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Lessons of Ohio and San Diego: Recounts Easily Days late and Many $$$ Short

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 10:38 PM
Original message
Lessons of Ohio and San Diego: Recounts Easily Days late and Many $$$ Short
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 11:18 PM by Land Shark
The actual experience of going in and fighting after an election is over for a recount or to contest an election is really quite educational and instructive. You learn that there's another level of rigged game, and it's the law itself in some cases -- it all just so happens to have been written 100% by incumbents, and lo and behold we have nearly 100% re-election rates for incumbents. Coincidence!!! But I've done that post-election litigation, up to an including congressional election contests like CA's 50th Congressional District, and in a nutshell here's some of the lessons learned.

In a REAL disputed election, you'll not get at these paper trails (bad) or even paper BALLOTS (better, cuz they count on the first count) IN TIME for the tight deadlines after an election -- even if the Supreme Court does NOT halt your recount OUTRIGHT. In fact, It's now more than 7 months after the special congressional election in CAlifornia's 50th CD of June 6, 2006 and we're STILL trying to get a recount or get to TOUCH our first optically scanned paper BALLOT. THe elections officials priced access to the ballots at $150,000, 8 times higher than any previous recount.

Real remedies, real protection happen PRIOR to the announcement of first results. Or they likely don't happen at all.

Fake or unreliable remedies take place after the first count. For this and other reasons, the activists in San Diego's 50th Congressional District have seen the future intended by the Holt bill (paper trails or ballots with post-election "audits"). This Holt-future simply does not work. Among other things, the precincts to be audited under the CA audit rules were selected prior to the completion of the first count and in some other places, prior even to the election itself, which defeats the purpose of the audit, and frees up the other 99% of the precincts to be counted and completed in the sloppiest or most fraudulent manner possible. I don't think any activist in San Diego involved with post-election investigation or litigation will tell you paper trails or paper ballots, recounts or audits are worth very much at all in a disputed election. They could be worth something, but pre-first reporting of results remedies are always best, and the post-election remedies will tend to be frustrated, or break down, or be improperly performed WHEN IT COUNTS THE MOST, in a disputed election where the election officials don't really want their first reported results to be shown defective.

The recent conviction of two democratic-county elections officials for rigging a nonrandom recount that should have been random in order to avoid more work of a hand recount and to engage in CYA shows that you can't trust DEMOCRATIC officials to RE-Count (as opposed to count0 DEMOCRATIC ballots!!! The human urge of CYA and avoiding the fishbowl of publicity and avoiding work easily trumps the desire for truth in elections.

RECALL the arguments after 11/04: THey made much hay of the fact that "bipartisan" election boards supervised elections in Ohio. But BOTH parties, being made of human beings, want to cover their butts, get home for thanksgiving, avoid work, and otherwise avoid a media fishbowl! Thus, we can't really, AFTER the election, TRUST ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE ORIGINAL COUNTS.

Don't put your eggs in post-election remedies like audits (most are statistical bullshit AS WRITTEN IN STATUTES and can't possibly work) or recounts that, while potentially valuable often don't actually materialize when it really counts.

And in any event, a recount is a NARROW remedy that corrects only against "counting error" and not any other kinds of error. To see what I mean, just try recounting a stuffed ballot box ten times, and I think you'll find that you get a stuffed recount result ten times as well. Feel better now???
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. A bad remedy is worse than no remedy.
And if there's anything this country needs now, it's not another bad remedy.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes, bad remedies are NOT pursued, then the false CONCLUSION is "no case here"
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 11:23 PM by Land Shark
since no lawyer filed a case. A bad remedy is another false confidence booster: If the remedy can be made bad in a subtle way, the lawyers studying a case to determine if they will take it on will see the defect and not file an otherwise meritorious case, but the journalists and pundits will either not "get" the defect in the remedy or won't Care, and they will pronounce the election CLEAN and PURE in large part because nobody contested it, and there's otherwise "no evidence of irregularities" -- since all the evidence is secret anyway, for the most part.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Like a false negative on a medical test;
"Nope, no cancer here. Relax and move along."

Deadly.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. It sounds to me like the Dem PARTY needs a new team of election lawyers in place
who are well versed in the type of fraud that ACTUALLY occurs nowadays.

I think the old team was only prepared for Florida style fraud and not for the added tactic of rigged electronic voting machines. But DAMN that Office of Voter Integrity that we all had hopes in - they never lifted a finger against ANY of the fraud - even the fraud they knew about like purged voter rolls, and registration fraud.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Even before, the way things are now

RECALL the arguments after 11/04: THey made much hay of the fact that "bipartisan" election boards supervised elections in Ohio. But BOTH parties, being made of human beings, want to cover their butts, get home for thanksgiving, avoid work, and otherwise avoid a media fishbowl! Thus, we can't really, AFTER the election, TRUST ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE ORIGINAL COUNTS.


We have tales of folks being excluded BEFORE elections. I myself was told by my DEM officials not to be bothered, and then the BoE treated me like a pariah when I asked questions.

I am sure they would be more than happy if we all just let them be.

BUT THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Is it?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Nope, it ain't gonna happen BeFree, ain't No ONE givin' up on public oversight....
you hit that one on the head.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. The problem for the Politicians is, they have been BUSTED!
Time to tell them, that, we WILL be Hand Counting the Paper Ballots and recording them totals at the precinct level. Screw Them!! They have had their fun with their make believe counting machines and their 2% audit bullshit, ITS OVER!! PERIOD!!

K&R.............
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Book 'em Dano/kster!! nt
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Hey! I'm a bank! Give me your money, and I promise
to keep track of it, within three to four per cent.

Our satisfaction is guaranteed!
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Better yet, I just robbed your bank, and got away with it
now you have to ask ME to make a new law that stops ME from doing it again. :rofl:
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Am I allowed to?
:toast:
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not a happy thread, Mr. Lehto...
but if it helps,I read everything you post and hope that through your activism improvements will be made.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Happiness is front-end loading those "safeguards" and teeth in those "remedies"
It ain't a happy situation walking into most used car dealers properties, either. But forewarned is forearmed.

The key, catnhatnh, is that the system is reeling in its death throes and unlikely, therefore, to function appropriately, but primarily because PUBLIC OVERSIGHT has been eliminated and/or designed out of the system by computerization.

Let's keep our eyes on the prize shall we: public oversight (completely). The re-introduction of the democratic species of public oversight into our elections systems then adds back the necessary checks and balances by parties (ie. citizens) who are without huge conflicts of interest -- quite unlike the elections officials who have, after the election, already stated their professional opinion about the outcome of the election and don't wish to, er, "flip flop" on that issue, and so they rig the recounts and then put out press releases saying the recount "confirmed" the a "Clean election was had".

Lordy lordy, a recount NEVER confirms that a clean election overall was had, it won't even detect a stuffed ballot box or anything else that occurs prior to the end of the FIRST count, nor does it usually disclose to us what the chain of custody was on the ballots in the weeks between the election and the recount (in the typical case). Pretty lame.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Actually extremely lame...
...by following you and others on DU I finally understand that even those who dislike the original count are vested in that count.Other than truly Draconian penalties I don't see a major change coming down the pike.Legally I see no fair remedies after a challenge.In New Hampshire we went blue but not blue enough to match exit polling...We also had a partial recount that went nowhere...Diebold, ES&S and the like have no place in a democracy-no source code-no security-no confidence....Just don't know what I as an idividual can do.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Step ONe is Transparency, transparency, get the data, transparency, oversight
Edited on Wed Jan-31-07 12:36 AM by Land Shark
followed by sunshine, transparency, mandate full data disclosure within 24 hours of request, transparency, and openness.

