Literary novels, it seems, take on the underclass, the problems of the

[WCGreen]

working stiffs, the ordinary made extraordinary in the eyes of the reader and the writer...

And so-called popular novels seem to examine the rich and mighty and make the extraordinary look as if they belong on the Springer show...

All I am saying is a well written book depends as much on the stories plausibility, at least to me, as the nifty plot turns or romanticized characters...

Post Modernism and the ironic insistence that a book needs no plot, just a string of events, is prevalent in both popular and literary novels...

I always wanted to be a writer...

To do this, I was told, you should write and read as much as you can...

I have and I do...

But I think when push comes to shove, the characters, the story and the setting all matter...

The really good books I have read over the last four years have all of those elements...

The decent books had one or two elements and the down right awful novels had nothing...

So are the musings of a tax preparer too burned out on shifting through people's financial situations to sleep...

[flor de jasmim]

1. It doesn't have to be the underclass that's taken on:

it can be any class, any situation, but I agree with you about the need for characters, story and setting.

It's like abstract painting--I have never understood why when an artist throws paint at a canvass or makes a dot of paint, that it is ART, but if I do it, it is not. I want art to be representational in some fashion. With literature I have no patience with a book that just seems to throw the words at me, which is the feeling that some postmodern books give me.

(I'm too tired to sound more coherent.)

[Sequoia]

11. Novels about rich people are basically boring.

They have no problems.

[truedelphi]

2. I mostly read suspense and thriller and mystery books

One of my all time favorites is "Silence of the Lambs"

It is basically a re-telling of St George kiling the Dragon, with the young FBI rookie Clarice playing the part of St George and the serial killer playing the part of the dragon.

I suppose the closest thing to literary fiction that I have read is one or two Michael Chabon books. The whole Pomo thing turns me off abt "literary" stuff.

[WCGreen]

3. Three of my favoite books are Michael Chabon,,,

Gentleman of the Road, The Wonderboys and The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Just finished The Yiddish Policeman's Union by Michael Chabon

an alternative history that posits that the Alaska Panhandle has become the Jewish homeland.

But I agree with your assessment of a lot of fiction. If I read a review of a book and it says that it's about a New York or Los Angeles professional having a midlife crisis and having an affair with someone younger, I lose interest right away.

I think one reason that I enjoy reading mysteries is that the author MUST keep the plot moving, and even in that genre, I prefer mysteries that have interesting settings, well-rounded characters, and considerations of ethical and political issues. I've lost patience with the "cozies" and anything that includes recipes, needlework, cats, or dogs.

My favorite mystery writers are James Lee Burke, Faye Kellerman, Marcia Muller, Sara Paretsky, Sue Grafton, J.A. Jance, Barbara Nealy, and Earl Emerson among the Americans, and P.D. James, Ruth Rendell, Reginald Hill, Robert Barnard, Simon Brett, and a number of other people whose names I can't recall off hand.

I also like mysteries set in foreign countries or in historical periods.

[KatyMan]

8. as an aside

I also like mysteries set in foreign countries or in historical periods

You might enjoy the novels of Craig Russell, which are crime novels set in contemporary Hamburg. Very interesting.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Thank you, never heard of him

Recently I've enjoyed James Church's The Corpse in the Koryo, which takes place in North Korea, of all places.

[KatyMan]

10. you might also try,

if you haven't already, the vast amount of British crime fiction--try Reginald Hill (Dalziel and Pascoe series), Stuart Pawson (Charlie Priest), John Harvey (Resnick), Ian Rankin (Rebus)...these are great writers, and some of the Reginald Hill novels are extraordinary ("Dialogues of the Dead", "Death's Jest Book" ). The only downside is that they're very British, and I think you might need to have a good grasp of British culture and pop culture to get a lot of the references. Hill's books can also be very funny, and the character of Andy Dalziel is one of my favorites an all literature.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. I'm a big fan of the Dalziel and Pascoe series

both in the books and on TV. I discovered the TV series first and was delighted to find that Andy Dalziel is even funnier and raunchier in the books than on TV. I think Warren Clarke does a wonderful job of portraying him, though.

[truedelphi]

5. I do love Chabon.

His wife Ayelette wrote a book in the mystery genre that was well done - and hilariously funny.

Now if the other well known writers out there turned me on that much - all would be well.

[Jim__]

6. Postmodern American Fiction - a Norton Anthology

There are some interesting authors on that list: Vonnegut, Mailer, Truman Capote, Barthelme, Richard Brautigan, Sherman Alexie, Joseph Heller, Don Delillo. I've read and enjoyed some of the books listed.

I tend to like literature with good stories and strong characters. But, I like some variety too. Some of the books in the Norton Anthology are definitely worth reading.

More here

[WCGreen]

7. I love Vonnegut, but because of his social commentary...

The same with Heller and Delillo...

[tishaLA]

13. A few suggestions...

if that's what you're looking for.

Have you read anything by Jeanette Winterson? She has written some excellent feminist postmodern novels. I am particularly fond of her earlier stuff, like Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit, The Passion, Sexing the Cherry, Written on the Body, and, with reservations, Art and Lies.

Zadie Smith's White Teeth is also an excellent pomo book with well-defined characters that examines contemporary multicultural Britain.

Paul Auster is another really great writer, although I sometimes find him too clever by half. But at his bests, like in his New York Trilogy and Moon Palace, he is wonderful.

[WCGreen]

14. Thank you...

I am really interested in Jeanette Winterson since I love looking at life through other peoples eyes.

[Zomby Woof]

15. Not necessarily

I understand your thesis is meant to be broad, and you make good points. But a few notable exceptions leap to mind.

Sinclair Lewis made his name exploring the angst and follies of the American upper middle class, with the right mixture of affection and scorn. He is usually thought of as being in the 'literary' canon, and not as much of the popular one.

John Updike was his heir, moving the characters to the post-WW2 suburbs and halls of academia. He has enjoyed the best of both the 'literary' and 'popular' worlds. In fact, it's wise to avoid making these distinctions mutually exclusive.

Neither writer made their characters Springer archetypes.


But rather than a laundry list of exceptions, I think it's safe to say there is no overriding theme to what constitutes "literary fiction". But one of the defining features of literature (if I may make my own generality) is that it often explores our common humanity.

(Having done tax prep work myself in the not-so-distant past, I say you deserve the much-needed rest for your hard work) :toast: