Has anyone read Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"?

[babylonsister]

I just read this book won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction, so am curious. Thanks!

[Raven]

1. Yes, I have.

It is a haunting book. Beautifully written, strange and sad. Doesn't surprise me that it won.

[Astrad]

2. Yes it was amazing.

Spare and prophetic. It really stays with you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Yes. Just finished it. I kept seeing it brought up at DU.

Didn't like it. I don't see what the fuss is all about.

[Orrex]

4. Rosebud is the sled

Honestly, how can you miss it?

(BTW I'm a huge McCarthy fan, and I greatly enjoyed this book.)

[WCGreen]

5. Just read it a couple of weeks ago...

I liked it, the sparse style, the matter of fact chronology was really gripping...

And it did, after all, end with a glimmer of hope and sacrifice and destiny...

[pitohui]

6. i just read it, a bit of an oft told tale, this is ground covered before many many times

it's the old post apocalypse tale, most popular i suppose in the 50s thru the 70s, thinking of "a canticle for leibowitz" (probably not spelled right) here, but the on the road version may be most popularized by stephen king's "the stand" -- hell, king revisits this again in "cell"

my hubby was mean and compared it to ellison's "a boy and his dog," a comparison more apt than the author would probably care to admit

it's a little weird that this is an "oprah" book, i mean shoot me now

the logic behind it is sort of unclear, actually, so everything is dead except people, i mean everything, trees, plants, animals, everything, so there's really nothing to eat except old canned food and other people

it is gracefully written but past a certain point i wonder what the point is of putting stuff like that in your mind, since it is so unrelentingly grim, as for the hope at the end -- "spoiler" alert --



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yeah, if you consider it uplifting and a sign of hope that they don't cook and eat dad's body at the end, i guess you could call it a note of hope but clearly there isn't any, my guess is ten pages after the book ended, the boy's new family decided to cook and eat the kid to feed their real kids, i mean, what else are they going to do really?

the good thing about it is that the science seems questionable, i don't think this could really happen, if that much of the earth was gone, surely the humans would be gone as well and not have to suffer like this, i don't know of anyone who seriously expects humans to outlive the cockroach or the termite, the tree yes, i've seen predictions that we could conceivably cause the extinctions of most or all trees a la easter island

clearly the situation is unsustainable, it is not clear nor does it seem realistic that every tree, weed, rat, whatever would be dead except for 6 or 7 dried mushrooms, i mean, not even a termite or a cockroach, but since there is no more life remaining on the planet, it is impossible for the kid to grow up or come to any good end

[JitterbugPerfume]

8. I loved A Canticle for Leibowitz TOO

I guess I just love having the sh## scared out of me!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Felt the same. More spoilers.

I didn't have a problem with humans still being around, on account of canned food. Obviously they were all dying and close to extinction, and I'm willing to bet we'd be close to the last, if only because of the canned food.

I thought the ending was a cheat. And, frankly, so was stumbling on the 1960's style bomb shelter, stocked full of canned foods. It was one of the worst MacGuffins I've stumbled across.

[pitohui]

10. yeah agreed (spoilers still being discussed, folks, open with care)

i think he pulled his punches at the end because, frankly, you ain't getting an oprah nod if the end of the story is all "a boy and his dog" and boy eats the dead dad -- altho given the set-up i think it's the most realistic outcome, that or the kid simply lays down and dies too

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. I don't he did that to sell out

... to Oprah or anybody else.

I just think he didn't know how to end it. That's why he had the fallout shelter, he had his characters about to starve to death, but he didn't want them to, so he invented a shelter.

[pitohui]

13. maybe you're right

still it is a decision made not by the logic of the story but by meta-consideration

"they can't lay down and die yet, or it won't be a real novel, just a stinking novella, and novellas are hard to sell, hmmm, what to do, i know, a good old fashioned 1950s fallout shelter!"

:-)

[Orrex]

17. Do you really believe that that was his motivation? (SPOILERS)

Honestly? He couldn't think of a way to end it so he tacked on "the survivors lived happily ever after" and had done with it?

I think that it's more complicated than that. Throughout the book there's a theme of "providence" rewarding resourcefulness, along the lines of "the gods help those who help themselves." We see this in the finding of the shelter, in the finding of the apples, and in the successful looting of the boat Other doomed wanderers had presumably passed that same way before, but none of them discovered the comparative riches so close at hand. The boy's rescuer at the novel's end all but states this theme explicitly when he says "I don't know how you made it this far." He's better armed and is traveling with a larger company than were the father and son, and he acknowledges the slim chances that the two faced in their prior journey. To that end, the man's accomplishment of dragging the boy that far south, ultimately into the protective arms of a larger group, is a token of the reward for his resourcefulness.

