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I just finished Hemingway's Farewell to Arms.

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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:01 PM
Original message
I just finished Hemingway's Farewell to Arms.
O.K. The in the ghetto high school I graduated from, about 80% of the graduating class read at a "See Dick run" level. Needless to say, we didn't do a lot of literary analysis in school. Also, unlike in the more affluent schools where grads submitted applications to institutes of higher learning, at my school, you either went to trade school or submitted applications to various state penitentiary's. I chose trade school. We didn't spend much time on literary analysis there either, so maybe I never learned how to properly de construct a novel but...

I just don't get it. Why is this guy considered a GREAT writer. This, in my opinion, was one of the stupidest books I have ever read. Some guy goes to war. Guy meets girl. Inane duologue ensues. Guy decides he doesn't like war, takes girl and walks away. Girl is pregnant. They go to the Swiss alps. Both of them have an unending supply of money and neither of them has to work so they eat and drink and spend their time in a life of leisure. Girl dies.

I don't know. I think, maybe because my mind was never corrupted by the college over analysis machine I feel like the little kid who shouts that the emperor has no clothes. Hemingway sucks. Just because we are told he is great doesn't mean he doesn't suck.

In all fairness I have not read anything else he wrote (and it is unlikely that I will)so perhaps I judge prematurely. Anyone care to explain what I am missing here?

If so, you're a lovely boy darling.
Isn't it grand?
You're a lovely girl.

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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've liked everything I've read of his
except Farewell to Arms. I thought that of the things I've read (admittedly not much) that was by far the weakest. On the other hand, "For Whom the Bell Tolls" is my favorite book. I'd recommend reading that and "The Old Man and the Sea" before you make a judgment about his writing ability. Old Man takes about 3 hours to read, so start with that one. If you really don't like it, then I guess you're just not a fan.
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madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. I love Hemingway.
I took a course in Hemingway in college and truly fell in love with everything he wrote. I went on to read many books written about him. My favorite book of Hemingway is "A Movable Feast." It is simply beautiful. I am sorry you feel the way you do.
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madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. It is "A Moveable Feast."
I should not be allowed to type before noon.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. "college overanalysis machine"?
I think that if more people had the opportunity to go to college and learn to analyze, this country would be in much better condition. A closed mind is like a locked door; nothing can get in.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not closed. Simply not conditioned to think along
predetermined guidelines. Christ, I wouldn't be here if I had a closed mind. I would be posting about My pet goat over at FR.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Perfect! Absolutely perfect! lol.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. I went to college and I wasn't "programmed". nt
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I really didn't mean to start a flame war about the benifits or
detriments of a college education. I was not fortunate enough to be able to attend college so I can't speak from experience, however, one of the folks I periodically have dinner with, went on at length about how he would never hire someone who had not achieved the level of PHD because they had not been taught to think correctly. (I oversimplify the conversation but that was the bottom line.) I took offense to this attitude as I feel that this attitude requires a certain level of institutionalized thinking and gives no value to a fresh approach, unencumbered by the institutional thought process. On the one hand, having never being afforded that opportunity, I felt that I was being denigrated. On the other hand, I have to believe that the fact that, since the only opportunity I was afforded was self education, my path lends a certain " outside the box" perspective that has equal value.

Sadly, at the moment, I have no one else to discuss these matters with. If I brought up Hemingway at work, I would either been confronted with a Bush, blank stare, or I would be told that they must have missed that episode of "Dancing with the Stars".

I'm not asking for Socratic debate, just some respectful discussion.
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litlady Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Fascinating discussion here...
I agree that higher education can produce institutionalized thinking in certain cases (and even certain fields), but in the current anti-intellectual climate I'd prefer that to lack of thinking (Thomas Gray's "ignorance is bliss" is oft-followed!). And of course even within prescribed fields there is still the chance at creativity and individuality if you so choose. As a teacher, I see the daily possibility to use critical thinking, communicate about world events, and other important things. However, it is without doubt that not all students take that up. Some of the stuff I have seen even from my own students is surprising (blatant racism, conservative rhetoric, religious blindness, etc) but there is still the hope that they may leave with more than they came with. I agree too with the value of self-education, and my own self-education is as valuable to me as my degrees.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Anyone care to explain what I am missing here?
I wish I could, but I didn't get Farwell to Arms either.

OTOH, I loved For Whom the Bell Tolls. I read a collection of short stories by him a couple decades ago and liked a few, didn't care for most.

One of the things that makes him stand out is that his style, featuring short, punchy, declarative sentences was a powerful contrast to the florid prose style that preceded him. (Ever try reading anything by John Galsworthy? Best selling author of his time, in the end of the 19th century - completely unreadable.)
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Well, it is definitely a unique style but, to me, it seems like
a slightly more eloquent version of "See Dick run." "Run Dick run." "Isn't Dick a lovely boy?" "He's such a lovely boy."
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber" has some nice brutal insights about men/women
Edited on Mon Jun-30-08 12:18 PM by villager
...relationships.

And I read it even before the hellbroth ending of my own previous marriage!
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. There's nothing to analyze and that's the point with Hemingway.
He projects nothing onto the characters or their situation. They/it are what they are. They're not symbols nor metaphors and, while the characters do have some emotional life, Hemingway is not interested in their Psychology.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Well, I tested this work of intellect
And I think it belongs in the extravagance of breath column.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is simply a matter of personal taste.
Your post shows that you are literate enough to write paragraphs that make sense, no matter where you went to school. Not everyone who posts on Internet message boards can make that claim.

I read several Hemingway novels, in school and out. I never cared for his work either. "The Old Man and the Sea" was the only book he wrote that I liked. That is a great book.

Read "The Old Man and the Sea." You may like Hemingway better after you do.



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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. Try something else - just don't stop reading. nt
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sorry I left the impression that this is the only book I've read.
I was lucky actually. I started reading when I was four. I'm 57 now and read about a book a week. Have for many years. I go crazy if I don't have anything to read.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I'm just finishing..

..Barack Obama's book _Dreams from my Father_. He's a pretty good writer.

What books have you enjoyed? Authors?
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Lord, it would be easier to tell you what I haven't read.
I have read all of the major religious texts in at least one translation. Politics from Sun Tzu through Tip O'Neil. Philosophy from Plato to Alan Watts.
Economics from Marx to Galbreath. What I haven't read is the Federalist papers or anything by Ayn Rand.

Authors who have had a major influence on my life; Ian Flemming. Hey, how could a 12 year old boy not be inspired by James Bond?
Alan Watts. Introduced me to the teachings of Buddha.
John Steinbeck. The Grapes of wrath probably had a more profound effect on me than anything else I have ever read.

At this point, I read for pleasure. I don't read political books because I am already angry enough about the state of our nation and don't need to fan the flames. For escapism, I love Robert Ludlum. Sort of like Flemming all over again with incredible plot twists. For pure joy, I read Follett. One of the truly great writers of our time. Unfortunately, I have already read everything they have written and am in a constant search for other authors.

Perhaps you have suggestions?
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. I haven't read that one yet, but I agree with the recommendation of 'Old Man.'
I also thought 'The Sun Also Rises' was a great book, especially considering Hemingway was only like 27 when he wrote it, but even less happens in it than in 'Farewell' (mostly the main character traveling around getting drunk), so it'd probably annoy you.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Hell, if you are looking for a "walking around getting drunk" novel
I would WAY recommend Tropic of Cancer over Sun Also Rises any given day.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. "The Sun also Rises" happens to be in my collection
but I've chosen "War and Peace" as my next book, simply because it was there and I can't afford the bookstore right now.
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. check out the short story 'The Killers'...and look for the movies....
1946 (Burt Lancaster) and 1964 (Lee Marvin, Ronald Reagan, John Cassavetes and Angie Dickinson)...

Hemingway's short story is haunting...the movies 'expand' the story and both do it justice...

FWIW: Ronnie is great as the bad guy...and Lee Marvin is, well...Lee Marvin...
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. Fair enough. I recind my earlier declarative.
Hemingway may not suck. A Farewell to Arms, however, will have no lasting, profound effect on my life.
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litlady Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. As an English professor with literature degrees...
I confess I cannot stand Hemingway. :) A Farewell to Arms was required to read for my graduate degree and I didn't like it though it is actually better than the other stuff I've read of his. Sun Also Rises is in my top ten least favorite books. Men Without Women is some rather boring masculine fare. His work is commonly assigned, from Old Man and the Sea in high school to "Hills Like White Elephants" in undergraduate English courses. I love literature of so many periods and genres but I have never enjoyed Hemingway. Many find his work sparse and either love it or hate it because of that. Stylistically, his work is interesting though I don't enjoy it. However, Henry James in some of his criticism of fiction admits that regardless of how supposedly literary a style is, there is still no accounting for personal preference of subject matter. So even knowing what criticism says of Hemingway's merit, I still do not enjoy stories about bullfighting, boxing, or fishing. Because Farewell to Arms is a critique of war, I thought I would like it more, but as noted I don't enjoy his style either!
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. A critique of war? No, I don't think so.
If you can just decide to leave a war, and, you have sufficient resources to live comfortably without actually having to work for a living, you are not protesting a war, you are just taking the easy way out. The same path followed by Bush. The rest of us slobs have to get a job and somehow earn enough to pay for our room and board weather there is a war going on or not.

