Is it me or do you become upset when you hear talk of what we can do to

[NoBushSpokenHere]

run better campaigns, etc?

WE DON'T NEED BETTER CAMPAIGNS WE NEED HONEST ELECTIONS!

Every time I am around Democrats who start talking about 06 and 08, I explain to them that with a machine counting their votes, it doesn't matter how they campaign. I think people are waking up as well. Put it in terms they understand.

An ATM machine gives you a receipt, the bank knows at any given time how many people withdrew $100 and how many withdrew $200. If they have an error, the look at their totals, and call and ask you to bring in your receipt.

Voting on a machine is the same as going into a room with a panel of republicans and telling them who you want to vote for. At the end of the day, THEY will tell you who won.

Also, if you are talking to a Republican, ask them how they would feel about Diebold if Teresa Heinz Kerry or George Soros bought the company? And tell them, it could happen....so do you really want this system counting your vote?

We cannot begin to think of 06 and 08 until we have honest and fair elections.

[eleny]

1. I agree with you

[blm]

2. Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

They all know that the GOP controls most of the broadcast media - the way media handled DSM proves it without a doubt.

They all KNOW that GOP operatives control most of our voting machines, too.

But, they still complain that it must be the Dem message is too left or too right, and the platform is too left or too right, or the candidate is too left or too right.....as if the media and voting machines are perfectly accurate.

Go figure.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. If I was the type who spread rumours....

I would start one. "Hey, it's OK mr. repug, we aren't worried anymore, Kerry's wife and George Soros are buying Diebold, so next election, we'll be counting the votes. Have a nice day." :hi:

:rofl:

Damn, I wish I had fewer scruples. :P

[newswolf56]

3. Superb retort ("Also, if you are talking to a Republican..."). That's...

genuinely useful ammunition, for which thank you.

[Time for change]

4. Sure I become upset

That's why I spend almost all my time at DU on this forum, rather than on other forums taling about how we can run a better campaign in 06 or 08.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

6. Was at a Dem meeting recently - the speaker was talking about

how our county should be able to deliver 80% of the votes for Strickland......It was pointed out,that yes, we should BUT we no longer have fair elections......gave an explanation, etc., but geezzzz it shouldn't have to be explained over and over again. At least, we are finding ways to communicate to those who are a bit in the dark.

[meti57b]

5. Yes, we do need honest elections but we also need better campaigns.....

Look at bush's approval ratings on this graph. They went up during and after the August republican swiftboat liars thing that Kerry didn't respond to for a month and went down again after the election.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

7. but until we get honest elections, a campaign is a moot point. n/t

[Fridays Child]

8. Agree.

[The Doctor.]

9. I've been sayin'!

It made me sick to listen to Dems scurry about trying to 'figure out where we went wrong'.

I said that if the Dems had won the Election they would have been talking about everything they did right... and not even thinking about all the silly excuses for losing votes.

"We have to appeal to the Religious nutjobs" :puke:
"We need to become more a party of 'morality'" :puke:
"We should have run a cleaner campaign" :puke:
"We should have run a dirtier campaign" :puke:
"We needed a more focused message" :puke:

NO!

Dems need to make a SERIOUS issue out of election reform. They need to STAND UP and MAKE NOISE! Being "afraid" of becoming labelled 'conspiracy whacko' or 'alarmist' is the SORRIEST most Pitiful bullshit I can imagine!

If a couple of Senators actually stood up and made some REAL noise about this... the issue might get attention. If the issue gets attention, The FACTS will speak for themselves!

Whoever champions this publicly will become a hero.

[nicknameless]

10. Y E S !!!!!!!

"VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS!!!"

*Paper ballots* (far better than a paper-trail) and *hand counts* are the single answer to these democracy-destroying machines!

Diebold's response to the California requirement for a paper-trail: Tiny, almost unreadable *thermal* paper receipts, on which the printing fades so rapidly that they don't even last the required 22 months.

[rzemanfl]

11. I agree with you 200%. n/t

[Twist_U_Up]

12. most of my posts say exactly that

to exactly the same people you are referring to

[havocmom]

13. Much of the 'do this to win elections' comes from sources I suspect

might actually be more interested in throwing more diversions out for people. Nothing will work unless the votes are counted accurately first.

[KarenS]

14. YES!!! I agree!!

without free & fair elections, who we run & their message is a moot point.

[Fly by night]

15. We had a worthless "framing" expert speak in the Orange State ...

... at a Davidson County Democratic function back in the winter. During the question and answer period, I raised my hand to discuss the futility of framing when the votes aren't secure. Because I had been on the news quite a bit discussing the 2004 election theft, the woman refused to call on me. (I'm sure she knew what I was going to ask.)

At first, I didn't mind. But then when I got up and stood right in front of her and kept my hand up as she answered two more peoples' questions, the folks there started getting uncomfortable. Finally, she called on another person who had been working with me on fraud-related issues and (to her surprise) he deferred to me.

Given her rude behavior, what I wanted to ask her was whether we had ever been married before. But instead, I asked her the obvious question and (given her limited world view) she had no answer. And as long as Rove and his ilk keep inventing "reality" by thwarting the will of the people, overpriced consultants like her will have no answer. And really no useful place in taking back our votes and saving our democracy.

BTW, she named several candidates she had worked for and none of them had ever won a race for dogcatcher. But I'll bet they were framing fanatics. These days, I'd trade the framers to Habitat for Humanity for a voter-verified paper ballot any day.

[applegrove]

16. There you go. The easier route is to pretend there are layers of

proof that diebold stole the vote and no need to prepare or work our buts off in 2006. Evil is evil. Nobody is arguing that. But we got to go on where the proof & the facts are. We need to get the 40% who didn't bother to vote (kids often) activated and out in 2006.

A much harder truth the Bush & Co are evil and they are in the minds of Americans like a sickness than in the machines. Hearts and minds you have to fight really hard for. There are layers and layers of facts & proof that how they win is with a virus of the mind. They diminish our leaders. They attack our strengths. They sell a whole package on the myths and pride Americans feel in their country. The facts on how they mix policy & politics are endless. They get people to vote against their own best interests.

We need to fight there on all fronts. You seem to look for the simple answer (just monitor the machines and neocons will go away). Neocons and Rovbots attack you and your country on all sides and in every way. For sure there was funny redistricting. For sure elections need to be more transparent. But why would Bush do anything to change this - simply by giving you and I a different set of fears of how they got into power...they have separated us. I would not be surprised if during the 2006 elections - the repuke representatives get instructions to look suspicious. For sure lack transparency in elections & rumours pays off to the Repukes by tearing our big Democratic tent apart and setting you against me. Meanwhile - they go about changing policy in a way that will keep starving the States and medicare & medicaid and lower wages & all. So the whole system is in place to support a few corporations & a few elite instead of the the people.

The most important thing you can do now is to get active at the State level and demand "transparency" in elections. And then work hard to make sure fewer than 40% skip voting. Rove has all his religious right out there voting on specific issues at the behest of their pastors. He is building up the GOP Big Tent (which didn't really exist for a long time).

We have to build up our tent. And that means not assuming things until their is adequate proof. We need people who have witnessed events like the 'redistricting' that just got tossed off the ballot in California or the racially motivated vetting of lists for felons if they were African American and ignoring the issue if the district was Latino.

In tight races there has always been a certain level of game playing. Political organizers are not your salt of the earth types. They love the game and they have played it forever - and tried to get away with what they can. Perhaps there was more foolishness in terms of 'talking points' of repuke people at the polls - bullying liberal looking people to have the exact ID but letting anyone who looked repuke pass with a wink and a nod even if the ID was not up to snuff. Of course there was more of this stuff. Look at who the leadership is at the top of the Repuke Party come election.

Rove did things like run the numbers and realize a year early they needed Ohio so out he sent his religious outreach to ohio to pressure African American Church elders to push the abortion issue and preach hellfire & damnation week after week. That got Rove and extra 3% of blacks in OHIO. And they are pushing for more as we speak.

These are the things they are doing to 'tip' elections.

You are right to assume that the majority of people do not want Bush. But many were pressured to vote. And many fell for it. And they will do it again. Getting rid of every diebold machine in the country will not change the way Rove fights elections. Though he likely has fun at your and my expense as he gets his diebold friends and Repuke Congress to ignore the issue. Because it tears you and I apart.

My point is that people like Rove are a hell of a lot more sophisticated than doing one thing with machines. They have you apathetic about voting (works pretty well) and me angry at you for not allowing that we fought that election and got beat in the hearts and minds of moderates who were fools. And every time I try to reach out and rebuild our big tent - I get slammed down. There are issues we can gravitate towards in the middle. Serious ratings for violent games with sexual content or the capacity to download it...everyone goes - what the hell - who really cares. Well - if you don't care that much on this one. Let it go. It is important to some moderate voting moms out there. And we cannot win an election without them.

We also cannot win it without the hard work of people like you be it election day or to pressure state legislatures to pass laws of voting transparency. So that we all have the same experience of the election.

[kster]

17. We had a family

vote on where we would go on a quick trip, Wisconsin or Minnesota, so the four of us put our choices in a bowl and I counted the votes. I told every one that Minnesota won, they all knew that I wanted to go to Minnesota, and low and behold it was my 10 year old who asked to see all the votes. I tried to pull a Diebold or ES&S , the trip to Wisconsin was a lot of fun.

The point even my 10 year old had enough sense to want to see how the votes were counted !

[NoBushSpokenHere]

18. I do understand and agree with most of your post but

I worked the phone banks, I talked to alot of people who weren't going to vote because they had no faith in the counting of the votes. I talked these people into going to the polls. You think they will go again if the system isn't fixed? And, what good would it do? Yes, I knew there were alot of other dirty tricks being played. We heard a lot from voters who were told they were going to hell if they didn't vote bush. We heard that they were against gays, against abortion, and etc. We also heard from many more that they had registered to vote for the first time in their lives because they wanted rid of bush. They were going to vote straight democrat ticket, etc. We heard more of tales of woe than tales of religious threats. Bottom line is, we lost because the election was stolen.

If the election system were fixed tomorrow, we wouldn't win because there has been very little acknowledgment from the leaders of the Democrat party regarding the fraud.

I listened to a book talk on CSPAN today by a republican regarding, "They think your stupid" The author was talking about the "Political homeless". I do not agree with his political views but I do agree that there are more people in the "Political homeless party" than in the Democrat or Republican party. We feel we have been grievously injured because our own party did not stand up to the fraud. Until they do, we have very little chance of winning again. More people than ever turned out to vote, they certainly weren't there to vote for bush.

We had the majority, but the silence of the leaders of our party has created a minority party for many years to come. Our leaders needed to stand up for the rank and file.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

23. Yes!

50% of eligible voters don't vote. They have no confidence in the system, voting or government. They think they will have no impact. We have to get it through to them - one, by one, by one, that we need their voices. Unless they are happy with what we've got now. :eyes:

[Amaryllis]

21. Of course we still need to get out the vote; HOWEVER, all the get

out the vote in the world won't do a darn thing IF WE STILL HAVE RIGGED ELECTIONS! If we dont take care of that, nothing else matters. Winning by a landslide doesn't matter becasue they have the capabiliy of changning the numbers.

[GuvWurld]

19. Not just campaigns, but talk of reforming the Dems makes me sad

The Dems have actively and openly engaged in perpetuating the two-party system for a long time. This has been an act of cooperation with the other party, disguised as competition. It has always been this way and striving to change it by reforming the party is as pointless as discussing 2006 campaigns. We must be prepared to do without both major parties in the future. Think as if this is an essential requirement of ever living in a representative democracy in the future.

Efforts for reform must now be as local as possible and focus on empowering growing groups of citizens willing to stop reinforcing myths and illegitimacy in every way. For example, when Arnold announced the CA special initiative election for this November, the Voter Confidence Committee of Humboldt County, CA issued this press release saying we will not accept the results of this or any other state or national election held under the current conditions which guarantee inconclusive outcomes.

For another example, we just got the City Council of Arcata, CA to pass the Voter Confidence Resolution which takes the point above and says that conditions ensuring inconclusive outcomes leave no basis for confidence in the results reported. Arcata is the first straw (en route to an eventual last straw, the one that breaks the camel's back) in withdrawing the Consent of the Governed.

We must divest ourselves from the establishment's fictional reality at every turn.

[rucky]

20. Unequal Funding and Media Time play a big role

that's the stuff that's making their wins-by-cheating seem credible.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

24. I have NO confidence in the election system and I am one of the

millions who might not vote UNLESS we have election REFORM. I have ALWAYS voted and campaigned for various democrat candidates. I will not be DONATING my money unless the CANDIDATE will STAND UP for all the UNCOUNTED votes and all the people who COULDN'T VOTE due to long lines at the polls. I WANT candidates who are willing to DEMAND A PAPER BALLOT.

But, even then, they will NOT BE ELECTED UNTIL REFORM HAPPENS!

My Dad told me long ago about the corruption within BOTH parties. I said, then we should start a THIRD PARTY. He said, "No, that won't work because the PEOPLE OF THE DEMOCRAT party would be SPLIT and the Republicans would win," he added, "So we have no choice"

Well, you know what? Without fair elections, what difference does it make to stay loyal to the Democrat party? The ones who will be elected in the Democrat party are the ones that will close an eye and permit the Republicans to do whatever they want.

Either we take back our party, reform the system, join the Political Homeless, or join the party who was willing to take a stand for democracy, the Green Party.

Since our party, with exception of the Conyers committee and a few others abandoned us, and are unwilling to take a stand for THE PEOPLE WHO DONATE FUNDS, I may be among the millions who will flee.

ELECTION REFORM NOW - PAPER BALLOTS NOW - DEMOCRACY NOW

[JAbuchan08]

25. Well we need to conduct a better campaign for honest elections

ya see what I'm sizzayin' (sizzory about thizzat, I azzaccidentally tyzzyped a Z and nizzow I cizzan't stizzop!) :silly:

[FogerRox]

26. Election reform & Good DEMS who stand

on principle and wont back down