This has to happen -

[Joe for Clark]

Audit November!! We have to make sure this time.
I think it would cost about a penny a person to do that.

If they do attempt to cheat, it could be better than winning. We could win twice here. Catching them red-handed is more than just useful.

This could not only be done, it isn't even that complicated.

At the end of the day we have to own the data. The lack of an ability to get to it killed us in 2004. We are all smarter now. Needs to be OUR work, belong to us.

I disqualify myself as having too much of an interest in the outcome. I would sure like to help write that audit program, though. However, I think we should talk to -

[e-mail]

I think he could put this together. He is an accountant that helped found AirAmerica. Email him, tell him what you think. He is a smart guy.

And in fact any accounting firm that handles forensic stuff would do the job just fine. If they did cheat, we want to know - who when where and how - it is just how you write the program to catch the details, really.

If they don't cheat they are going to lose- we need to make sure that if they do attempt to cheat they are REALLY gonna lose.

Joe
Joe for Clark


Thanks MOM

[acmejack]

1. It most definitely does!

I don't care if it casts $10.00 a person or if I have to cover 1000 people but either way, I agree with Joe (about this!)

[mom cat]

2. Good idea. Could you give more of an idea how this might be done?

Thanks.

[Joe for Clark]

3. I do not have a good reputation for being good at explaining

anything. I am GOING to try here. I realize you helped me post this stuff.

WE form a 501 (c) and WE engage firms to secure an independent opinion about this November. And we control the data. We have to anticipate the issue being the confirmation or the dispute of an election in the United States of America.

It is a serious matter. Not a poll on CNN, a matter of democracy.

Don't let the seriousness of the issue persuade you - not important - but it must control the techniques used, they have to be so strong. They will have to stand up later.

There are going to be about 450 elections in November. We probably need to look closely at 10% - not disclosed beforehand - to control the results. 10K an election - a penny a person - for Democrats only, by the way.

I am telling you, not a complicated matter for professionals looking at numbers for a living.



This can definately be done.


Joe

[mom cat]

6. What do you mean, "we control the data"? I am trying to wrap my

head around this. What type of date would you propose collecting? Exit polls? I would like to see very intensive exit polling done this November. I think that we could get a lot of volunteers and make sure that we have the process fully videotaped to insure transparency.

[Joe for Clark]

15. Sure, basically -

Polling designed to make individuals accountable for problems.

There are four questions that have to get answered to get accountability - who, what, where when and how -

Well, accountability only works with individuals - SO,

Assume a "problem" in a vote - where are the problems coming from, who exactly was that poll worker, how did it get transmitted to a final result, etc..

There are controls that could be built into the questions, too.

Yes - detailed exit polls, designed to catch "cheaters" - that is a good way to put it.

Joe

[Usrename]

35. I've been wondering about colleges and universities.

If it were possible to shame 100 or 200 universities into supporting this on a national scale it would help.

Sort of like doing their patriotic duty, to ensure, as much a possible, that future elections are fair.

The problems with an idea like this is that it can be spun by the propagandists to be some meaningless political exercise. If universities are onboard then that doesn't matter so much. Academia can understand the data much better than any brainwashing could do to undermine the data.

Anyhow, there could be a large-scale effort if the academics were involved, even on a more limited basis. A good national exit poll (or statewide for the mid-terms in '06) might require 50 to 100 thousand interviews. Easily accomplished with large participation of students. Just another idea. (Even high-school kids could participate if the guidelines were simple enough.)

I have no contacts in academic circles.

[Roland99]

8. Audit the elections? How will you get access to the ballots and such?

[mom cat]

11. I think that we have to do something to assure vote accuracy, even if it

is filing suits to have sccess to verify ballots and/or massive exit polling.

[Joe for Clark]

14. Control point issue.

This is an external control mechanisim.

There is that moment in time when the person goes to cast the ballot and can be a legitimate interviwee, so to speak. At that moment his or her vote goes thru a system in our country, but equally that same vote can go thru a controlled system in OUR possession.

Results can be compared - time, manner all controlled. Externally.

Auditing the election is not quite correct- auditing intended vote, more correct.

Joe

[eridani]

23. We need to pick the right 10%

Judy Alter's parallel election method might be useful also.

[BeFree]

4. It's all we can do.

We must audit the votes. I am going to talk to an attorney about filing a class action suit to have a judge declare the right to audit my states elections.

Joe, you have hit upon the one idea that can save the next elections. Great work. Now we just need to spread it far and wide. It really would be a simple matter. I've already talked to a statistician and he said, no problem, it can be easily done.

[mom cat]

7. Oh wow. I thought this might just have some potential!

PS, Please reccommend this for the Greatest Page so it can circulate.
Thanks.

[Wordie]

19. I agree with the idea of an audit, but without a paper trail, how could it

be done? And I feel really uncomfortable saying this, but exit polls aren't the answer, imho. I'm not certain that exit polls can be trusted to accurately reflect the actual vote.

Sorry to be a negative note here, because my feelings about the problems in 2000 and 2004 are with all of you 100%. I think there clearly was something wrong. The only way to know for sure is with verifiable voting, and that means a paper backup for every vote cast, and then someone needs to compare that to the electronic count. But have the states all instituted a verifiable paper backup?

Recommended.

[druidity33]

27. alternavote!

First of all Election Day should be a national HOLIDAY and no one should have to go to work unless they want to...

Second, every Democrat that votes should register their vote also with an INDEPENDENT organization that is willing to tally at EVERY POLLING PLACE that is suspicious or has HAVA issues. If we can't verify the vote through their system, we should verify it through OURS! Think of it like a back-up vote. If we can get bipartisan funding of such an effort, it is even more legitimate than just hiring an independent business to do the counting.

Third, before and on Election day we need INDEPENDENT (non-DNC) lawyers to advise emergency hotline numbers. People should know MONTHS beforehand if their district is in danger of being co-opted. Perhaps direct mail campaigns with an information packet on what to do if you feel your vote has been messed with. With an emphasis on local media contact info and stressing for people to DOCUMENT everything, to bring video cameras and use them.

I'm tired of screaming and crying at our Reps... let's just find a way to do this shit ourselves!

[Wordie]

30. I appreciate the sentiment, and you do have some excellent ideas there...

The idea of a national holiday is a good one that I believe many other countries have. And the emergency numbers for suspected vote tampering is also a great one.

But don't you see that many people might not want to reveal their vote to anyone? That's one reason why exit polls are less than 100% accurate. The whole idea of those little booths they have for voting is to provide privacy. Weren't there problems with vote-buying and retaliation for not voting the way some other person or group wanted prior to the vote becoming private? Let me hasten to add that I don't at all think that you intend anything like that!

Now, the idea of having a second hand count of paper ballots generated by the electronic machines wouldn't have those problems, because the voters themselves would not be identified. Maybe if there were some way for each person to double check their own vote, that would get around the problem I mentioned too.

And your voter awareness campaign, and having voters bring video cameras are excellent ideas as well.

[BeFree]

28. My state has a paper trail, now

About half the states have a paper trail, and if Holt's 550 bill goes through, all the states will. So, for my state, there hopefully will be an audit that we can have confidence in... we will see.

The idea I have is to get the judge to rule that I, or the party, or whomever, can, after the election, view the paper trail. It may not be an official count, but it will be a count. A people's count, if you will, and a count that will end up comparing the two counts side by side.

The statistician I talked to said that if we can count about 30% of the ballots in one race, a confidence level of damn near 100% can be achieved.

To hell with the exit-polls. As we have learned here, they can be as corrupted as the DREs. Now, if we had honest poll takers, confidence in the exit polls could be re-established. But it ain't gonna happen with the current crop of pollers, they have shown how corrupted they can be.

[Wordie]

31. That's good!

I think it's absolutely crucial for there to be a paper trail, and that it's the best way for the vote to be secure against any tampering. I do also think that each voter should be able to check for him/herself that the vote was recorded properly, although I suppose there is a downside there too, because it could lead to the sorts of intimidation and vote-buying that were common in an earlier era. Maybe if the voter could only access their vote online at certain locations, where only the person who actually voted was allowed to view it...

I do hope there will be legal challenges in any district where tampering is suspected. Our vote is our most precious right as Americans, the right upon which all the other rights depend. There should be no question whatsoever about the accuracy of the results.

I should add that I think someone should also be looking at the means for transferring the tallies to the central recording station. If it's done electronically, there's a potential problem there too.

[mopinko]

5. precinct by precinct.

every campaign worth it's salt can tell you, at least in a few precincts, what the count ought to be. they talk to voters, they know who their supporters are, they know who voted and who didn't. the walk sheets are tossed at the end of the day. but if we hang on to them, they at least give us a place to start.
i will be doing some pollwatching on the early voting here in illinois. i am hoping to be able to make some phone calls to some of the 1 voters. see how the early voting worked and smelled.
i know it is a fart in a wind storm. this early voting stinks. but don't get your mind boggled by millions of votes. there are precincts out there where good campaigns have a clue. it's a start.

[radio4progressives]

9. kicked and recommended..

:kick:

[kster]

10. I'd be in

but what do we do about the silence with our elected officials and the media, when it comes to vote count fraud? That seems to be the biggest problem we face right now. There is enough evidence out there right now to open up an investigation in this country about the machines, but nothing.

I like the idea but if everyone in our Government stays silent what good does it do?

[mom cat]

16. We keep screaming, and publishing and marching and getting the media

from the rest of the world aware and we keep spreading the issue through the intrenets.
Lets look at it this way: Bush's abysmal poll gatings are a sign that the corporate media is not all powerful. People are wising upeven without the help of the corporate media establishment. We have reached the point that the public is finding out some things anyway.

[kster]

20. We have enough right now to

"keep screaming, and publishing and marching and getting the media"

I think (and I'm no expert, we need to somehow be taking it to the people right now)

Joe for Clark posted a great idea but we have enough right now, and nothing is getting done. Thats my only point, We can call AAR radio to get ideas, But AAR has enough right now to talk publicly about the election theft , but they to remain SPEECHLESS on the issue.

[EFerrari]

12. K&R

Thanks, mom.

:)

[orleans]

13. k&r n/t

[understandinglife]

17. K&R.

Peace.

[sheelz]

18. Sounds good to me

Audit November!! We should make it a National Holiday!

[fooj]

21. Verified voter paper ballots...

Peace.

[DLnyc]

22. Private eyes?

How about selecting (but not publishing) a number of precintcs where cheating is most likely and then hiring private detectives to watch the action and get solid evidence? I don't think relying on reporters or internet research is good enough here--we need serious, hard-core detective work to expose real crimes.

I guess this sounds goofy, but I imagine most of the fraud is done by those practiced at controlling the press and using 'plausible deniability'. They have a whole system in place for convincing people that exit polls were wrong, etc. Getting hold of several 'cooked' memory cards (for instance) would be a different matter, though. Or records of payoffs to 'technicians', or confessions from poll workers, or recorded conversations about how many votes are needed to be switched or . . .

[newswolf56]

24. K/R (no time to respond in detail) n/t

[Senator]

25. Calling Dr. Dean ... Demand this from the DC Dems !

Dean could be open to a suggestion for "money well spent." This certainly fits the bill.

If the election thieves can be made to believe that we would actually audit and/or do hyper-accurate polling, their sleazy minions who do this at the local level will cower in fear and inaction.

They don't even have to actually do it. Just make the plausible threat.

--

[PATRICK]

36. A little factoid

Blackwell is pretty much outed as a vote suppressing, election fixing braggart and it helps his career. kathleen Harris ditto. Small fry with their pictures and names printed who knows? The jails certainly aren't brimming with them.

And Rehnquist got to be SCOTUS Chief Justice by a Democratic majority Congress despite his intimidation of black voters, personally, at the polls.

Spotlight also needs accountability and some of these stooges feel no fear, a lot of incentive and all for good reason if the party they are defrauding(the party not the individual voter victims) rolls over like a good Fido every election cycle. When all the lawyers and filed suits deal with trying to protect and retrieve votes from the unfettered crooks it is worse than not enough. It is stupid. Law officials on our side express support and then accountability vanishes up in the political levels.

This has to be done but the reason it does is the same reason why one cannot presume optimism. You could march one of these perps up to the court house with videotapes, changed ballots with his fingerprints on them falling out of his pockets, etc. and the system could make this just sort of go away.

The level of official intimidation needed far exceeds our efforts, but the uptick of that is many many will be "caught red-handed". In any event time has passed for the effectiveness of this. The levers of massive fraud are in the hands of a few, seldom delineated logically here.

The neocon cabal in the highest circles, the Gingrich crowd, the e-voting corporate arms, the hired guns. The crappy machines have been purposefully dumbed down to allow political hacks to hack the software. That is one huge advantage. It IS obvious. It is in the hands of a very few. The ACTUAL expertise is employed by those who must accurately and quickly tabulate WHERE and HOW fraud must be done even as election night unfolds in all its chaotic scenarios. There too, the concentration and the efforts are focused and limited. Do you think every GOP thug can screw with the national totals? No the rest are encouraged to cheat in a myriad of small ways to provide the forest in which the monsters hide, many of the small fry thinking THEY are the "hope" of the party. Getting lost trying to tackle the locals will mostly help the national issue of reforming for voter confidence and punishment for fraud.

I would for once like to see some serious jugular searching for the upper Rove machinery that plans, tabulates and then "corrects" the national vote on a very sophisticated level, using computer tabulation tech in very crude ways. THEY are the people who would rule over all parties and machines.

[Boredtodeath]

26. Has this guy indicated he would do this?

Has he indicated he's willing to work on this issue or are you trying to force him to pay attention by posting his email address on a public message board?

Do you have this man's permission to release his email address? If not, this thread should be alerted and deleted.

Because if he didn't ask for this, these kinds of tactics are going to drive him AWAY from this issue, not to it.

[DemReadingDU]

29. K&R

This is good...
If they don't cheat they are going to lose- we need to make sure that if they do attempt to cheat they are REALLY gonna lose.

[glitch]

32. K & R nt

[ooglymoogly]

33. if you are keeping a list i will do whatever i can

kick n nom

[FogerRox]

34. kickin--- This can be orginized-- we have something like this

planned in NJ.

[PATRICK]

37. During 2004

Many noticed many young fascist types doing odd things at the polls. Get names, photos and even DNA this time so that these guys would be feeling something other than earning their stripes for future GOP advancement. ALL of what anyone was doing in 2004, and it was considerable as in the state of Washington or the helpless Florida and the ravaged Ohio, was overwhelmed by feel-good crap by other observers, by media and the quick surrender. The asinine explanations of tampered poll results were blared triumphantly across the screens while the prior crookedness of registrations and early vote tampering were more than forgotten.

"Losing" is still everything. "Winning" is not enough. And the reactions, organization and preparation by those who believe strongly there was fraud has not been enough, and the organizations who stupidly and without imagination refused to entertain the evidence before their eyes persist obstinately to this day.

We are in bad shape for 2006, no doubt. The Dems are not facing it, nor other massive orgs, nor the media. But more and more people are getting the simple, clear idea that the system is rigged, the very bane of what the major parties want with the exception of the GOP who would love to discourage sane people from coming to the polls.

David Dill has a very patient article at Tom Paine again taking the broad high road to what the people want as a voter confidence issue. Of course, it is distilled, brilliant, great. But like campaign finance and fiscal responsibility, you have to clobber the obstruction at the top of both political parties and clobber it hard. Or with the help of the topdown media they will discourage, spin and distract and bend people away- and blame the people for wanting too many things, too many contradictions- as an excuse for political "leaders" for doing wrong and betraying our nation.

[freedomfries]

38. k & r

[Independent_Liberal]

39. Damn right!

We have to make sure we catch people in the act this time. Keep churning out the ideas people.