You can take it to the bank, You can bet your Life

[Land Shark]

This thread is dedicated to statements that are incontrovertibly true.

Meaning, they can't be credibly argued against, or that there's no "permissible" counter-argument. This thread is NOT dedicated to statements that are very likely true, even if one side would ultimately win due to the overwhelming weight of the evidence.

We want statements or nominations of statements that you can "take to the bank". That you can bet your life on.

An example would be scientific truths, if they meet the standards of science.

I'll post one to get started, and I'd like others to post nominations for statements that are incontestably true.

Easy example: If you have a tape recording, "Person X said on Date Y that _________________" There is a risk that the tape is fake but we'll discount those remote risks so long as nothing backs up the risk other than mere possibility.

Better Examples are broader statements.

But your nomination need not be broad, it can be narrow. Whether narrow or broad, if the statements are incontrovertible, they are ANCHORS upon which arguments can be made.

I think if we all think about it, we'll come up with some good examples that we haven't thought of before.

HERE'S MINE:
If you can't repeat something (such as an election) and verify it by independent means, it doesn't exist within the realm of what science will accept as established or proven truth." -- Paul Lehto, Attorney at Law, Everett, WA

To me, this doesn't just mean that DRE elections are "not recountable", it means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for elections officials to establish (under scientific standards) that electronic DRE elections are "truth".

Next?

[stillcool]

1. My Favorite Laws...

are Mr. Newton's....
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Every object moves in a straight line unless acted upon by a force.
The acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force exerted and inversely proportional to the object's mass.

[Land Shark]

2. Einstein showed that Newton's laws didn't hold under all circumstances

But would you like to apply these to elections more concretely?

[stillcool]

5. Much that I read......

.. about the actions of those machines that compute votes, imply that these computers are all effect without any cause, as though computers are computing sans any human involvement.

[Land Shark]

7. yup, even though every single line of code was written by a human

[Jackpine Radical]

3. The 3 fundamental laws of the universe:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even either.
3. You can't get out of the game.

[Land Shark]

4. E-voting is the permanent casino of democracy

You can win some of the time, that just helps keep you going. Certain individuals will win. But the public can not win, in the end, it is mathematically impossible.

[GuvWurld]

6. An underestimated excerpt from the Voter Confidence Resolution

A properly functioning election system should produce unanimous agreement about the results indicated by a fixed set of unchanging records.


That means once the polls are closed, the number of ballots cast won't change, and the disposition of those that were cast also won't change.

Voter Confidence Resolution

[Amaryllis]

8. i talked to a high school group yesterday and they arrived at what

your statement expresses, but in diffferent words. They decided that if there is any question about who won or how people voted, something still is not right with the system and needs to be corrected.

[GuvWurld]

9. That's the point

How great that you are getting in front of high school audiences...good for you!

[Amaryllis]

10. The question I couldn;t answer is:

Why were private corporations allowed to take over our elections?
Maybe I should start a thread on that...I told them it happened under the radar, and this is why it's so important to pay attention to what our government is doing.

[GuvWurld]

11. The ruthlessly honest answer is...

The marriage of government and corporation is one of the hallmarks of fascism. Let's see how easily we can identify the others...

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2

[Land Shark]

12. Contracts are a form of private law-making; under the radar

that's why they should never be held to validly affect the rights of others

[Amaryllis]

16. That still doesn;t answer the question of wWHY is was allowed to happen.

Again, I told them it happened without people realizing it happened, and that is why citizens need to be ever vigilant.

[GuvWurld]

21. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Just as I now ask everyone to consider how we would stop a person from taking office after an illegitimate election, I say we collectively bear responsibility for allowing our condition to deteriorate this far. It is not our fault it happened. But it is up to us to change it. We've been trying, so why hasn't it happened sooner? Lots of forces are at work that represent obstacles for us. We have to be smart enough to get organized enough to navigate around the obstacles for they simply cannot be accepted as excuses. Someday we prevail. We will only not be abused if we stand up for ourselves and prevent the abuse. But all it takes for evil to triumph is for our message to remain ignored, and for good men to do nothing. What else can our message be but that peaceful revolution is necessary, NOW!

[kster]

13. K&R.nt

[file83]

14. These are some good "TRUTHs" to remember:

[understandinglife]

15. Bush is a war criminal and has violated Federal Law and the 4th Amendment.

Simple.


If You're pro-Bush, You're Anti-America

[Patsy Stone]

17. I'll start with:

1) The number of votes cast in any precinct should never exceed the number of eligible, registered voters in that precinct.


:hi:

[Melissa G]

18. If a legal voter votes, their vote should be verifiably counted

and be able to verifiably be recounted.

There should be no possibility of their ballot disappearing as below
because of a bad battery or no paper trail.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2210667

[Martin Eden]

19. Bush decided to invade Iraq before he was given authority to do so

And he lied to the American people about it.

[garybeck]

20. they CAN steal the elections.

forget the question of whether or not they stole this or that election.

the hard solid fact is, that they have the ability to steal elections. they CAN steal elections. this is irrefutable. that is the problem.

we should reframe discussions, and stop going back and forth about what was done or not. the fact that anyone, from either side, or from a private company, or from a public company, or from anywhere, has the ABILITY to rig or steal elections,,, that is the problem. that fact can not be argued - anyone with a basic understanding of the systems can explain how it can be done. and there is no defense of this fact either. can anyone argue, "people should have the ability to rig elections without leaving a trace of evidence." ?? they would look pretty stupid trying to defend that argument.

they CAN steal elections.

[Bill Bored]

22. Good one. nt

[Bill Bored]

23. For elections to have integrity,

you have to be able to prove to the losers that they've lost.

[tomp]

24. here are a few:

--the united states is an imperialist country.
--the u.s. military serves the interest of u.s. imperialism
--the government of the united states is corrupt
--the u.s. operates on a class system wherein rich dominate poor, i.e., democracy does not exist here (extends to racism)
--election results are not verifiable, i.e., democracy does not exist here

[Land Shark]

28. with statements like these, i'm particularly interested in the proof

so that they are incontestable and not just statements of political opinion.

[Febble]

25. More Kerry voters than Bush voters

were disenfranchised by DRE rationing in Franklin County Ohio in 2004.

More Gore than Bush voters were disenfranchised by bad voting technology and ballot design in 2004.

A fair election system would have given the Gore the presidency in 2000.

More black voters than white voters are disenfranchised by the US electoral system. This systematically deprives Democratic candidates of more votes than it deprives Republican candidates.

Where money controls the news media, money will control the flow of information required to enable voters to make an informed choice. This undermines the basis of Democracy.

These things taken together mean that those who have most to gain from a Democratic administration are less likely to be able to make their voices heard than those with most to gain from a Republican administration.

The government that Americans elect affects the whole world.

[Febble]

27. um...

that would be Gore voters in 2000. Sorry.

Other than that, I think the scientific statements above satifisfy a scientific standard of proof.
References:

http://macht.arts.cornell.edu/wrm1/franklin2.pdf

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050721/timing_and_turnout_in_ohio.php

http://macht.arts.cornell.edu/wrm1/mebane.pop2004.pdf

http://macht.arts.cornell.edu/wrm1/butterfly.pdf

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/electoral_reform/residual_ballot.php

and even:

http://uscountvotes.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=63

[Chi]

26. The exit poll dicrepancy...

The exit poll discrepancy, could not have happened by chance.

The DRE 'screen calibration' mis votes to Bush, could not have happened by chance.

Someone is lying about the Warren county lockdown.

The Ohio recount was never legally accomplished.

Well over a hundred thousand voter registrations were illegally purged in Ohio.

There is no proof of reluctant Bush responders causing the exit poll discrepancy.

There is no proof that exit poll responders forgot who they voted for in 2000.