Look! Bev and BBV stormed Florida today!

[Generic Other]

NOV 30 2004: Today's lawsuit was filed naming Teresa LaPore as defendant, citing her for failure to comply with the Black Box Voting public records request of Nov. 2, 2004.

Black Box Voting filed the lawsuit this morning in Palm Beach County, served it per Florida law on LaPore's attorney. Black Box Voting then made a surprise visit to the podium at the Florida State Association of Supervisors of Elections meeting held today in Orlando, where LaPore was scheduled to make a speech on records retention.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/#lawsuit2

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Your contributions at work.... GO BEV!!

[Paradise]

17. Time to ante up, again. No amount is too small.

Please! http://www.eservicescorp.com/form.aspx?fID=912 Thank you.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

103. Kick this as hard as you can if you ever wanted freedom.

Kick this. This is all we hoped for this is what the world needs tied up in a bow. For the holiday this is what the world needs now. entire world Peace. Kick this if you ever thought you were free. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this every chance you get least you wined up kicking the damn thing for ever. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this. this is the one little bit of information that can save the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

I may have bargained a solid argument to avoid getting stuck in this damn contraption.

[demobabe]

34. No, actually, this is REALLY REALLY BAD.

Anybody who has dealt with Southern courts and judges knows that Bev Harris just lost any chance of accomplishing ANYTHING with these folks. ANY cooperation these folks may have given her will GO AWAY. ANY CHANCE of getting LEGITIMATE FACTS is most likely COMPLETELY GONE.

However, it will make good footage to sell her movie, and good hype to ask you for more money for you to buy it - after soliciting donations to make it.

I'm serious, folks: the credibility of the whole issue of voting recount, concern of vote fraud is going STRAIGHT DOWN THE TOILET with this kind of grandstanding. This will discredit the work done by many legitimate groups.

She's making us all look like idiots.

All the lower court judge needs to do is rule against Bev, et al, and then you need to appeal. And the judges tend to protect each other, which means they'll most likely uphold the lower court ruling. If she has 93 of these cases lined up, they can all do the same. The next court can do the same.

You guys have more cash to support more fruitless lawsuits?

This is the kind of prank you pull during a political event or a rally. This is NOT the kind of event you pull in conjunction with legal issues. She could easily be arrested for harrassment at this point, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these folks get no contact orders on Bev Harris based on this incident.

You can all call me NUTS for saying all this, all I ask is that you keep my words in mind when this all falls apart. I wish no ill will on Bev Harris, but these pranks are going to make losers of us all.

[New Earth]

39. omg please

pranks? :eyes:

[SomthingsGotaGive]

56. OMG you are going to have 1000 posts in less than 30 days !!

Yes pranks.

The kind of pranks you pull when you are desperate.

Kinda like Andy getting a buddy to get him passed Randi Rodes' call screener.

Dumb pranks that make BBV look bad.

[pacalo]

84. Private investigators get the job done when they operate incognito.

And I find your "OMG you are going to have 1000 posts in less than 30 days!!" comment rather telling -- it's usually the freepers who are obsessed with upping their post counts in that manner.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

92. What ?

Are you calling me a freeper in some ways the rules allow?

I often check how long a poster has been a member before I post to get a sense of how much DU experience they have then weigh the content accordingly.

This poster has 600+ posts in 14 days.

Thats over 42 posts a day. I was shocked thats all.

[symbolman]

98. WHY did he have to do that?

I know Randi, she's great and straight up.. all he had to do is tell her what he wanted to talk about..

what was the deal with that?

PS, I like your questions.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

119. I'm Not sure but I used to do a radio show here in Toronto....

I recognized it as a cheap stunt right away.

Randi handled the situation as best she could and it seems judging by todays broadcast she holds no hard feelings. It still sounded bad at the Time.


As far as my questions go, I understand if you can't or don't want to answer them. It seems nobody does.

Thanks

S.

[Trillo]

40. Your take is interesting...

That egos (leading to failing to cooperate) are more important than following the law; surely your scenario seems human. But there's one logistical error with your line of reasoning: when the requests for information were originally made, there was no cooperation either! (repeat, this is before all the egos get all blown up)

Perhaps it's simpler than your appeals to humanity's darker side: criminals just don't like to follow the law?

[demobabe]

78. I would like to think there is a logistical error in my reasoning

I mean, I want to agree with you 100% - had I not been through some really horrid stuff in courts down there. It's unfathomable the way the law works there, and I wish I could change it. Or at least have it work in a way that was more fair.

Here's the rub:

1. Theresa LePore provided documents in the FOIA request. Were they complete? Bev Harris says no, hence the lawsuit. But LePore did deliver documents, flawed or not. In the court, that will be seen as cooperation, unfortunately.

2. Bev Harris made a big scene "serving" LePore the lawsuit by breaking into a meeting, taking over the microphone, and generally causing a scene. From what I know about process serving, if you're a party in a lawsuit, you can't serve your suit on the other side. So if that's correct, then this really was just a stunt. But let's assume I'm wrong and give Bev the benefit of the doubt.

Most likely what the judge will do is look at the complaint, and if there is missing information, order LePore to provide it. I'm sure LePore will provide whatever will "legally" please the court - regardless if it's completely made up or not. At that point, it's going to be pretty hard to prove that the data is not correct. But LePore will have complied with the court, and Bev Harris - someone who in their eyes isn't "from around these parts," who breaks into meetings - perhaps trespassing, stalking, or harassing "poor little Ms. LePore" will get the stink eye from the court.

These courts are Republican packed, and they stand up for their own. From experience, I know whatever judge she gets, unless she lucks out and gets a Democrat (unlikely), she isn't going to get very far. If LePore countersues, it could even be worse.

[lonestarnot]

43. Grandstanding my ass... they fail to produce requested info

in a timely fashion to requests under the Freedom of Information Act, and a suit needed to be filed to compel production of the requested info, equip, whatevers. They weren't cooperating anyway...Looks like she and the 17K lawyers are gett'n busy on an expedited basis! YAHOO!

[demobabe]

80. That doesn't justify the public scene she made.

They DID produce some information from what I remember Bev Harris posting. Whether or not it was complete or accurate, that's a different story.

So, file lawsuit, serve it on their lawyer, fine. No problem with that. That's the way to go.

Break into meeting, cause commotion, serve a suit to the other party (which i don't think is legal - has to be someone who isn't a party to serve the papers) and videotape it all for film later = grandstanding.

[Vidar]

110. Precisely what we need. Anything but what you call "grandstanding"

gets swept under the rug.

[truehawk]

48. It is SOP, After the Order to Show Cause comes the Motion to Compel

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. Oh puhleeze. Florida is not the South. Palm Beach is more NY than South

Only the rural areas are the South. The rest is either midwestern or east coast - culturewise.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

83. Lots of transplanted NYers there, including my angry parents! :) n/t

[harmonyguy]

64. Respectfully disagree.

While it's healthy to examine this in different lights, as I understand it, the amount of co-operation that might be lost from this has not exactly been overwhelming.

I, for one, applaude what Bev, Andy and Kathleen (and all others) are doing. They have the intestinal fortitude to do in their own names, what the rest of us (myself included) who anonymously hide behind our screen-names, simply don't have the courage to do. It's only appropriate that those with the courage to do the face-to-face stuff, decide on the actions they will take.

While I agree that any unorthodox action always has the potential to backfire, one sometimes has to fight fire with, well, dare I say it, one tough lady.

I disagree that she makes us look like idiots.
Perhaps, consider it this way...
Courteous emails, faxes,letters and phone calls have not always been successful in eliciting suitable accountability from many of these public servants.

Well, accountability to the people now has a face. It's not the face of the politicians; it's not the face of the vendors; it's not the face of the election supervisors - it's the face of an individual. Now, I'm sure that election supervisors don't like being embarassed, but since getting legitimate facts from them has apparently proven to be so difficult, perhaps appealing to their emotions in this way is just the thing that will prompt them to realize that they ARE public servants, and that the public is asking them to account for their actions.

When all else failed to produce a satisfactory answer the CBS program 60 Minutes has used the ambush technique very successfully, in order to aquire information from an uncooperative source. If I recall, there is no shortage of companies who dread the though of Dan Rather coming through the door.

Perhaps election supervisors will realize that there IS someone with the courage to ask them to actually do their job.

Accountability should be automatic, but sometimes it has to be encouraged in more dramatic ways.

One man's opinion - your mileage may vary.
HG

[Carolab]

72. LaPore is FLOCO

Cubia mafia. Some "election supervisor". You need to read more.

[harmonyguy]

133. I read lots, thanks.

What I'd really like to read is a link to something that closely resembles evidence of this claim.
HG;-)

[KAZ]

68. Will the Mods please rid us of this crap....

I'm getting tired of reading it. Every frickin forum. It's just a purposeful distraction.

[Mojorabbit]

74. I hate to say this but

demobabe is right. I live in Orlando and it is still very much a good ole boys type of place. I hate for my first post to be such a bummer but after lurking for a looong time this post was one I could not pass up to comment on.
I hope I am wrong but I really think it was not the best thing to do no matter how good it must have felt to do it.
Sigh,
Mojorabbit

[SomthingsGotaGive]

82. Hi Mojorabbit

Welcome to DU :toast:

It takes a rabbit full of mojo to post so boldly right out of the block.

Glad to see you.

[Mojorabbit]

90. Thanks SomthingsGotaGive

for the welcome. Not bold really. From personal experience in local politics here memories are long and slights are not forgotten. More gets done behind the scenes. Then again there does come a time for up front and in your face and that is good to if done right.
Mojorabbit

[The Wielding Truth]

88. Hello, Karen Hughes, Trolling again. I see.

[DemonFighterLives]

109. Perhaps she's tired of having the shades pulled

Doors slammed and the voting records discarded in the dumpster.

Go Bev! This is what Democracy looks like!
It can in no way be as bad as the thugs who stopped the recount in 2000. They lacked decorum as well.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

115. you are fucking nuts!!!!....go away

[symbolman]

127. Are you sure?

Sounds like you are waffling on this one :)

[Maraya1969]

136. Oh go back to bed

and wake up with a better attitude x(

[mountainvue]

145. She didn't "break in" to anything.

It was a public hearing.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

93. Kick this to every one now.

Kick this. This is all we hoped for this is what the world needs tied up in a bow. For the holiday this is what the world needs now. entire world Peace. Kick this if you ever thought you were free. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this every chance you get least you wined up kicking the damn thing for ever. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

Kick this. this is the one little bit of information that can save the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...2&mesg_id=79652

I may have bargained a solid argument to avoid getting stuck in this damn contraption.

[greenmutha]

2. Wa Hoo again! Today's news just gets better & better! n/t

[s-cubed]

6. Bev for Time's Woman of the Year!

[proudtobeadem]

18. I'll second that!

[propagandafreegal]

33. Third!

She is awesome.

[lonestarnot]

And The Motion is Kerried! Yahoozer!

[lonestarnot]

45. GO BEV GO BEV GO BEV GO BEV GO BEV GO BEV GO BEV

Wish I were either in Florida or Ohio one....

[tbuddha]

3. AWESOME!!!!!

[ailsagirl]

4. Thanks for posting that-- wonder if they got it on video??

[Generic Other]

5. This is what democracy looks like!

Yeah. Go Bev, Andy and Katherine. You all have more balls than one would expect to find on two women and one man! I hope this scene makes it into Votergate--the movie!

[LiberalAndProud]

7. Goggling for a report.

Surely this made the news?

[Blue in the face]

8. My favorite part

I especially liked this:

Harris went onto the podium and introduced herself to the crowd. "I know I'm interrupting. This will only take a minute." She turned to LaPore, "Since we can't get your attention any other way, I'm serving you with a courtesy copy of the lawsuit we served on your office this morning."

Stephenson stood up in front of the crowd of perhaps 200 Florida elections officials.

"This was a courtesy call on Ms. LaPore for failing to produce public records," he said. "For any of you who have not complied, we have more of these coming."

Black Box Voting has identified 13 Florida counties who have earned litigation due to failure to comply with public records requests.

The elections officials erupted into deafening shouts, boos, gavel-pounding, and then Wynne stepped up smack dab in front of the crowd, took a sturdy stance and panned the crowd with her video camera.

"This is what democracy looks like," she said, as the officials scowled and shouted for the sergeant at arms.



# # # # #



These people have no sense of decency or morality, they only respond to force. Go get 'em, Bev, Kathleen, Joan, Andy et al. I am so inspired by the fearlessness and dedication they have shown to nailing the thieves who are stealing our democracy!

[rockedthevoteinMA]

9. Right on!! n/t

[BlueDog2u]

14. Sounds to me like these honorable public servants

are fraidy cats.


Way to go, BBV!

[Quakerfriend]

15. You go Bev!

This put me in stitches!

[masaka___]

31. Wow,

Bev is So Amazingly Brave.

Bev, if you come across this comment, know that I pray for your well-being and that I'm doing my part by "being the media" and getting the word out about electile disfunction. I've given CDs out with the votergate movie on it, and I'm putting up signs in conspicuous places. I even seek out random cars w/ W'04 stickers and put special flyers on their windshields for their drivers to read.

Justice will be served.

[symbolman]

38. Thanks for promoting our movie

"Electile Dysfunction" - it's a premium at Buzzflash right now..

I hope you don't think we associated with BBV because we aren't, and I've made that very clear..

but thanks for the promotion anyway...

[Democrat Dragon]

52. Hi! I'm new here

But I've been a lurker since the debates.

Anyway, I cetainly hope that Bev has some protection. She is very brave, but I think she should have called out a state-wide dumpster diving of poll tapes. But I fear they've all been shrededd now. :-(

[Left Brain]

85. Good point DD; however

methinks should there be receipts missing and/or post-dated on a grand scale it will be pretty damning evidence in itself.

Welcome to DU from one longtime lurking newbie to another!

GO BEV!

[lonestarnot]

47. OH THIS IS SWEET!

I AM JUICED ... I would have paid money to be in that room!

[catnhatnh]

10. Yep...and it gets better.....

On her site today Bev pledged up to 93 more lawsuits for failure to provide FOI request info (13 counties in Florida and 80 in Ohio)...check it out

http://blackboxvoting.org/palm-beach-county-lawsuit.html

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

13. Lawsuits Did Wonders For Al Gore

Sounds pretty useless to me. Chance for some lawyers to make $$, that's about it.

[FullCountNotRecount]

16. County violated a records request and they need to be sanctioned

You heard about the original computer tapes from election day being thrown in the trash up in Volusia County? The copies made by the election commission... They are gathering better evidence than Gore had.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

20. What would you suggest, Sunshine?

More bending over?

[BeFree]

24. Well, OCD

If you had an inkling of what we all know about Bev and the BBV, you'd know better than to say something so useless.

&&&&&&&&&&&

Good ol' Bev & Andy & Kathleen. What they are doing is an inspiration for anyboby who even once considered being active in our democracy. And more people being active in our democracy is the only thing that will save it. As Edward Abbey said: "The only cure for an ill democracy is more democracy"

Bless you, Bev etal. Oh how I wished I could be there with you in Florida, busting the balls of those who would steal our freedoms!

[whalerider55]

27. OCD

it is worth noting that it isn't the Democratic Party that has filed the suits up until now.

and after opening my wallet to the DNC this year only to have them sit on my cash, i think i like the idea of seeing my donated cash hold people accountable to the laws they took an oath to protect and defend.

whalerider55

[pacalo]

86. Odd that you're reading this thread if you feel that way.

[mountainvue]

146. Actually Bush sued first, not Gore. n/t

[lonestarnot]

49. OH BABY TELL ME MORE!

[Paradise]

11. If it matters, it's LePore. n/t

[intelle]

12. This is excellent!

Sure wish I could have been there to see it. Wonder if Bev will make some of the footage of the audience available. Hope so! Bev...you rock!

:yourock:

[Melissa G]

21. Spectacular!

Every day Bev and D U give me hope!
Thank you Thank you!

[flyarm]

22. thank you from the heart of this floridian!!

ohhh Bev ..Thank you dear woman!! Thank you doesn't begin to tell you how grateful this floridian is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hugs and kisses..if i could ,i would cover you with kisses, and so would so many from our area of florida..although you filed on the east coast and i am on the west coast, you have given me faith in people of my nation once again!! It has been so hard to deal with knowing my state was stolen again, to know you are on our side..does give me faith!
Thank You again dear lady..arlene clearwater, fla delegate

[lonestarnot]

50. How do you post that little you rock dude?

[Igel]

55. Use the SMilies lookup table, scroll down; click; or type :yourock: n/t

[lonestarnot]

66. Thanks igil!

For some reason I can't do it. I'll keep trying.

[Twist_U_Up]

19. Made for television moment

Too bad it turned out to be her retirement party.
I wonder if they hung out first to see if she was going to say anything about record retention.
Now that would have been good T.V.
Great work Bev LOL
the dirty suns a bitchs

[Generic Other]

30. Retirement party? That's what they said about Paul Revere

It was acts like this that helped win our forefathers their independence.

[symbolman]

77. What if Paul Revere

waited for his film crew to show up before he took off on his horse, to make sure that he could sell the movie later?

We'd all be speaking British.

