Let Keith diss Bev Harris

[tbuddha]

If that's what the people need to hear to make KO more credible than fine. Look, that's how the repukes succeed. They have people who do the dirty work, and other people to take the high ground. I know it sounds phony and lacks integrity, but you gotta fight fire with fire sometimes. As far as Bev goes, I'm glad she ruined those fuckers little party.

[Paradise]

1. You are right on! n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

2. We shouldn't kowtow to repukes! Let them whine.

[autorank]

3. Who on earth would think that there was anything sacred about a party

for La Pore. She was instrumental in ruining the country! She was and is a total incompetent. She should and will live in shame for the rest of her life once the full exposition of FL2000 is written.

Ruining a party for someone who ruined the country, PRICELESS.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[joeunderdog]

6. Sure, it's all fun...

til someone loses a Democracy.

[Maddy McCall]

4. WTF? Maybe Keith is right.

Ever thought about that?

[jmatthan]

9. Question of ego

It appears from your post that Keith Olbermann does not want anyone else stealing his limelight, especialy someone like Bev and her group who have been devoting their lives for more than four years to show how corrupt the American democratic system is.

I already wrote about this when Keith took Bev off his first programme.

As much as I want Keith to keep on with his tirade, I think it is very short sighted of him not to co-operate with all those who have worked steadfastly to bring out the facts on this case. Just remember the airtime he gave the reporter who reported on the lockout at Warren County!!

Bev is not a threat to Keith. Bev is the one who is creating the news for Keith. I hope he realises it.

From Bev's last post I understand that maybe the rather foolish Kerry may also be realising this.

To be true, without the work of Bev the whole case of fraud would be NOWHERE - as I have been following her work for over three years.

You can see how many talk show hosts - Randi, Mike Malloy, Mike Webb, etc. all hold Bev in great respect and hang on her every word. They too have egos but they know where to give credit when credit is due.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[Lauri]

16. Keith Olbermann explains

"I’ve been avoiding this topic for four weeks now, but given what I understand are a lot of dropped jaws around the blogosphere, I think I better spill this.

I don’t think Bev Harris of Black Box Voting is doing anybody any favors."

more.... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/



I am not very familiar with the entire story behind BBV.org but I think KO explains his position very well. And I personally think he has been doing a very good job covering the fraud allegations and recount efforts.

[jmatthan]

23. It is Bev's word against Keith's

I heard Bev say that the appearance had been cancelled. Keith says that it was not his doing!!

However, I know Bev has been working tirelessly on this for four long years. She needs the publicity of her stunts as otherwise the mainstream media keeps ignoring her. In her case even negative publicity is positive as her work gets noted by a few more people.

An audience of 60000 in DU has limited worth, but it is a moral support group and a good sounding board. The few millions on Randi's and the Mikes (Malloy and Webb) shows do help, but it still does not have the power of mainstream. Unless outlets such as New York Times and Washington Post take her "work" for what it is worth - she cannot rest, whatever the stunts she has to perform to get her publicity.

It is easy for Keith to make comments Bev. Maybe Bev could shed some light, if she wants, about the truth of this. But that does not bother me as I just say to Bev, keep doing whatever you are doing. It is hurting where it should hurt.

The bulk of people sit on their backsides and make comments. A few give money. But such work requires a huge amount of money and Bev has been working four years with limited funds. She did not ask money from anyone then. For instance, her book was available FREE of cost for pdf download.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[AmyCrat]

5. Looking stupid is not fighting fire with fire

It's just looking stupid.

Read "All the President's Spin" -- you may hate Bush and he may be real dumb on the surface, but one thing the repubs have down-pat is spin and PR. Bev doesn't have spin on her side in this one because of a mistake she made.

Play it SMART (I didn't say "safe" or "clean"). Don't walk into traps that make you look like a nut.

[anamandujano]

7. The repukes have the press and the press

and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press and the press--need I go on?

--go Jessie go--

[tbuddha]

8. I don't think she looked like a nut at all

and I resent the fact you think she did.

[righteous1]

10. Well i will put it this way ,it didn't

help in the battle of credibility

[AmyCrat]

13. Resent it all you want. If I think it, others do too. That's reality.

I'm sharing how it appears to me. You can disagree if you like, that's your right. My only goal in sharing MY thoughts (and I'm sure I'm not the only one with them) is to make people think. If the BBV people agree and it changes how they make plans in the future, good. If not, fine too. I donated money to this company, so I have the right to criticise their efforts if I think it hurts the cause.

[RedEagle]

15. AmyCrat, what is your plan of action?

For example, the voting issue was labeled "conspiracy" just as soon as someone began looking into it and got press on it. Bingo. Put that label on it and used it from there on. They use the label anytime they want to discredit the message or messenger. That label happened quite a while back now, just from pointing out the flaws in previous elections.

We don't control the press. Journalists don't control what they get to report.

