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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:00 AM
Original message
Magic realism, fantasy, surrealism, drug lit, sci-fi -
Can you define the differences and/or give examples of each. My daughter and I are divided as to whether the Chronicles of Narnia constitute fantasy or magical realism.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'd say fantasy
Magic realism is more of a postwar, Latin American thing. There isn't enough social engagement in Lewis to constitute "realism" IMO. Harry Potter is in some ways more realistic.
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momster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Allegory
It's the Christ (or your resurrection tale of choice) story, with a fantasy twist.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'd second that...
First time I read Narnia series I was in high school, and just enjoying a good story, but even then was a little creeped out by the very obvious Christian parallels.

When I read it later, after learning to read critically and spot this sort of stuff, it stood out a mile.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I called it fantasy with a large dose of Christian allegory ( not that
there's anything wrong with that!) but she says it's magical realism. Given that the story starts in a real England, she may have a point. Peter Pan has the same format. Think about having a St. Bernard for a nanny! Obviously, Wind in the Willows and Lord of the Rings are pure fantasy. What about Charlotte's Web? Not to mention Harry Potter. We were trying to think up titles in eahc category to help us define the category.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's fundamentally hard to define, though!
Generally speaking, if the characters actually have to migrate from the Real World to a different Magical Realm, without the two worlds ever mixing except at the portal, then it's not really magical realism, which involves a much greater integration of the two. Narnia, Peter Pan, The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Connecticut Yankee, The Wizard of Oz, Rip Van Winkle, etc. all involve an actual transplantation of the protagonist(s) into an alternate reality; they don't ask "what if the world were full of magic?" as much as they ask "what if you could go to a world that's full of magic?"

I haven't read any Potter nor seen the films, so I can't comment on that series.

Of course, there's no checklist writ in stone by which we can judge one story against another; at best we can make debatable assessments, and that's part of the fun.

Incidentlaly, Charlotte's Web strikes me as light fantasy focused on the conceit that animals can speak in human language. Aside from that, there's not much fantastical about the story. Heck, there's any number of talking-animal stories in film and literature, perhaps enough to qualify as a sort of genre unto themselves, but most of them don't involve magic in any overt way.

Marquez, Borges, and Cortezar are among the heaviest hitters in magical realism and well worth reading in any case.

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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Stick with the books when you decide to take up Harry Potter...
The movies, so far aren't exactly bad, but they've been kind of 'dumbed down' for the American audience, and there is so much cut out that turns out to be really important to how the plot is developing later down the road.

In fact, I wondered how they were going to handle Goblet Of Fire, seeing as how they'd already cut so much ground out from under themselves...answer is pretty well, actually.

The books are so much richer in detail and nuance; stuff you can't get in a movie.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Excellent point!
Edited on Tue May-29-07 05:13 PM by hedgehog
I came across an example of surrealism - Slaughter House 5.

On edit - why can't high school English be like this?
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momster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. Some examples, as you asked
Remember for everything I site here, there are a thousand variations, twists and reworkings. Authors are endlessly inventive and are altering reality even as we 'speak'.

I don't think Narnia qualifies as magical realism which seems to me to be a blending of magical elements (talking cats, ghosts sitting down to dinner, etc.,) and everything else completely prosaic. Esp. Lion, Witch, Wardrobe which is a magic portal story more than magical realism. There's no magical elements in the 1st, WWII, workaday world. The professor isn't a bear in disguise, the house is an old but perfectly canny house, the children are ordinary children. There's just this portal to another dimension...

Magical realism is more like the old Green Knowe books by L.M.Boston. There, the fantasy world comes right along with the 'real' world. They are inextricably blended into one. Magical or supernatural happenings cause little remark. Early Isabelle Allende comes to mind but even she has broken off from it now -- Zorro!

Straight or classic fantasy is like JRR Tolkien -- the history of a place that never existed, usually with grand themes and magical elements, though a 'alternate history' story can find itself classified as fantasy even if it has no magic. Fantasy is a big tent and can contain everything from vampires to fairies to you-name-it. But these are usually some kind of hybrid, not classic fantasy.

Sci-fi (or SF, the preferred reference if you'll pardon my snooty correction!) is usually people + tech oriented. The 'magical portal' of the Narnia world is created by some techno leap, maybe by aliens in the architecture, maybe by human ingenuity...usually about to go horribly awry! It is a world of 'made' things, rather than super or supra natural. Think Heinlein or Asimov (can't beat Foundation!) The best living creator of SF (who is now moving successfully into fantasy) is Lois McMasters Bujold. Read any of the Miles Vorkosigan books to learn what modern SF is.

I don't read surrealism. To me, anime is plenty surreal enough and I don't even want to know what drug-lit is!
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I've only ever read excerpts of Hunter Thompson, but I'm guessing
the weirdness is associated more with drugs than surrealism.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-03-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Appreciate your "preferred reference" correction
and the recommendation of Bujold's Vorkosigan series. It's super! Wish she'd write some more rather than shifting into the overcrowded fantasy genre.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Narnia" is fantasy with lashings of allegory....
Edited on Thu May-31-07 01:01 PM by Bridget Burke
And the categories you name tend to overlap.