[Generic Other]

23. Not only did they prove Homeland Security is a joke

they left pie on the faces of these idiots in Florida.

Setting off the alarm though. Wasn't that overkill? Snarf!

I hope they managed to grab a few taxpayer subsidized hors de vors on the way out of the service entrance.

[Trillo]

25. I love that exit they made: a literal metaphor!

When they left, the alarm bells rung!

I'm glad I donated to them, I'll likely donate again.

[skids]

26. What a riot! :-) Time to send in a another check.

No better use for my money than to make sleazeballs squirm.

GO BEV! (and lest we forget, company!)

[SmokingJacket]

28. Man alive.

SOMEONE is doing SOMETHING.

Bev....

:yourock: :headbang: :loveya: :loveya: :yourock:

[texpatriot2004]

29. That is awesome. Thank you Bev, Kathleen, Andy

Can't wait to see the video of "what Democracy looks like" I bet it's ugly. I love the way they went to the meeting because it was on the schedule. I love that they were "rude." I love that they interrupted because they could not get LaPore's attention by ordinary means. I love their stealth operation. Way to go and THANK YOU!

PS I also loved that they announced others had earned litigation by not complying with requests.

:loveya:

[Northern Experiment]

41. I know!

I cannot wait to see this video!

[Pepper32]

32. Go Bev, that's the way you get their attention! LOVE IT

Thank-you for defending democracy :yourock: :headbang:

[milkyway]

35. Bev posted about it in GD. There's a few other comments from her.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2768406&mesg_id=2768406&page=

[Pooka Fey]

36. Bev is Joan of Arc --- for the 21st Century

[symbolman]

37. Just so everyone knows

our film "Electile Dysfunction" has No connection to Bev Harris or Blackboxvoting.org whatsoever.

Just wanted to be clear on that.

We are working like a lot of other people behind the scenes in a rational and legal manner to expose the fraud.

The boos and hisses they heard in that room were the sound of millions of doors being shut, and judges kicking her cases around to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars so that they NEVER come to fruition.

This has set back the voter fraud effort immeasurably.

Just because something feels good doesn't mean you should do it, even for footage to sell your movie.

Send money, she'll need a LOT of it now - because the courts are going to SCREW her (and US in the movement) to the wall for these stunts.

Any lawyer in their right mind would have told her NOT to do this. I wouldn't be surprised if LePore got a restraining order and had her arrested in the future.. or any other official in that room..

[Generic Other]

42. Sometimes it takes a grand gesture

I can't help but admire their fight.

You are probably right about the restraining order though...I hadn't thought of that. She'll be accused of trying to destroy LePore's "millstone."

;)

[lonestarnot]

63. Restraining Order? NOT

She didn't assault the witch. She merely wanted her to have a copy before the press got ahold of it. LOL the press, get the press, can anyone get the press.

[demobabe]

87. Restraining orders are preemptive (and stupid)

You don't have to assault anybody to get a restraining order.

They're issued on the premise that some kind of harm could come to a party if the other party isn't restrained. No proof is necessary. LePore already has all the proof she needs - she has 200 election officials who witnessed some person breaking into a meeting and taking the microphone without invitation.

See, you can't prove that Bev Harris will not cause harm to Theresa LePore (even though all of us here are all positively sure Bev would not do anything to harm LePore). It can't be proven - it's preemptive. The court basically has to issue the order so they're not liable in the event that harm actually occurs, and the court had been informed of the problem.

And so Theresa LePore could get a restraining order without Bev knowing about it, and have her arrested if she calls her on the phone or appears in her office or at an event or whatever.

It's really stupid how it all works, especially when you consider that restraining orders don't generally work in the case where there actually is a dangerous situation - i.e., like if you ex-husband is out to kill you and has his mind made up to do so, a restraining order won't do diddly-squat next to your corpse.

[rodeodance]

107. it's preemptive--like the Irag war-we could not prove SD could harm us-

we just believed he could!!!

[lonestarnot]

111. So Bev just has someone else do the contacting! So smo

BEV HAS LOTS OF BUDDIES!

[demobabe]

123. Bev DID have someone else do the contacting.

Her lawyer served it on LePore's lawyer earlier in the day. That's as legal as it gets. Otherwise, she could have gotten a process server to serve LePore personally.

[lonestarnot]

139. I was referring to her courtesy copy to LaHoe at meeting.

[troubleinwinter]

54. I am confused by this.

I know that YOU are making a movie. You mentioned on another thread that you wanted to make money on your movie. blackboxvoting.org is a nonprofit organization.

I have NEVER heard that Bev Harris or blackboxvoting.org is making a movie.

A video is being made by another company.

Have you filed FOIs? Have you filed suit to have public records produced? You say that you are "working... behind the scenes". Why do you blame us for cheering someone who is working in a public manner?

You may have criticisms of her methods, but considering that you have stated that you are making a film for MONEY, your criticisms seem to be disingenuous and self-serving.

Bev's actions may be seen as political activism. Lots of folks around here feel that activism is just the kind of thing we need right now. Not waiting for a film to come out in 16 months.

[4democracy]

69. I second this, the original patriots did not just work behind the scenes

Don't you think that little tea party they had, might have upset some of the "powerful people"? Thank goodness for those people in 1776 and thank goodness for Bev Harris!

[symbolman]

71. Okay, you want truth?

here's the truth.

Bev Harris came to US to ask for funding to make her movie (we were already making one and invited her to join in). After we sent a film crew (two people) all the way up to Seattle with all the gear, from southern california because she promised an interview - she ate their lunch for about 4 hours (based on her promised interview we in good faith spent about a thousand dollars to send them there).. then refused, blew a lot of hot air around and the camera never got taken out of the bag.. and we were left holding the bag, out of that thousand bucks..

So, now if you look around you see that SHE was apparently working with some OTHER Votergate film as there are TWO of them out there.. I have no idea why she was dissing that film, but she was here on the DU asking for money for her latest Votergate film crew - you know, the movie that's online that she's IN.. not the Votergate film that she's IN that she's dissed, the one that is NOW following her around as she pulls these stunts for the camera..

but that embarrass and create credibility problems for others working on this issue..

Personally *I* have done A LOT to fight this administration and anyone with more than a 1000 posts knows about what my site has been doing for the past three years.. from boycotting Limbaugh, going on MSNBC twice, CNN, and FOX's Orielly show, etc, etc.. finalists in the MoveOn Bush in 30 seconds contest with our ad ARMY OF ONE supporting the troops.. over 50 political attack ads on our site made by hand for NOTHING and paid for with our home mortgage..

Yes, WE mortgaged our HOME to fight this fight - WE don't expect to make money back from the movie, a great movie, made at great expense that covers YOUR RIGHTS.. and made to get the word out. But not by showing our asses to everyone..

She specifically begged US for 60 thousand dollars so she could "go ride around in a truck and film the whole thing.."

The funny part was, is that we WERE going to give her the money - we have an angel that helps us out, and my wife told her to call us back by the end of the week...but thank god she didn't call us back because I wouldn't want to be associated with this kind of behavior.

This is much too serious for high school pranks, and I'm willing to bet that she'll get NOTHING for the movement with these actions. I've been through the southern court system and as soon as a judge hears about this, she will be screwed..

watch for dismissals and waste of lawyer money, watch and see.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

75. Thanks

I didn't know the background info but i was getting pretty suspicious seeing all of this.......


New member <50 posts.

Oh Bev you're a true Patriot I'm reaching for my VISA now


or


New member <100 posts.

You know Bev when history is recorded it won't be 'so and so' it will be Bev Harris.

Where do I sent the money?



Hero worship alone gets my back up. Add to that pleas for money and bogus stunts my bullshit detector goes off big time.

[symbolman]

76. It really is amazing isn't it?

I've heard tell that a few times TWO people were using the same NEW poster name at the same time...

This reminds me of the Movie Gangs of New York where they were shaving the beards off the guys that had just voted to get them to vote again... :)

How many screen names can a person have?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

79. I'll ask you b/c I'm more likely to get an answer.

Where is the data from the 3000+ FIOA requests.
Any of it.

Where are the famous Dumpster Diving Tapes?
One picture please!

How much has been money has been donated so far?
Ball park.

Who is BBV.org?
Andy, Bev, Kathleen and who else.

What, if any, financial interest does Bev or any other BBV official have in the upcoming Votergate movie being made about this Election?
Assuming Bev is using donations to BBV.org to fund her adventures I think a stake, if any, in a movie featuring those adventures should be disclosed.



I have a few more but we'll see how these go first.

I have respected the work and posts by the BBV people for a long time here on DU. Recently I have seen BBV say and do things that have shaken my confidence in them.

The Dumpster Diving Story made me cringe.
The sensational story lines and cliff hanger endings of her posts and reports made me dubious.
The stunt Andy pulled to get on Randi's show sent up red flags.
The latest grand standing has just about done it for me.

Now I have questions.

Maybe the fact that the latest BBV thread in GD is struggling to stay on the front page is a sign people here are getting hip to the game.

[Must_B_Free]

81. What about the lawsuit Bev delivered in CA?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

91. That wasn't one of my questions.

I didn't say BBV hasn't done good work in the past or presently.

Quite the opposite if you read my post carefully.

It's the last few chapters in this saga that have me asking more questions than I get answers for.

Here's another...

How does Andy know Delmart 'Mike' Vreeland well enough that he was contacted by him from jail AFTER his latest arrest.

God_bush_n_cheney (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-22-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #32

34. No he called me from jail


after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x924780#925822

More about Vreeland. Either he is CIA, NSA or a CON MAN so....... How does he know Andy from BBV.

http://register.thestar.com/LoginPage.aspx?SID=JuQ7&RID=3095&CU=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50aGVzdGFyLmNvbS9OQVNBcHAvY3MvQ29udGVudFNlcnZlcj9wYWdlbmFtZT10aGVzdGFyL0xheW91dC9BcnRpY2xlX1R5cGUxJmM9QXJ0aWNsZSZjaWQ9MTA5ODU2ODIxNjA5MiZjYWxsX3BhZ2VpZD05NjgzMzIxODg4NTQmY29sPTk2ODcwNTg5OTAzNw%3d%3d



Read the entire first link. Andy warns of a possible nuke attack before the election.... a very interesting read.

[Generic Other]

113. Thanks Symbolman for filling me in

I have avoided dealing with Bev's strange behavior toward other DUers because I thought it was best for the wider cause not to let my own personal feelings get in the way, but I am troubled by the fact that Bev continues to alienate supporters and friends especially ones who have worked so hard on this voting issue.

I am extremely grateful to individuals like Eloriel, David, Hedda, Ida and others who work so tirelessly on this issue and get so little credit for their efforts.

Trying to stay on the fence on this issue has caused me to get a butt full of splinters. And a red face.

[symbolman]

125. I can only talk about what happened to ME

How WE (four of us, film crew, my wife and I) were treated by Bev Harris. Like I said, WE wanted to GIVE her the money (From our angel) and get her to JOIN UP with our film, make it a joint venture. But suddenly we were useless.. never got another call, wasted all that money (money we don't have - we blew out our bank account making our film to get the word out) --

I don't understand why she would threaten to sue people she was working with before, AND the DU.. I just don't get it.. but it's a fact, and I just can't get past it..

I would love it if she found something that will change this election, maybe future elections, but all I'm seeing are things my ex wife would do..

I don't discount anything she's done before that's made a difference - but come claims just don't line up.. like SHE and her pal decided what kind of outcome the Qui Tam case would have..

THAT was up to the Attorney General - NOT HER.

This is the kind of verbiage that wrecks what she is doing for me.. I see misdirection and re-inventing too much, like the boy who cried wolf it makes me just walk the other way..

Anyone else that's a fan and whole heartedly wants to support all she does, have at it, none of my business and it's a free country.

I just don't like what *I* am hearing and what's personally happened to me.

You are trying to do a good service for your country, don't feel bad about that at all :)

I've enjoyed your posts very much..

[ParanoidPat]

114. "embarrass and create credibility problems.......

....... for others working on this issue" LOL! :evilgrin:

This from someone who boasts of creating "over 50 political attack ads", some of which were so controversial that they even offended moderate members of your own party. :crazy:

You seem to miss the point that the fight for voting rights is a non-partisan cause. This is not a democrat or republican issue.

Via your 'attack ads', you self identify with a point of view that most Republicans consider offensive and insulting. Even the more moderate members of your own party may see them as 'extreme' and that they will hurt the credibility of any other message you may try to deliver.

Worse yet, people intent on discrediting "the VR movement" can easily attack anything with your name on it as coming from "that guy who made that Bush / Hitler video, yeah, we all know what he thinks!"
They can use your past actions to draw a false parallel between every other voting rights activist simply by pointing out that "he's one of them!"

They've done it before.

I applaud your efforts to spread the VR message but you should consider your own credibility issues with about half of the people in this country and the potential embarrassment your previous work may present to some long time VR activists, particularly the Republicans who've been actively working with us on this issue.

The Voting Rights movement has nothing to do with your crusade against the administration or the Republican party in general. This is a basic human rights issue that belongs to all of "the people" regardless of their party affiliation. Indeed it will take the cooperation of as many people as we can get to bring about the changes needed to take our elections back.

This is a completely "non partisan" cause. We're all just citizens working together seeking redress from our Government while trying to secure our rights from them. We all try to put our partisan political views aside to work together as a team toward this common goal.

Your willingness to wear your partisanship on your sleeve and the ease with which you blow off anyone who doesn't share your particular view of reality are counterproductive to those ends. For every liberal that's impressed by your partisan efforts there's a conservative that's equally turned off to anything that you say.

A liberal or progressive organization successfully painted with your extreme views may suffer a little loss of support from the moderate left while gaining some support from the extreme left resulting in little real damage to their reputation. So what if a group on the left is perceived as being a little more to the left than they really are.

To a non partisan effort like the VR movement, any perception of bias to either side of the political spectrum causes great harm to the movement in general. The more extreme the bias is perceived to be toward one side, the more damaging the alienation of the other side becomes. Producing over 50 partisan attack ads may make you a darling of the left but it also threatens our efforts to get our message out to the right. People who know your work and don't agree with your point of view are likely to reject the VR message outright as just more of your "partisan propaganda". You don't seem to understand or accept that point.

You feel free to attack one of the few people who have made any real inroads into bringing this issue to the forefront and level accusations that she might somehow hurt 'our' efforts, while at the same time ignoring the very real danger that your extreme partisanship poses to them.

You seem to pretend that none of the work that Bev has done over the past 2 years has amounted to anything. I'd say most of us here see it differently. I clearly recall many long nights spent here analyzing the Diebold source code and corroborating the security issues we collectively discovered while Diebold and certain elections officials publicly denied that any problems existed. I remember several subsequent high profile studies of the system that were brought about directly because of Bev's actions and that ultimately confirmed the extent of the problems she alleged and the potential danger they presented to our elections. I know that US CERT has issued a security warning for the GEMS software that wouldn't have happened if not for Bev. I know all too well how many months she spent writing her book that many have called "the bible of Voting Rights activists", only to wind up giving it away for free rather than let allegations of some "profit motive" cast doubts on her findings.

In my home state of California she was directly responsible for the decertification of the new Diebold TSx machines and the 'conditional' certification of the AccuVote TS machines. She was directly responsible for numerous procedural changes and safeguards being written into the law, including making paper ballots available to anyone who voted in a 'touch screen' precinct.

I've seen you allege that she filed the 'Qui-tam' suit against Diebold simply to profit from it personally, even after she had repeatedly declared in public that any award she was entitled to would go directly to the registered 501c(3) non profit organization to help fund further investigations. When Diebold offered to settle the suit out of court for 2.6 million dollars, a move that would have netted an easy $780,000 for BBV.org, she convinced Jim March, the other plaintiff in the suit, to reject the settlement offer despite warnings by our State's Attorney General that in doing so he would make sure that they forfeited any right to collect any portion of the damages awarded should they prevail at trial. They chose to give up the money to get Diebold into discovery and hold them accountable rather than take the cash and let them off with no official admission of wrongdoing. Days after all this was made public and discussed on these forums, you continued to attempt to slander her with those same baseless allegations.

You still attempt to smear her with baseless allegations of her attempting to "profit from the donations made to BlackBoxVoting.org." Either you lack any fundamental understanding of the financial reporting requirements that a registered non-profit organization must fulfill to maintain their tax exempt status or you are just out to defame her character and the entire BlackBoxVoting organization out of spite.

To compare your appearances on O'Rielly, CNN and MSNBC to what Bev has done in the press is, quite frankly, laughable.

You attempting to unspin the Drudge hit piece that used your connection to the MoveOn.org 'Bush in 30 seconds' contest to make it appear that MoveOn had some connection to your Bush/Nazi piece can't be compared to the hundreds of radio and television appearances and print articles that Bev has manifested to raise awareness of the VR movement.

You keep complaining about the lack of results that Bev and BBV.org have achieved while most people marvel at how much they've done with so little, all the while fighting a multi-million dollar PR effort waged against her financed by the combined voting machine industry. There are dozens of VR groups out there, most of whom haven't accomplished near as much as Bev has, yet you only hold her responsible for the lack of results.