It's perfectly reasonable to take issue with the book and the writing, but I think that "worst MacGuffin" and "where are the commas?" are somewhat simplistic critiques.

[pitohui]

22. you read that as a story about providence rewarding resourcefulness?

are we talking about the same book? in "the road" i read there is no god or providence, there is everything dead down to the last termite and those who live the best are those who are willing to enslave the remaining people, cut them up, cook them, and eat them

there is no food left, if the kid survives, he will end up doing the same, more likely a few pages after the book ended he was himself cooked and eaten to feed the new family's real children

i mean, come on, the world is somehow magically sterilized down to there are no plants left, there are no insects left, there are not even the cave fauna that would presumably survive a real world thermonuclear event of this point, indeed, we don't even know what event caused this, it seems supernatural because of the impossibility of a nuclear event leaving people alive while killing everything down to the last cockroach...if this is a story about providence, it's a very odd story

i don't think we are told the man took the boy down to the coast to join up w. a larger group, larger groups were dangerous, as we clearly saw along the way, he took the boy to the coast because he thought it would be warmer and there would be a chance of food, but the sea was also dead in other words he screwed up

the man's fantasy/memory about trout and fish -- the things that can never be repaired or replaced -- is the closing image of the novel -- a message as clear as can be that he fucked up and it can't be fixed -- a grim metaphor for humanity and nothing to say about providence, since providence obviously couldn't be arsed to do a damn thing about it

"a boy and his dog" for the oprah crowd!


this is a story about how cruel hope is when there is nothing good to be had from hope, with the true fate of the boy left open because, frankly, there would be no pulitzer and nothing but a cult readership rather than an oprah type readership if he was explicit as to the boy's fate -- my opinion anyway

[Orrex]

25. It's a science fiction tale

The basic conceit is "what if everything died except a sampling of humanity?" If you can't get past "I must know what caused the apocalypse," then you should read a different book. Perhaps something with a boy and a dog?

And if you find the term "providence" to be distasteful, let's go with "luck" or "happenstance," since it amounts to the same thing.

there is no food left, if the kid survives, he will end up doing the same, more likely a few pages after the book ended he was himself cooked and eaten to feed the new family's real children

That's one interpretation, sure. But if times are indeed so tough, it would have made more sense for him to kill the man and the boy and eat them both. As it is, the only evidence we have about the man's character one way or the other is that he didn't kill them when he clearly and easily could have done so.

this is a story about how cruel hope is when there is nothing good to be had from hope,

This is a story about the notion that hope is all we ever have in any case, and to examine the subject in starkest terms, McCarthy sets it against a backdrop of (apparently) global desolation.

the true fate of the boy left open because, frankly, there would be no pulitzer and nothing but a cult readership rather than an oprah type readership if he was explicit as to the boy's fate -- my opinion anyway

With respect, I think that your cynicism is unduly informing your critique. McCarthy has never sought critical praise nor media accolades; it would be contrary to his behavior over the past four decades for him suddenly to seek such recognition now.

My opinion, anyway.

[pitohui]

26. by your description it is not a science fiction tale

there is no way that a disaster could occur sufficient to wipe out all plants, all animals, and all INSECTS that would not have cooked human beings from the inside out

if it is trying to be science fiction, it is pathetic and a failure to the category since there is never any clue that the author knows anything about science, he clearly doesn't

this is not a story about hope, except if it is to say that hope is evil, to bring a child into a world where there is no future and the only future is ultimately people eating people is not a story that shows any positive side to hope by any measure -- this is a misanthropic world view to the limit!

one day if the kid survives he will be getting women pregnant and cutting babies out of them to have something to eat

the genre for this is not science fiction but horror -- and gruesome and horrible it is

i wouldn't want anyone i cared about, who had issues w. depression, to read this, really, i don't see how it could be recommended to anyone with a lively imagination who didn't already have a strong stomach for the gruesome, in the end, you are entertaining yourself by reading about such uplifting things as slaves being kept in basement, having pieces of their bodies cut off for food, and that sort of thing -- yikes!

there is certainly a place for the horror genre, but let's not pretend it is more than it is

[Orrex]

28. Holy moley. The post-apocalypse has been a sci-fi staple for centuries!

there is no way that a disaster could occur sufficient to wipe out all plants, all animals, and all INSECTS that would not have cooked human beings from the inside out

Philip K Dick, for one, has a whole bunch of post-apocalyptic stories in which the precise nature of the disaster is never discussed. All we know is that the world is fucked up and that people are still living in it. In Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? for instance, actual living animals are so rare as to be coveted treasures, but humans putter about more or less unaffected by the nuclear apocalpyse that preceded the story (well, aside from lead codpieces, of course).