I think that Magical Realism was first used to describe various Latin American works. Gabriel Garcia Marquez creates lush, convoluted epics. Borges was also convoluted--but less fevered. (The Colombian rain forest versus downtown Buenos Aires?) Back then, American "literary" fiction mostly dealt with adulterous/alcoholic goings on in certain Northeastern suburbs. (Or so it seemed.) I'd consider John Crowley (Little Big) an American Magical Realist. Then, there's Thomas Pynchon; start with The Crying of Lot 49.

Tolkien is the leading proponent of Heroic Fantasy. His friend Lewis weighted his fantasies with message--the Perelandra trilogy is more grownup than Narnia. In some ways, much of the world's literature is "fantasy." That is, anything other than realistic novels about "real" people doing "real" stuff.

Surrealist purists maintain that the movement ended when Andre Breton died. Most Orthodox Surrealist literature is in French--& much of it is poetry. But the movement was & is highly influential. Visit San Francisco's City Lights Books; the Surrealist section is on your right hand as you enter. www.citylights.com/catalog/?category_id=304
(See also Beat Generation.)

Which brings us to Drug Lit. Ken Kesey's Sometimes A Great Notion comes to mind. But, while drugs might inspire, it's damned hard to write while stoned. Remember that alcohol is still probably the #1 drug among writers!

Science Fiction originally dealt with the effects of scientific advances on humanity. But it changes with the times. Much of Kurt Vonnegut's stuff could be considered SF, but he took pains to avoid the SF ghetto.

In short--Fantasy & Science Fiction are in adjoining sections in the bookstore. Check for the colorful paperbacks with dragons or rocket ships on their covers. All the other stuff is under "Fiction/Literature."

I've just embarked on Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun, the massive followup to his equally massive Book of the New Son. Surreal, magically realistic, fantastic science fiction. A touch of allegory? And some of the best English writing around--genres be damned.

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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-05-07 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Magical Realism
The best example I can give you is 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

http://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Solitude-Gabriel-Garcia-Marquez/dp/0060929790

Narnia is fantasy.

(just my opinion, though)
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-06-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Also almost all of Charles DeLint's writings
His earliest stuff excepted. He calls it "Urban Fantasy", although Magic Realism is also a very accurate description.

DeLint is my favorite author, hands down.
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KatyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-04-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Everyone should read
100 Years of Solitude. such a strange, surreal, and very real. Great characters.

"It was thirty years later, as he faced the firing squad, that Colonel Aureliano Buendia was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice"

Truly, it's much more of an experience or immersion than simply a book you'll read.
Oddly (and I'm no Lit major, just an amateur), magical realism seems to apply to a lot of Faulkner to me, specifically Light in August
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well...
I think posters ahead of me have done well as far as magic realism goes, it seems to be mostly a Latin American movement that fuses the magical with the real instead of jumping to a whole other world to get from one to the other. Outstanding examples would be "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Garcia Marquez, "the House of the Spirits" by Allende, the short stories of Borges and Cortazar as well as "The Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie. Hey, any book that got the author put under a fatwa by Ayatollah Khomeini has got to be worth a read, right?

As for fantasy, that's pretty easy to define as well. Fantasy takes place in a whole different world, or at least the central focus of the story is on one. Under this definition Narnia would be fantasy, but then again, what the hell do I know? Otherwise, the style tends to be more grand and romantic overall than the other categories you've listed, and incorporate elements such as talking animals and the revival of the medieval way of life. The first may be present in magic realism, the second never. Standouts include, of course, Tolkein, the father of modern fantasy, as well as his modern followers Terry Brooks, Terry Pratchett, Tad Williams and Ursula K. Le Guin. Unfortunatley, the standard for fantasy writing seems to be series that stretch out over 20 books, which I find to be freakin' annoying, but other may appreciate. So it goes. I would also place Harry Potter in this category, because while its events supposedly take place in the real world, the central focus is on an entirely different society that experiences the magical element. Also, the grander themes of fantasy and its romanticism are much too abundant for me to place it in the category of magic realism.

Surrealism is harder to define, as its main forum for presentation would be in the visual arts, and also because its orthodox style has had almost no influence on modern prose. What that style actually was was "pure psychic automatism", according to Andre Breton, the poet who founded the movement and was later humorously labelled "The Surrealist Pope", for his excommunication of members of the movement such as Salvador Dali and Alberto Giacometti, often for purely personal reasons. What his style entailed was automatic writing, in which the writer would just sit down and let the words flow from his pen, with a specific resistance to any kind of logical order or presentation at all. It is easy to see why this most often took the form of poetry, and Pablo Neruda took inspiration from automatism during his encounter with surrealism in the Spanish Civil War. The first Surrealist novel, no a book, rather, because a novel would entail some kind of structure, was entitled "The Magnetic Fields", which was written one chapter a night, each by a different writer in the automatic style. However, this style for obvious reasons did not have mass market appeal, and so we mostly run across surreal subject matter when it comes to literature. Flann O'Brien's "The Third Policeman" is the first example of this that comes to my mind; it is seperated from being magic realism because in the new world none of the distinctly earthly elements remain, and from fantasy because there doesn't appear to be any talking animals or any other normal elements of that style. Sci-fi it is not, because of the unique ending of the book (SPOILERS) in which the main character discovers that he's in hell.