You come off sounding like someone who would attempt to hold 'Take Back The Media' responsible for not getting results trying to change the media.
Despite your Rush Limbaugh boycott, he's still on the air on more stations than ever, lying as much as ever, and so are Hannity, Savage, O'Rielly, Blitzer, Coulter, Carlson, Novak and the rest of the media whores.

It's been three years! What have you been doing? What good have you done. What media have you taken back? You're only doing this to get publicity for yourself. You're just trying to cash in on the work of others! Sounds kind of stupid doesn't it?

Now you know what we've been hearing from you. :)

[SomthingsGotaGive]

118. Hi Pat

I have a couple of questions for you.

I don't have a stake in any BBV or activist group other than being a concerned citizen of the world hoping the US can get its act together in time to save itself and the rest of us.

Living outside the US I am limited in my choices to provide support and assistance in the fight. Any boycott I participate in hurts the average American in the same way sanctions hurt not Saddam but his people.

That being said I come to DU to monitor progress and offer any help needed. Sometimes when I see things I think impede the progress I comment hoping to either clarify the issues or remove the obstacles.

On this issue as I've already said I have more questions than answers. First I have two question for you..

You mention that this is a non-partisan issue. But you and I know that this is just the PR spin BBV activists are betting the farm on.

You hope that by trying to appeal to Constitutional heart strings you will be able to deflect Partisan attacks against your movement.

This is probably the smartest route to take but it is nothing more than a tactic of Bush opponents, and to think it will be seen as anything but by Bush supporters would be foolish.

If this is a 'non-partisan' effort (note you don't say 'bi-partisan') would you please name a single high profile....scratch that...any elected Republicans or prominent Bush supporters that have called into question the Presidential election results in any state or embraced the BBV community?


I hope I'm not coming across as anyone other than someone who thinks he deserves some answers. If I'm constantly being asked to donate and support a cause with LTTEs and research I think reasonable questions are fair. I have read quite a bit about Bev's work and agree that she has achieved tremendous results.

You use Bev's refusal to accept the settlement in California as proof of her altruism and intentions. You state that of 2.6 million dollars BBV would have netted $780 000. I assume, because you provide no explanation, that the difference of $1.82 million was also turned down by other parties.

Without knowing first hand why the lawyers and other plaintiff refused the settlement it is hard to ascertain anything about this decision.

Did the lawyers get paid? If so How?


Now I'll cut to the chase and tell you how I really feel.

I have herd Bev on the Radio, seen her on TV, and read her on the internet for about two years. And until recently considered her a true American Hero. I still think her heart is in the right place and I think she wants more than anybody to prove her claims and wake up a sleeping nation.

But.

I think she has been getting some bad advice lately, associating herself with unreliable people, and using questionable tactics that are casting her efforts in an unfavorable light.

For example coming on DU and threatening to sue Eloriel for using the term BBV Cleanup Crew in a thread title.

Even if Eloriel and TIA have a history with Bev and were indeed trying to cash in on her fame nobody here, especially new people, knew anything about it and she came across looking like she was biting the hand that feeds her.


I asked a few questions further down (or up not sure), I think that answers to these would eliminate many of the 'credibility' issues starting to appear in BBV's operations.

The most important question as far as I'm concerned involves Andy. In my BBV research I came across an alarming thread here on DU involving Andy (god_bush_ncheney) and a shady figure named Delmart 'Mike' Vreeland.

Vreeland was/is involved in the 9/11 conspiracy movement and claims to be a NSA/CIA agent who had prior knowledge of 9/11. He has been arrested several times, most recently on OCT 22. Andy claims to have received a phone call from Vreeland while in jail shortly after the arrest. Andy also claims Vreeland warned him about an imminent nuke attack before the election.

God_bush_n_cheney (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-22-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #32

34. No he called me from jail

after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



More about Vreeland. Either he is CIA, NSA or a CON MAN so....... How does he know Andy from BBV.

http://register.thestar.com/LoginPage.aspx?SID=JuQ7&RID...


This connection NEEDS to be explained before I can fully support Anything Bev or BBV do again. At the very least behavior like Andy displayed in the above thread is unbecoming of the BBV movement and Bev should reign in her staff.

Thank you for listening.

S.

[demobabe]

129. For more research

You said:

"You use Bev's refusal to accept the settlement in California as proof of her altruism and intentions. You state that of 2.6 million dollars BBV would have netted $780 000. I assume, because you provide no explanation, that the difference of $1.82 million was also turned down by other parties."

"Without knowing first hand why the lawyers and other plaintiff refused the settlement it is hard to ascertain anything about this decision."

I can't figure out what's going on here entirely, either. I haven't found anything that actually documents that Bev is turning down any offer. In fact, press accounts of the settlement seem to suggest otherwise. It seems Bev Harris has no authority to reject anything about the settlement at ALL and that it was California Attorney General Bill Lockyer who went about resolving this with Diebold.

From this article here: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/11/BAG869PCU31.DTL

"Of the $2.6 million Diebold had agreed to pay, $1.63 million would go to the state and $475,000 to Alameda County."

"The settlement also calls for Diebold to pay $500,000 to UC Berkeley's Institute of Governmental Studies to fund research on how to better train poll workers in the use of electronic voting technology."

it also said:

"Although Harris is entitled to some of the proceeds from the settlement, she does not have veto power over the final disposition of the case, said Lockyer spokesman Tom Dresslar. "

[peacetalksforall]

132. S for sohange or a similar spelling?

[SomthingsGotaGive]

134. sohange ?

no.
Steve.

[symbolman]

121. Your post is laughable to anyone but yourself.

ON EDIT: Dear ParanoidP..

I'm not going to admire bad decisions made by anyone, including you and the choice of the Qui Tam Instigators. But as it's understood by most people there WAS a settlement. Someone got some money, it went somewhere.. and it was a LOT of money.

Plus they had NO CONTROL over the Attorney General making the settlement - none, more bluster and high hatting where none is due. Are YOU making this claim, I don't think that BBV is.. I don't know what they said about this.. shall I furnish a link to where the money went so that people can understand this better? Be glad to..

I think someone else will be posting the ACTUAL story soon so that everyone will get the truth.. and isn't that what we all want?

Oh, and I've talked with the Kevin Shelly (we interviewed him many times) and it seems to me that HE was the one responsible for kicking bad machines OUT. It's His JOB.

BTW, far as nonprofit orgs go you can virtually write yourself a check as a "salary" at the end of the year. My wife knows all about this and she filled me in..

And I don't have to defend my record, it's well known - I've had the full support of folks in the progressive movement, from my friend Robert Greenwald to Janeane Garofalo, Randi Roades, Wes Boyd (yeah, I don't have to get someone to sneak me by their producer), etc, etc.

At some point I suspect that Randi will come the same conclusions that many here have. Give it a little time, and it won't be from anything I have said or will say, as I when I start promoting our film in earnest I won't be saying anything about BBV - but I WILL promote as many others in the VR scene as possible.

Including the DU, which I almost always mention when I go on the media as being a great place full of hard working,very intelligent folks filled with vision.

The description YOU have made of me reads like glowing support of Michael Moore. Thanks. I've taken it to the wall for the Progressives and people loved it.. I guess you haven't seen the video of me creating a coffin, taking it to the Enlistment Center in the middle of Times Square (right in front of that 40 foot screen showing enlistment crap), putting a flag and a flower on it and then getting in the face of the Enlistment scumbag that called police that DIDN'T want to remove the coffin..

Watch it yourself: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash/warnography.mov

You don't seem to know much about TakeBacktheMedia.com - if you want to attack me, you need to get more ammo.. take a little spin around the site.. maybe you'll find some navel fuzz on the couch you can complain about in public..

Or our Media Summit in Boston where many Progressive Writers, Websites, film-makers all joined up to create a force with real buying power to get them all on the same page so we can fight these guys, all in the works..

Limbaugh boycott? We cost him AMTRACK, RED LOBSTER, RADIOSHACK, about 15 or 20 companies who DUMPED HIM, a few of them in ONE AFTERNOON once we started. And we are gearing up to reworking the website and going after him again, this time to demand that Air America be heard on Armed Forces Radio - we're talking to someone at the MoveOn Pac at this time, getting ready to rally troops to list his advertisers in all 50 states so we can hit him locally and nationwide..

Once we get Air America on the AFRN THEN we demand the Fairness Doctrine be reinstalled, we at that point would have made the precedent so it moves us further in the media..

Yeah, we've done a lot in the past three years (if you refuse to see it, it's not my problem but that kind of attitude looks familiar) - not much in the last year as we've spent it travelling and interviewing hundreds of people for our Film "Electile Dysfunction" which is now a Premium on BUZZFLASH..

Do you honestly think that Buzzflash would give us their FULL SUPPORT if everyone thought I was some wacko far left winger?

No, they wouldn't. They wouldn't expose themselves to ridicule by their 3-4 million subscribers a month -- So that makes your argument null and void. But keep making it, it's all you got..

"But, But.. HE made a Bush/Nazi movie and Drudge said so, even if he got the wrong guy.." Doesn't that sound like lil Johny One Note to you?

Slander and Libel ME all you want, people know better -- the only ones that complained about the BUsh/Nazi flash I did were Freepers - and that's out of 100 MILLION hits from all around the world, not a peep from true conservatives.. Joe Scarborough didn't even mention it as you saw if you bothered to watch me on his show on MSNBC - he wanted to BLESS us for our NON Partisan support of the TROOPS (who I have been fighting for also all along as I am a Vietnam Era Veteran who was drafted in 1971, joined the USAF and was Honorably discharged.

Some More links for you - so everyone can see how high you've piled it --

http://66.230.230.110/radio/sym-1-13.rm <--Joe Scarborough show


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1014887

gee, I come off as a progressive, that's too bad.. I never sold Cigars that mocked Clinton, never complained that Kerry was some kind of idiot for not talking to me.. True Democrats DON'T say things like THAT.

Attack the Messenger all you want, it still doesn't change what some people are doing to THEIR credibility and leaving a trail of bodies as they roll ever forward, flush with cash..

I hope I get the pleasure of meeting you in person some day so I can make my points to you more directly.

Now I'll be getting back to work - don't expect anymore posts from me, I have no time left to feed the pets here.

[demobabe]

122. What is your motivation?

For launching an all out campaign to undermine and humiliate Symbolman?

You claim this is what he's doing to Bev Harris, yet you seem to be doing everything to demonize him with "facts" which are simply your own perceptions and not facts at all! Something is really fishy here.

We have seen what Symbolman has produced. We've seen what he's accomplished. According to some of your postings, it sounds like he single handedly was responsible for every bit of bad press MoveOn.org received and for the downfall of the Democratic party. Pure BS.

You have all these glowing words about Bev Harris, and yet no facts to back that up, either.

How about all the folks she burned along the way?

I'm sure David Allen - her first publisher and initial legal risk taker downloading the Diebold source code and notes - would have a few words.

You talk about the tireless hours of going through source code as if she did that herself, when Roxanne Jekot has posted online THOUSANDS of dollars of phone bills for explaining that crap to her and paying for her web presence.

Scroll down in this thread and search for RoxanneJ for more info:
http://dark1p.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/10/193818/27

As for the Diebold suit, I have NO IDEA what you're talking about with the discovery and rejecting offers, etc. MAKES NO SENSE.

You say Diebold offered the settlement; but that's not the way it works. Attorney General Bill Lockyer made the offer (yes, the same side BBV is on) and it also says Bev Harris and Jim March will be awarded part of the settlement. You can read all the details here:

http://yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_15197.shtml

And also here, where you can read about her public grousing (but no veto power) over the settlement:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/11/BAG869PCU31.DTL

I'm sure Bev Harris will be more than happy to post the final settlement from the court which shows she will get nothing from the suit like you say (NOT)

Just like she's posted the financials and company information on blackboxvoting.org (NOT)

It's time to put up or shut up. All of Symbolman's cards are on the table. I can't say the same for blackboxvoting.org.

[Generic Other]

131. I am now embarrassed and sorry to have posted this thread

Why is it that with BBV, every single ally and friend is eventually purged like old underwear?

And purged with vengeance? What the hell kind of behavior is that?

I find this practice of destroying at every turn those whose work originally helped advance the cause repugnant. I remember when BBVers were elated that Symbolman offered to help the cause. I remember all the energy and effort David Allen and Eloriel put into researching and digging up the details. And a lot of other people.

I too have also noted the growing trail of DU corpses left behind in the dust as BBVers have charged forward. I am apalled and ashamed to be associated with this sort of Rovian attack.

I feel like I now owe an apology to half the people on DU. Goddamit.

[Jimdish25]

147. You know the answer to that. G.O..

Like so many things, it boils down to egos, some of which seem very fragile right about now. Amazing that so much negative energy could be expended when we need just the opposite.

[life_long_dem]

58. If LePore is a public official, how much privacy is she entitled to?

If she is on taxpayers time, isn't she required to answer questions about a public matter?

[lonestarnot]

60. Quit Raining on the Parade Here....Can't we just enjoy the moment

It was a no harm no foul. It was a "courtesy" copy. And if Bev gets slapped with a contempt charge, we'll bail her out!

[Carolab]

73. Contempt of what?

Corruption and fraud? LOL. Bev is a real patriot. She brings tears to my eyes. BEV HARRIS, you are MY HERO.

[lonestarnot]

140. Contempt for violation of any worthless restraining order

should LeHoe try to slap one. Violation in the name of Democracy!

[demobabe]

89. By all means, enjoy the moment...

Because what's done is done, and this may be the last victory you get to enjoy in this saga.

This is all I've been saying: we need people to think several steps ahead rather than what feels good at the time and sacrifice the larger battle. :(

[lonestarnot]

141. Get off the manipulation wagon!

I will again say, they had and still have no intention of cooperating without a fight. She did not harm the process. It's already fucked what we are going through to get votes counted. It doesn't take much thinking to figure out that their arrogant condescending ways can be outshined with someone with balls! Last victory my ass! This battle is just beginning baby and I'm in it for the LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGG HAUL BECAUSE I'M NOT GOING AWAY OR BACKING DOWN and contrary to what you may believe, I did think about it and it DID FEEL GOOD. Done done and on to the next!

[IndyPriest]

70. I'm confused, too...

Is it your opinion -- as a strategy -- that working behind the scenes with the attitudes of the election officials, lawyers and judges that we've seen, both this round and round 1 in 2000 (or was 2000 round 2), is somehow going to OPEN doors? Is it your opinion that -- as a strategy -- filing suits quietly and without fanfare would someehow soften the hearts of folks like LePone and suddenly they will see the error of their ways and HELP the law suits go forward? If that's your opinion, I find that, frankly, impossible to believe.

I have no doubt that there are all kinds of good people who are trying hard to lay all kinds of traps to catch the perps. And it's possible that some of those traps may not close just as perfectly as we'd like. And it's possible that some traps may require others to alter plans. But it seems to me disingenious, at the least, for you to suggest that YOUR trap is the ONLY possible one that might work, that anyone who doesn't do it YOUR way is somehow wrecking the possibility of achieving our goal.

There are people who make scenes, and people who work behind them. People who take to the streets and those who work from behind their desks. Letter writers and poster makers. Financial contributors and muscle contributors. It seems to me that, against THE MACHINE we're facing, we need every hand to push as hard as possible, from every direction conceivable.

[symbolman]

97. Your quote

"for you to suggest that YOUR trap is the ONLY possible one that might work, that anyone who doesn't do it YOUR way is somehow wrecking the possibility of achieving our goal."

appears to fit the BBV scene perfectly.. or didn't you catch the postings from Bev H. that KERRY was some kind of idiot who should have genuflected over HER work.. it made me sick to my stomach that someone could talk about Kerry that way, that they could call themselves Democrats and diss the man that could be the President, should be.. it looked a lot like arrogance to me..

Let's SEE some real evidence.. like the poster above said, how about answering some real questions?

and by the way, LePore has a 53-0 record in court for being sued..

that means she has NEVER LOST.. and after this stunt the JUdge down there will give HER Carte Blanc...

Like I said, the boos and hisses were the sound of hundreds of Doors CLOSING to Voter Fraud. YOu catch more flies with Honey..

not to mention a mere 17,000 other lawyers working (behind the scenes?)to get Kerry IN, but it's all about ego to some folks.

[Sideways]

100. Good To See You SymbolMan Has Your Baby Arrived?

Bev is behaving very foolishly here there isn't a chance in hell she is going to best LePore. Bev makes me shake my head a lot. Her comments about Kerry made me want to fly back to the States and kick her ass.

[symbolman]

102. Hey!!

Not yet, but my wife is really really tired of being preggers.. the baby is due ON Christmas!

Poor kid, I always felt sorry for kids that had an Xmas b-day, presents get shifted around and one becomes a B-day gift, socks or gloves, etc :)

Back to the states? Are you living on the edge of the Empire as well?

We moved as far away as we could get..

thanks for asking,

sym

[Sideways]

108. I'm In Sicily!

Hey tell your wife it'll be over soon! I have FOUR and I know what she's going through. My birthday is Valentines Day I understand the holiday birthday thingy.

You guys are in my thoughts. :loveya:

[ParanoidPat]

120. "appears to fit the BBV scene perfectly"?

I think you may need glasses! LOL! :evilgrin:

Let's examine what you 'see' as opposed to what is really there shall we?

You posted, "or didn't you catch the postings from Bev H. that KERRY was some kind of idiot who should have genuflected over HER work"

Do you have a link to that? I honestly don't remember Bev ever calling Kerry "some kind of idiot" or in any way indicating that he should have "genuflected over HER work". I do recall her expressing her extreme displeasure with Kerry and the Dem's for sitting on millions of dollars in donations to their "recount fund" and Kerry not using his standing as a candidate to get a court order compelling Florida officials to produce the records in a timely manner, something she lacked the standing to do under Florida law as a mere voting rights activist.

You continue with, "it made me sick to my stomach that someone could talk about Kerry that way, that they could call themselves Democrats and diss the man that could be the President, should be.. it looked a lot like arrogance to me."

AWWWWW, poor baby! Grow a thicker skin would ya? It seems to me that I saw dozens of threads here on any given day where hundreds of people right here on DU said much worse things about Kerry and the Democratic party than you even allege Bev to have said. Mind you none of them had filed 3000 FOIA requests and were out in the real world at the time attempting to gather actionable documentation to do a physical audit of the election. By anticipating what would be needed and working pro actively to file the appropriate document requests, (Something neither the Kerry campaign nor the Democratic party bothered to do) she offered Kerry valuable lead time to audit and possibly contest the election based on that audit. Kerry squandered that opportunity along with the good will of thousands of Democrats.

Off hand, how many of the hundreds of DUers who actually dissed Kerry for his actions, or lack there of, did you take to task because they offended you as much as Bev allegedly did with what you read into her post?

It's funny how different people can see such different things in the same event. What you perceive as "arrogance" many other people may perceive as "righteous indignation" at a man who's election it is to lose, and who after many impassioned speeches promising that "every vote would be counted" and numerous pleas for financial backing for a "recount effort", stood idly by as the deadline for a challenge passed.
Strange how I see that as a breech of trust and the ultimate in arrogance. Go figure.

Where were we? Oh yes, making demands! Let's SEE some real evidence.. like the poster above said, how about answering some real questions? Now there's what I perceive as "arrogance"! :eyes:

For the past 2 years I've seen Bev do nothing but produce a steady stream of "real evidence". She's been constantly getting out in the press answering the tough questions. She came up with the Diebold source code and helped lead several teams of investigators to corroborated findings of security issues within the software. She collected solid evidence of those findings, published them, and in so doing, spurred several high profile studies that all validated her claims.

She delivered over 13,000 internal memos from Diebold and led a search of those documents that turned up actionable evidence of fraud. She acted on that evidence and got major changes incorporated into the California election law. She proved that the sale by Diebold of their TSx machines to the state was based on fraudulent business practices and got the SoS to decertify those machines. She convinced the state to "conditionally certify" the Diebold Accuvote TS machines based on strict new security guidelines for their use. She convinced them to offer paper ballots to anyone who didn't trust using the machines.

She wrote a 250+ page book full of answers and gave it away for free. She's done all of that and much, much more. Too much really for me to keep track of any more, although I try. You were witness to all of it as it happened. Knowing all of this and seeing you demand "real proof" and answers to "real questions" in an attempt to raise doubts in the minds of new people here, as if Bev Harris hasn't gained some hard earned credibility for all she's done, makes me sick to my stomach. It also raises a real question in my mind. How can someone who gives such a dishonest and inaccurate portrayal of what Bev has done over the past 2 years, as well as her motives for doing it, ever be trusted to produce an honest documentary?

Lets face it, posting 2 lines like the following 2 together and expecting any reasonable person to buy your conclusion doesn't help your credibility.

"and by the way, LePore has a 53-0 record in court for being sued.."

Knowing the specifics of several of those cases, for example the illegal use of candidate names on both sides of the butterfly ballot, shows us that she has never been held accountable for her actions, despite proven illegal activity that harmed an election. Following that line with the conclusion,

"that means she has NEVER LOST.. and after this stunt the JUdge down there will give HER Carte Blanc... :wtf:

Any reasonable person seeing a record going back that long of her getting away with everything she's ever done wrong, with no accountability from the courts, is going to realize she was issued her "Carte Blanc" account the day she entered the state! To attempt to frame the situation as something Bev brought on herself "after this stunt", well........as long as you can get yourself to believe it, I guess it's OK.

After what we have all learned about the relationship between Florida elections officials and vote fraud from the 2000 election, coupled with the obvious lack of legal accountability, to try and claim that,

"Like I said, the boos and hisses were the sound of hundreds of Doors CLOSING to Voter Fraud."

just leaves me wondering how you can be involved at all in any kind of documentary on this subject. If you can say with a straight face that there were any doors OPEN to fraud investigations in Florida since 2000 I've got a mountain top retreat there I'd like to sell you real cheap.

You claim that "YOu catch more flies with Honey", If that's so, why do you continue to take cheap shots at Bev from the safety of your home while she's out in the field actually doing something? Perhaps you should be answering REAL questions and providing REAL proof of these 17,000 lawyers working (somewhere?) to get Kerry IN.

Perhaps you can document it for us? :evilgrin:

[symbolman]

124. This is standard issue

abuse of another person's time when you have nothing BUT time (apparently) on your hands..

You want to disprove my statements?

DONATE to the DU, get a star and start looking around. Pretending these posts don't exist don't cut it.

Do some work? - I've spent the last year of my life travelling making this documentary (and we had people in FLA too) with a pregnant wife.

Cheap shots? You don't call stomping into someone's retirement party with a piece of paper that ALREADY been legally served (if it has) to promote yourself (why did she need to film it unless they are making a film for profit?) is a cheap shot in my opinion. She's a Public Figure by the way so that makes if even more pressing to show some class.

But here's a question.

Maybe you can explain to me why so many people with low post numbers are crawling on the board and crying that they MUST GET THEIR VISA OUT? I really need to find out how many screen names you can have here.. No fault of the mods, of course - they've got a tough enough job to keep the freepers out..

but Something smells funny about some of those new posters, a lot of "Can't wait to see the film!" "Let me just get out my wallet" "Time to get out the VISA again!"

Saying you love and worship someone is fine by me, the world needs more of that, and it's a free country..

Like I said in my other post, I don't have time to feed pets.

[Hobbes199]

44. That was soo much fun to read : )

[Lone_Star_Dem]

46. Ohhhh, that had to be so fun!

You know they are still laughing over it!!

Excellent work Bev, Kathleen and Andy :toast:
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[m.standridge]

53. Spin arounds

So now it's Florida. Deja Vu.
Let's see. Looking at recounts in FL. He seems to have carried NM. Whew--THAT'S a bad sign for HIM.
Has anyone looked into Texas since a couple weeks back.
I mean, surely this guy hasn't carried his home state--not if he's losing in the Electoral College.
BBV was looking at TX recently; they supplied the state's computer code-keeper's address at their website, and didn't seem impressed w/TX's state computer code security!

[Lisabtrucking]

61. Hehehehe! wish I could of been there. n/t

[Shalom]

57. Screw LaWhore!!! n/t

[RubyCat]

59. God bless Bev Harris!

[progressoid]

62. That's the best thing I've read all day!!

"LaPore was scheduled to make a speech on records retention."

Holy Shit - that's hilarious

[NVMojo]

65. Good work!!!!!

[Imagevision]

67. Bev Harris I Love You...let me get my Visa card!

That had to be the slickest move of serving someone with a subpeona - can you Imagine what Lapore must have felt -- talk about stealing the show...right on Bev...you rock darlin!

[Guava Jelly]

94. Why are these post followed by let me empty my wallet?

Bev is not jesus mother mary or even michael moore.
I sometimes wonder if she is using DU for a cash cow to finance a movie that wont do any thing but preach to the converted.
If you believe florida is going to flip to Kerry ..Even though he probably actually won it..Then I feel sorry for you.
Symbolman is correct and only being gentle because calling out Fellow DU'ers gets you punished by the MAN (DU MODERATORS)
Bev is a kin to drug companys seeking a cure for the common cold in my eyes..If they cured the cold they would loose money.
If she actually fixes the Black boxes shes out of business.

Bev is real good at rounding up fast cash.
Selling hope is easy
But its your money .

[demobabe]

96. From what I can tell, she can't serve her own lawsuit

Florida Rules of Civil Procedure
RULE 1.070 PROCESS

(b) Service; By Whom Made. Service of process may be made by an officer authorized by law to serve process, but the court may appoint any competent person not interested in the action to serve the process. When so appointed, the person serving process shall make proof of service by affidavit promptly and in any event within the time during which the person served must respond to the process. Failure to make proof of service shall not affect the validity of the service. When any process is returned not executed or returned improperly executed for any defendant, the party causing its issuance shall be entitled to such additional process against the unserved party as is required to effect service.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

101. The actual lawsuit was already served

http://blackboxvoting.org

From Black Box Voting:

Black Box Voting filed the lawsuit this morning in Palm Beach County, served it per Florida law on LaPore's attorney.

(please note it didn't say who served the papers)
snip......
Harris went onto the podium and introduced herself to the crowd. "I know I'm interrupting. This will only take a minute." She turned to LaPore, "Since we can't get your attention any other way, I'm serving you with a courtesy copy of the lawsuit we served on your office this morning."

She served a courtesy copy, not the original. This might not be in violation of the law. Does anyone know?

[demobabe]

126. No, that's not illegal

But it's snarky. Her lawyer served the lawsuit on LePore's office earlier, in accordance with the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure. What Bev did wasn't "serving" anything - it was handing a copy of the suit to LePore. No, not illegal.

But it was aggressive and not very strategic. Consider LePore has won 53 out of 53 lawsuits served on her office since 2000 - and that includes all the butterfly ballot stuff. The Orlando Sentinel covered the story and already painted Bev and BBV out to be freak jobs in their coverage, and poor beloved Ms. LePore (yeah, right) as the victim of these activists breaking into and wrecking her retirement party.

[dzika]

95. Article in the Sentinel - Three people crash a gathering ...

...where the embattled Palm Beach supervisor is honored.

This thread has a link to the the article:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x96872

This paper really took LePore side here. Made her look like the victim and the hero at the same time. They make BBV look mean-spirited.

[demobabe]

99. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about

In my posting above #34...

The worst is yet to come; check out this quote from the same article:

"Cowles tried to recover from the incident, quickly pointing out that LePore's record is 53-0 for lawsuits filed against her office since 2000, when she became synonymous with the notorious butterfly ballot that some Democrats say helped defeat Al Gore."

53-0.

That's in LePore has won 53 suits and lost 0. This is what I was talking about with the local factor.

[keepthemhonest]

104. if bev isn't going to do it who is

whether it's good or bad at least SHE is doing something about this mess, how can we sit here at our computers and critisize(sp?) that?

I am going to stick up for the newbies and say that I think we really should try to embrace all the supprtive newbies. It shows that even now more people are signing up for this to fight for our democracy and see what they can do.

[farmbo]

106. Au Contrair... Bev will have to try this in the press

With LePore's record of 53-0 in prior litigation, Bev is NOT going to prevail in the Good 'OL Boy network which dominates the local county courthouse. I'm sure the last 53 plaintiffs played suck up to the locals and look where it got them.

Bev needs to throw some bombs and maybe-- just maybe-- get some national attention. Yes,even conservative media get their noses out of joint when local politicos stonewall the release of public records. That is their stock-in-trade.

I understand your point, but have an abiding cynicism about the Fla legal system.

[lonestarnot]

112. We need to crash more gatherings of scoundrels!

We have been to kind.

[Paradise]

105. kick! n/t

[cyberpj]

116. Where are the deep pockets players?

I'm wondering where the big money players are in this?

Shouldn't they (read: Soros) be backing her big time?

We're unemployed here but I still sent 2 contributions.

What about the money (read: Kerry) still in Dems pockets?

Blessing to you Bev!

PJ

[bearfan454]

117. The deep pocket players are in the Congress and the Senate

I'm sorry to say.

[Jimdish25]

128. Bev is making the news, not waiting for someone else...

to manage the news. That's what we're up against.

Face it, the cat was out of the bag when they first went dumpster diving and got the goods on some very sleazy activity. As for any RW judge she may come up against later, getting in Theresa LePore's face isn't going to matter one bit, especially if the law is explicit in her favor. This isn't about making friends and the Repubs will throw TL overboard in a second if she's no longer useful.

Come to think of it, the same kind of guts it takes to go that route may well be admired by some of these judges as long as they are respected in their courtroom. Nobody who's biased against you is going to respect you for "playing nice". Aren't we tired of being walked over and waking up with boot marks on our backs?

As far as grandstanding is concerned, I think that's better defined by dressing up in a flight suit claiming "mission accomplished", or standing at "ground zero" with a bullhorn pledging solidarity with the friends and relatives of those whose demise was due in no small part to your own negligence and incompetence. It pales in comparison to getting in the face of a corrupt political hack as she rides her broken down mule into the sunset while the town burns behind her.

I'm making another contribution now!

[KoKo]

130. Whatever Bev does to "OUT" Le Pore is GREAT in my Book! Go Bev,

Andy and whomever else you get on your side to slam these folks who've been willing Bush supporters...and even your own constituents couldn't get you out because your "party" supported you to the bitter end!

Good for Bev...if she and Andy seem a little like Michael Moore then I say GO FOR IT! We need more Mikes's and less Daschles/Schumers and the rest of the "do nothing party."

Go Bev...go for broke on this! Flamboyance belongs in the Dem Party...we should love it, embrace it! But, we still need to do our work on the ground. Remember Hillary's book: "It Takes a Village?"

Well, we need every worker with their own special talents in our DEM/Progressive/Green view...of OUR VILLAGE!!!

[savistocate]

137. "crash a gathering" - that was a public meeting.

That elections spvsr saying how dare you "this is a private meeting" is B***sh*t.

[demobabe]

143. You go do that...

Yet another person with single digit postings defending Bev Harris and going to contribute yet again to her cause!

But your description of grandstanding of Bush being dressed up in a flight suit declaring "Mission Accomplished!" is a very good example. I agree with you 100%. We KNOW the mission wasn't accomplished, and that the whole event was staged to snowball the American public and sell them on the idea that something was happening in Iraq.

This is EXACTLY what Bev Harris is doing here.

Except instead of an aircraft carrier, we have a public meeting.

And instead of saying meaningless "Mission Accomplished" words, she's waving around a meaningless lawsuit and filming it.

And instead of Gallup polls to show what a great approval rating she has, we have new DU screennames showing up with under 10 postings saying, "Gee, I love Bev Harris so much - I'm going to get my VISA card out and give money for the 20th time!"

The only difference is that the Bush charade was played out in all the media and they all played him up as a hero. In this case, the media I've seen cover this so far (Orlando Sentinel) has essentially classified her as a nutcase. Maybe someone else will be kinder.

I've never said anything about having to"play nice," but I do think we should "play smart."

I mean, what's next? Should we break into Theresa LePore's home and steal her underwear?

[Jimdish25]

144. I can't figure out if you're angry...

... or jealous Demo?

-"I mean, what's next? Should we break into Theresa LePore's home and steal her underwear?"

What's you're real beef? As I said in my post, this is not exactly a stealth operation Bev is running. She's obviously made a (strategic) decision (although you may not agree with it) to go public at this time and make certain "public servants" accountable to the people they're supposed to represent. As long as she's not misrepresenting the facts it's not necessary to follow a script that someone might feel is more appropriate. Frankly, there's no guarantee any course of action will be successful.

It's easy to predict that an underdog will fail so good luck with that.

Maybe you can clue me in on how many posts I need here to impress you. I didn't realize this was the only forum on the net.

[johnaries]

YOU GO, BEV!!!!!!!!

AWESOME!!!! :yourock:
And to all the "naysayers" who get frustrated because things aren't moving fast enough :bounce: , here's proof that Patience is a GOOD thing. Beautifully executed! In addition to "following proper procedure", This should also get some media attention!

BEV! You ROCK! BEV for FEC Chairman!!!! :toast:

[peacetalksforall]

135. I don't know the inter-'spiracy' between films and stuff, but here's

my impression....many of us here have followed Bev for a long time. I've got great antenna and I never felt her to be anything but determined and generous.

Now there are accusations involving money and name.

If I were her and needed to work as fast and long as she and her group, I would want to explore whatever was needed to get the publicity out because of the urgency and I would use every legal trick in the book to counter-match and surpass masters of illegal tricks.

I am now bored with the accusations and want to waitto hear the other side of the story, but guess what...she's out there working for all of us.

Whenever I read threads that have a ganging up and piling on stink around them, I'm totally suspicious. These gang-up, pile-on posts mean one thing - some people have a lot of time free to campaign against her (and Andy) in what seems to be an ongoing agenda.

Yeah for the activists! Who are making a sacrifice!!!

[savistocate]

138. Reference to--she degrades other groups criticism

Who else, what other group investigation/challenge of FL vote?

Have not read or heard a hint of any.

[peacetalksforall]

142. You may want to repost by replying to the message you're

referring to or address the person by their DU name. I don't think you meant to reply to my message.

[IndyPriest]

149. Higher Class

You've obviously got Higher Class!

[Chimpanzee]

148. I'm so glad she humiliated that bitch on film! When can we see it?