIBLE VOTES) HAD 13,461 MORE VOTES THAN KERRY! (with 495 precincts and 220,190 VOTERS)

Sounds suspicious to me!

[lvx35]

13. Well no kidding its suspicious.

I worked briefly with USCountVotes.org on this, I am aware of these issues. But I followed all the debates really closely. Kathy Dopp, who was trying to use statistical analysis to show evidence of fraud, meet enough resistance from guys at MIT and Harvard, and from others, that whether there exists any kind of evidence is contraversial. But believe me, I have seen the BlackBoxVoting videos, I know how fishy it is. But what appears to be and what you can prove is a different world.

[mod mom]

16. It was recently suggested to go after those ONLY 192 Cobb (green votes).

If we can get affidavits from Cobb voters, that shows a greater number, especially in hi dem counties, it will bring into question the entire vote. Perhaps we could work with the Toledo Blade and go after Lucas County, since there was such an anomaly of problems there. NEVER GIVE UP!

[Botany]

19. I worked in the edge of Bexely, OH precincts 4A & 4C

the republican challenger was actively working w/ the precinct judge and
some other officials. Every time I left the room she was either talking to
them or sitting @ the table w/ them going over voter rolls she had w/
her. End of the day (they tried to make me leave before the closed out
the machines) ... one machine went down .... when the data came in from
that machine it was 42% for bush .... the other 2 machines came in 31%
bush vote ...... it (that machine) had the highest # of bush votes even though
it had the lowest numerical number of votes in it.

for ANYBODY to claim that it was clean election is pure BS.

NGU

[riqster]

20. Which edge?

If it was towards the poorer districts, this is potential dynamite. Have you told anyone about this?

[Botany]

22. Yes it was to the poorer edge.

I gave this info to the Ohio Democratic Party .....
they promised to be right on it.

:rofl:

[riqster]

24. The Ohio Dem Party? LOL indeed.

Send it to me, I'll see that it reaches someone useful.

[iconoclastNYC]

34. Old Town East?

I had friends in line in Old Town East and they said the lines were super long there......black neighborhood and all.....one friend said voters were leaving.....this election was a travesty.

[riqster]

35. I voted there during the 2000 elections

No lines at all. Piece of cake. Clearly, the Reeps have made some changes.

[iconoclastNYC]

38. Yup

Like keeping voting machines in warehouses despite repeated calls from precinct workers for more machines.

[mod mom]

39. they moved those machines out to the suburban mega churches where faith

based initiative money can insure the "right" people vote.

[FtWayneBlue]

15. I was an observer of the "recount" in Sandusky county.

They used paper ballots there, single sheet, both sides, approx. 8 1/2 x 11 inches, run thru 2 optical scan machines. The machines were each connected to separate dot matrix printers for immediate results, and generated a file on disk that was taken out to a separate computer to compile total results. The scanning machines were E S & S, and there was still a memo on E S & S letterhead advising the board to call them on election night if there were any problems and to let them know ASAP what the results were. I thought it odd that the company that made the machines would need to know the results any sooner than anybody else.

It did seem to me that the precincts that went for Kerry had much higher than average ballots with no presidential choice marked, and much lower turnout than those that went for Bush.

full report at:
http://recountrecord.typepad.com/ohio_recount_blog/2004/12/sandusky_county.html#comments

[MelissaB]

21. Nominating to spread the word

and share with the rest of DU...

Edited to say: Thanks for all of your work, mod mom!

[adolfo]

23. Nominated

Great work! Do you know the machines they used to count the votes?

[lady lib]

25. Excellent!!

Thanks for posting.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that THIS is the way to prove that fraud took place. In the numerical patterns ye shall find the TRUTH.
Very, very good! :applause:

[bleever]

26. Thanks mod mom! Rec'd. And what's with all the people who

pick up small pieces of broken glass, and say, "Yeah, but this doesn't prove that any windows were broken?"

Maybe there should be another forum called "Move on past the 2004 Election" for the people who won't or can't educate themselves on the volumes of work done here in the last eight months.

:eyes:

[FogerRox]

27. FREAKIN Book marked and nominated

This kinda stuff givces me tingles up & down my spine

This is the kinda stuff that oughta be up front >wink<
HOw could anyone not get pumped when folks like this are working so hard--- AND getting RESULTS

Bite me George BUSH

[slay]

28. People need to always remember the stolen election of 2004

so that we can make sure it never happens again. I sincerely hope that when the Dems get back in power that they publicly expose it as one of the worst crimes in American history. :(

[Time for change]

29. According to Bob Fritakis' book --

Did George W. Bush steal America's 2004 Election?

there were only 92,000 ballots in the whole state without a Presidential ballot, according to official figures. That's 1.6%.

So, it seems to me that if you're finding substantially more than that (which seems to be the case), then that should indicate fraud in and of itself, even without a consistent pattern.

[Chi]

36. Hmmm

You're on to something here.
I could not figure out, by looking at the web site (link in orig post), how they came to their percentages....so I emailed them.

If you want, I'll post the response.

"Sorry to bother you, but your 3% and 6% undervotes tally for Ohio caught my eye.
Considering the 92k official undervotes tally gives us 1.6% undervotes, your 3%-6% range is ringing some bells.
Could you please give me an idea of how you came to the 3% and 6% numbers?
(in the briefest way possible as to not infringe on your time)

Be aware I am NOT challenging you!
I would love to see a smoking gun of missing undervotes come to light 8)

Thanx in Advance"
K. Blackwell

[Chi]

40. Sites owner hasn't updated the info since November.

This is the response from the owner (see my email to him above)

"Those %s were from initial Ohio vote total reports (note the last date the page was modified: November 05, 2004). These vote totals by county were preliminary and not the final certified vote totals. Sorry for the shape of the site. I got involved with problems with the election and haven't returned to cybersapian.com to either complete the site or complete the analysis. "

Sorry for being the messenger.
:hide:

[mod mom]

41. I too emailed them to pose a ? regarding Lucas County, where I am concent-

rating on:
Looking at the GEMS official results I noticed a weird discrepancy:

First, Presidential results from Lucas:

Badnarik 294
bu$h 87,106 (39.56%)
Kerry 132,537 (60.19%)
Cobb 8
Schriner 2

TOTAL VOTES: 220,190 with 495 precinct in Lucas

Now.. there are 2 congressional districts in Lucas County: District 9 and District 5

Here are the results for DISTRICT 9 CONGRESSIONAL SEAT(which obviously includes Toledo):

Kaczala (R) 60,949
Kaptur (D) 145,998

TOTAL VOTES: 206,947 with 478 precincts

DISTRICT 5 CONGRESSIONAL SEAT:

Gillmor (R) 5,497
Weirsuch(D) 3,277

TOTAL VOTES: 8,774 with 17 precincts

********
Total Votes in the County for PRESIDENT=220,190
Total Votes for the county for CONGRESS=215,721

Now it is understandable that more people might vote for president while leaving a congress vote blank, but...

Total Dem Votes in County for President = 132,537 while
Total Dem Votes in County for Congress = 149,275

that equates to 16,738 more dem votes for congress than dem votes for president AND

Marcy KAPTUR IN DISTRICT 9 (WITH 478 PRECINCTS AND A TOTAL OF 206,947 POSSIBLE VOTES) HAD 13,461 MORE VOTES THAN KERRY!

I am not getting 6% and my data is current directly from the LC BOE so I posed this to them:

Hello, first I want to thank you for your efforts in researching the Ohio election. I also have been investigating Ohio with CASE Ohio <caseohio.org>, as well as a group of activists from severa states looking specifically to keep Diebold out of Ohio. I have passed your information to others including posting it on the election results forum on Democratic Underground. Many election reform activists use DU ER&D forum to get out new information and distribute it throughout the country.

One of the groups I am involved with has been concentrating on Lucas County. We have chosen it for several reasons including the massive problems with handling the election (I will link you at the end of this email), they used Diebold optiscan machines, and since the Noes were involved at the Lucas County BOE, 5 of the Republican Supreme Court Justices have recused themselves. I will post a synopsis of my info, which at the end talks about comparing the congressional seats in Lucas County with votes for president. When you look at the numbers I use, which comes from the LC BOE, the totals w/o votes in this high dem county do NOT match 6%. Can you clarify your reasoning behind your outcomes? I am interested in your process of reasoning.

Thank you.

I am awaiting a response before I initiate a rebuttal.

[adolfo]

30. Florida Report

It looks like Florida has less "no president" votes than Ohio.

Excel Report:

http://recountflorida.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=6

[adolfo]

31. Florida Sen. Results are worse than Pres. Results

Hi mod mom,

I think you have something very interesting. Have you checked the senatorial race? Here in Florida our "problem" does not look as severe in Ohio. Maybe there is a correlation with the makeup of registered voters?

These Florida reports also tell an interesting story. Let’s see what happens when they are grouped.

No Senator Vote Report:

http://www.recountflorida.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=7

No President Vote Report:

http://www.recountflorida.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=6

(Excel File Format)

[mod mom]

32. I can't take credit for the info, just passed it on, but I am interested

in your findings.

[autorank]

33. mod mom. Outstanding work...I have some confirming evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x364450

You point out:
"In Group 1 counties, the number of ballots with no presidential vote were consistently 300 in 10,000 (3%).
In Group 2 counties, the number of ballots with no presidential vote were consistently 600 in 10,000 (6%)."

I'm going to stun you with my mathematical skills but that's a 3% difference according to your figures. That matches TIA's post of the Ohio State Exit Poll showing a Kerry 51% over Bush 48% win by 3%

I have said all along that there is a direct connection between on-the-ground fraud and the high level analysis by TIA and others based on exit polling. Your post brings those two together.

You're on to something. Thanks!

[Nothing Without Hope]

37. The CONSISTENCY is what's damning. We have to stop them before

the next election - you can bet they'll learn the lesson and be more creative with their fraud number manipulation.