Would, that I could just write a sight draft and drink my way through the next several years.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. You're confusing the character and the novel
Additionally, Henry doesn't "just decide to leave a war;" he escapes summary execution and flees the country. A very different scenario.

Would, that I could just write a sight draft and drink my way through the next several years.

Yeah, that's all it takes. :eyes:
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ebdarcy Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. I read that book in high school.
We also read a couple of his short stories. I didn't like the short stories, and I hated that book. The book is painfully boring, awkward, and redundant. Hemingway's writing leaves me cold. It was the first time that I had read something that I absolutely could not stand.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. LOL
Listen, son.

I know at least a few people who didn't go to ghetto schools, they went to prep schools, and ivy league colleges, and graduate school, and have PhDs in English, and they think Hemingway novels aren't worth their weight in pulp.

I agree with you.

Hemingway sucks.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-01-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yeahhh!
Crap is crap! Just because they tell you it isn't crap does not mean that it isn't crap!

Thank you! I feel better now.
Bud
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I was a big Hemingway fan 50 years ago
but I've gone back and tried to reread the novels and they just don't hold up very well. The short stories still work for me, and I read them again and again. On the whole, Faulkner and Fitzgerald were both better writers IMHO.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. I'll jump on that train.
His structure is BORING. It lakes emotion and depth. I don't think Ernest owned a thesaurus.

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grillo7 Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. Hemingway was pretty brilliant, actually...
He re-defined the short story, and introduced the iceberg theory of writing, in which the author intentionally omits several key elements for the reader to infer...kind of like life itself. I'll admit that A Farewell to Arms isn't wonderful as a whole, though there were parts of it that I enjoyed. However, A Moveable Feast is one of my favorite books, and many of his short stories are very good.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. I love Hemingway.
His writing is unusual but I find it appealing.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. A longish defense of Hemingway
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 08:52 AM by HamdenRice
I have to admit I read "A Farewell to Arms" a very long time ago, and it seems I should re-read it. But right now, I am reading "The Short Stories of Earnest Hemingway," a collection, and it reminds me once again what a genius he was.

First, let me address "how you read," and how that might be connected to certain kinds of education (as opposed to intelligence, which you obviously have). It's really a matter of what you are reading for. Most people, without a lot of exposure to literature classes, read for plot -- the events, or "what happens next." Really good high school English and college courses get students to start thinking about the "message," of the story, beyond the plot. These courses also get you thinking about context -- what was going on in the world and in the writer's life and how these are reflected in the work. The writer is commenting about his world from his perspective, and A Farewell to Arms is basically an anti-war novel by someone who had seen the First World War first hand.

Also, For the last two years, I've been writing fiction and taking workshops for writers, and at a late age I am learning how to read fiction as a writer -- and it's a completely different experience yet again. Now I'm often focusing on "how did he do that?" or "why did he make that choice?"

So let me offer a bit of memory-fogged analysis of Hemingway's war stories.

The single most important thing I think to keep in mind when you read these works, is that World War I was possibly the most grisly, most wasteful of human life, most horrific, and above all futile and pointless war ever fought in the modern West, and Hemingway was right in the middle of it as a volunteer ambulance driver. As a "manly" young athlete from the American midwest, and then cub newspaper reporter, he wanted to go fight in the war, but was unfit due to poor eyesight, and so volunteered to be an ambulance driver. On one of his first assignments, he came to the assistance of a munitions factory that had blown up, and had to pick up the scattered body parts of dozens of Italians, mostly women.

Moreover, Hemingway was himself gruesomely wounded -- first blown up by a mortar, and then hit by a burst of machine gun fire. This ended the war for him and he then spent a lot of time recovering in a hospital.

When you read Hemmingway's war stories, therefore, you are reading the work of a man suffering from an atrociously severe case of what we know now as post traumatic stress syndrome. In fact, Hemmingway never got over his demons, drank profusely for most of his life, suffered from bouts of depression, and eventually killed himself. Moreover, more perhaps than any other war, the First World War made no sense -- neither politically as to why it started, nor tactically, as to what the generals were doing, nor on the personal level of the soldier, who was told to run headlong into mass slaughter by machine gun nests for yards of useless territory. World War I brought everything into question by those who were there. It destroyed meaning -- religion, politics, heroism.

Have you ever seen the film, "Born on the Fourth of July"? Imagine if Ron Kovic -- the gungho kid who volunteers for war, whose body is destroyed in Vietnam, and realizes the futility of what he has done and the sacrifice of his own body, and becomes an anti-war activist -- had written fiction instead of becoming an activist. Hemingway's war stories are all about shell shock and disillusionment.

It is oddly fortuitous that the style Hemingway honed as a reporter serves his purpose well as a disillusioned, almost nihilistic observer of violence, whether in war or the bullring. One aspect of reading that I was only vaguely aware of before taking writing classes, is that in addition to plot, point of view, etc., one of the things the writer is doing is creating a "mood" through language. The style that you think of as "see dick run, run dick run," actually can (if you let it) convey a mood -- the mood of a shell shocked story teller, a narrator with what psychologists would call a "flat affect," a person whose emotions have been drained or suppressed, or are controlled to maintain his sanity. When you let it catch you up, it's truly an amazing reading experience, but you have to imagine him and let him get in your head. You are being shown things by a narrator who has been to hell and back and is flatly and without emotion pointing out the pointless, useless violence of life -- gored bullfighters, wounded soldiers, washed up boxers.

I find it ironic that Hemingway is thought of as a writer who championed "manly" activities like war, boxing, bullfighting and hunting. In fact, Hemingway is often observing them in an ambivalent way. His bullfighting stories are often about washed up bullfighters whose spirits have been destroyed in the ring -- having been gored, they have become cowards or drunks, and are barely able to dispatch the bull without making a butchery of what should be a clean artistic kill. The war stories are universally anti-war, and the hunting stories reflect the nihilistic horror of recognizing that to live we have to kill.

Also, I agree with the iceberg theory of Hemmingway. There are things he simply doesn't mention, but that are obviously there, and he wants you to figure it out. For example, to be really blunt, in all those stories about soldiers recovering in the hospital during World War I, it is pretty obvious that some of the patients or even main characters are impotent, or worse have had their dicks shot off. The stories makes absolutely no sense unless you recognize that Hemingway wants you to know this without his telling you (they will hint darkly at it), or they are otherwise disfigured or disabled. So war, far from being a "manly" activity, is like bullfighting, a de-masculinizing, or even castrating, experience.

If you want to "get" Hemingway, you might want to start in smaller doses. His short stories (especially his "short shorts") are amazing, but you can't read them for "plot" -- that is for "what happens." One of his greatest masterpieces, "A Clean Well Lighted Place," on the surface, is just about two waiters arguing about the last customer of the night, an old man who continues to drink in their cafe, thus making them keep it open; but it's really about how anyone can possibly go on living after they cease to believe in God or any form of meaning in the universe (this being written in an age when most people believed in God). You might want to take a look at a few other short-shorts, and if you "get them," you could either decide he's great or a fraud, and whether you want to read more. Try "A Day's Wait," "The Capital of the World," and "The Killers".

I was completely blown away by "The Capital of the World." On the surface, it's once again a story about a very cheap hotel-restaurant. Three waiters impatiently watch customers while wanting to be elsewhere. Hemingway seems to have been influenced by cinema (movies) which were still pretty new then, and were introducing new narrative techniques, which Hemingway adopted: He "jump cuts" back and forth between various rooms in the hotel, showing hearbreaking juxtapositions between a washed up bullfighter, priests, and two goofy young waiters who love bullfighting and eventually have a shocking gruesome accident. It's a masterpiece, and a bit depressing as a writer, because it makes me think, I could never do that!

One more quibble. When Hemingway's novel suggests that the main characters leave the war and can travel around Europe, it doesn't mean to suggest that they are rich or privileged. Europe was impoverished and economically devasted at the time, many countries still at third world levels of development. Hemingway spent some of the 1920s in Europe, where impoverished American artists could live and write or paint literally on pennies per day. Similarly, when you suggest, the main character could just leave the war, it's because, like the real Hemingway, he was a volunteer ambulance driver, not a conscripted soldier, and even so he barely escapes a firing squad, and the couple only manage to survive by escaping into neutral Switzerland, by rowing across a huge lake. This is not the story of the privileged opting out of war, but of refugees. This is an example of how historical context can completely change a person's reading of a story.

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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. A truly excellent analysis!
:applause:

The only point on which I'd differ is in the priority you place on authorial context. Without diminishing Hemingway's horrific experiences or the obvious fact that they informed his writing, I think that his work stands very well even if you don't know anything about the man. When critiquing a work, I prefer not to involve the author's biographical information, because IMO such a practice is inherently too inferential and subjective to yield a satisfying analysis of the work itself.

That's not to say that biographical criticism has no place, nor do I deny that I enjoy learning about an author's life, but I try (with varying success) to read the work as if it were anonymous and found in a cave somewhere. That way I feel that I am better able to offer a pure critique of the work's quality.


Regardless, your assessment is very well conceived and articulated. I'm about 40 pages from finishing A Farewell to Arms and have found it, in fact, to be an excellent book.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks -- about context...
I certainly agree that focusing on the author's life can be overdone. I especially don't like to see the marketing of the author's life substitute for the excellence of the author's work -- something that is especially happening with the steady replacement of memoires over fiction.

On the other hand, in the OP, we see an attentive reader willing to give a lot of thought to a book, and the absence of a few bits of information -- that it was extremely cheap to get around Europe -- caused the author's work to be misinterpreted. Of course, that was social/economic context rather than authorial context, but I suppose the same could happen in the case of missing basic information about an author.

Thanks again!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. i really liked your comments too
we see an attentive reader willing to give a lot of thought to a book, and the absence of a few bits of information -- that it was extremely cheap to get around Europe -- caused the author's work to be misinterpreted.

i was gonna get around to replying and i never did, but your reply was so magnificent that i really don't need to drag out my own feeble remarks

context can make a difference, one fun i like to do is to always check the date when a book was published, esp. if i know NOTHING about the book, i try to return myself back to that time and remember how things were then as i read

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grillo7 Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Great post!
It would be nice to have some more in-depth discussions on here about specific works, too. Sometimes talking to others can really shed new light on how you look at or understand a short story or novel.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Thanks, and I agree
Edited on Mon Jul-14-08 12:24 PM by HamdenRice
A lot of posts consist of, did you read X? Yeah that was really good!

I like your metaphor of the "iceberg" theory of writing. Hadn't heard of it before, and it really explains him.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Wow! Thank you for this eloquent and most informative
response. You obviously put a great deal of thought and effort into it and,I am most appreciative. I guess this was what I had hoped for when I posted the original post. I knew that Hemingway is considered one of the "great" writers yet, having read Farewell, I just didn't get it and was hoping someone could help me understand what I was missing. You most certainly exceeded my expectations.

Sadly, my limited formal education did not provide me with the tools to do this kind of analysis and I'm not very good at guessing what the author is trying to say if they don't tell me. For example, I read Catch 22 when I was 12. Although I enjoyed it as a story, even my feeble 12 year old mind could, at some level understand what Heller was saying about the stupidity of bureaucracy, especially as it relates to war and the idea that "They can do anything they want to do as long as you can't stop them" sticks with me to this day, 45 years later.

Another example. I am about halfway through War and Peace (I am really not trying to portray myself as some kind of pseudo classic novel snob. I just happen to not have an abundance of disposable capital to spend at the bookstore at the moment and have a library full of the classics that I never gotten around to before. Truth be told, as a kid, I loved Ian Flemming and as an adult, nothing gives me as much pleasure as a Robert Ludlum novel, and I know, I know, he just writes the same novel over and over again but for pure escapism, you can't beat it.) I am throughly enjoying it. Tolstoy's insight into the human condition is amazing. His character Pierre's struggles with an essentially existentialist mindset, well before Sartre, Nietzsche, or Kafka made it popular is nothing short of prescient. and his anti war message, as captured in the following excerpt, is unmistakable, to wit;


"In other words, an event took place opposed to human reason and human nature. Millions of men committed against one and other a countless number of crimes, deceptions, treacheries, robberies, forgeries, issues of false money, depredations, incendiary fires, and murders, such as the annals of all the courts in the world could not equal in the aggregate of centuries and yet which, at that period, the perpetrators did not even regard as crimes."

Leo Tolstoy
an excerpt from War and Peace.
circa 1863

You don't need a PHD in literature to understand that, all you need to do is turn on the T.V. machine.

Anyway, I really do appreciate your taking the time to help me understand Hemingway and I agree with grillo7 and HamdenRice that this discussion has value above and beyond the usual, "Did you read" stuff we usually get here. Thank you ever so much for your contribution

As an aside, If you're not doing anything, I have about 500 other titles I would like your input on.
Bud
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
40. I listened to THE SUN ALSO RISES on audiobook some time ago

(wasn't that the one about Jake and Brett Ashley)? I didn't care for it.

ALso some short stories in h.s.--didn't care for those either.

I DO NOT see the fascination with Hemingway.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Can you be more specific? What do you dislike, in particular?
You're certainly entitled not to like his writing, but I would be interested to learn what it is that you don't care for.
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