Clinton proposes new federal boondoggle in the form of "election reform"

[kster]

Posted by: livvy Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x468987



by Nancy Tobi

Someone asking for our vote in her run for President ought to know better.

But Senator Clinton hasn't seemed to pay attention to the damage wrought to the nation's election systems by the last federal fiasco of legislation (the Help America Vote Act - HAVA) . Following in the footsteps of now jailbird former Congressman Bob Ney, chief architect of that piece of disastrous legislation, and Congressman Rush Holt - tone deaf to activist outcry about his ill-fated HAVA II legislative proposal, Senator Clinton has now re-introduced her own technoelection boondoggle. Like the Holt Bill, Clinton's Orwellian-named "Count Every Vote" proposal is lauded by People for the American Way, a "liberal" and "progressive" organization that is hanging its hat on high cost and untested electo-technology that is so complex it promises to completely remove the American voter from the scenario.

Because here is the bottom line, my friends: if the American voter can not even understand, nevermind OBSERVE, how our votes are being cast and counted, our participation in the so-called electoral process is irrelevent.

Fool me once, shame on me. HAVA fooled us all. Don't be fooled again. The solution to our national electoral crisis - which imperils the democratic processes that support our American Republic - does NOT lie in the hands or solutions of the Federal government. It lies in the hands of our local and state election officials. It lies in the hands of our state legislatures, which have the responsibility, the duty, and the power to ensure that our community-based and democratic elections have integrity, accuracy, reliability, and are fully transparent so that every aspect of the voting system is fully observable for citizen oversight.

If our legislature fails in its duties, and if our state and local election officials also fail in their duties, then we will replace them.



http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_nancy_to_070309_clinton_proposes_new.htm

[napi21]

1. OK, so read the posting at this link and tell me just what part you

disagree with.

http://clinton.senate.gov/~clinton/news/2005/2005217501.html

Here's just a clip:

The Count Every Vote Act of 2005 will provide a voter verified paper ballot for every vote cast in electronic voting machines and ensures access to voter verification for all citizens, including language minority voters, illiterate voters and voters with disabilities. The bill mandates that this ballot be the official ballot for purposes of a recount. The bill sets a uniform standard for provisional ballots so that every qualified voter will know their votes are treated equally, and requires the Federal Election Assistance Commission to issue standards that ensure uniform access to voting machines and trained election personnel in every community. The bill also improves security measures for electronic voting machines.

To encourage more citizens to exercise their right to vote, the Count Every Vote Act designates Election Day a federal holiday and requires early voting in each state. The bill also enacts "no-excuse" absentee balloting, enacts fair and uniform voter registration and identification, and requires states to allow citizens to register to vote on Election Day. It also requires the Election Assistance Commission to work with states to reduce wait times for voters at polling places. In addition, the legislation restores voting rights for felons who have repaid their debt to society.

The Count Every Vote Act also includes measures to protect voters from deceptive practices and conflicts of interest that harm voter trust in the integrity of the system. In particular, the bill restricts the ability of chief state election officials as well as owners and senior managers of voting machine manufacturers to engage in certain kinds of political activity. The bill also makes it a federal crime to commit deceptive practices, such as sending flyers into minority neighborhoods telling voters the wrong voting date, and makes these practices a felony punishable by up to a year of imprisonment.

[kster]

2. The Politicians know we are on to them, yet

they continue to leave out one important thing, that the people have the right to Hand Count All the Optiscan Ballots after the election, and not just because a random audit triggered it.


A Full Hand Count should be triggered two ways:

1)A random audit triggered it, or,

2)A group of peolple made arrangements to do a Full Hand Count


I don't want to pick on any ONE Politician, because they all leave this little part out. :)

[napi21]

3. Perhapse I shouldn't assume ANYTHING, but Part of the current law

says there will be an auto recout if thevote margin is at or below a certain %. I'm not sure why, but every thing I've read says recounts are VERY EXPENSIVE, so I am willing to go along with some specific triggers.

You mentioned random audits, and you don't LIKE them. You want a full recount. Random audits are the way EVERY accountant performs a year end audit. Do you realize how they work? Depending on the size of what you are auditing (more in the sample in a large voting district v/s ;ess in a smaller one), you select say, 10% or 20% of the total votes. You manually recount the sample, and if there are NO discrepancies, you say all is fine. If there is ONE error,you take a larger sample, and if MORE errors are found, you do a complete recount (audit). Believe me, it works well that way. I've done that same thing for 40+ years, and NEVER missed a problem!

[kster]

5. Not trying to be a smart guy, but why

should I be forced to trust napi21, when I can simply Hand Count all the Paper Ballots, I don't mind if you audit the ballots, Why should you mind if I Hand Count all the Ballots?

[OnTheOtherHand]

6. what about if these guys hand count all the ballots?

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blfloridagopmob.htm

I'm saving bandwidth by not embedding the image, but it's the bozos who shut down the Miami-Dade recount back in 2000. I'm sure they wouldn't mind counting ballots themselves, however, if circumstances warranted. Hey, what could go wrong?

Not to answer for napi, but I wouldn't oppose an optional hand count provision, if you can figure out how to make it work. "Why should you mind if I Hand Count all the Ballots?" isn't going to work, as far as I can see.

[kster]

7. Offer to Bush: Hand count, then meet to show unity

I propose a way to settle this matter with finality and justice.
First, we should complete hand counts already begun in Palm Beach, Dade, & Broward Counties to determine the true intentions based on an objective evaluation of their ballots. Observers and participants from both parties should be present in every counting room as required under Florida law. If this happens, I will abide by the result, and I will take no legal action to challenge the result.

I am also prepared, if Gov. Bush prefers, to include in this recount all the counties in the entire state of Florida. I would also be willing to abide by that result. We believe the count can be completed within seven days of the time it starts.

Second, I propose that Gov. Bush and I meet personally, before the vote count is finished, not to negotiate, but to improve the tone of our dialogue in America.

Shortly after the results are known, we should both come together for another meeting to reaffirm our national unity.

Source: Statement by Al Gore on Florida recount Nov 15, 2000

http://www.issues2002.org/2008/Al_Gore_Principles_+_Values.htm#Florida_Recount

The People need to Police the Ballot COUNTING from the get go, to prevent this from ever happening again.

[OnTheOtherHand]

14. Gore got shafted in the courts

The election officials were ready to do the recount expeditiously and correctly, as far as I can tell. Of course I wouldn't want to go back to punch cards.

[napi21]

8. Because the cost of a total recount is very high! I hat to say this, but

WHERE are yu going to find the $$? And don't bother to say, "Hey, I'd do it free", buecause we'd end up with a whole lot of people who have no idea what they're doing, just creating another number we can't trust!

I'mnotsure how many people they employ to do a total recount, but think back to the last election. Many reports stated that it was costing $250,000 to $700,000 depending on the size of the district. WE may all feel that no price is too high to guarantee an accurate election, but that money has to come from somewhere. Most likely, the areas thathave problems as the same ones that don't have the money!

You don't have to trust me. Ask ANY accountant, from any background, in any State or town, and they will confirm that random is the way all audits have been done for more years than I am old, and THEY are comfortable with the accuracy of the process.

[kster]

9. We could ask President * maybe he has some answers

One of the ironies of Bush's legal attempt to prevent hand counting of voters' ballots in Florida is that he spent the last months of the campaign telling the people that he trusts them while Al Gore trusts the federal government. Yet, today, he's doing exactly the opposite, calling upon the federal government to void the hand counted votes of the people. Now, comes another irony, another example of Bush hypocrisy. The core of Bush's law suit against the state of Florida is that a machine count of the votes is more accurate than a hand count, and a hand count will simply introduce inaccuracies into the counting process. Yet, two years ago in Texas, Bush signed a bill into law that did just the opposite, affirming that a hand count is more accurate than a machine count. Here is the relevant passage: "(d) If different counting methods are chosen under Section 214.042(a) among multiple requests for a recount of electronic voting system results, only one method may be used in the recount. A manual recount shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount and an electronic recount using a corrected program shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount." Clearly, Bush will say and do anything to win, even contradict his own recorded beliefs. --Politex, 11/11/00



http://www.newsmakingnews.com/votehandcount.htm

[napi21]

10. Shrub's opposing statements don't surprise me in the least!

He simply says what the people he's speaking to at the time want to hear.

My argument in favor ofrandomaudits has nothing to do with the Feds though. Thisis really a proven method to assess the validity of a process.

[livvy]

11. Expensive? Are you sure you really want to talk about that?

How much money has been wasted on these stupid machines that have been partially responsible for having two elections stolen from rational, sane, fiscally responsible, compassionate, diplomatic, intelligent candidates?

How much money has it cost us as a result? We're in debt up to our eyeballs as a nation, the middle class is evaporating like a puddle of water when the sun comes out, and the poor are dust just waiting for a strong breeze to blow them away. Corporations make and break the laws, our Congress critters are spending valuable time trying to sort out and repair our shredded Constitution and Bill of Rights, and we will be caring for the physical and emotional needs from the battered veterans of the lying weasel's great adventure in nation building and history making, which we all hopefully realize by now was really just another moneymaking scheme for the same corporations who don't contribute their fair share in return.

Then we have the 3,190 lives that no amount of money can ever replace.


Kathy Dopp did a study of the kind of meaningful audits that would have to be in place to accurately check the machine count. An explanation and links to her data are here:
http://electionarchive.org/

If audits are to be mandatory, I'd much rather see the op scans audit the hand-counted totals.

It's time for an overhaul. I have a hard time putting a price tag on the voice of the People. I do think when the voice of the People is not honored, it can be quite costly in ways that are beyond a price tag.

[OnTheOtherHand]

4. just to bring this up to date

Another Congress, another bill....

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=270254&&

Most of the content is the same, although I note that the proposed penalty for deceptive vote suppression is now up to five years in prison.

Nancy Tobi can offer whatever substantive criticisms she likes, but until she can make it through an entire article without gratuitous innuendo, I won't pay much attention.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

12. a "chicken in every pot" bill, election reform on steroids

This is not an Election Integrity bill, it is a "chicken in every pot" bill.

I guess you could say it has all the ingrediants of a real "Cluster Cluck".

The Clinton bill is Election Reform on Steroids.

Not pretty.

This is the kind of legislation I call "Election Deform".


Initially, it appears that this bill is about requiring voter verified paper ballots
and also preventing voter supression.

BUT - BUT -

The Clinton (reminds me of her Health Care Plan that failed) Election Bill
- would require Same Day Registration in ALL STATES
- would require Early Voting in ALL STATES
- would require no excuse Absentee by mail voting in ALL STATES

HEY! All STATES aren't ready for this!

Further, this creates a GIGANTIC DEMAND for Touchscreens/DRES and Electronic Poll Books.

Folks in states like mine that have early voting know:

-early voting creates demand for touch-screen/direct record voting machines
-how hard it is to convince election officials that Touchscreens/DRES are not necessary to handle those dozens or hundreds of different ballot styles.
-counties with lots of precincts will be compelled to use Electronic Poll books in order to be able
to verify voter registration for folks from dozens to hundreds of different precincts.

Too much all at once

Foks in states that have Same Day Registration know:

-creates a demand for electronic poll books.
-use of electronic poll books gives thousands of people access to editing voter registration records.
-that this is something to go into gradually, not all 50 states at once.
-that you need at least one extra poll worker per voting location to handle the overflow.

Denial of Service:

States that have had problems with electronic voting have suffered the most during early voting.
States dependent on electronic poll books have experienced a denial of service and long lines, even when the voting systems were optical scan.

Judgement?

The Clinton Bill has persuaded me that perhaps Senator Clinton really did believe she was doing the right thing by voting for the Iraq War, (as she still believes is the right thing), and that
she probably believes that this bill is the right thing.

I now have to say that IF Senator Clinton won the primary, knowing what I know now,
I would NOT vote for her, after seeing this piece of legislation.

This bill, and its real life (un-intended but certain) consequences it would have on our elections,
tells me volumes about Ms. Clinton.

This is a superficially attractive bill with horrible unintended consequences.

[OnTheOtherHand]

15. yeah, the early voting thing bugs me...

Some of the other things bug me, too, but that especially. The annoying thing about early voting is that it seems that people keep supposing that it will extend the franchise (increase turnout by making it easier to vote), but so far all the research I've seen says that it basically doesn't. (I'm behind, so maybe there is encouraging news on that -- but even if there is, I really doubt that Hillary Clinton is monitoring it.) And even if early voting has some positives, it definitely has negatives.

Same Day Registration does seem actually to increase turnout, so in that sense I understand why Clinton would support it. But as you say, given all the ranting about "voter fraud" even if it almost never happens, it's bound to create pressures for statewide high-speed, instamatic, technotronic lists. Registration lists, that is. Personally, I feel I'm on enough shit lists already.

I haven't read the bill, so I'm not taking a position on it right now -- but it does seem to try to do way too much.

[BeFree]

13. I guess

That the politicians really don't want our votes to be counted as cast. Shoot, they could make it all so simple but they don't: they make it complicated and there must be a reason for that.

The "money is an issue" bs is just that, bs. They spent nearly $4 billion in the last four years.

No, what the problem is is that if our votes are counted correctly some big politicos will be looking for work, and they can't have that.

But following the conversation here surprises me that so many here seem to be doing the big politicos footwork for them!