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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:10 PM
Original message
TruthIsAll posts on Bradblog!!
Just noted a post on Bradblog, a remark about RFK's appearance on Hardball telling about the dangers of electronic voting. Thought some of the ERD folks might want to see that TIA seems to be alive and well and still trying to get the T out there.

Here's the post:

... TruthIsAll said on 9/27/2006 @ 3:58 pm PT...




It would be nice if RFK, Jr. asked this question:
How many votes were switched from Kerry to Bush?
4.5 million.

Assumptions:
1) The Census estimate that 125.7mm (0.30%MoE) voted in 2004 is correct. The 2004 total recorded vote was 122.3mm. Assume that the 3.4mm discrepancy is due to spoiled and/or lost ballots.

2) Allocate the 3.4mm lost/spoiled votes to Kerry (2.5mm) and Bush (0.9mm). In every presidential election, the vast majority of spoiled/lost votes occur in democratic minority districts.

3) Assume 95% of 2000 Gore and Bush voters turned out to vote in 2004.

4) Adjust the 12:22am National Exit Poll "How Voted in 2000" weights. The 41% Bush/39% Gore weights are mathematically impossible. Change to 38.2% Gore/37.8% Bush.

The new weights are calculated based on:
a) total recorded 2000 vote (Gore 51.0mm-Bush 50.5mm)
b) 0.87%/year mortality rate (3.5% over 4 years)
c) 95% turnout of 2000 Bush and Gore voters.

5) Assume 12:22am NEP vote shares are correct.

Calculations:
1)Start with the Recorded Vote count:
Bush 62.0mm
Kerry 59.0mm
Other 1.3mm

2) Allocate 3.4mm spoiled/lost votes (2.5mm to Kerry; 0.9mm to Bush):
Bush 62.9mm
Kerry 61.5mm

3)Calculate the Kerry/Bush total vote share (below):
Kerry 66.0mm (52.5%)
Bush 58.4mm (46.5%)
Other 1.3mm (1.0%)
Total 125.7mm

4) Solve for X, the switched votes:
Kerry: X = 66.0 - 61.5
Bush: -X = 58.4 - 62.9

X = 4.5mm votes were switched from Kerry to Bush.


--
NEP (adj. plausible weights, 125.7mm votes)
Voted in 2000 Demographic
Turnout:95%
Turnout Sensitivity

Voted Mix Votes Kerry Bush Other... Turnout% Kerry% Margin(mm)
No 21.77% 27.36 57% 41% 2%......90 52.76 8.25
Gore 38.24% 48.06 91% 8% 1%......95 52.52 7.59
Bush 37.83% 47.55 10% 90% 0%......98 52.38 7.20
Other 2.17% 2.72 71% 21% 8%......100 52.29 6.93
Total 100% 125.7 52.5% 46.5% 1.0%
Vote Total 125.7 66.02 58.43 1.25

Kerry margin: 7.59million

_______________________________
Actual NEP (impossible weights,122.3mm votes)
Voted Mix Votes Kerry Bush Other
No 17% 20.79 57% 41% 2%
Gore 39% 47.70 91% 8% 1%
Bush 41% 50.14 10% 90% 0%
Other 3% 3.67 71% 21% 8%
Total 100% 122.3 51.41% 47.62% 0.97%
Total 100% 122.3 62.87 58.24 1.19

Kerry margin: 4.64 million


Link: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3537
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice to see
Thanks! :)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R for us TIA admirers.
:kick:
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. How come we don't see TIA HERE anymore?
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. here.
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LiberalUprising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Watch what you say
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ccarter84 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. yea, cuz big brother is listening
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. He was very ill
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 05:58 AM by DemReadingDU
Apparently TIA must be feeling better now

edit to add, K&R
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. He he he, go TI-A, go TI-A,go TI-A
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Another TIA fan K&R'n here.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
for The Man.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. I saw some TIA comments on Pollster.com
A week or so ago. Similar to the above.
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AAARRRGGGHHH Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for the find!
I'm proud to recommend every TIA thread I see here.
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vince3 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. All the way
with TIA
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Great to see his comments
K&R
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. It was stolen
The numbers don't lie, but the liars come up with absurd numbers.

Stuff like the reluctant * responders theory that no independent party has had a chance to study because only a select few were allowed to see the data.

And that one-sided, un-reviewed theory is all they have ever presented to counter TIA.

TIA, if you are reading this you should know: we are with you to the end.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. It was stolen.

STOLEN ELECTIONS


Links for all below found here:

http://electionfraudnews.com/resources.htm



Declaration or Richard Hayes Phillips

Project Censored. No Paper Trail Left Behind. 2004 Theft

Greg Palast. Theft of Presidency

The Strange Death of American Democracy. End Game in Ohio

Complete US Exit Poll Data Confirms Net Suspicions

American Coup II Collection. "Scoop"

The Confidential Exit Poll. Kerry Wins!

The Revised Exit Poll. Kerry Loses!

History of the Debate Surrounding the 2004 Presidential Election

The Real Story of 2004 Presidential Exit Polls ...unless you saw this.

Millions of Minority Presidential Votes Lost

The Unanswered Question: Who Really Won In 2004?

Kerry Won!!! Statistical Tools Everyone Can Use

TruthIsAll - Exit Poll Analysis Collection Election Simulation & Special Sites

The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancies. S. Freeman

Response to Edison-Mitofsky Claims in Final 2004 Exit Poll

Investigating Election Fraud A Ground Breaking Study

Income and Racial Disparities. 2000 Undervotes

Whose Ballots Don't Count? Spoiled Ballots, FL 2000

One million black votes didn't count in the 2000 presidential election. 06.04

Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program, 2000. 58k Back Voters Locked Out. Greg Palast

How George Bush Won the 2004 Presidential Election

A Post-election Bandwagon Effect? Re: “False memory”

CA Recall 2003. 383,000 missing votes 10.03

DÉJÀ VU All Over Again? Hackett Loses a Squeaker, OH 2nd: The New Voting Rights Struggle 2004-2005

Poll Shock: Ohio's Special Measures 40 Point Shift

Georgia 2002 - a Major Warning

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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. It was stolen!!!!!!!!
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. Floaty Hearts for TIA!
:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :patriot: :yourock:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
16. And whose blog there did he post on ? ;)
Just 45% of Voters 'Very Confident' Bush Won Election Fair and Square

Guest blogged by Michael Collins


http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3537

So goes a portion of the argument. I have a few questions:

1) Why am I adding this question to Paul Lehto's survey? Don't get me wrong, I was glad to do so and Paul is a pleasure to work with, but why him? Why me? Why us? Do we have a total absence of reporters willing to ask these questions and write about them? Apparently so.

2) Why are the Democrats hopping on the election fraud band wagon so quickly? Dodd co-sponsoring a rescue bill is remarkable. He was the co-sponsor of the 2002 Help America Vote Act (along with Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-KY and the Democrat form the House, Stenny Hoyer, D-MD)? It must be really awful when there are heroics like this. I have no inside track, do you?

3) Back to the focus of this article and blog, how much more can the United States of America take of the Whte House and the trouble causers that they employ? We are reeling internationally, there is no consensus for real government here, and the complicity of the ruling party with the perpetrators offers a non-stop display of lock-step loyalty.

We've had enough. It's time for those who lack legitimacy to recognize that and leave. We cannot afford any more deception and suffering. The legacy we will bear is already heavy enough.

and Stevespol, you may enjoy this one... correction, you will enjoy this one (that's not a command, its a prediction;)

Comment on emergency legislation
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Right on!
Seems like there is nobody to declare TIA as wrong. The silence is uncomfortable, surely someone will come along and try to debunk the fact that the elections was stolen?

Why would anyone assume the official election numbers were correct?

And as for spoiled ballots, no one would dare claim that rich, white republican ballots would ever be on par with the despoiling of poor black American's ballots, right?

And who would claim that the NEP was so screwed up that they would call an election and miss it by enough points that the mathematicians could logically claim that such a screwup was nearly impossible?

And then further calim that if such a miscalculation had occured by the NEP, it was nothing to be concerned about? That we should ignore that because polls are no good anyway. No one would ever dare claim such things, would they?

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
19. so, does anyone understand the OP?
Seems like an uncomfortable silence often descends when it comes time to assess the content.

Why would we assume that the CPS numbers are correct? Can anyone point to a survey researcher who argues that respondents don't tend to overreport having voted?

Why would we assume that 3/4 of the spoiled ballots (however many there were) were Democratic? where did that number come from?

Why doesn't TIA address the evidence that respondents in every exit poll -- and most other polls -- have overstated having voted for the previous winner, and that this behavior affects the associated vote shares?

Since he can't answer those questions, does anyone else want to try?
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. ...crickets....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. actually, we write the scholarly research
Believe what you want, but if you have no arguments, you aren't likely to convince many people.

Here, again, is Avi Rubin in Brave New Ballot:
The many activists who definitively claimed, with no evidence, that the election had been stolen did a great disservice to everyone who had thoughtfully and seriously criticized the e-voting technology.

So, what have you got? Which side are you on?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. If that's true
...then it's pretty damn sad that someone like him has to place the blame for his lack of success on activists.

The RABA study supports us and is one part of our evidence. To say that we have presented no evidence is, once again, a sign that denial is more than a river in Egypt.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. it helps to read what he actually wrote
and it's not at all helpful to talk about Rubin's "lack of success." The outcomes are indivisible. If Rubin doesn't succeed, "activists" don't succeed either.

And there are plenty, plenty of activists who never definitively claimed that the 2004 election was stolen. There's no good reason to talk as if Rubin blamed "activists" in general for anything.

The RABA report doesn't tell us what happened in 2004. Do you really not understand what Rubin means by "definitively claimed," and how it draws a bright line between people who raise questions about 2004 and people who act like they already have the answers?

I understand the impulse to shoot the messenger, but it might be wise to count to ten when the messenger happens to be Avi Rubin. Even if you don't think that one sentence tells the whole story -- and of course it doesn't -- maybe it is telling you something important that you don't want to hear.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. flame on, dude, flame on n/t
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Wow, deleted posts
I wonder whose those belonged too?

Anyways, the RABA report was among the first bits of a long trail of evidence that lead to the declarations that the elections were stolen. Since then much, heck, a mountain of information has come out that the elections were stolen, and not just by the machines. But as it relates to 2004, the findings in the RABA report are elemental to the declarations. And, while RABA came before 2004, it does tell us what could have - and many brave souls believe did happen - in the 2004 election.

Avi knows the machines can steal votes. So there's that. Does he deny that they were used in such a manner? Has he proof the machines were not used to steal votes? I only ask you, otoh, because you seem to be a mouthpiece for him here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. I didn't think we were actually evaluating the numbers
Until your post I never looked at the OP. TIA likes to shuffle things around until the Democrat winds up ahead. He has never accepted that the preference shifted post 9/11, with women moving toward Bush and the GOP. So all the nonsense comparing 2000 to 2004 with an insistence Gore voters did not shift to Bush four years later is base ignorance. There is no other way to describe it. It would be every bit as asinine as not recognizing there has been a shift back this year, a restored gender gap, albeit one that may be fragile since it is apparently anti-Bush and anti-Iraq more than a fundamental turn in our favor.

I'm swamped with football so I'll just paste a long section from Anna Greenberg.

http://www.wvwv.org/mediaroom/view_news.cfm?id=65

Moving Beyond the Gender Gap

"The shrinking of the Democratic margin among women voters was the most important, and perhaps the least noticed, development of the 2004 election. In the two previous presidential campaigns, the Democratic candidate triumphed among women voters by 16 percentage points (Bill Clinton) and 11 points (Al Gore). In contrast, John Kerry won women voters by a mere 3 points, 51 to 48 percent. Not only did the Democratic candidate garner less support among women than in the past, but the overall size of the gender gap narrowed as Bush maintained a solid 11-point margin among men. The small gender gap is consistent with the results of the 2002 congressional elections, when Democrats and Republicans essentially broke even among women, in contrast to 1998 and 2000 when congressional Democrats won women voters by 6 and 8 points, respectively.

This development is not a happy one for progressives, because it signals the chipping away of the foundation that attached women to the Democratic Party. In the past, economic issues helped cement socially conservative, white, blue-collar women to the Democratic Party, while social issues such as support for a woman's right to choose kept more progressive, often college-educated women in the Democratic camp. As Democrats failed to compete on economic issues in the last two election cycles, they lost socially conservative downscale women largely on cultural and security issues. In the absence of an economic alternative, security and morality crowded out the issues where Democrats compete most strongly.

But this did not happen overnight; beginning in 1994, Democrats experienced a drop-off of white, social-conservative women supporters as politics became increasingly polarized around cultural issues. Of course, the growing salience of cultural issues began much earlier, as early as the 1960s when the women's movement and the backlash to societal changes mobilized actors and organizations on the left and the right, but the 1994 elections represent a low moment from which the Democrats have never recovered. The 1996 election with a strong economy, a weak Republican opponent, and a Democratic incumbent with a compelling values narrative was a temporary respite from these trends, but it was just a respite.

To address the issue of women's declining support for the Democratic Party, progressives need to cease thinking of women as a monolithic voting bloc and understand that the differences among them are fundamental and polarizing. Women cannot be approached politically as a unified set of actors with similar interests; rather, they need to be targeted as distinct groups of voters with different political preferences and agendas. Moving forward, progressives need to consider where they can increase support among like-minded women voters, where they can move persuadable women voters to the progressive side of the ledger, and how they can diminish their losses among other women. Specifically, Democrats should consider the distinct voting patterns of the following groups of women:

* Unmarried women. Unmarried women are among the most progressive voters in the electorate. They are economic populists who are socially liberal and support Democrats by wide margins. Yet, they underparticipate in politics relative to their married counterparts. In 2004, organizations such as Women's Voices, Women's Vote successfully helped increase their share of the vote in the electorate, but there is considerable room for growth.

* Older women. Older women are the quintessential swing voters. They have been splitting their vote nearly evenly between the par ties for almost a decade, and their support ebbs and flows depending on how the parties speak to them. In 2004, Kerry lost an opportunity to win older women, which probably cost him the election, by failing to speak to their very serious concerns about their long-term economic security.

* White, socially conservative women. Democrats lose white bluecollar women and white married women by large margins; in fact, these women could almost be considered Republican base voters. Yet, there are important openings with these conservative voters. They have concerns about their families that can be addressed by progressives, such as the prevalence of violence and sexual content on television, video games, and the Internet. They are pragmatic and want to protect their children, by making sure they have access to comprehensive sex education in school, and their parents, through stem cell research into chronic medical conditions. Progressives should be able stop the hemorrhage among these women by reframing what it means to care about children and families.

These strategies do not require progressives and Democrats to shift to the center on issues like support for reproductive rights, support for "traditional marriage," or the advancement of women's rights. On the contrary, there is no evidence that shifting to the center will bring in socially conservative women, who understand very well that the Democratic Party supports a woman's right to choose. Instead, Democrats need to offer a strong economic agenda for women that cuts across all of these groups, addressing concerns about health care that are fundamental to unmarried and older women and not an anathema to conservative women. Most importantly, Democrats must reframe the cultural debate, which progressives cannot win in its current incarnation."
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Thankfully, even RedState women realize their error from the 2004 election
And isn't today what matters?

From today's Billings, Gazette: http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/10/03/news/regional/7ee28c7d736ef224872571fa00210b03.txt
Tester polls better among women, while Burns draws more of his support from men.

From today's Helena, Montana newspaper: http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/10/03/helena/a01100306_3.txt

Among women, 45 percent said they would vote for Democratic legislative candidates this year, while 41 percent chose Republicans.

Nearly all of those polled who identified themselves as Democrats or Republicans said they'd be sticking with legislative candidates from their chosen party this year.

But among those who called themselves ''independents,'' 44 percent said they preferred Democratic candidates and 37 percent said they liked a Republican in the legislative races this year.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Yes, I understand it. Its easy.
Edited on Tue Oct-03-06 07:37 PM by BeFree
The fact is that the numbers TIA came up with were the product of a careful examination of all the numbers.

Seeing as you have asked a few questions about the election numbers, allow me to ask you just a few....

How can anyone have confidence in the official election numbers, given that the machines Avi warned us about were used to count somewhere around 50% of the ballots? Are you assuming that the machines didn't miscount? Or do you have facts that override any such assumption?

Historically, the black vote (now estimated at 90% democratic) has been the target of elimination from the totals, so anyone who assumes that the rich, white republican ballots would ever be so readily cast aside is not being quite aware of history as one could be.

What do you think about the idea that the NEP would make such a major miscalculation in their final report? I know, it has been described as a series of errors, but when the mathematicians looked the numbers over, they found such a series would be next to impossible for the NEP.

So what we were left with was a bunch of numbers that describe something awfully funny going down in the 2004 elections. TIA has described that 'something funny' in a way that makes sense, and with all the other ways, means, motives, and opportunities presented to bushco to actually steal the election, why then does anyone not understand that it was stolen?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-04-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. no, that isn't a fact
Edited on Wed Oct-04-06 07:30 AM by OnTheOtherHand
Here, once again, are some of the numbers that TIA carefully refuses to examine:

http://inside.bard.edu/~lindeman/surprise.html

I understand that you really, really want to agree with the guy, but if you can't engage the substance of the arguments, then you can't demonstrate any rational basis for agreeing with him. Not to single you out: no one else here has done it either.

As for your questions, we have gone down these paths many times, but on the off chance that someone new is reading, I can try yet again.

I do not have confidence in the official election numbers, as I have told you over, and over, and over again. This is not very hard. You do not need to make it so hard. Maybe an analogy would help. Suppose that someone argues: "I can prove that George W. Bush is dishonest, because I have a videotape of a space alien birthing him." We ought to be able to discuss whether the videotape has probative value without making any assumptions about whether Bush is honest or dishonest. In much this way, whether you realize it or not, when you haul in supposed assumptions about the accuracy of the vote count, you are changing the subject. And you do it over, and over, and over again. It is boring.

I have no idea what your point is about rich, white republican ballots; where did anyone assume that white and black ballots were equally likely to be cast aside?

"What do you think about the idea that the NEP would make such a major miscalculation in their final report? I know, it has been described as a series of errors, but when the mathematicians looked the numbers over, they found such a series would be next to impossible for the NEP."

I don't know what this means, and I'm not convinced that you do either. What do you mean by "their final report"? As for "the mathematicians," first of all, they don't all run in a pack, and second of all, mathematics can't tell us whether the polls could be biased. You know we have been through these arguments before. If you don't have an argument that the polls couldn't be biased, then, well, what do you have?

Unfortunately, TIA's description does not make sense, because it systematically ignores discrepant evidence, such as what I linked to above. It's too bad, because it drives a wedge between people who think TIA has proven something important, and people who know that he hasn't -- regardless of their opinions about electronic voting machines. This is (one aspect of) what Avi Rubin is trying to say.

(edit to fix typo)
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. K & R for Transparent Democracy nm
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
32. K&R for TIA!
:patriot:
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