George McGovern on Imus (MSNBC) says FL in 2000 and OHIO in 2004

[mod mom]

seriously question the outcome of the presidential election. DRIP DRIP DRIP

[acmavm]

1. Wonder when he'll tell John Kerry.

.

[wakeme2008]

2. Skull and Bones Kerry Knows

:grr:

[libhill]

3. Call me a tinfoil hatter

but, I think you're right. Kerry gave up too damned easily, and it's just - fishy. And he should have had a lot going for him, decorated war hero opposed to aWol Bush. I just don't frikkin' get it.

[wakeme2008]

4. Gore fought and I would support him again

but Kerry folded just too fast for me.

[libhill]

6. That's what I find

to be so suspicious ?

[Goldeneye]

8. Um, Gore folded that night.

Then he unfolded when it looked like there was a chance he could win. Kerry held off til' the next day, which is longer than you normally wait, when you lose by 3+ million votes. There was never a chance kerry could win. He lost votes to suppression, and electronic voting machines, and misallocation of machines. There was no chance he could prove he won. We still can't prove it. And if evidence had come out that kerry won, concession is not binding, as we can see from 2000 when gore conceded and then unconceded.

[rdmccur]

28. Exactly right

[Stevepol]

30. If Kerry had DEMANDED an audit in OH and in several other states,

what would have happened? He had an armada of lawyers, or claimed he did. Why not fight till the last breath? At the very least, it would have uncovered the rot and the corruption in OH and elsewhere and if it didn't even do that, it would have notified the media and EVERY DAMNED VOTER IN THE US, that all's not swell in River City.

Kerry really disappointed I sincerely believe. I don't know what he knows, but I know he's intelligent enough to realize what's up.

I just can't figure it out.

I have a Democratic friend (non-internet guy) I told about the voting machine scandal and the obvious Kerry win. He said, Well I'd like to believe that, but if what you say is true, why didn't Kerry say something about it? Why haven't any of the Dems said anything about it?

Beats me. I don't think my Dem friend is an exception.

I like Kerry a lot but I can't help thinking that if we're still around to write history in a hundred years, his actions in just playing dead along with the rest of the spinless Dems will be one of the most cowardly black marks on our history, as bad as GWB's mis-administration.

[mod mom]

32. Read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the Unied States". It's not an

easy pill to swallow, but it explains a lot.

As much as I resented Skinner's removal of our forum from the front page (and I do believe it deserves to be there), it forced me to look outside the election investigation/reform box.

Story: I work with a 68 yo activist from Mass, whom I've never met but have gotten to be good friends from our activity in election reform. She knows Howard Zinn and after the election she confronted him about the fraudulent election and the need for meaning transparent and fair elections as being the #1 most important issue facing our nation. Howard Zinn told her no, this is not the most important issue facing the US. I believed that election reform at the time was the biggest issue also, as I might guess some of you do. But, as I ventured over to general discussion and read posts outside of our microcosm I realized that perhaps Howard Zinn was correct.

Excuse my tirade, but I am celebrating a way of life that may drastically change in the next few months with a nice bottle of pinot grigio.

I do believe that election reform is an absolute necessity, but I think we are involved in a major upheaval in which the outcome, will expose the truths about the election and much more. Let's hope (all an atheist can do) that the forces that are working toward positive change with be successful.

I urge my friends here on ER & D to read the posts of Understanding Life, who, I feel, does an excellent job at tying together pieces of the puzzle. The day will come when our efforts in exposing the deception will bear fruit. For now, patience and perserverance.

[bear425]

34. I so hope you're right. I do think you are. We are at a turning point

Enjoy the Pinot Grigio!

[Tigress DEM]

41. Look, cut to the chase...

We have to get the bozo's out of office - impeach them righteously so that when we get the vote reform in we can trust that it will be adheared to faithfully.

And daily there is some issue that comes up that we can help by getting behind, but if we don't get the vote reform, then we'll get fixed elections again.

[mod mom]

47. We need fair and transparent elections, not either party controlling the

vote. My point is that the dem party AND republican (traditional, not crazy raving lunatic neocons)party has been tampering with the vote and controlling the strings for a long time. The time has come to CLEAN house, thoroughly, not just a proverbial sweep under the rug. Ask yourself, why didn't the dems, with the exception of Conyers, CBC, and a few patriots come out swinging after several fixed elections? The power elite has been manipulating the system for a long time. We are entering a time of major social upheaval and soon.

[Tigress DEM]

50. I agree in your goal....

but I disagree with the assertion that because Kerry didn't get up and fight at the time that he was part of the fixing of anything.

Back in Nov of 2004 the press was completely rolled over and the only news we got was via the web. It was as if we were living in some other country - don't you remember?

I mean we still would like to see the press do more, but it's better than it was and major landmark decisions - like STRIB making sure to let readers know there is an ombudsman position for us to call in or write to and complain.. and the movement forward and the date sensitivity of reports... I went to a Media Fair in March I think it was and the STRIB defended themselves at that time on the DSM because they were the first here in MN to write about it - 30days after Washinton Post did. Their ombudsman was there and she got an earful of, "That's not good enough."

Recently, they were all over a local issue where the Govenor and government group responsible for advising on cleanup of mercury et all in the water met with the POLLUTERS first and gave the environmental groups the cold shoulder and a vague, oh, go ahead and sort through these files, it's somewhere in there.

Also, CNN decided to actually include international coverage in their USA programming that they had been blocking before.

The PRESS and the Government KNOW we are watching them CLOSELY now.

There have been huge letter and email campaigns whenever something big hits the fan.

But back in November of 2004 and even for a good time afterward, this administration with more balls than brains was severely full of itself. My theory is that they would have no problem threatening Kerry's life and the lives of his family if they stood up to the recount. A soldier will give his life readily, but not so quickly the lives of his loved ones.

There were reports of mysterious deaths of scientists at that time as well, somewhere around a dozen or more.

Reporters that weren't imbedded were murdered by proxy even after that time. The people who knew where they would be safe moved them somewhere they would not be safe, and someone ordered that building to be fired upon without telling the troops on the ground there were reporters in the building despite multiple communications of gps locations.

So when I think of Kerry not standing up to BushCo at that time, I remember that most of the DEMS were cowering as well until John Conyers and Barbara Boxer started wading into the fray swinging with all their might. Of course Ted Kennedy never shut up, but was anyone listening to him...?

I have no doubt that it was more than "politically dangerous" for the DEMS at that time, until the rethugs got the message that "Millions of Americans are watching you, we're pissed, and there are a whole lot more of us than there are neo-con rabble."

Even so, they still snub their noses at us.... and I doubt that making "lynching" a federal offence after all these years had anything to do with making up for years of disrespecting blacks. Rather, I think many of these people who were committing grievious wrongs were thinking about the possiblity of getting lynched themselves and voted to save their own necks. Of course, they are projecting their own wrong minded mentallity outward, but hey, now it's been done, so they are stuck with the results.

I don't blame Kerry because I was not in his shoes when he made that decision and I don't know for sure what kind of pressure he was under to not pursue the recount in Ohio.

I surely wish he had done so, but until I have hard cold facts that show me what he did or didn't do and why, I'm not going to defame the man who I believe is our True President.

[rateyes]

36. I'm inclined to agree. eom

[iconoclastNYC]

14. couldn't it be that saying : "FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD"

Would supress the Democratic turnout? how many people here now feel like voting is useless? I think this is why the DNC feels like it has to be smart about this. You can tell when Dean was talking about it on Randi Rhodes that Dean felt like this issue is a genie that needs to stay in the bottle until we can get an investigation that won't be whitewashed.

The worst outcome of 2000/2004 would be that less Democratic voters turn out. If that happens they woudln't even need to cheat.

If they are cheating, and i'm very open to that possibility, they'll only have to get more desperate as the tide turns our way.

I just have hope that it this period is the darkest point before the dawn.

[ElectroPrincess]

39. What I don't get is why Kerry didn't respond with ...

a vengeance to "set the record straight" as soon as the "Swifty Boat Veteran Liars" did their first trashy smear commercial.

Gee, Kerry acted half hearted at times. Kind of like a man that did not have his TRUE heart and soul into *winning* ... makes me wonder every now and then. :tinfoilhat:

What I do know for a fact is that Bruce Springstein campaigned tirelessly; AND us lesser known Democratic people worked the campaign and the voting polls.

I was so saddened that neither Kerry or Edwards didn't *protest loud and proud* when the blatant irregularities were soon revealed. Just the profound conflict of the "exit poll" mystery should have been enough to stand firm that the race was NOT over.

Now, with rare exception of a few brave local and national representatives, IMO POLITICIANS, in general, suck suck suck! :puke:

Yes, I'm now forever jaded and suspicious of every damn one of them. :P

I want a country who takes care of it's poor and disenfranchised members. One that cares about the everyday person, not the corporate robber barons. Is history repeating itself in some form?

[Goldeneye]

5. Reality check.

Why the fuck would anyone put themselves through all of that if they didn't want to win? Why would they embarass the shit out of their opponent in three debates if they were trying to lose? Why would they call them the crookedest bunch he'd ever seen? Why?

No, Kerry conceded not because of skull and bones, but because he lost by 3.5 million votes. Conceding is what you do when you lose. Usually you would concede that night. And besides all that, conceding is not binding in any way.

When he conceded there wasn't that much evidence, besides exit polls, that anything had been wrong. It was a few days later that we figured out why the lines were so long. And even longer before we got evidence that votes had been switched. Seriously, this Skull and Bones stuff is such bullshit.

[YDogg]

7. Well put. n/t

[mod mom]

9. Kerry conceded because he was poorly advised by those around him. His OH

attorney Daniel Hoffheimer works for a Taft (as in the Repug OH Governor who has an approval rating in the teens) Law Firm.

Have you read the Conyers and House Judiciary Dem Staff report "What Went Wrong in Ohio?"

[Fly by night]

12. Second your suggestion that Goldeneye read something (anything)

In addition to Conyers (a short read, folks -- only 102 pages), I would also recommend Fitrakis et al "Did George W. Bush Steal the 2004 Election? Essential Documents" (www.freepress.org) That's 700+ pages, but chock full of evidence for a stolen selection.

Then I would recommend writings by Thiesen, Stewart, Gideon, Griscom, Windham, Alter, Freeman, Mitteldorf, Koehler, Hutchins, Miller, TIA -- the list goes on and on. But every journey toward knowledge begins with cracking the first book of evidence for a stolen election. Our Higher Power gave us two eyes and two ears -- but only one mouth -- for a reason.

Bush didn't win. Get over it. He stole two elections, and the Republi-Nazis will steal every one they can (including, it appears, Ohio-2) until we grow a backbone (not just us Democrats, but all Amerians) or until we turn Islamic and start chopping the hands off those election-stealing thieves. And even that would be showing leniency.

Our constitution prescribes a remedy for treason and all it requires is a stout length of rope.

[mod mom]

13. Harvey and Bob are coming out with a new book with easy to digest quips of

info for those who are overwhelmed by the multitude of information regarding the theft in Ohio.

[Goldeneye]

17. I was a little bit insulted by your post,

because I thought my last paragraph made it pretty obvious I thought they stole it. But I guess I could've been a little clearer.

No, Kerry conceded not because of skull and bones, but because he thought he lost by 3.5 million votes. Conceding is what you do when you lose. Usually you would concede that night. And besides all that, conceding is not binding in any way.

I was trying to make the point that the Skull and Bones stuff is BS, not that the election wasn't stolen.

[roseBudd]

31. I also think Kerry's lawyers were computer illiterate...

They had lawyers when what they really needed were computer programmers

The Warren County Kerry lawyer totally trusted the Warren County BoE liars, even though he had to fight to even get in and had to split his time between 2 rooms.

[mopinko]

10. great reasoning, except

KERRY DID NOT LOSE!!! nobody is talking about his meaningless concession speech, they are talking about not participating, except in minor, technical ways, to the effort to really count the votes. if he had insisted on counting the votes, like he promised, he would have taken the proper legal actions, that only he could, to preserve the FUCKING EVIDENCE!! ya know, those machines, and chips, could have been examined by forensic experts. i am not that much of a geek, but i know that it is very difficult to avoid leaving a trail of some kind. and when there is no trail, where there should be, that is proof also.

[Goldeneye]

18. Ok, I should've made it clearer.

Kerry did not lose. They stole the election. My point was that the skull and bones stuff was Bullshit. That was the point of my post. But since you brought it up, I'd like to hear how exactly we were going to get access to those chips. The republicans in Ohio were just going to let us see how they stole it? The media is miraculously going to cover our side fairly? I can just imagine. "How dare those democrats! Kerry lost by 3 million votes! This is ridiculous!" Maybe the supreme court was going to vote chimp out this time?

[mopinko]

20. without the candidate on board, the whole thing fizzles

as we so clearly saw. with the candidate on board, tinfoil hats are not an issue. the most important thing chimpy needed to get away with it was for kerry to role over. and he did. i don't believe in coincidences anymore. skulls, schmull, i don't care. i just know that his concession nailed the lid down. period.

[Goldeneye]

22. Gore had more going for him, and he decided to fight.

Look where it got him. It definately didn't fizzle. That baby burned.

[wakeme2008]

11. Reality Check for you

Kerry did not lose Ohio by 3 million votes and they were still counting the voted when he folded.

[Goldeneye]

19. No, Kerry "lost" nationally by 3 million votes.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say he lost Ohio by 3 million votes. There were not enough ballots left to be counted to change the results of the election in Ohio. There were less left than Kerry "lost" by. So even if every single vote went for Kerry, he'd still have "lost." Jesus. And as I said before, concession is not binding. Everyone on this board knows that. Gore unconceded. Remember?

[Fly by night]

21. Have you read Conyers? If not, please do. It's still available on-line.

[Goldeneye]

23. I've read a good chunk of it.

Kerry won. I'm saying that Skull and Bones is BS. And in this specific post I was saying that Kerry conceded when it appeared he had lost nationally by 3 million votes and in Ohio by more votes than were left to be counted.

[Fly by night]

24. The reason I asked was that the Conyers report indicated ...

... that there were 92,000 provisional votes (as I remember) that have never been counted in Ohio even the first time. Since the final "reported" margin of victory was 118,000 votes there, the likely margin was much closer even in Ohio than we have been lead to believe. Of course, since the faux recount was a joke from start to finish (other than documenting multiple violations of election law), we really haven't counted the Ohio ballots properly even one time yet.

I remain hopeful that there will be an effort to recount the ballots in Ohio-2 (Hackett's recent race), given the fact that all votes there were on paper ballots (punch-card and op-scan). If we can prove election fraud there (which seems likely), that would throw all of Ohio back open for serious question and a long-overdue first examination of the ballots there.

[Goldeneye]

25. I had forgotten about the provisionals.

Likely wouldn't have changed the outcome, but could have definately made things closer. If they're still around, who can count them? I remember some DUers talking about organizing recounts back in the winter. I suppose the provisionals have been 'taken care of' by now.

Quick question: Are there plans to recount OH-2 from the Hackett race? I didn't hear that was even on the table.

[Fly by night]

26. Provisionals still have not been counted. And the OH-2 recount is a rumor

My "source" wasn't more specific and they've been wrong before. But I for one will hold out hope that it will happen. If it does, I will be there in a New York second to help, as will a dozen other Orange Staters.

[Blue Shark]

27. You are right about the S& B being bullshit...

...but there was a ton of evidence in the hours after the polls closed that there were massive "irregularities". Johnny Sunshine begged Kerry not to quit. He was told he lost by 3.5 million votes and he bought it. That was a master-stroke by the perps. He was a tired, old, failed (he thought) politician, and he did what you do when you "lose"...he conceded.

...However, there was ample time to get in on the recount which would have uncovered the fraud, proven the total bullshit that 3.5 million votes "added" really was rather than the farce that was conducted by Blackwell et al.

...There is where John Forbes Kerry II was called to duty and failed to report....Help is on the way...My Ass!

[Goldeneye]

29. Maybe my recollection is off.

What did we know that night and the next morning? I remember the exit polls being screwy and the long lines (although I think we realized later that those long lines were primarily in our strongholds). There were some reports about Blackwell being a jack ass, but I don't remember when they started coming out.

[electropop]

38. The Blackbeard jackass reports started days before the "election"

when he started deleting Dems from the rolls, changing the rules about asentee ballots, etc.

[kster]

33. You got that right.nt

[organik]

15. The most important thing for a Skull and Bones member is

being able to keep a secret and knowing the others have kept theirs.

S&B is not your garden variety secret society. Read the wikipedia entry for them. Creepy. Really creepy.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

37. Yeah, right.

Kerry gave up all his time for 12 months just so he could throw the election to Bush.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[LibertyorDeath]

40. LMAO

Is that army of lawyers Kerry had to challenge bogus results in Ohio
on retainer?

If so he should hit up GWB for some $

I mean fair's fair.

