More info that STRATEGISTS and ADVISORS are keeping machine issue down.

[blm]

I talked to a southern political writer for a major news group and he said that there has been buzz about the machines, but that KEY political figures (read Clinton, Carville, Begala) believe it distracts from other issues and makes Democrats sound weak and whiny.

What I think is that they don't WANT the public to know the problem for Dems in the last two elections was in the machines and election fraud.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

1. THIS is what makes..

..Democrats sound "weak and whiny".

Well, this and Joe Lieberman (moreso the whiny part).

[ShortnFiery]

4. OR that they may have obligations to Corporate Masters

Corporations want CONSERVATIVES, from both the Republican and Democratic Parties. They want representatives who will always favor Corporation's interests over that of The Average American Worker.

Look at where these so called Advisers make their money and I think you will find a LARGE CORPORATE support base.

Face it - Revealing the truth about Diebold's deceit of the American Electorate would be very bad for business, i.e., Wall Street.

It's not the Democrats, in general, only the ones who serve Corporations FIRST and FOREMOST. These are the Democrats who must change or be voted out within their next primary. ;)

[Joanne98]

14. Exactly. They're still whining about the McCain Feingold bill

Because the DEMS got most of their money from BIG donors.

[OzarkDem]

6. Media is trying to dodge responsibility

its very convenient for them to blame lack of coverage on Dems. I can't remember the last time the media took Dems advice on any issue.

[blm]

20. Remember when Kerry nailed Jonathan Kaplan last month? No media

followed up on what happened there. A reporter actually saying "Fuck him" to other reporters and wanting them to join him in attacking the senator....most stayed silent, and NONE wrote about their colleagues' tantrum because a senator dared remind him to do his job for the public interest.

[derby378]

2. Looks like it's time for precinct chairs to stand up and get to work

I'm sorry, but I feel really strongly about this.

[LaPera]

3. So massive republican voting fraud, so easily hackable is not as important

as losing elections to Diebold thefts, as it is NOT to look whiny? That's what Kerry said about OHIO...

The republicans and their owned media will say "sore losers", "sour grapes" and that's enough for the Dem's to say OK - we'll shut up and let you republicans steal it - Just don't call us "whiny"?

Of course the republicans will scream, so what? ALL theives scream and point the finger back at their accuser...But Dems show some fucking balls and expose the truth!

Seems to me the fucking Dem's really are a bunch of pussies, truly, not just a republican label...Fucking afraid of calling the republican on them stealing elections...Un-fucking-believable!!

[blm]

8. Kerry didn't say that about Ohio - other people were.

Kerry ends up being the focus of the blame. Just as intended. The DNC was filled with Clinton people and so was Kerry's campaign.

The point is that Kerry had no choice - as the Princeton study reminds us - the machines are programmed for one time use and there is NO TRACE of the fraud AFTERWARDS. The machines need securing BEFORE the vote, as after is too late.

The person who ends up skating on this while everyone heaps scorn on Kerry is the person who was actually CHARGED with the Voter Integity task for Dems - Terry McAuliffe and ....... add Donna Brazile who headed that office.

Thanks to the spin against Kerry, the DNC didn't HAVE to be held responsible for BLOWING The integrity of the election in a MASSIVE way. They failed to spend their four years strengthening the infrastructure of the party and countering the RNCs tactics of suppressing Dem votes, purging voter rolls, and rigging machines all over the country and especially in crucial states like Ohio.

[roseBudd]

19. The poor do have a fatalistic view and I think it does depress turnout

among historically low turnout groups.

[Land Shark]

21. If publicly support election integrity, people won't vote (says the logic)

But if we let the election systems continue to worsen, then people have a greater CHANCE of voting.

THEREFORE, Dems say "let's let the elections systems continue to worsen. We don't want to suppress turnout..."

Say what?

It's still GOT TO BE A DEBATE about the nature of the underlying conditions of the election system because the "suppress the vote" objection ultimately makes no sense IN CONTEXT.

[OzarkDem]

5. I've heard they're afraid it will hurt Dem voter turnout

I'd heard they were trying to strike the right balance between making sure elections are secure and not frightening voters into giving up and staying home.

IMHO, Dem leaders have been hurt by their lack of knowledge on this issue. They became educated only recently and their lack of confidence in discussing election fraud keeps them from publicly addressing it as they should.


That goes double for "old school" Dem political advisors. Their ignorance on the topic and their embarrassment about it are causing them to give Beltway Dem leaders bad advice. They don't want to admit that they don't really understand the problems, so they just distance themselves from the issue.

On the bright side, RFK, Jr. has talked to many of them about it. They'll listen to him, perhaps we can support him as he keeps pushing them to deal with it.

Either way, its no excuse for the news media to ignore the issue. The MSM hasn't respected Dems positions on any other issues recently, I can't believe they're trying to blame their lack of coverage on them.

[blm]

7. I wish I could add your post to mine for a more complete picture.

Sounds to me like the fuller picture is in both our posts.

It really smacks of NOT TRUSTING people with the truth, and that they are more confident in their ability to manipulate. I think that attitude is dead wrong.

Trust the lawmakers to gather and LISTEN to the details. Make their spokepeople be part of it, too. Take a weekend seminar and TEACH THEM what they need to know.

Then TRUST The citizens of this country with the TRUTH.

The GOP wouldn't know what hit them.

[Joanne98]

15. Suppress voter turnout. What a lame excuse.

[flyarm]

18. but it *is* the excuse the people in power with the dem party are using!

[flyarm]

17. that is exactly what has been said in fla..it will hurt voter turnout...

and its bullshit!!

it was said quietly at fla convention they tried to shut us up..make jokes about those who discussed it..rolled eyes..and were dismissive..in the dem party..our dec chairs and sec chairs have tried to shut us up..

but they are loosing the battle..because they are being voted out of the dec chair positions..and sec chair postitions..

and the FDP..better get out of the way as well..because we will not be shut up!

fly

[blue cat]

9. The repubs

would never stop screaming about this if the situation was reversed. this pisses me off. they don't know how this issue has distressed Americans living in a supposed democracy.

[Febble]

10. The answer to this

is simply that the issue of machine security needs to be completely decoupled from the issue of who won the last election.

Guvworld has it right - the scandal is that with hackable machines there is no way of knowing for sure who won. This should have cross party appeal. Even Fox was on to it.

Democrats won't sound "weak and whiny" if they simply point to the appalling, demonstrated problems with the machines, and the fact that no-one can know whether the count is correct or not.

After all, what the Princeton team showed was that anyone could hack the machines. You don't have to be a Republican to pick a lock and insert a memory card.

[GuvWurld]

11. Thanks Febble. People also have to think past the parties.

It is one thing to see and cite dynamics literally influenced by powerful decision makers. But that only means those people must not be counted upon as part of the solution. The current party structure of American politics must go. Or at least undergo such a complete overhaul that for a time there is a gap in its existence whereby corporate influence is completely removed and citizens gain control of the machinations of their government. If we go on believing that there can be some balance between a citizen and corporate run government, we will continue to be decimated on the losing side of that power struggle, as we have been for some time now.

[blm]

12. Those who UNDERSTAND the issue do decouple it. Votes CAN'T be recounted

fairly the way many think because there is no TRACE of the fraud to be found in the rigged machines AFTER the initial count.

Those with a narrow political agenda keep fanning flames at Kerry as if he could have done something about it, when the fact is that the machines should have been secured BEFORE the vote and that was the perview of the DNC and its office of Voter Integrity which was charged with countering RNC's dirty tricks at suppressing the vote, purging voter rolls and exposing vote rigging.

How did they do?

[mod mom]

22. Febble, have to disagree with you here. One issue is machine security,

but the other issue is the acknowledgement of the GOP dirty tricks. Bringing them to light, since the media failed to do after the '04, is an important way to highlight how it was done in Ohio, what we must look for going forward, and how best to address the lack of equal protection of voters. Sweeping it under the rug, just keeps people in the dark. It will be a combination of methods in November, just like it has been in the past.

[Febble]

23. I absolutely agree

that both are important. I am not arguing that both should not be pursued. I am simply arguing that they should be decoupled. In other words, I am saying that the fact that the machines are absurdly easy to hack stands on its own. It does not depend on proving that the machines were hacked in 2004, and it certainly does not depend on proving that the election was stolen in some other way.

I want to see heads roll for what happened in 2004, especially for what happened in Ohio.

But if Dems won't touch machine security because they think the issue is tainted by fear of being thought "weak and whiny" then that is a needless problem. The fact that the machines can be undetectably hacked - and even the fact that they are simply unreliable and not fit to run an election on, as is clear from the Maryland story - need have nothing to do with who won in 2004, although it has everything to do with the fact that we don't know.

[mod mom]

24. thanks for clarification.

[Joanne98]

13. I beginning to think it's the DLC job to lose elections....

[blm]

16. Or to not complain as long as CERTAIN Dems APPEAR to lose the elections.

.