Can we work with the present vendors?

[timewellspent]

There is alot of talk about this vendor that and this. Let's try and make something real happen. My suggestion.

1. Everyone work with their local county election officials BEFORE every election. Ask questions and understand the process.

2. The "vendors" are there providing a service, work with them to understand.

This is going to be an unprecedented event. 2006 all vendors are receiving money to implement new voting systems. Work with your local elections office to understand the process. Every election has a Public test in which you can watch and ask questions. Please go there and do that. Do it BEFORE the election. It is in your hand.

[mod mom]

1. NO! there will be no confidence in the vote, therefore in the government

until we have fully fair and transparent, verifiable elections.

[timewellspent]

6. Thanks for checking in mod mom

I know that you are upset about the situation that is happening, but I am not sure that we can change the present vendors that are in place to make it happen. I respect the work that you are doing, and have a question for you. Have you went to your local office to check out how they count votes? It's very interesting to do that. They don't hide anything and they work with you to allow you to understand the process.

[mod mom]

33. I am working with 2 election reform organizations who are contacting each

county BOE in Ohio (88 counties) and providing them information and current material from activists in other states (esp CA and NJ) in an attempt to keep Diebold out of OH.

I personally am auditing 6 discs of info from a OH BOE that incurred tremendous problems in the past election, as well as educating elected officials on HCPB and in the least to demand open source code and fully auditable elections.

[MadeinOhio]

37. On behalf of all ohioans!

Thank you for all your hard work modmom!

:hi:

Let us hope that at the end of the day, Blackwell will be in prison, his attorney disgraced and the source code made public.

[mod mom]

44. You're welcome. Democracy is not a spectator sport-is it?

I will be dancing in the streets when these thugs are frog marched!

[diva77]

31. Vendor consolidation

seems that with vendors consolidating that part of the struggle for fair, transparent, verifiable elections will parallel the struggle going on with media consolidation.

[Boredtodeath]

2. Why do you assume we haven't tried?

Perhaps you missed the story about the activist who wanted only to have the ballots he brought with him used in the public pre-election testing and the vendor and election officials had him arrested for his trouble?

All he asked was to have ballots which might be less perfect than the pre-printed, pre-determined vendor printed ballots used in a test.

Their answer was arrest.

[timewellspent]

4. I am not sure of your exact instance this happened

But from my experiences, I have been able to work with the people in the election office and the vendor to obtain the data that I have retained. They make sure it works. I just want participation in the election events before the election happens. Afterwords, it is expensive and we rant and rave about things that we cannot prove. Let's get involved before every election.

[Boredtodeath]

13. Been involved

For 2.5 years. You?

Pollwatching..........yep.

Pollworker.........yep.

Observing county tallies...........yep.

Observing Logic and Accuracy tests........yep.

Lobbying for state legislative changes.........yep.

Lobbying for federal legislative changes......yep.

Where have you been all this time?

[timewellspent]

16. Not here, and I'm sorry for that

I myself have been a poll worker, a political observer, and involved at the local level. The Hackett campaign was the best. In Ohio (which I was involved with) was the best ever campaign for D's in an R's world.

It's like being from Missouri, SHOW ME!

I'm trying to understand. I believe we can make a difference.

[FogerRox]

20. self edit

That was some poor judgement--- sorry
--------------------------------------

[Boredtodeath]

27. So truth and facts aren't easy?

Seriously, truth and facts are easy things...........it's the lies that are hard to cover up.

[Amaryllis]

3. the issue is that we have private, for profit corporations wiht highly

partisan political and financial conflicts of interest counting our votes on trade secret sofware that is not available even to election officials, and private corporations have no business coming between us and our vote and our government, and secret vote counting has no place in a democracy. All else is secondary, and in a sense, irrelevant.

[timewellspent]

5. I understand that, but

These are the cards that we are dealing with. Every system has it's faults, but with our commitment to make it work, then we can. It's about doing it before the election instead of afterwords.

[kster]

7. Nope

they have to be stopped! If they refuse to open up the machines before during and after an election, How can you work with them. They have to be stopped!

My 2 cents.

[timewellspent]

8. They do open up the machines

"They" meaning the election officials and the vendors, open up the machines and allow anyone to see what you want to see. I have witnessed it.

[New Earth]

9. see what?

you can't see the calculations being done, can you? what exactly is it that would help anyone by seeing inside the machine at any old minute?

[timewellspent]

10. I have witnessed precinct optical scan count systems

I think they are the best. I saw how they are tabulated and the ballot itself is the real answer. The DRE's with the VVPAT or whatever are not the answer. I again say, go there and watch it happen. You all have that opportunity.

[Boredtodeath]

11. Been there, done that

And your experience is nothing like what others have experienced.

[Amaryllis]

19. Me too. Been there, done that. You can;t see inside trade secret software.

YOu can't see how they are counting the votes. We have no audits to verify that the software is counting accurately. Go to www.votersunite.org and read about testing and standards. It's a joke.

[kster]

29. Exactly my point in

order to see how it is being counted you have to be a computer scientist, that is not FAIR to ME.

Why should I have to be a computer scientist to make sure that my vote got counted.

I'm a working guy, it isn't like I hang around with any computer scientist.

I can't just call my computer scientist Friend to come make sure they counted my vote.

The machines are not FAIR to ME.

I'm opening my window and yelling I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE!(just kidding) My neighbors will call the cops and my wife will go along with them.

[Amaryllis]

46. Land Shark says the AVERAGE CITIZEN should be able to know

their vote was counted as intended without having to call in computer experts.

[kster]

49. I agree 110% with Land Shark

I mean are we actually going to keep buying their PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE b*llshit, enough is enough these guys got to go. We keep talking about the Dem's being weak, we know the voting machines are being put in place to steal our votes, but yet we keep trying to find ways to work with these thief's. I don't get it! We can count our own votes. We don't need this b*llshit. We need to fight these guys. ALL OUT, PBHC.

[FogerRox]

21. lever machines get opened and the "VOte counting mechanism" is inspected

NO DRE has ever been opened after an election --- and the "VOte counting mechanism" inspected

[mod mom]

34. Even if a particular machine they are using for demo appears to work, they

have the ability to insert new memory cards or make changes that can manipulate the vote. I DO NOT TRUST THE PARTISAN CORPORATIONS WITH OUR VOTE. There will be no faith in the outcome while Diebold ES&S and others control the outcome of elections, and w/o faith in the vote, there will be no faith in those elected.

WE NEED FAIR, FULLY AUDITABLE AND TRANSPARENT ELECTIONS!

[timewellspent]

12. Hey kster. let's do it this way

Examine every ballot. This will take it to the next level. Let's assume one thing. The optical ballots (the ones where you fill in the oval) are a record of fact from the voter. The voter filled in the oval. The ballot get's put in the ballot box (and counted at that time). If there is a problem like over voted an office, the voter is informed and they can correct it. You always have the ballot to count. This is very important. It is not an electronic interpretation of what the voter intended, the real deal. All I am asking EVERYONE is to go now to your local office and ask them where they are going with their new system. Believe you me, they are buying something, or are considering it. The time to go to you're elections office is NOW.

[Boredtodeath]

14. Unless, of course, they ALREADY bought DREs

without any input from, and over the objection of, the voters.

You know, like in Georgia and Maryland.

[FogerRox]

22. a record of fact from the voter--- no

A ballot, yes not a record of fact

as far as the rest of the Merh kind of stuff--- you are talking to wrong crowd--- Merh-- are you Merh?

Maybe you could READ this---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=391261&mesg_id=391261

----this is where I threaten the Attorney Generals office in NJ, with darggin them into Federal court for violations of section 301 of HAVA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x391882

YOu see your "local office" doesnt have much to do with this topic--- Counties are responsible for the purchase of voting equipment

[timewellspent]

42. Merh kind of stuff - That is the most interesting thing that you have

said. I guess you are one of the reasons that people do not speak there mind. You have it figured out don't you. You seem to be the type of person that jumps to alot of conclusions. See ya FogerRox - You are not a nice person.

[mod mom]

35. Canada did it in 4 hours with 22 million people. Many European countries

are also smart enough to guard their democracy from being tampered with. It can be done. In Ohio we will have a voter initiative next year to address HCPB. There are many both Dem and Rep who do not trust their votes to large corporations .

[Boredtodeath]

15. Hmmm, anyone think timewellspent is that new

ex-DNC Chair hired by Diebold recently????

[timewellspent]

17. Simply amazing

I was trying to be real.

[Boredtodeath]

18. How?

By suggesting we hold the vendor's hands and sing Kumbaya?

Some of us have been working our asses off for a very long time and for you to assume we've done so in an argumentative and unproductive manner is a slap in the face.

Take your sanctimony back to Missouri.

[FogerRox]

23. MERH STRIKES AGAIN

[FogerRox]

24. lets play a game---- >wink

which DRE vendor offers to put its OS in escrow --- for a recount ?

[FogerRox]

25. That might be time well spent for a vendor whos intentions are good

[kster]

30. This is

why in my opinion these machines need to be sidelined,then we go thru a few election cycles. (yes the old fashioned way) then we start bringing the machines in if necessary, one step at a time. There has got to be vendors who have good intentions, we just have to START with all the CHECKS AND BALANCES in place first.

Right now it seems to me we are working back wards, and the only way to straighten it out is to start from scratch. My kid voted first time last election, I feel Her vote was stolen, and believe me I looked closely at both sides of the argument. I am now convinced that her vote got stolen by the vote stealing machines.

I have not seen any arrest made,no one going to court and based solely on the exit polls there should should have been at minimum an investigation, BUT NOTHING. If a crook never has to pay for a crime he/she will always be a crook.

These companies would have to bend over back wards to regain my trust (which they are not doing) its time to take them out of our elections if for nothing else,for our kids.

[Boredtodeath]

26. Source escrow is already law in Georgia

but it doesn't say WHICH version has to be escrowed.

[FogerRox]

28. Which version might be important--- yup real big

[kster]

32. This is my point

I'm an average working guy,I should not have to worry about which version of something, I know absolutely nothing about is being escrowed,do you see my point. It is not FAIR to ME.

I do not want to have to depend on someone else to make sure my vote got counted, because it is not FAIR to ME.

[timewellspent]

43. Damn, you fingered me out, why don't you e-mail me

It's a good thing this forum has rules, Although you have broken many of them. email me would ya? [e-mail]

[FogerRox]

53. email you ----I see no reason to--- PM me-- instead

[riqster]

36. I used to work for a 'vendor'

And they OWN the electoral process, by controlling the information.

Our elections have been privatized.

[diva77]

47. which vendor did you work for?

give an example of "controlling the information" pls. thx.

[Georgie]

38. Questions...

Well, Timewellspent, what do you suggest we do with "vendors" who are now under investigation for election/voter fraud? Or maybe that the same system has been turned down by other states for not being Hava compliant? Why on earth would BOE members pick a "vendor" with this type of background?
The fact is we all must ask the important questions and these "vendors" and BOE members need to answer them. That way we can make the entire process fully transparent. And if the people that work within the BOE aren't even going to ask those questions, then there is a problem. In all honesty, don't they work for the voting population of that county?
You should not have one single problem with someone asking the questions. Actually, why aren't you asking them?

[timewellspent]

40. I have been asking those very questions

and getting answers. You speak about investigations, where the legal battle will not come to the reality as the county's that are making selections for the voting system. My main point with this thread was to see how we can work with the people that are implementing the system to insure that every voter's ballot gets counted. Federal money is being spent and we should be there when it is spent. I like the optical scan ballots and there are two choices right now. Optical Scan vs. DRE and of those optical scan is the only way.

I don't have any problem with anyone asking any questions. My problem is getting the answers to the questions before the election happens, not after wards.

I brought this up because I would like to see more people involved before every election. My question that I had to the group ended up with accusations and name calling. I am try to figure out how we can deal with the reality of it happening. That must be my bad, because, judging from the responses, I have been called Merh or something like that and I will stop talking in this forum if that continues.

[MadeinOhio]

41. I happen to think it is time well spent....

But, you can start this by gathering a massive email and letter campaign. Distribute copies of Mythbreakers and votersunite.org pages to every elections supervisor you know. That way, no DREs or malfunction/hacked machines get in!

By the way optical scan is the lesser of two evils, they can easily hack it whenever they switch the memory cards it is that simple. However if there are poll watchers at all times, making sure no employees touch anything without supervision I don't see a problem.

[MadeinOhio]

39. Not even close to good enough....

Trade-secret software.

http://www.countthevote.org

They can let you see the inside of the machine, but they won't let you see the programs running ON the machine. That's the biggest conflict of interest there is and red-flag ELECTION FRAUD time!

http://www.answers.com/topic/2004-u-s-presidential-election-controversy-voting-machines

I ask the people of Ohio and across the land, why would ANYONE TRUST A MAN TO TAKE THE VOTES INTO A SECRET ROOM AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC AND COUNT THEM WITH NO ONE WATCHING?

That's what the vendors are allowing to happen, and not turning over their data.

[kster]

45. Trade-secret software

"They can let you see the inside of the machine, but they won't let you see the programs running ON the machine".

This tells us that we are dealing with CROOKS, that have no business in our elections.

If we don't fight to ban these machines now, our kids will have to fight even harder to ban them later.

I don't want my kids future to be determined by these crooks and who they pick to run the country.

[MadeinOhio]

50. They buy off our officials and pay them to engage in fraud.

It happened twice in Hocking and Cuyahoga County!!!

They went to jail, thanks to the courageous leadership of BOE workers like Sherole Eaton.

We can not allow them to be in the process any longer, as fascism is an evil policy and we shall never become the fascists!!

[NoBushSpokenHere]

48. In order to fix tomorrow, we have to take care of yesterday

And.....taking care of yesterday includes a full investigation of the events.

So far, we have found corrupt boards, corrupt voting machine companies, who knows what we may find tomorrow.........maybe even corrupt investigators.........

[timewellspent]

51. So you think everyone is corrupt (do we live in America?)

It's time for us to become real with the new systems that are going into place. Even in hocking County, Ohio. You need to be there before the Nov. election and make it work. NoBush in Hocking, that should be a catch phrase.

[kster]

52. "It's time for us to

become real with the new systems that are going into place."

Not in my country! Wanna get fired up..............


"Because of Camp Casey, we remembered something we forgot. We own this country. This is our country."
-- Cindy Sheehan,


We the people will decide whats going in to place in our country, not the CROOKS!