Sci-fi tends to depend on either aliens or far-off developments in human technology as a base for its premise, and sometimes can blend with fantasy, since they both fall under the category of soeculative fiction. One such writer would be Marion Zimmer Bradley. Modern "pure" science fiction tends to have limited appeal to the nerd audience, very similar once again to fantasy. I'm not a big fan of it for the most part, as it tends to go on grand series which I have already alluded to my dislike for. As far as classic SF goes, however, there's some substantial literature there, including Asimov, Bradbury, hs most prominent SF work being "Martian Chronicles", and Kurt Vonnegut, with such books as "Player Piano" and "The Sirens of Titan". For some reason, most sci-fi writers who actually recieve a broad fanbase depart from the style altogether. Who wudda thunk?

Drug Lit, on the other hand, is sompletely seperated from all above categories, for the reason that it almost without fail takes place in the real world, and any departures are explained by the presence of mind-altering substances. The first to advocate this new method was Aldous Huxley, who wrote "The Doors of Perception" about what benefits hallucinogens such as mescaline and LSD can have for the imagination. In fiction, it became mostly associated with the Beat movement, and not surprisingly is more often written about drugs than while on them. Some of the more standout examples are "Naked Lunch" by Burroughs, as well as works by Kerouac and Ginsberg.

Hope this helped!
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sigh..... Why can't more english teachers be like you!
I'm going to show this to my daughter who raised the question in the first place.


Seriously, we need to have English classes for people who read. Beating a single book to death just makes people head to the television.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. When discussing Drug Lit....
Don't forget "In Xanadu, when Kublai Khan"...

Otherwise, you've got a pretty good outline there.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Cool...... that's one fact that most English teachers leave out!
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. other early drug lit
such as Lewis Carroll (which is debated, but I believe), and Coleridge as well.

In fact, I would bet that several famous authors used opium back in the day, as it was fairly easy to attain.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. I think of Philip K Dick for Drug Lit that falls into the SF/fantasy realm
which is how I interpreted context in the OP.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-06-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Fabulist" or new wave fiction
Is something Omnidawn Publishers(ParaSpheres)are trying to champion, that is books of the kinds aforementioned that don't fit in any particular genre. The typical forerunners of new genres are atypical and so classic or unique unto themselves that the lineage they spawn can still hardly recognize them. "Gulliver's travels",
"Gangantua" even the stairically exagerated "Candide". Lewis Carroll's poetical dream fiction. Or the more recognizeable progenitors like Poe's deliberate creation of a new story type: the modern detective novel, out of Gothic blended with crime stories with the hero a Romantic rationalist fighting dark forces.

There are difficulties in seeing blends of fantasy and sci-fi and other breakdowns, the headaches of librarians and video rental stores, but going back to classic originals and seeing new things hard to define helps us to loosen up a bit and perhaps be intrigued enough to see where all these bits and blends came from and see each work as something in itself.
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terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. splitting hairs
does it really matter? Unless your having a realllly philosophical discussion on literature
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. I don't think the Narnia books are Magic Realism at all
In particular, they don't describe any version of an altered reality - in the books, the things really happened, despite the fact that many of the characters wouldn't acknowledge it.

I don't think the term was applied to literature until after the Narnia books had been written, also. It was a term originally applied to art.

I know that the Narnia books are religious allegory; it doesn't bother me, because I don't think they try to hide that (I first read them when I was 10 or 11 and it was pointed out to me ahead of time that this would be the case). In fact, I like in The Last Battle, when the posit that all religion is the same, and can take the form that the believer wants it to.

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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-15-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ironic, isn't it that those who condemn the Potter series will at the
same time praise the Narnia series...because it is well known to be a Christian Allegory. Now I love both series, and as far as I'm concerned, magic is magic and if Narnia magic is good, then Potter magic is good too. I just think it is seriously hypocritical of them to condemn magic and then study Narnia in their Christian Evangelical School Curriculum.

Besides, there are a lot of moral lessons in Harry Potter, like taking up for the weak, supporting your friends, standing up for what is right, fighting the evil doers. I have argued this with many people who won't let their kids read these books because some stupid preacher has told them their kids will go to hell if they do.

My next door neighbors teach a fifth grade Sunday School series on "God and Harry Potter", pointing out all this good stuff, which I think is great.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. When the first Potter film came out
I recall that some of the uproar was due to the fact that Narnia is a straightforward Good-vs-Evil tale, while Potter deals in the more realistic and more nuanced some-people-do-good-and-bad-things worldview. This perceived lack of a clearly objective moralilty in the Potter series caused some Fundy critics to condemn the series for leading children astray blah blah blah.

Narnia (and Middle Earth, for that matter) are much more compatible with the Fundies' basic good-vs-evil myth structure.

I haven't read any Potter, so I can't speculate beyond that.
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