SCOTLAND GAVE UP HAND COUNTING IN MAY 2007

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

BECAUSE THEY ADOPTED INSTANT RUNOFF, AKA SINGLE TRANSFERRABLE BALLOT.

HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS R.I.P.

[muriel_volestrangler]

1. STV is a nightmare without electronic counting

And that was for their local council elections - though since the Scottish Parliament was being voted on at the same time, they did electronic counting for that too. If it's any consolation, the recommendation was that electronic counting only be used when the STV local council elections are involved.

And, on a technical note, it wasn't 'instant runoff' - the voting districts were to elect multiple councillors (typically 3 or 4), not just one. Instant runoff voting is STV, but with only 1 winner - so that only the losers needs their votes redistributed. Instant runoff is therefore much easier to count by hand, since it doesn't involve fractional votes. Full STV involves fractions of a winning candidates' votes getting redistributed, and that's why you need a computer, or incredibly patient and accurate counters and mathematicians.

[diva77]

2. what is STV? n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. Single Transferable Vote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote

The Single Transferable Vote (STV) is a form of preferential voting in multi-member constituencies.

Preferential voting means that instead of casting a single vote for a single candidate, a voter can express a list of preferences. Votes are cast by putting a '1' in the column next to the voter's preferred candidate, a '2' beside their second favourite candidate and so on until they no longer wish to express a preference. Voters may vote for candidates within parties and across parties as well as for independents.

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/votingsystems/stvi.htm

Voting in it is quite easy; but the details of how votes are redistributed from elected or eliminated candidates is quite complicated - which is why many systems prefer to do it in a computer.

For an example in practice, from the Northern Ireland Assembly elections:

http://election.press.net/nistv.html

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

8. Cary NC couldn't count 3,000 IRV ballots accurately

It may be "easier", but it isn't easy and it isn't transparent.

Instant Runoff Voting isn't "instant" either.

Thanks to IRV, both Pierce County Washington and San Francisco CA are using uncertified untested
Sequoia voting software to "count" the IRV votes.

This counting cannot be easily viewed by the voters. Voters have to "Trust" the software,
which is a dirty idea.

SF puts data from the ballots online, but this isn't actual ballot images, but numbers representing the voted data.

Again, voters having to "trust" but not verify.

Counting IRV is not straight forward because it is not an additive function - each individual ballot has to be considered, then the choices have to be "reallocated" .

[kster]

4. You just can't get over it, can you

hand counted paper ballots WILL BE coming to a town near you, whether its a simple hand count audit or a full hand count of the paper ballots AT THE POLLING PLACE. it is GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

The secret vote count scam IS UP!! Only a matter of time, Only a matter of time my friend.

:) K&R

[althecat]

5. Well said Kevin

What exactly is WYVBC doing in this forum anyway? Always been a mystery to me...

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

6. for starters, I've more than earned right to be in this forum

1. led activism in my state to get paper ballots.
2. sued Diebold.
3. fought lobbyists of NC ACC who tried to overturn the paper ballot law.
4. have frequently had opeds published in major NC papers in support of voter verified paper ballots
5. have assisted other states with their efforts by sharing information and research.

If you want hand counted paper ballots, you have to do more than post the same thing over and over
in the DU forum. You have to actually work at it, start a movement, write, lead, communicate, mobilize, research, educate. And it helps to provide up to date information.

Its sad to point to Scotland for hand counted paper ballots, but it proves one point - that country had the best voting method available, and they were conned into giving it up, all for "Single Transferrable Vote", a form of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)

Instant Runoff Voting is being peddled in the US hard and heavy, and so the message today and for the future should be - if you want hand counted paper ballots, then reject IRV.

Again, pay attention - SCOTLAND USED TO HAVE HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS.
SCOTLAND WAS CONNED INTO TRADING HCPB FOR THE SINGLE TRANSFERRABLE VOTE AND VOTING MACHINES.

Hopefully someone will come away from this message with that warning - keep elections simple.
Don't adopt IRV or STV or any of these other ranking schemes.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

22. you love you some Tombstone Pizza

don't ya

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

7. better try to keep them where they are, and better learn who the enemies of HCPB are

the enemies of HCPB went to Scotland, and they got rid of hand counted paper ballots.

If you want HCPB, you have to do some work.

Do you have a group?
Do you lead?
DO you get Op/eds published?
Do you write (something besides simplistic slogans at DU)?
Do you have hand counted paper ballots in your jurisdiction?
How long have you been posting the same thing over and over and over, not realizing that your model
of HCPB was outdated?

[kster]

delete

[kster]

10. Your kids have the right to hand count the paper ballots before

them ballots get smuggled out of their neighborhood? Do you agree? I personally think they have that right, but do you believe your kids have that right, and if you believe that they have the right to hand count any and all of those paper ballots, you should fight for a procedure to be put in place that affords them that right.

If you think that your kids should not have the right to a hand count audit/full hand count of the paper ballots, whether it be an small hand count audit or a full hand count, AT THE POLLING PLACE, PLEASE EXPLAIN, WHY? :)

[ShadyShenanigans]

15. You appear to be against hand counted paper ballots

Can't optical scanners be rigged too? How do you know that the "verified voting" you advocate for won't simply be rubber stamping?

[OnTheOtherHand]

17. only if you didn't read the post, or...

if you think the author went to Scotland.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OnTheOtherHand]

20. well, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt....

I'm done.

Strangely, you weren't.

[troubleinwinter]

21. I kinda doubt that he's really done.

Tomstoned again- three of his Tombstoned 'personalities' in this thread alone, on top of five previously TSed IDs.

Will eight of these give him a hint?

"You guys are awful people. You are obfuscators and liars.", "For some reason my username wasn't working. Maybe DU doesn't want me here?"

Somehow I doubt he'll get the granite hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

19. enjoy your cement pizza

You keep coming back, and you keep getting this:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

9. KSTER, please let us know when you get HCPB in your home town

rather than try to shoot other people down, tell us all about your successes.

[kster]

11. Your kids have the right to hand count the paper ballots before

them ballots get smuggled out of their neighborhood? Do you agree? I personally think they have that right, but do you believe your kids have that right, and if you believe that they have the right to hand count any and all of those paper ballots, you should fight for a procedure to be put in place that affords them that right.

If you think that your kids should not have the right to a hand count audit/full hand count of the paper ballots, whether it be an small hand count audit or a full hand count, AT THE POLLING PLACE, PLEASE EXPLAIN, WHY?

[eridani]

12. Because internets BS artists would rather spew about it than actually organize n/t

[Prepostericity]

13. this thread was very enlightening n/t

[eridani]

23. Why don't you tell us all how you have implemented this in your own county? n/t

[Wilms]

16. .