Good, now that our mental and democratic Windshields are finally cleared of all the bullshit that has been flying around, we can SEE our way clear to the next steps.

Transparency is the visibility that allows the information flow so that checks and balances can work.

Look, if ANY PART of the election system is secret or nontransparent, aren't YOU (assuming you are a rigger or cheater) going to move to that nontransparent area to exploit it, just like the burglar moves to the unlocked window?
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think I've Got It...
Edited on Wed Jan-31-07 12:14 AM by kpete
Anything that comes between a voter and
his/her ballot is subject to corruption


It seems to me that once again, the government/corp interests continue to take the "WE" out of "WE the people". It is win/win for them. They make millions and they get to re-elect the people who keep them making more millions. Sweet deal going to the wrong side.

thanks as always Land Shark, k
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Edited on Wed Jan-31-07 01:20 AM by btmlndfrmr
... John Powell. I can relate.

The overall vibe from your OP seems a bit paradoxical in translation compared to past iterations. I am all for "Let's keep our eyes on the prize shall we: public oversight (completely)", ...believe me.

But whats going to be the catalyst that get us there, what is going to cause this awaking of supposed apathetic state employees concerned more with turkey dinner, and Christmas shopping then accurate representation? ... two convicted state workers from Ohio? Hardly. Whats going to pull people away from the football play offs ...and lawmakers from fund-raising long enough to throw focus on this "prize"? We need a vehicle to make this change happen, and right now I'm not seeing it. I'm not disagreeing, but if we do not bring one high profile case of actual election fraud to conclusion, it's hard to see how we're ever going to resolve this.

"Hard a lee you have just come about" (one tack's often to get to the downwind leg, it's a good thing)

Regale me.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. the state employees will only improve when they are being watched
and really have no other good choice other than to perform.

step one (see reply above) transparency, instant data, transparency, don't hide the ball, complete sunshine and more transparency.

Only then will anybody be able to see the rats in the pantry but with the light they will scurry away.

While hoping for the best, we need to strategize and maximize on how WE can "be the spotlight" and not just "be the media" (which changes its focus every 30 seconds so even if the truth is told, it is quite soon forgotten)

Hope you're "game" for being the spotlight. In the countryside they often call this shinin' It gives those bureau-critters that 'deer in the headlights' look of contemplation...
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. We need commited high profile champions...Walter Cronkite types.
Edited on Wed Jan-31-07 01:33 AM by btmlndfrmr
The solution is simple, to implement ...not so much.

Yes, I am game.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. High profile has its downsides
Every high-profiler of the situation has been attacked and vilified by.....
Just ask LS.

This is not a task - restoration of our rights - that any one of us should leave to another. It is up to each of us to take individual actions. Believe me, the force will be on your side as your actions increase.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. you are really mister cheerful these days
chin up pal.

K & R'd even if you're trying to pull me off my happy cloud.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. OK, Stella, to be nice I'll say it: "Stay High" see me when you're ready to come down...
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Hey
What is this. . .?

Ground control to spaceshot stella or something?

Next thing you'll be threatening to get me a hematite anklet like an old friend used to do.

Sorry I know these circumstance are intensely onerous and difficult and I really respect all your intrepid and most noble efforts.

I just was trying to lighten you up a little. Whoops.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry said much of the election fraud has been LEGALIZED and that is the problem.
Edited on Thu Feb-01-07 04:38 PM by blm
This is why I say the DNC's Office of Voter Integrity needs to spend their four years COUNTERING all the tactics used by the RNC to suppress and subvert the votes and purge voter rolls, and to SECURE the election process BEFORE the votes are cast and secure and videotape every room that has a ballot in it to be counted.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-01-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. that point has some merit, but see my new post on the American Creed
Edited on Thu Feb-01-07 05:05 PM by Land Shark
it is not Kerry's personal decision, i don't think, of whether or not to contest, a strong argument can be made that it is a public obligation...

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x466365
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