There is absolutely no reason to require a science fiction author to be conversant with science beyond the ability to formulate a fictional premise based obliquely upon it.

this is not a story about hope, except if it is to say that hope is evil, to bring a child into a world where there is no future and the only future is ultimately people eating people is not a story that shows any positive side to hope by any measure -- this is a misanthropic world view to the limit!

That's a valid critique. You posit a sort of default nihilism in the wake of the novel's antecedent disaster, which likewise is valid. But you seem to suggest is that the only option is to abort all babies and kill all survivors, since nothing else can come of their struggle. Is that how you view it?

i wouldn't want anyone i cared about, who had issues w. depression, to read this, really, i don't see how it could be recommended to anyone with a lively imagination who didn't already have a strong stomach for the gruesome, in the end, you are entertaining yourself by reading about such uplifting things as slaves being kept in basement, having pieces of their bodies cut off for food, and that sort of thing -- yikes!

Well, for one thing, I somehow manage to force myself to bear in mind that it's fiction. I suspect also that you haven't read much McCarthy. Start with Blood Meridian if you want to see some really gruesome sequences, and then move onto Child of God. Of if you'd rather stick with something more cuddly, perhaps you should read a tale about a boy and his dog. Or a boy and his lightning-bolt-scar.

there is certainly a place for the horror genre, but let's not pretend it is more than it is

I accept that The Road is not to your taste and that you clearly have strong views about it. But let's not cast it aside simply because you feel that its Oprah-placating ending was tacked on and insufficiently optimistic, either.

[pitohui]

34. ok here's the deal

you say -- Start with Blood Meridian if you want to see some really gruesome sequences, and then move onto Child of God.

no i don't want to see some really gruesome sequences, the road is apocalypse porn enough for me, i don't need any more of this ugliness

you can't put philip k. dick, who has palpable affection for his characters, in the same paragraph with this dude, who is just...ugly, ugly, ugly

and he says he wrote this nasty piece of work for his son

[JitterbugPerfume]

7. it is beautifully written

I loved it

[pitohui]

11. certainly it is well written and worth reading

i don't mean to sound so negative in my critique, it's just that i class this as a horror story and not really as prophetic or sf for the reasons stated above, also as discussed above the ending was weaker than it should be after all that build-up and i felt it was for meta-reasons not pertaining to story


i also think if someone is unduly affected by horror film or fiction they might want to think twice about reading this because of some of the images

but w. these caveats certainly the book would have a lot to say to many people

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. I didn't like the writing, personally.

I felt guilty. Reading this book made me feel like a grammar nazi. His characters were starving for food, I was starving for a complete sentence.

[oldgrowth]

15. Great book A+ writing

[silverlib]

16. Help me - book club assignment on this book...(and spoiler?)

Write a five word sentence describing this book...

I thought the book was wonderful and am sure I missed some of the metaphors.

I love books that leave me with questions, and this was certainly a book of questions.

Am I weird in my thinking that I was relieved when the father died and the boy found a family that was more in tune to his humanity? When reviews point out the love between the father and the son, I certainly think of unconditional love and the boy loved the man no matter what. The man loved only the boy.

The only sentence I can come up with is

"Reverence for self or for humankind?" (and this could be considered over the five-word limit)

Anyone else want to try? (Please.)

[hamerfan]

18. Not to be flip,

but an accurate five word sentence would be:

"My apostrophe key doesn't work".

dumpbush

[hamerfan]

19. Okay, that was flip,

so how about,
"Nothing more precious than family".

dumpbush

[silverlib]

20. Both were good...

I really like the first one... unique and on target for what drives criticism of a lot of readers.

Thanks.

[Orrex]

21. Forgive me, but I believe that you missed an opportunity there...

My apostrophe key doesn't work.

Maybe My apostrophe key doesnt work, instead?

