grand jury today considering indicting top Ohio county election officials

[Algorem]

"Today a grand jury is considering possible indictments of several top Cuyahoga County election officials,including board director Michael Vu.Channel 3 senior political reporter Tom Beres has learned the probe is focusing on alleged illegal shortcuts in the recount of last year's presidential race.The investigation was prompted by complaints from Green Party and Libertarian Party candidates."-

Cleveland WKYC Channel 3 noon news today,no link yet.

( http://www.wkyc.com/news/ )


most recent-

Special prosecutor subpoenas election workers

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1124703332226220.xml&coll=2

Monday, August 22, 2005

A special prosecutor investigating charges of illegal conduct in election recount last December has subpoenaed employees of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections.

The employees will testify before a Cuyahoga County grand jury Tuesday.

The special prosecutor, Erie County Prosecutor Kevin J. Baxter, said that subpoenas were sent to as many as 10 people last week. He said he could not disclose who would testify.

"This is simply a fact-finding procedure right now," Baxter said...

[rodeodance]

1. the Gov. of KY should be next in line.

[Botany]

2. good news!

please let the truth of Ohio come out .....
the recount was as dirty as the vote.

[LynzM]

3. Please!!

Please please please! Get to the bottom of this mess!

[hughee99]

4. Cuyahoga County is a very blue county...

If the local officials are locally elected, then wouldn't they most likely be democrats? If that's the case, then I wouldn't expect that anything "helpful" will come out of this for us.

[meganmonkey]

6. If they fudged the recount they should be investigated

I don't care what 'side' they are from. Free and fair elections is not a partisan issue.

County election boards are bipartisan.

[hughee99]

7. I 100% agree...

I just think some are hoping that this will lead to concrete proof that the vote was fixed in *'s favor, and I have a feeling that this case will disappoint them in that.

[Botany]

8. Sad fact

Some Dems were in on the fix too.
They had to be. Figure out who paid them .......

Denny White does not pass the smell test.

[mod mom]

10. May I add Bill Anthony (Franklin County) to the list?

I was floored when Mr Anthony had the audacity to say the elections in Franklin County (Columbus) were fair and those who said otherwise were conspiracy theorists at a House Administration Hearing that was held in Columbus in March.

[Botany]

13. please add him

i live in Franklin county ......

his reasoning I am black and a democrat there fore the election were fair
because i am a black democrat .....

did I mention he was a black democrat?

[MadeinOhio]

14. Bill Anthony is a black man also....

He's got some real strange fundie connections that seem to appear as a huge conflict of interest.....I don't bet he's honest, modmom.

I bet this stooge was paid off by Triad and Blackwell, or in other words bribed. The evidence is sickening.....

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1383

[Botany]

15. but he is a black democrat .....

I think (hope) that the dirt is about to come out.

the $20,000.00 bribes some got will not keep them silent ......

We registered over 300,000 first time anti bush voters
the state has lost 2.5 million jobs
there was a large # of 2000 repug bush voters who voted for Kerry
in some cases worked for him too

and yet * gets more votes then any candidate in history?

bullshit

[MadeinOhio]

19. I'm telling ya, the fundies just don't care...

To make it look more compelling, they stole votes from republicans and democrats both. Politics doesn't matter, its who they think is AGAINST them that counts.

Its called intelligent design, anyone against the neocons or any neocon israelite is an evil 'terrist' come to think of it.

[Botany]

26. i know .......

..... i worked on election day in Franklin county ..... a fundie was working
as a repug challenger in one of my precincts. Cross around her neck
but she was as dirty as could be

the Christian Talaban ......

an 80+ year old lady in a walker in the rain I asked if we could move her up in
line ..... she blocked it.

[wli]

29. probably DLC and/or other rethug moles n/t

[mod mom]

9. Here is report on the Recount from Lucas County OH

December 22, 2004
 
Report from Recount Observer, Lucas County, Ohio
Emailed report from Lucas County, Ohio, Recount Observer:

i was a witness for the testing of the optiscan machines on tuesday the 14th.

what is puzzling to me, after the tests of the scanners were finished, the witnesses were not allowed to compare the hand count results to the printed results from the scanners. the ballots, the hand count sheets and the printed tapes were all taken away, to another room, out of sight of any witnesses and about 40 minutes later, the director comes out and tells us everything checks out.

we go to lunch and when we come back, we find ourselves waiting in the lobby. why? we were waiting for diebold to reprogram the scanners. what? didn't they just verify that everything was on the up and up? what is the need to reprogram the scanners?

also, during the testing process, one precinct, sylvania 3, continuously had the test ballots spit back out at least 3 times for approximatley 50% of them. during the election, how many times did this occur and what poll worker is going to stand there and continuosly feed the scanner to get it to scan 1 ballot? therefore, how many of the ballots were put in the spoiled pile that were really not spoiled?

another thing that was very interesting was the two people that i was witnessing actually did not know how to run the scanner. are they the type of people that were the normal who were overseeing the election? am i crazy? what is wrong with this picture?

after witnessing the fiasco of a test recount being conducted at the lucas county government center, i am definitely for scrapping this election and having a re- vote. there isn't any other way we are going to get a legitimate election.

Please also visit "Ohio Election 2004" athttp://ohioelection2004.com.

WE NEED CRIMINAL CHARGES BROUGHT AND THE WHOLE OH ELECTION FULLY INVESTIGATED!

[Chi]

12. Looks like the Repugs have the Chair, so they prolly have the power

Chairmn Robert T. Bennett .... Republican 2-28-06
Member Edward C. Coaxum, Jr. Democrat 2-28-06
Member Sally D. Florkiewicz ... Republican 2-28-08
Member Loree K. Soggs ..... Democrat 2-28-08

http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/boe/admin/brdmembers.htm

(edit spelling)

[hughee99]

16. but Vu, who is the elections director, is a Democrat

So I would think that them Dems probably have the power here. It is Vu who is being investigated.

[Chi]

18. I would imagine that the board of directors, trumps an elections director.

I doubt the elections director had 100% discretion on how the recount was operated.
I would think the votecobb recount eyewitness report for Cuyahoga might shed some light on that though.

[MadeinOhio]

20. Knowing how the deck is stacked, Vu will probably take the fall...

Along with several of his co-workers and some repubs. Blackwell will not allow Bennett to take the fall, since he's too valuable of an asset...

But I bet Vu will whistle-blow on Blackwell & cronies again and they'll all take the fall once special prosecutor baxter checks out all the evidence....and the money laundering.

[hughee99]

21. The board usually decides how things are done...

The director is the one who implements it, and it looks like the implementation is what's being investigate here, not the policy. "...the probe is focusing on alleged illegal shortcuts in the recount of last year's presidential race". I'm not saying that the repukes aren't guilty of widespread voter fraud, I'm just saying that if you're expecting this particular case to lead to evidence of repuke voter fraud, you're probably going to be disappointed.

[MadeinOhio]

22. Yeah but who ordered Vu to implement them....

Who got on the phone with Triad and Bennett that same day, saying that no one must have a real recount because that might alter the "election results"? (wink wink)

Was it the secretary of state, Blackwell? Yep, so whatever happens its going to lead to Blackwell's desk again he is on the defensive.

[hughee99]

25. Did anyone ask for this?

Was Vu ordered to take shortcuts? Did he order it on his own? Did local election officials do this on their own without consulting Vu first? All good questions to ask, I am just skeptical that we're going to get the answers that we're hoping for.

[MadeinOhio]

34. I remember the first Columbus hearing in Ohio.....

It was in January with Blackwell appearing before the court. Michael Vu testified afterward and stated, the Secretary of State had ordered him to reject all provisional ballots that were "not in accordance with the mandated precinct number" so in other words, just throw out thousands of ballots.....

He also testified about how the recounts were done improperly, and Blackwell did not train anyone to do them properly but rather out of either incompetence or malice forced them to do the counts his way.

[hughee99]

35. Good information, but in the OP...

one of the articles lists what the problems they are looking into are...

"In a Dec. 31 letter to the board and Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason, Kerger charged that the elections board staff broke the law because:

It failed to randomly select the 36 precincts used to represent at least 3 percent of the total vote for the December recount.

It conducted "test-run" recounts without witnesses.

It did not allow witnesses to observe irregularities in the review of cases where the presiding judge transported ballot assemblies, ballots and other items.

It repeatedly fed trays of ballots back through the counting machines without keeping records of the counts.

It failed to investigate discrepancies between the certified recount vote totals and the certified original totals."

None of which seems to have anything to do with rejecting the provisional ballots.

[MadeinOhio]

39. Right, but they were the same team of people....

Who were ordered to reject the provisional ballots and switch them, by good boy Blackwell and the same people to complain of Blackwell's phonecalls.

[Chi]

23. Actually, I'm hoping this leads to more investigations....

in other counties.
It seems that once people realize the recount was bogus, they are more inclined to ask the million dollar question....'why?'.
I don't care the affiliation of whoever, Lapore would fit here as a nice example, never mind the money that might have been dished out by the machine vendors.

[hughee99]

24. And that would be great!

I think some people want to believe that this particular case will result in showing election fraud by repukes, and I don't think that is the case here. If this gets the ball rolling in other counties, I think we will eventually find the evidence we need.

[Chi]

30. IMO, there is sufficient evidence to believe election fraud occurred

in Cuyahoga county.
At the base of that fraud you will find Republicans, or their operatives.
Finding anyone else makes no sense.

So I'll have to disagree with you on that.
The deeper anyone digs in Ohio, the worse it will be for Republicans, not Democrats.

[hughee99]

31. Why does finding anyone else make no sense?

"The investigation was prompted by complaints from Green Party and Libertarian Party candidates."

If a misguided/corrupt Democrat was hoping to divert votes from 3rd parties into the Democrat vote pool, why would this not help Democrats? I'm not saying that a republican isn't responsible for this, but it's not like it's not plausible that this could have been done to help democrats.

[Chi]

32. Machines were shorted, turnout was low, a voter purge occurred..

all which favored Bush.
Why on earth would a recount be Fubar-ed by the Dem's, if the results favored Republicans?
That scenario is not plausible, under these conditions.

[hughee99]

33. So just because a (possible) attempt to get a few extra votes

didn't result in a statewide democratic win, no fraud must have occurred?

As I see it there are 3 things that could have happened here, if the recounting was truly F'd up.

1. The counting was screwed up because of incompetence or laziness, with no intent to sway the election one way or the other.

2. The counting was screwed up with the intention of getting a few extra votes for the democrats, or suppressing opponents votes.

3. The counting was screwed up with the intention of getting a few extra votes for the repukes, or suppressing opponents votes.

Since the outcome of the statewide vote was not known at the time, the outcome has no effect on the issue at hand (though the issue at hand may have had an effect on the outcome).

The fact that the machines were shorted, turnout was low, and a voter purge occurred has did not cause the counting to be done incorrectly. There's an established process to recount the votes. That process wasn't followed. It's really as simple as that. The question here is "Why?". The answer, I'm sure, is one of the 3 above, and IMHO they are all plausible. If this were a heavily repuke district, I would strongly lean toward #3, but being that this is a Blue district, presumably with a representative portion of democrats running the election, I'm less inclined to believe that a repuke was able to F' up the whole thing and not have a single democrat involved in the process complain about it for almost a year.

[Chi]

36. Fine, I'll entertain your 'Dem's committed fraud' scenario...

What evidence do you have that the results were skewed in favor of the Dem's?

[hughee99]

37. Naturally, I would ask what evidence is there that

the repukes benefited from the specific issues being investigated? Based on the information we have, I don't think you can tell who benefited from the problems with the recount.

IMHO, There are some people out there who hear the words "voter fraud" and automatically assume that it's both true and based on a large scale repuke conspiracy to fix the election involving many top officials. I'm not saying that they don't have good reason to think this way, but the problem is, when it doesn't pan out that way for a specific instance, when the investigation doesn't find what we hope it will, those people simply move along to the next story and start up all over again. It turns into the boy who cried "voter fraud".

I would prefer to see a full investigation into all of these issues, and have all the questions answered, but I don't think we should jump on the "Blackwell F'd us" bandwagon with this story because right now it is more than plausible that it was a misguided attempt to help the democrats, not hurt them. I intend to follow the story, but I won't be citing it as evidence of repuke voter fraud until I know more about it.

[Chi]

38. Disagree

Read eyewitness reports on the Votecobb.org site (there is no 'if' the recount was bogus).

Check info on machine allocation relative to minorities (there are some nice graphs on it).

Check voter registration numbers per county just before the election vs. reported new registrations from the organizations who turn in registrations (or the New York Times article about massive new Dem. registrations).

Check statistics on percent of provisional ballots relative to minorities (more nice graphs around).

read Richard Hayes Phillips article 'PROVISIONAL BALLOTS IN CUYAHOGA COUNTY'


Yet, I have still not seen anything that would suggest Dem fraud is plausible.
Strange.

[hughee99]

40. Again, this is all good information, but...

There is an established process for counting the votes... it wasn't followed. That is what is being investigated here. The reason it wasn't followed isn't because of the machine allocation, it isn't because of the voter registration numbers, and it isn't because of the percentage of provisional ballots relative to minorities. It wasn't followed because someone gave the order not to follow it, or the people doing it had no idea what they were supposed to do. If the people doing the count didn't know what they were supposed to do, that is the fault of the local or county elections board, who's job it is to hire and train election workers. If someone gave the order, who was it? The order would have to go through the person in charge of the counting (Vu) who, based the info at Votecobb.org, was there at the time this all happened.

[Chi]

44. Our conversation was about the likelihood of Dem vote stealing

In which I asked..
'What evidence do you have that the results were skewed in favor of the Dem's?'
Which is still my question.

If you don't have any, just say so, it's not that hard.

[hughee99]

45. Actually, our conversation was about the possibility

that the repukes aren't behind this one. You said, if I have this correct, that basically if votes were stolen then it HAS to be the republicans. No one else could have done it.

I am arguing that this is not true, it doesn't HAVE to be the repukes. In the 2000 election, * got 34% of the votes in this county. In '04, he got under 33%, for a net -1%. In '00, Gore got about 62% of the vote. In '04, Kerry got over 66% for a net 4+% in the county. Now you can argue that * SHOULD have done worse in this county or that Kerry SHOULD have done better and I wouldn't disagree with that, but based on these numbers, it looks like * did a little worse than last time, and Kerry picked up a significant percentage of 3rd party voters. I'm not saying that this is EVIDENCE of anything, but it does make me not completely discount the possibility of results being skewed to favor Dems.

Now that I have explained why I feel it is POSSIBLE that the results could have been skewed to favor Dems, could you please explain to me why you feel it is completely impossible, keeping in mind that we are talking specifically about the way the vote was counted here ? Please show me where I have gone wrong here.

[Chi]

46. Anything else you would like to twist?

You -- "Actually, our conversation was about the possibility"

No, it was about 'plausibility', NOT feasibility.
Check your favorite dictionary.
You -- "I'm not saying that a republican isn't responsible for this, but it's not like it's not plausible that this could have been done to help democrats."


You -- "You said, if I have this correct, that basically if votes were stolen then it HAS to be the republicans. No one else could have done it."

No you don't have that correct
Me -- "Finding anyone else makes no sense."


You -- "could you please explain to me why you feel it is completely impossible"
I never said it was impossible, if you disagree, please quote me.

Still waiting on...
'What evidence do you have that the results were skewed in favor of the Dem's?'

[hughee99]

48. I apologize.

You believe that finding anyone else makes no sense? Why does it make no sense?

Main Entry: plau·si·ble
1 : superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable but often specious <a plausible pretext>

As I said in my previous post, * lost ground here (about 1%) vs. 2000. Kerry (democrats, anyway) picked up over 4% in this county over 2000 for a net democrat increase of over 5%. This was, as has been pointed out many times already, despite all of the reports of long lines, voter intimidation, poor voting facilities in traditionally "strong blue" precints, and votes that were not cast in the proper precinct being tossed. Now there are lots of reasons why this could have happened, but I do not see it as completely unreasonable that votes could have been tweaked to help dems. I'm not saying that it happened, I'm just saying that it's not unreasonable to believe that may have.

Now, if you will please explain to me why you beleve that IF fraud occured here during the count that is would only make sense to be the repukes, in a heavily blue district with a democrat as the elections manager. I'm willing to listen, because I do not understand why only the repukes would be capable of voter fraud in this instance.

[Botany]

27. Yes

or at least it seems so.

they had 3 + hour waits to vote and voter turn outs @ 8 to 40%

please

[autorank]

47. The Boards of Elections have Paid Workers --

Chi, you're onto something. When I looked into the Hackett race it was clear that the "bipartisan" Board of Elections was an insular bureaucracy with employees more loyal to the board than anything else. I've wondered how you have a "bipartisan board" anyway when people are getting paid by the Board and not the "partisan" operation.

There were problems all over America with BoE's with Democrats on them. I believe that Franklin Co. Ohio is another example of the BoE not standing up. In this case, correct me if I'm wrong somebody, I think it was a Democrat "dominated" board.

It's all a big mess. Just enforce the law. Go for it Prosecutor Baxter.

[jackster]

5. oh no, there were no irregularities in the Ohio count...

whatchoo talk'n 'bout Willis?

[MadeinOhio]

11. Whoa this is excellent!!! Ohio is getting cleaned out!

Question: Who ordered Michael Vu and his staff to rig the op-scans or do a fake recount?

Wasn't it Ken Blackwell? Won't they want him deposed as well, over the illegal activity?

Can't wait for more on this!

:popcorn:

[Chicago1]

17. Thank you for hearing our prayer...

I thought mine were going unaddressed.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. I hope so too!

This would truly help things out. I can't wait to find out more about this. :popcorn:

[texpatriot2004]

41. According to another DU thread they have indicted two of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4520738

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Usrename]

53. IMPORTANT: I think this message from maid in ohio is for you?

it was posted to me on the other thread

Gregory White is the Special Prosecutor investigating Thomas Noe who's at the center of this scandal.

Special Prosecutor Baxter should NOT share the evidence with White!!!! White is a friend of Noe, Rove!!!

That is BAD!!!! All evidence and testimony Baxter confiscated must be shared with an independant special counsel, appointed by the GREENS!!!!!

This message MUST get out there!!!

Kkkarl Rove is facing treason charges and may be out of the picture soon, its time to pull out all the stops on him.....He's a frying fish, it is high time to rip open the Ohio fraud.

[autorank]

42. Anybody know the skinny on Prosecutor Baxter...

I looked into him, as much as possible, when he was appointed. The great thing about his charter is that it's ELECTION 2004.

If he's a tiger or an honest but bright plodder or even just lucky, he could blow the whole thing.

When I did some research on him, he's got a brother who seems to file strange briefs against him that go no where. It seems related to a family dispute. At that time I wondered, will they use this against him if he comes up with something.

Great, great news.

[MadeinOhio]

43. He's got no political connections to anyone.

Totally apolitical, i.e. no conflict of interest which is the big thing. That means he is like Pat Fitzgerald.

[mgr]

49. I think there may be some confusion here.

The two articles are not related except in that they relate to questions about how the recount was conducted in Cuyahoga County.
This is looking machiavellian.

Here in California, Grand Juries are often the local attorney general's tool to address governmental issues and wrong doing. What this may reflect is the attitude of the entre<n>ched democratic majority being fed up with an incompetent BOE, or is an attempt by it to finesse the investigation conducted by the special prosecutor. It is the local attorney general that has argued before the grand jury for indictments.

Given that the elections director has testified that directions for the recount were given from the Secretary of State, and that they obtained legal advice from the County Attorney, indicates that some forethought was present prior to the recount.

I have been crunching numbers comparing Hamilton County turnout for Cinncinnati, which came in at 69.5%; while the turnout for Cleveland comes in at 53%. This disparity, along with an increased voter turnout of less than 100,000 with an increase in voter registration over the period of March to November of 119,000, would lead any good Democrat to seek the elections director's head and run the BOE out of town on a rail, since the situation approximates Lucas County. But it also puts pressure on the SoS, and they may be getting ready to toast Blackwell, by splashing an 'I was following orders' defense by elections officials who by all accounts may have understood that what they were doing was irregular.

FYI: My comparison estimates voter suppression cost 52,500 votes in wards where the D:R ratio is +80:-20.

The one problem with my numbers is that I cannot get a hold of specific voter registration numbers for 2000 to make a fully valid comparison.

Mike


edited to correct spelling of entrenched.

[MadeinOhio]

51. New York Times may have the registrars....

I read some reporters may have it. Kerry's team is staying in on the lawsuit and a discovery process is confirmed for next year. Judge Carr just ruled on the case!

Several in the Jury Room already indicted.

[Emit]

50. Update on this here:

<<snip>>
2 elections officials indicted in recount
Wednesday, August 31, 2005
Mark Naymik
Plain Dealer Politics Writer
Two Cuyahoga County elections officials were indicted Tuesday on charges of not handling ballots correctly during the recount of the 2004 presidential election.

Kathleen Dreamer, manager of the board's ballot department, and the assistant manager, Rosie Grier, were each charged with six counts of failing to follow Ohio laws that spell out how ballots are selected and reviewed during a recount.
<<snip>>
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1125480834285430.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

[Wiley50]

52. The money line is:

Baxter said " The indictments will probably end this investigation"

Fall guys finish all

[autorank]

54. Damn, that's really depressing...he did nothing for months for this!

"Champ, say it's not so!" :hi:

[Algorem]

55. video report,if you can get it to work,

I can't

http://www.wkyc.com/highspeed/