Rebecca Mecuri and Peter Neumann spent 10 years trying to make headway on the dangers of computerized voting. They worked the "system," just like they were supposed to and got little notice.

Please tell us how to beat they system when the system is used for containment?

Follow the directions, do it properly, .... all the "right" ways of trying to make progress- tell me how to gain ground in a system that is meant to contain, delay, discourage, and empty pockets before any ground is gained?

They WANT you to follow procedure, behave like nice citizens, believe that you can work through the system, their way with their protocals, to justice.

And five years from now, when you're only half way through and the government is controlled by one party, the courts are packed, and the media is even more consolidated and "on message," what will you have gained?

Please, I need some specifics, timelines and what you expect to accomplish in the better way that you see.

After over two years, lots of evidence, and the recent multitudes of problems with the last election, the media is still not investigating, not reporting.

If we can't get the media moving on that, how are we to get them on "our side" at all?

If you have a plan, I'd like to hear it.

I'd also like to hear how you would control spin, since, I assume, you don't control the media. How do you get your message out if you can't control how the media delivers that message, won't present both sides of the issues?

How do you control spin that is used against you no matter what, how, when, where, or when you do someting?

[AmyCrat]

17. This is your mistake

You're hearing me as saying "Follow the directions, do it properly, .... all the 'right' ways of trying to make progress" as if I'm saying don't be slick, don't be smart, don't play the media fiddle or play the game. Yeah, lets play the game at the same level as them -- SMART.

Clinton was impeached but he was still well liked. His approval ratings were good. He was not removed from office. His PR machine was a huge part of all of that.

I don't pretend to think it's EASY to infiltrate the media -- but we have someone on our side right at this moment who is part of the machine. Going out and giving him a reason to question the chosen methods of BBV just was not a SMART decision... and that played out on TV tonight.

There's been some momentum. Yes, a lot have mentioned tin-foil hats and conspiracy theories... so we should take actions that give them more reason to say those same things? I hope not. Bad publicity is not "good publicity" in this case.

Specifics? I don't have them. Give me lots of money in donations and time to work on it and maybe I could come up with some specifics. I know I'm as frustrated as a lot of people around here, and it makes me all the more frustrated to have one of those only organizations, BBV, walk into a trap that leads to discrediting them further. I did give some specifics about this situation already.

The repubs are good at spin and PR. Maybe we should take some lessons from THAT cause the dems SUCK at it. Whether I want to know it or not, I always know the republican talking point of the day, but the personalities on Air America can't even agree there was fraud.

I'm off on a tangent now (LOL)... but thanks for asking. Read "All The President's Spin" and you'll learn a lot about how the media has been used by many-a-president, right back to Nixon (though Regan polished it, Clinton refined it, and Bush took it to a whole new level). It's POSSIBLE if we play it SMART.

[AmyCrat]

19. and let me add THIS

perfect opportunity for GOOD MSM coverage and she's blowing it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x100284

[JWP]

28. KO is no journalist

And he's done us no favors. Stop lickin' the massa's feet, ma'm.

He's not been "covering" the vote-fraud story. I've bitten my tongue on this, but no more. He's an arrogant, judgmental SOB who has done nothing but grandstand for his own career advancement.

He's been using this issue, not covering it. The only facts he cites are regurgitations of OTHER reporters' and researchers' work, and he misrepresents those in many cases, all quips clearly designed to glom blogger attention from both sides of the fence.

I came to this conclusion with his first story and only reluctantly peek at them now and them when posted. He's a charlatan.

As for Harris, she's doing something and she's working with facts and reality, not useless punditry. Summons processors wouldn't think twice to serve LePore at her retirement party. Me thinks you have double standards for what's "ladylike" and wouldn't think ill if it were, say, Mel Gibson or Matt Lauer who took the opportunity to get some stage mileage serving papers you had to serve anyway.

What have these election officials in Florida done to deserve our reverence, anyway? Geez!

[New Earth]

29. ok dude whatever

[AmyCrat]

30. Did I say they deserve reverence?

Nope. Never said that.

I think Bev owes it to BBV not to act like a twit and give anyone in the main stream media, KO or otherwise, reason to call her such. That isn't playing the game wisely at all.

As for Keith's coverage -- ya know what? It's all we got right now. At least to me, he's tried to be balanced. Maybe we don't like everything he says all the time, but he seems to try to cover both sides of it. He's covered it almost every day since November 8th, and now states on his website that Bev has an invitation to be on his show.

I know *I* would like to see that happen. Instead of wasting time dressing as hired help and crashing retirement receptions for no other purpose than to grand-stand, get on a plane and go be on TV in primetime.

[VivaKerry]

12. No, the repubs have finesse in determining what people focus on

(and it isn't just because they own the press).

And what have people been talking about since this 'stunt'? Bev, black box voting, lapore. Bev totally succeeded. She put the LIGHT on the issue and an important player. That's a win in my book. In the usa, credibility means nothing. americans can't remember what they were talking about 2 hours ago. So it IS a win if they are still yakking aobut the lapore party..... a win.

[dzika]

11. One more for LePore

One more for LePore

Outgoing elections supervisor faces another lawsuit

Published Thursday, December 2, 2004 at 2:00 am
by Dale M. King

-snip-
The lame duck tenure of Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections
Theresa LePore is becoming as contentious as her post-“butterfly
ballot” era. The woman who dealt with more than 50 lawsuits as chief
of the county’s election department has to handle at least one more
before she leaves office on Jan. 3.

-snip-
Harris said she turned to LePore and said, “Since we can’t get your
attention any other way, I’m serving you with a courtesy copy of the
lawsuit we served in your office this morning.”

Harris said LePore refused to take the lawsuit, so she set it on the
table in front of the outgoing supervisor. LePore, however, said that
she simply turned her back on Harris when she saw she was being
maligned.

“There were 67 supervisors in the room and they picked me because
they knew they would get national publicity,” said LePore. “And they
did. I’ve been getting calls from all over the country.”

http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.php?src=news&category=Local%20News&prid=10311

[AmyCrat]

14. yeah, I posted it already

I posted this already

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=99821&mesg_id=99821

[aquart]

26. "Maligned"? Not even possible.

There is nothing too bad to say about LePore.

[skids]

18. If we can drop it, then Keith has just done us a favor.

Keith voiced criticisms to Bev that she needs to hear, in a voice that she will hear. Whether she agrees and/or acts on them that's up to her, and whether Keith keeps pressing her on it, that's up to him.

Which means, we don't have to talk about it anymore. It's between them now. Let them talk it out, and don't get in the middle.

We've got better stuff to do, like helping both Bev and Keith with up to date, accurate, tips and information.

[ClassWarrior]

20. With all due respect, buddha...

I think the answer to this is quite simple. Bev and Andy are a part of our community here, and they've always been upfront with us, as far as I can see. We need to know their perspective.

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

21. tbuddha, I respect you, this isn't about the luncheon Keith

has a point about Bev and BBV.ORG I am a fan of theirs. I am grateful for what they are doing. And I think they have done an extremely poor job of managing their public affairs. I LOVE THAT THEY BARGED INTO THE LaPore DEAL. So what. They have failed to use willing volunteers who are eager to help this cause in any way. They have failed to manage their website so that it's a useful tool for supporters. They are failing to reach people, the people at large, with their message and their facts. They have not been cooperative with people that want to help. They are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to do EVERYTHING with, from what I can tell, 3 people. GET REAL. This is huge and very important and time is of the essence. I think they are doing the issue an injustice. I think Keith has some valid points.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Yeah, KO said "Guerilla Activism" and "Guerilla Journalism" can be useful.

If they're used. If Bev has something time-sensitive and explosive, it deserves an airing, or we as fellow DUers deserve an explanation.

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

25. I agree ClassWarrior, like you said Bev and the gang are

DU people. They could certainly post info, even if it had to be "coded" or vague or whatever. I just posted on another thread an idea I had, do you think this Keith attacks Bev thing is part of a plan. A masterplan to turn the media tables. In a way, Keith all but gave her an engraved invitation. It seems, in a strange way, he may be trying to help her. What do you think? It's an idea?

[Woo]

24. Not gonna stick my foot too far in it...

BUT -- I had never heard of Bev Harris before I came to this site a few weeks ago -- I have been a regular MSNBC viewer for over a year and I'm quite familiar with Keith Olbermann -- so I have the tendency to go with who I know and that's Keith.

I've certainly been to the BBV web site and would hardly call it the picture of professionalism -- in fact it edges on plain tacky -- but I'm sure the folks who have been here longer possess a deeper truth about BBV and Ms Harris --

The way I see it... she's been called out on the mat -- it's put up or shut up time -- if she has the goods that will help us she should release them if her true intention is to stop the erosion of democracy by fraud... For weeks now she has been claiming to have some hard evidence -- or at the very least enough to raise a serious eyebrow(I've yet to see it) -- if they(the tapes) are as damning as she claims she will still be able to use them in the court of law, so that's really no excuse in my book. In a few weeks a evil despicable man will take control once again of the highest office in the land -- we've exhausted many of our limited resources(with the exception of taking to the streets) -- it's now time to take that chance and smoke 'em if ya got 'em -- you can't have it both ways. I wait anxiously to hear Ms. Harris's response.

[AmyCrat]

27. Woo... I just wanted to say I agree with you about the BBV Website

...I made comment about it a while back that went mostly unnoticed I think ;) -- I wish it was better organized and more professional looking. I'm an IT/Web Developer/Graphic Designer by trade, so I can make my way around the BBV site, but my mother and a lot of my friends, forget it. If they don't see it on the first page, they can't find anything... and the CUC forums are nothing but confusing to the average person.

Being out on the road, I'm sure their efforts can't be focused on presentation, but a lot of people have offered to help. I don't know if they've ever accepted any of it, but it would serve them well to do so.