How to avoid using the machines

[gracie76]

How about if every single one of us requested an Absentee Ballot, and then mailed it in, or even better, brought it in to a polling place.(In California you can turn your Absentee Ballot in to any open polling place in your county.) Right there you have a "hard copy" of your vote. You could even make a photocopy before you turned it in. The machines could just sit there, unused, unloved and irrelevant. Would this work? I just went in and requested an Absentee Ballot in order to NOT use any electronic device to record my vote. I do not trust any of the electronic equipment, but I do understand its promise of "quick and dirty" (possibly), counting of the ballots. You can get around that by voting absentee. Of course, I also recognize that this leaves the possibility that every absentee ballot is going to be processed through some sort of counting equipment.....but there WILL be a paper trail/ ballot that can be recounted ...and if you bring your absentee ballot in to the actual polling place and STATE OUT LOUD that you are voting this way because you do not trust electronic voting, they may just get the message. AND, LAST BUT NOT LEAST, ALL BALLOTS SHOULD BE HAND COUNTED AT THE POLLING PLACE BEFORE THEY ARE TURNED IN TO ANY CENTRAL COUNTING FACILITY. This will take time, but it acts as a double check. A voter revolt against the machine -- sounds like fun. (Maybe this should be a poll, but I'm new at this and am not sure how that works...)

[babylonsister]

1. Welcome to DU, gracie76.

That's been thought of, but who will be counting the absentee ballots? My faith is gone.

[Jemmons]

2. Dont think it would work because you have to convince

almost every democrat voter to do that for it to work. Much better to just sabotage the machines in advance, but unfortunately that would be illegal.

[AndyA]

3. Hi gracie 76! Welcome to DU!!

:hi:

This is a good idea, but as mentioned, how can we be certain our vote is counted at all? The system has been so abused by The Republicans, there is simply no trust any longer.

We have to find a way to make random mandatory audits a regular part of the voting process.

[BeFree]

4. Hi, Gracie

Absentee ballots have been kicked around for some time. There are drawbacks, as you have pointed out.

Your new idea that we let everyone know why we are using paper is a good one.

Still, there should be No Comprimising. HCPB for federal elections should be the norm. We can get rid of all the Rube Goldberg machines and get rid of all the laws meant to oversee the Rube Goldberg machines with one stroke. And that stroke would be the pen on a paper ballot.

[darkmaestro019]

5. This is a good idea on paper, pun semi-intended

but a lot of the votes that are flatly going uncounted--on purpose--are absentee ballots. They leave a paper record, but NO computer record, so if they wind up in the trash, who knows? :shrug:

I do hear what you're saying but They seem to already have this one covered as a no-go.

EDIT: Excuse my unexcusable rudeness, dear. Welcome to DU! And keep it up--you've certainly got the kind of sneakily creative mind-power to think around the regressives....

[Liberty Belle]

6. Absentee ballots are still scanned and read by Diebold central tabulators

in our area. Using absentee ballots does bypass the electronic voting machines, but the counting can still be rigged or hacked.

Still, at least there's a paper trail that in theory could be audited, so it's better than nothing, but not nearly good enough.

[China_cat]

7. That would work if you could GET an absentee ballot.

I tried in 2004 and got the runaround for 6 months about my app. They didn't get it, they got it but lost it, I'm not eligible for an absentee ballot, I'm eligible but I didn't put in my request on time...and 40 other excuses why they couldn't send me one. I had to go to vote at my polling place and then had a really hard time because I'm using a mobility scooter to get around and the voting machine was too high. Anything in this predominantly Dem precinct to keep people from voting.

[gracie76]

8. Absentee ballots as a way around Diebold et al/DREs

Thank you for all the replies...I know it won't be easy to insure that we get an accurate vote, a legitimate representation of the way citizens marked their ballots at the various precincts, BUT I AM DAMN SURE THAT WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TRUST ANY OF THE RESULTS WHEN THERE ARE ELECTRONIC VOTE COUNTING MACHINES INVOLVED. So-o-o let's go back to good old people. And good old paper and pens with indelible ink. And, except for those ballots that must be checked and verified -- the Provisionals and the Absentee Ballots turned in at the polling places --lets count every ballot at every polling place BEFORE we turn them in to any central counting facility. In that way we have some handle on how the precincts voted BEFORE any ballots are run through any scanners, TRIAD counters or whatever devilish devices do their dastardly deeds !! Then..last step...have citizens assigned to the central counting facility to watch the counting operation there....at least one person who worked the polling place/precinct, plus one Democratic party representative and one Republican party representative and one citizen in addition- to represent all the other candidates/parties who were on the ballots. There just has to be a way, but - bottom line - we KNOW that electronic equipment is NOT the way. Right now, it is now, it's a 14-16 hour day for the precinct workers, and that is not good. By 9:30 at night, this old lady has had it ! Perhaps we could figure out a system with two shifts, interlocking in the middle of the day?? 'Nuff said; I am still stewing about this one...will never quit, I guess.

[Leeny]

9. Good morning Gracie

I have been voting absentee for about 15 years now. I was always working the elections and getting out the vote on election day, so couldn't make it to the polling place. I agree that the absentees can still be miscounted or tossed completely, so they are not foolproof. But it's at least a step in the right direction. And it serves another purpose. It guarantees that people do vote, that they don't get too busy on e-day and skip it. Of course I've never had that problem, haven't missed an election... well, there was one time I recall rushing to the polling place at 7:55 and voting just in time... It also helps in the get-out-the-vote game because you get your identified supporters to vote absentee, then on e-day you can focus your efforts and not spend time preaching to the choir. You can go after the undecideds and the soft support.

I am a permanent absentee voter. I make a copy of my ballot before I mail it or drop it in the ballot box on election day. Probably doesn't do much good, but it makes me feel better.
:dem:

[gracie76]

10. good morning leeny

I thank you for your reply to my original post, Ms. Leeny, and I also wish to say that I would like to start a revolution.....we all refuse to use the DREs---any type of electronic equipment. That would make them irrelevant, I think and hope, (and I would like the powers that be know) that they should not force voters to participate in a voting system that we all KNOW can be hacked into and manipulated.

[Cos]

11. As a protest, not a solution

People do talk about this sometimes as a way of protesting using computer voting machines. If you had an organized group do it and then publicize what they did on election day, with a press conference, as a protest against computer voting machines, it might be useful.

As a practical step, it solves nothing, though. Having a copy of your own ballot doesn't matter. You know how you voted anyway. Proving to someone else that you voted a particular way doesn't make the total count more accurate, because it's anonymous, so there's no way to tell if the official count incorrectly represents your vote. Except in he very rare case that you voted for a candidate who the official count says got 0 votes: then you can prove it was an error. How likely is that?

Having a paper ballot doesn't ensure your vote will be correctly recorded by the computer that counts the ballots. If your ballot is hand counted then yes, that's superior, but unless they're hand counting all the ballots in your jurisdiction, who knows how much accuracy you gain. Remember, it's not about correctly counting your vote, it's about correctly counting the full set of anonymously cast votes and getting a correct total.

The main advantage of paper ballots is that they are inherently "voted verified" and can be recounted. But what good does it do to recount only some of the ballots in a precinct? If your precinct uses paperless DREs, using absentee ballots to convert some of the votes into paper ballots does no good, because many other votes are still being cast on DREs. You still can't do a recount. Even if 2/3 of the voters join your protest, you still won't have paper ballots for the other 1/3, so you still can't hand count the precinct.

So, good protest idea, if well organized; does nothing to directly improve election integrity.

[gracie76]

13. Arranging a protest....good idea

I am working on that. Will see if I can get others to join in, and possibly get some publicity. But you are so very right when you indicate that it isn't MY vote that needs to be verified. I am trying to get it so ALL votes will be hand-counted, and of course, I am losing that battle. I would just love it if I could get enough people to REFUSE to use the electronic voting equipment, it would make a story.......Next up -- what happens at the central counting location, where I imagine all the ballots are put through some kind of electronic vote counting equipment, even if it's just a simple scanner. Maybe I can go sit in on the count?? I will keep working on it. And thank you for your thoughts, and you are right also that my idea does nothing to directly improve election integrity. Until they put me in charge of the world, darn....it's frustrating !!

[Cos]

19. do your own "central tabulation"

If your precincts aren't required to post their results at the precinct before transmitting them to the central tabulator, they should be. Here in MA, precincts post their results as soon as they're done counting. An improvement would be to require them to also post the precinct results online, but I think a lot of places aren't technically able to do that yet (except by transmitting their results to a central site). But good campaigns post poll watchers at every precinct, and one of the things those poll watchers do is call in their precinct's results as soon as they're posted. The campaigns add them up, and usually have the election winner well before the official process announces anything. If you're not on a campaign, but organizing an election reform group, one of the things you can do is post poll watchers everywhere and collect all of the results to add up yourself, as well.

[gracie76]

23. doing your own tabulation

The problem is that the only tabulation we get to see is that generated by the equipment ....a paper tape, (two copies). We do NOT hand count what the voters have indicated on the ballots AT THE PRECINCT BEFORE TURNING EVERYTHING IN....in fact we are precluded/forbidden from doing that. I would PREFER...even if it took a little longer, that the precinct crew got to hand count the ballots BEFORE they were turned in to any central counting facility. All we get to see is what is printed on the paper tape....and unless you are a nosy old broad like me, you would never know whether it was a fair representation of the vote (in your opinion), OR whether the vote as finally recorded by the RoV is close, at least, to what you believe was recorded/input on election day.
Last time I worked an election, I went in to the office of the RoV the following day and asked to see the results for our precinct....it took a few minutes, but I got them...and nothing looked awry. However, Miss Paranoia of 2006 is always on the lookout for the "evil doers" . I repeat - back to paper ballots, marked with pen or pencil and COUNTED AT THE PRECINCT LEVEL BEFORE BEING TURNED IN TO BE EATEN UP BY ANY MACHINES ANYWHERE....so there !! con cariño, grace

[Wilms]

24. Al I know is my ballot got put in a locked box. That's it.

I felt more Confident writing to Santa when I was a kid.

I struck up a conversation with the poll workers at my (LA County) polling place where we mark (previously punched) ballots but don't precinct scan.

I asked how did we know what really happens to the ballots once they leave the polling place.

I was stunned that they were stunned, as it seems they never had thought of that before and now were wondering.

[Wilms]

12. Can local jurisdictions pass HCPB laws?

Even if the state does not support it, or even prohibits it, and refuses to certify such tallies, could not a local jurisdiction pass law requiring HC their PB's at the precinct level providing a CHECK against whatever goes on at the county and state level?

Could they not conduct such an exercise using multi-partisan counters, and witnesses chanting; "(At least this part of) the whole world is WATCHING"?

[FogerRox]

14. Hmmmmm

When I was in FLorida - 2004- I picked up absentees from DEMS, and took them to the early vote locations, where the outside of the envelope was scanned in.

Wilms-- dont most states have a provision to gather signatures on a petition, to get a question on the ballot:

DO want to vote with DREs, or Opscans?

In NJ this can be done on a county by county basis.

[Wilms]

16. Hmmmmm

Don't know what states do, but I bet there are a few.

And gather petition sigs in a county is easier than a state. Eh?

[FogerRox]

20. Thusly the line about one County at a time:

[BeFree]

15. Legalities notwithstanding...

...at my Board of Elections the fallback position, sans the machines, was mentioned to be HCPB, much to the members chagrin.

My state does allow HCPB. I would love to see local jurisdictions move to HCPB and possibly get on the news as a result.

At this point it looks like localities with the proper respect for the vote will use pen and paper. All the rest obviously don't respect your vote, or care if you have any confidence in the procedure.

At this point it looks like we get no outside help. It's up to each of us in our own hometowns to turn back the tide.

Good luck, everyone.

[gracie76]

17. Can local jurisdictions pass HCPB laws???

I don't know for sure...but I will check it out this week. The State has control of much of the operation, but the counties do appear to have bought their own equipment (Diebold or whatever). When our Sec. of State, Jack Shelley, didn't feel that the Diebold equipment would meet HAVA, and also wasn't so sure it was trustworthy, he declared that no equipment that did NOT have a paper back up that could be verified could be used. That's when the fun and games started. Shelley was accused of various and sundry misdeeds (and no, I don't know if he was guilty of anything at all), and he quit and Gov. Schwarzenneger appointed our new SoS, Bruce McPherson. Mr. McP. had a few hearings, but eventually dismantled the committee that was studying the various sorts of equipment and held meetings at which the public could make noise about using Diebold (and other) equipment. Mr. McP. did not attend the last two meetings that I know of.....but he DID, a few weeks ago APPROVE Diebold for use in all of California, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and despite not having received a final report on the Diebold TSX (don't quote me on that one, I may have the wrong model). Quite a few counties have been using Diebold, and several of the Registrars and/or Clerk/Recorders in those counties wrote to Mr. McPherson asking him to approve the Diebold equipment. I spoke to several of those people myself a few weeks ago. They all claimed that the equipment was just peachy and that they had never had any problems, etc. etc. Which, of course, may be true. But all us conspiracists out here in the hinterlands are quite concerned about the possiblity of California becoming an OHIO. Now, to be fair, I must say that during the last Special Election the electorate in this county was using ESS scanning equipment, where the marked ballot dropped into the black box, so there WAS a hard copy available. The tapes from the scanner were turned in to the central counting office; ballots were checked to make sure the numbers given out and turned in checked....but NO ONE at the precinct locations counts the actual votes. And NO ONE but the people at the office of the Registrar of Voters gets to actually count the votes. I think I will check out the procedure myself this next primary election in June. I really have no evidence or suspicion that anything wrong has happened here, but I KNOW and you KNOW that the possibility is there, and that the State of California has a nice large number of electoral votes for whichever side can claim them.

[Wilms]

18. We concur.

What you posted is roughly my understanding.

Yolo County is using Vote-PAD to meet accessibility requirements. And some county hand-counted the last election, so it seems it's not completely banned. I'm just not familiar with the election codes treatment of it.

In some areas, I'd be surprised if it wasn't a lot cheaper to do than suffering all the costs related to e-voting.

Looking forward to what you find out.

And welcome to DU. :hi:

[gracie76]

21. HCPB and who's in charge around here ???

According to the office of the Secretary of State, the various and individual counties may select their own voting equipment and procedures....with the proviso that the equipment is approved by the Secretary of State (as to being HAVA compliant, for instance)and also the proviso that there is some kind of HAVA compliant equipment available at the polling places..and, of course all of the various laws, state and county that have to do with how you conduct elections/Government Codes, in other words. (Yolo Counties VotePad..is probably the least expensive and best, I hear, of the HAVA-compliant equipment). COUNTIES MAY, if they wish,conduct their elections using paper and pen/indelible pencil (whatever); the option is that of the county. And as long as there is some sort of HAVA-compliant equipment available for the handicapped voter, the county is in compliance with the federal law, and the state's law and government codes. Sacramento County (my county of residence) does not use Diebold, but does use an optical scan machine made by ES&S...the voter marks the ballot (fills in the bubbles...at least that was what was done the last time I worked the polls), and then the voter inserts the ballot into the M-100 optical scan machine, which records the votes on a tape and a chip inside the machine. (The actual ballot drops down into the black box...where it stays until the end of the day....an actual hard copy ballot). There will be two copies of the tape with the vote count on it--one goes with the chip that is inside the machine and that is doing the actual counting...and the other one is turned in to the Reg.of voters along with the machine/equipment and all the ballots, etc. at the end of the day.
When the ballots get to the Reg. of voters central counting facility, after the polls close at 8 p.m., their counting starts. The ballots are run through the scanners at the RoV office to see if they agree with what is on the tapes/chip. In the case of an unusual difference, the ballots themselves can be taken aside and re-counted, by hand. The ABSENTEE BALLOTS are counted, starting 7 days prior to election day. The Provisional ballots and Absentee ballots that are turned in on election day must be opened and verified as being from legally registered voters, etc.....then they are also run through a scanner and those results are added to the regular ballots and the previously counted Absentee ballots. THE COUNTING ITSELF can be watched by the public, any member of the public, including the media, cameras and all, can come to the office of the RoV and watch the procedures, through glass windows....you can't get in, ask questions or in any way obstruct the procedure. After all this there is a 28-day canvass....(I'll have to figure out exactly what that means...) before the final count is considered done/legal etc. IF THE PRECINCT CREW IS STILL AWAKE ENOUGH TO CHECK IT...THE CREW CAN CHECK THE PRINTED TAPE ON THE ACTUAL VOTE TO SEE IF IT MORE OR LESS MATCHES WHAT WOULD BE EXPECTED IN THE WAY OF A VOTING PATTERN IN THAT PARTICULAR PRECINCT--BEFORE TURNING ANYTHING IN. THE TAPES DO (or DID when I was working there) show the votes in each race, and if you know your voters, you can see if something is out of whack. The people at the polling place have information there that tells them exactly how many voters have voted absentee, and how many voters could be coming in to the polls to vote in person. If they have been doing this for a while, and at the same polling place, they pretty much know what to expect in the way of turnout...and also in the way of political leanings of their voters..THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR SOMEBODY TO GET IN THERE AND MANIPULATE THE RESULTS, SO....we have to be vigilant...check the results -- go into the REg. of Voters office and ask to see the results of the count. Those poor souls stay there until 2 or 3 in the morning to run through the original count. It is up to us to check and see if everything looks copacetic. I hope you are not on overload. I AM...thank you to everyone for taking an interest in this and let's all keep our eyes and ears open. gc

[Wilms]

25. Overwhelmed as well as over-loaded.

You wrote; "There will be two copies of the tape with the vote count on it--one goes with the chip that is inside the machine and that is doing the actual counting...and the other one is turned in to the Reg. of Voters along with the machine/equipment and all the ballots, etc. at the end of the day."

I'm not clear on this. Where does the poll tape and the "chip" (I guess you mean memory card) go?

Thanks for the excellent post.

[gracie76]

26. where oh where is my memory card

Yes, it is the memory card, not the "chip". My recollection is that, after taking all the ballots out of the bottom of the black box and sorting and counting...just the NUMBER of ballots used, destroyed, etc... NOT how anyone voted on any ballot....we then were to wrap up all the voted ballots and put them in the appropriately marked bags/boxes. One copy of the tape generated by the scan machine stayed with the machine as it was turned in, ensconced in its own black carrying bag. In another special bag, an orange colored one, I believe, a second copy of the tape, along with the memory card AND the keys to the kingdom ( which opened the access to the memory card)were all turned in.The Absentee and Provisional Ballots, which were in different colored envelopes, were turned in,having been placed in the bags marked for their transport.
The ONLY counting we did at the polling place was the counting of the number of ballots we had issued (they are numbered, and after checking the numbers on the ballots remaining unused, plus the number of ballots that were destroyed/replaced etc., we could come to the actual number of ballots used by voters on that day). That count would include any Provisional ballots, but NOT any Absentee Ballots, since the absentee ballots did not come from our supply of ballots, but the Provisionals did.
My personal and rather strong opinion is that it would be a lot simpler and more secure to vote by mail, (NEVER VOTE ON LINE...OH MY GOD, NO)and require that NO ballots are opened until members of the public are there to assist (possibly) and verify. That would eliminate the need to have polling places, or people to staff them, and money to be paid to them, and training sessions, and a TON of other equipment and supplies that must be furnished. The staff of the Reg. of Voters has to be the entity that checks the Provisionals and Absentees...against their records, signatures, etc. But they do that checking from information on the OUTSIDE of the envelope before opening it up...so they do not know (they claim, and I believe them) how any particular person voted. STILL AND ALL...AT ONE POINT THESE BALLOTS WILL PROBABLY BE PUT THROUGH SOME COUNTING DEVICE....BUT IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, IN MY NOT-TOO-HUMBLE OPINION, UNTIL AFTER THERE IS A HAND-COUNTING OF THE BALLOTS. This would, in and of itself, be a double check. What thinkest thou???? gc

[Land Shark]

22. would work in WA state with liberal absentee rules...

[Cookie wookie]

27. That's what some of us are calling for in Georgia

where a law was recently passed that allows voters to vote by mail-in absentee ballot without having to have any excuse (like being away from the polls on election day, etc.)

That's what I'll be doing and encouraging everyone I know to do the same.

We have tried for the last 3 legislative sessions to get voter verified paper ballot legislation approved, and got our "ideal" legislation sponsored and introduced this year (SB591) The Vote Count Protection Act which called for hand counted vvpb in the precincts on election night, the vvpb being the ballot of record.

We have lost on every effort to get this passed.

This November 2006 the only way to have paper is by voting absentee by mail because there's no more legislative opportunities to get a paper record of votes this year. That doesn't mean we'll stop trying to get state legislation, plus continuing to support the Holt bill in Congress.

The reasons given for problems about whether absentee ballots are counted are valid. In Georgia we don't know if absentee votes are counted correctly -- the Diebold GEMS code is used for the optiscans to count the paper ballots.

That being said, the more people who vote absentee paper ballots in protest against the machines the better. After all, if there is a recount or contested election, there will be a paper record of our votes. And I'm not throwing my vote down the DRE rabbit hole even one more time. No way. I PROTEST!

So I say to you -- go for it.

[demodonkey]

28. I don't want to scare y'all but READ THIS...

I am a pollworker in Pennsylvania. At the training class on how to use the paperless ES&S iVotronics we are getting, we were taught to do this with absentee ballots (which used to be hand counted and hand recorded at the precinct.)

Check them in, then open the outer envelopes and mix the secrecy envelopes as usual. Then open the secrecy envelope, and with two other pollworkers watching, VOTE THE BALLOT ONTO THE IVOTRONIC. That's right. I, as a pollworker, will have to enter YOUR vote onto a paperless machine. It will NOT be hand counted and the blasted machine will get your vote anyway.

Scares the H out me me too.

Again, this is Pennsylvania. Your mileage and practices may vary.