[babsbunny]

43. Maybe Kerry told him

during his visit to Imus's ranch.

[Time for change]

16. That's great to know n/t

[kster]

35. Kerry

turned the boat around to save an American, he chased the enemy in to the jungle so that enemy would not be a threat to any other American troops, then he came home and helped save countless more Americans by protesting and being a part in ending the war.

Kerry conceded because he knew the crime was way bigger than he was, Kerry could have had 17,000 lawyers and all the experts he wanted ,and this e-voting theft could not have been solved in time for him to claim the presidency, Kerry knew that.

This national vote theft ring, had to be rounded up by dedicated people over time, I see it more as, Kerry stepped aside and let the investigation begin, thats why only nine months later we have countless books, websites, and a growing number of people that are realizing that the election was rigged, rather than one side still calling the other side "soar losers" now we are armed with undeniable facts that it was stolen.

Thank You Kerry

[farmbo]

42. Sorry...Kerry took a powder

While he held back $20 million of our money in the final days of the campaign, he did not expend resources for legal fees to challenge the Ohio outcome in court. He did go thru some motions and authorized activity by some of the volunteer attorneys but cut off their legal fees in November.

Meanwhile, Bush/Cheney sent in a half dozen $300/hr guys from the marquee firms to blow the challenges out of the water. They're still paying them to this date. Get it: their guys $300/hr; our guys $0.00/hr.

Kerry took no significant legal action to challenge the Ohio results.He appears to be hoarding the campaign cash for an ill-fated 2008 run.

[kster]

44. Assuming Kerry and the dems are hiding in the ladies room

in the first stall,the repugs are hiding in the second stall right next to them because both sides are are not saying a thing about the election theft of 00,02,and 04. Because by now most of the honest ones on both sides must have read something on how the election theft was pulled off. But yet silence from both sides.

[Blue Shark]

48. The Republicans aren't going to say shit...

...cuz it is working so well for them.

...The democrats are a harder puzzle to sort. I believe they refuse to acknowledge that something on the magnitude of the "Fascist States of America" can be born and grow and they have no power to stop it.

...even enlightened thinkers on the left refuse to look at the evidence and see fraud. I spent hundreds of hours at dKos and got labeled a "fraudster" for my efforts. Even on this board we have good, intelligent, Dems who refuse to believe.

...Our only weapon is the truth. More are seeing the cancer. Greg Palast, Bob Koehler, Crispin Miller, Bob Fitrakis, and others.

...Lastly, we can't change the cheating from the 2004 election. We can however, play the game with the new rules that have been in place for four election cycles, but it is something nobody can talk about, cuz that is called conspiricy...legally. We just have to decide to take America Back using all available tools...cough* tabulators * cough.

[kster]

49. You are correct

keep spreading the truth but,it has to be hard for the honest dems and repugs to keep going along with the corruption now that the "horse has left the barn" in such a big way.

In the last nine months the internet has created 100's of internet sites and tons of books about the election thefts.

It is next to impossible for an honest Dem to come forward, because they will be labeled conspiracy theorist and face the media's firing squad. But if we had a ten or twenty and or just a handful of honest republicans come forward, you could rest assure they would have a whole lot of support from the Dems.

The part I don't get is, now and in the future our governments, children and grand children will be getting their news and information mostly from the internet, Their kids will know that their parents and grandparents with the exception of a few, aligned with the corruption, rather than fight against it.

[slay]

45. I'm reading Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 72

right now where McGovern ran against Nixon. It's a collection of columns Hunter had written over the course of the 72 campaign for Rolling Stone magazine. It's an awesome book so far. Hunter lays out with his typical brutal honesty all along the way how McGovern basically seems to be a good man and how Nixon and the Republicans are total fucking scum. Funny how little things have changed. At least McGovern will basically tell it like it is. STOLEN ELECTIONS 2000-2004. NEVER FORGET.

[mirrera]

46. Election forum...

I also have "moved out" of the election 2004 forum where I lived for months. I still believe computer fraud is the most important issue, but like you I am watching the steady drip drip of "truth" about the GOP, coming out. I believe with all my heart that vote flipping by diebold/triad/sequoia software went on across this country. I also am stunned by the blank stares from normally intelligent liberals... "like yeah, people have always cheated in elections, but they wouldn't use the computers to do it!"
There is NOTHING about our government that would surprise me except confessions.


http://NoBullshiRt.com