[pitohui]

23. "a boy and his dog" is how my husband summed it up in 5 words

there is a long tradition of post-apocalyptic "on the road" type tales, and while few of them revel in man's inhumanity to man as energetically as this book does, maybe the harlan ellison short story is a good enough reference since you need to sum up the thing in only five words

or you could try "world ends, hilarity ensues" that's only four words and is actually closer to being a sentence

we don't see enough of the boy's new family to know if they're in tune with his humanity or not, considering they are survivors, it's highly unlikely these are good and decent people, think about it for awhile, this is not a story about redemption

a lot of people didn't bother to read the last paragraph of the novel apparently, he makes it pretty clear that what happens can't be fixed

[elehhhhna]

24. I preferred Oryx & Krake, but I generally avoid futuristic apocolyptic stuff

[pitohui]

27. oryx and crake was a much more sophisticated tale

oryx and crake is genuinely science fiction, the road is more a parable of some kind, oryx and crake builds a complex future, the road pretty much pares down the world to ashes, man, boy

[Orrex]

29. "oryx and crake is genuinely science fiction"

Incidentally, by what standard do you make that statement, since Atwood herself apparently prefers not to classify it as such?

[pitohui]

33. by the standard of a published science fiction writer albeit in a decade past

atwood prefers not to classify it as such for marketing reasons but it is what it is

there is no science in the road, the science (or pseudo science if you like) is integral to oryx and crake

if you cannot tell science fiction from a parable or an allegory you need to read more until you can, because "it ain't rocket science"

[Orrex]

36. You seem unable to disagree without attacking

I've read plenty of science fiction, and a very good deal of it has little science beyond "some weird stuff happens that isn't magic." If that's unpleasant to you, I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

Since you're apparently familiar with PKD, can we agree that almost none of his novels have any hard (or even feasible) science in them? He himself has rightly described s/f authors' knowledge of science as "limited and unofficial," so he clearly knew very well that the science needn't be in the foreground. And as you correctly point out, "it ain't rocket science." Rockets, and the science that goes into their functioning, needn't even make an appearance in s/f.

Look, if the basic conceit of the novel--that humans are the pretty much the only survivors of the apocalypse--then fine. Call it a parable, if you want. Call it fantasy. Or call it porn, if it makes you feel better.

[pitohui]

38. you are not making a serious argument

science fiction is fiction that has a twist based on, duh, science

oryx and crake -- the whole plot turns on the guy creating this plague through scientific means, not thru witchcraft, not thru hand waving, but as a student of science, and as a young genius, creating this

the road, there is no explanation, there is no nothing

it's like a mystery book -- if you didn't find out whodunnit or howdunnit at the end of the story, you'd be pretty goddamn pissed!!!

the road is not science fiction because it is 1) not something that can happen, and 2) not something that can't happen that for, the purposes of the novel, we have evil Dr. Frankenstein or whoever make some excuse for why it happened anyway -- there ain't no freaking SCIENCE offered at all -- for humans to still live when even every cave insect and mushroom has been flashfried, that's just magic -- fantasy -- and a rather nasty fantasy at that

you know --

there is nothing wrong with not being science fiction

lots of books -- MOST books -- are not science fiction

and it's okay, some of the greatest books ever written (huck finn, the old man and the sea, many more) are not science fiction

there really isn't any disputing the point because what happened in the road could not happen, and the author did not try to offer any reason why it could have happened, for the sake of his particular "world"

BUT if it's billed as science fiction and put on a science fiction shelf, which is where i found it, then readers are going to be disappointed because there is no plot, there is no wild creativity, there is just slogging thru gray ash and ugliness

apocalypse porn suits me fine as a description

or you could just say it's mainstream fiction, since the story is probably most fresh to people who are unfamiliar w. genre fiction and especially science fiction

as for as philip k dick, yeah, he did a lot of hand waving, but he saluted the genre and bothered to wave his hands -- there are rocket ships, there is outer space, there are planets, and when ridiculous impossible things happen then some "scientist" is there to say why

he is science fiction like it or not

we got none of that in the road -- the genre is disrespected (probably because he doesn't even know or care that it exists)

[Orrex]

40. A very brief list of non-science-fiction books

the road is not science fiction because it is 1) not something that can happen, and 2) not something that can't happen that for, the purposes of the novel, we have evil Dr. Frankenstein or whoever make some excuse for why it happened anyway -- there ain't no freaking SCIENCE offered at all -- for humans to still live when even every cave insect and mushroom has been flashfried, that's just magic -- fantasy -- and a rather nasty fantasy at that

Well, that's about as arbitrary a definition as any, calculated to support your argument. And I reject point 2 because you're simply allowing a pre-emptive macguffin to make an otherwise absurd leap okay. By that token, even the lamest technobabble is preferable to an outright assumption that the author's world functions as-is, and I can't imagine why that should be the case.

as for as philip k dick, yeah, he did a lot of hand waving, but he saluted the genre and bothered to wave his hands -- there are rocket ships, there is outer space, there are planets, and when ridiculous impossible things happen then some "scientist" is there to say why

In other words, if the author placates you and says "just trust me on this," you're happy to call it science fiction. But if no such explicit acknowledgement is made, then it's inadmissible?

But even if we decide, for some reason, that we do need such a macguffin, then McCarthy handily provides it. We don't know the cause of the apocalypse: is it nuclear? a asteroid strike? a super-volcano? Frankly, it doesn't matter, because its entire purpose is to set the stage, and it does so.

But here's a brief list which, by your point 1, doesn't qualify as science fiction.

1. Just about all science fiction predating WWII
2. Just about everything by PKD
3. Dune
4. Star Wars
5. The Foundation series

and on and on.

Clearly the issue is where to set the goalposts. I'm not interesting in hashing out the semantics with you (eg, whether the science or the fiction need be paramount in the genre), but I admit that the reason I'm arguing strongly in favor of The Road as an example of science fiction is that you seem curiously strongly opposed to its inclusion.

the genre is disrespected

What on Earth does that even mean? If it means anything at all, then surely you must agree that "the genre is disrespected" by the abundance of shitty writing that permeates the science fiction canon. I can make another list for you, if you'd like.

he is science fiction like it or not

Incidentally, I've read very nearly everything that he's published, as well as unpublished portions of his Exegesis. I'm well aware that he's a science fiction author.

[bikebloke]

30. The Pesthouse by Jim Crace

I'm reading this book, which is similar to The Road. Though it appears to take place a couple generations after the collapse.

So far it's good.

[dannofoot]

31. Loathed it.

Bored me to tears.

Yes, I have enjoyed "Canticle for Liebowitz," "Oryk and Krake" and many other post-apocalypse scenarios...but good grief, I just kept wishing that ALL of the characters would just DIE already. Chapter after chapter, nothing changes, the dramatic action hovering in the gray ashen air...sorry, found nothing about it to recommend.

[Redneck Socialist]

32. Just finished it yesterday. Stunning and haunting

The last paragraph blows me away

Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the flow. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculite patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.

Beautiful.

[pitohui]

35. "of a thing which could not be put back"

yes, that is a moving paragraph -- and it's the one the oprahs and the positive thinkers who think this a novel about redemption never bothered to read

this really is about the end, there's no coming back from this

[Orrex]

37. Is it possible, in your view, that someone somewhere might like the book because it's well written?

You return again and again the implication that McCarthy has sold out to appease Oprah, or else that readers of the book don't quite get what it's about. That's a hefty pair of insults, neither of which you seem interested in supporting.

I suspect that pretty much everyone who read the book read the last paragraph--on what basis do you insult these anonymous readers?

Every good book need not end on a cheerful note, every redemption tale need not end happily ever after, and every science fiction tale need not bother with the particulars of physics and biology.

I can see that this is, for some reason, a major sticking point for you. If you don't like the book, then put it aside and move on to a happy science fiction novel more to your liking.

[pitohui]

39. plot is the skeleton of story and on that basis it is not well written

i am frustrated that the huge gaping bleeding holes in the plot spoil a story that could have been well written

he failed to create a universe that didn't fall apart 5 days later

it's frustrating, that's all -- i kept thinking, well, when is he going to deal with this, when is he going to get to this? until it became obvious that it was like a shitty movie where he feels he doesn't have to hire continuity

if you don't see the holes, i guess you don't see the holes

but even a paragraph or two in the right place could have saved this book, same as with some movies (and we've all seen 'em) that are beautifully filmed except for major gaping bleeding continuity holes that leave us going "wtf were they smokin?"

[Orrex]

41. PKD's further thoughts on the matter

Of course, in science fiction no pretense is made that the worlds described are real. This is why we call it fiction. The reader is warned in advance not to believe what he is about to read.

--How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later

also

in response to the question
What do you consider the raison d'etre, the chief value of science fiction?
To present in fiction form new ideas too difficult or vague as yet to be presented as scientific fact (e.g., Psionics). And ideas that are not scientific fact, never will be, but that are fascinating conjectures--in other words, possible or alternate science systems

--"The Double: Bill Symposium": Replies to "A Questionnaire for Professional SF Writers and Editors (1969)

Both excerpts from The Shifting Realities of Philip K. Dick.

I'll take PKD's notion of what qualifies as science fiction in preference to yours, thanks.

if you don't see the holes, i guess you don't see the holes

Holy moley, have you read anything by the famous s/f author Kurt Vonnegut?

[hiphopnation]

42. half way through

stunning, arresting -- am unable to put it down.

came here to post a thread about it.

if you start the first page, you won't have a choice but to finish it. totally engrossing.

can't read the rest of this thread for fear of spoilers!!

:thumbsup: