Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Just finished "No Country for Old Men" *spoilers*

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Books: Fiction Donate to DU
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 01:44 AM
Original message
Just finished "No Country for Old Men" *spoilers*
I'd seen the movie. Just finished the book.

Anybody else read it? I have a few questions -

Throughout Bell's narrations, when he refers to the "country" does he mean the US or his area of Texas?

Did you find his position sympathetic? Was he conservative, or was he just getting too old for the times? Specifically, when he equated abortion with euthanasia. Did it bother you either way?

Who was the protagonist? Moss or Bell? I think Bell was, but I'm not convinced.

This was the first McCarthy book I've read - what else should I try, or should I try at all? "Bloom Meridian" looks interesting.
Refresh | +1 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did you like it? A comparison to movie vs. book would be fun. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I liked it very much
and the movie was very faithful to the book - except for a few very awesome chapters that weren't included, and one chapter was changed significantly, but ultimately, it didn't affect the story.

The first half was like a script of the movie - everything was spot-on. Then it deviated a little, but I don't think any of it was meaningful. In the end, the movie and the book had the same effect on me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Wow. That's a positive review if I've ever read one. Thanks. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Did you see the movie?
What were your thoughts?

I came out of it thinking "WTF"? I didn't know if I liked it or not - and I'm a huge fan of Coens.

But the movie stuck with me - for days and days afterward, I thought about it. And then I realized it must be a great film. And then I thought some more and I was sure of it.

"Dancer in the Dark" was the only other film experience that did that to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. No I haven't seen it, but now I want to. Makes you think?!
Those are the best kind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Read "The Road" next. It is -- if possible -- even bleaker than "No Country..."
which makes it sort of right for the Bush years, actually...
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. OK
I will. I have it on my Kindle. "The Road" and "No Country for Old Men" are the only available McCormack books. I read the first chapter of "No Country" and bought "The Road". I just love the style, the mood, the language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. don't read "the road" you'll be sorry you have that ugliness in your head
don't say i didn't warn you

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Hehe
no, I'll read it. I don't mind "ugly" art.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. yeah that's what i thought
but this goes beyond ugly, this is "cult of cruelty"

just don't say i didn't warn you :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. I read the novel first, then watched the film several times...
Edited on Thu Jul-31-08 02:43 AM by Wetzelbill
Very fascinating adaptation, when I first read the novel, I just knew it had to be made into a film. I was searching for the film rights because I actually wanted to adapt it and I saw the Coens were doing it. I actually thought in my head as I was reading it, "This is perfect for a film.... the Coens would be perfect to make it."

I would say start with "Blood Meridian" it's a different style of writing, he's very adaptable, unique in that he's such an artist he has actually switched his style and voice a little bit over time. That's kind of like a person switching their fingerprints almost, lol. Also check out "The Road."

I think he means not just Texas, but his particular part of Texas. He's a rural guy, he thinks of the world in his local terms. Country or derivatives like "this country" means the basic area where they are from. Like I'm from the Montana highline and people like my dad, a farmer, and lots of middle aged and older people frequently use the phrase "This country." I even do it, lol. But what it is, is a metaphor for not just his own "country" rural Texas, but, yes, the United States as a whole. He literally means his local part of Texas, but, figuratively and metaphorically, he also means the United States.

Yes I think his position is sympathetic, I'll address that better in a moment.

Part of it is he's lamenting a generation gap. It's a societal phenomenon that every generation thinks the country is going to go to hell because these young kids coming up listen to crazy music and pierce their ears or wear low ankle socks etc. In his case, the world is changing, he came across something he has never seen, with Chigurh, and, for the first time he doesn't know how to deal with it. So in a sense, yeah he does think things are going to hell because people don't say "Please or thank you" like they used to, but that is a sort of generational phenomenon we all get. Hell, I'm 33 and already I think these kids coming up listen to shitty music, lol. We all get like that. But what's sympathetic is the personal aspect of it. At some point in our lives, we all face our own mortality, we all feel like maybe something has passed us by. He is lamenting life. He knows now that he can't handle this new breed of psychotic criminal, he's too old to do it. When he goes and visits his friend, the man in the wheelchair, the friend says "This country is hard on people" (paraphrase) but he also adds that Sheriff Bell hasn't "got anything new." Everybody feels like that to a point. The main point is, life is hard, it takes a toll on us, especially us regular people who work and strive and deal with everyday pressures that come with being, say middle or lower middle class, or even impoverished. Life is tough, but in rural areas, people always feel this sense that they are different and they had to tough it out and strive in a different way than some people have. Life is simpler, in a sense, but life is also a little tougher in ways too.

The ending is telling. Bell is thinking of his own mortality. He realizes that he is twenty years older than his father ever was. In his dream, he meets up with his dad and his dad goes ahead. And he looks up and sees the fire up ahead where his dad has set up camp. And he sees it getting closer and closer and closer. He knows soon he will be at that fire, right where his father is. And where is his father? Well his father in reality has passed on. Bell is wary of that, he knows his time is limited and soon enough, he'll be gone too. It's hard for him, because he was a sheriff in a rural community. An active man of a certain prestige and wisdom. Now he's just a retired guy with little to do but hang around at his house. He can't do the things he used to do as a young man, and for the first time it's hitting him. He thinks right now, that in this tough world, there is no use for an old guy like himself who can't be as productive as he once was. I think he's somewhat wrong, but that is up for interpretation. I believe there is room for the wisdom of elders etc. And if you notice, in the beginning of the book and the film, Bell talks about how he always loved listening to the old-timers talk. "He never failed to do so" he says. Well Bell is an old-timer. Probably some young cop wouldn't mind having a career like Bell. Like his partner, played by Garret Dillahunt in the film. On film you can see he looks up to Bell a little. I get that from the book too. He listens to Bell, asks him for his opinion on a few things. Bell doesn't yet realize his worth, he just knows he's older and doesn't feel that he is the man that he once was. We all reconcile with that. I have, even as a relatively young man, I retired from my athletic career, and still in my head, I dream of doing things that my body probably couldn't do anymore. It's why Brett Favre decided to retire than comeback, you know? It's hard to move on when you still think you might kind of have it, but then you sort of know you don't. Not with Favre or athletics exactly, but with anything. Bell is living that right now. I'd like to think that he settles in and becomes happier over the course of the next few years. He was a sheriff since his mid-20s, now he isn't, that takes time to move on from.

I don't think he is conservative so much in the political sense. I'm from a rural background and most people are naturally a little conservative, they go to church, they have guns, they are appalled at certain things as human beings that policymakers have to deal with politically. I am naturally conservative in many ways too. I would think Bell and most people in the area generally vote for Republicans or the old school Texas type Democrat, but they are more conservative in the sense that they believe in certain values they grew up with and don't identify a lot with politics to begin with. Older people tend to be a little more conservative too. I think part of it is he is getting older. He's beginning to be appalled by the newer world. Keep in mind this was set I think in 1980. Roe vs Wade hadn't been around all that long, shit in a small town like that probably nobody had abortions, it's a foreign and dangerous concept to him that only happens in "big cities." A guy like Bell, he doesn't look at abortion and think: "Well hundreds of thousands of women die around the world from nonmedical abortions, and they are tortured with coathangers and bicycle spokes, and plus I believe a woman has a right to have her own say about her body and medical care." That's something policymakers should consider, but not just your regular Joe, so to speak. He thinks of abortion and thinks the same things I always thought growing up, that it's heinous. That you are killing a life. You might as well be putting down another human, right? Of course, from a policy standpoint, you have to balance that out. And also consider he's a rural guy and has animals, horses and dogs etc. He's probably had to euthanize or shoot a much loved dog that got into a porcupine or was hit by a car etc. He's appalled at death. He has a simpler view of something like abortion, he just knows it's killing a life and it's a bad thing. That's why Chigurh scares him. He can't make sense of an indiscriminate killer. It's too much for him. Just the same as the thought of abortion is too much for him. He understands neither, and he has a certain amount of fear and abhorrence of both. He is an older guy facing mortality and he sees forms of death all around him. He can't accept any of it, not gracefully anyway.

I think they both were the protagonists. But, in the end, more Bell. We see the emotions through his prism. We never really know what Moss feels too much. We don't really know how he thinks or what he questions about this all. We don't even totally know why he did something so foolish as to go back to the scene after he got the money. We kind of know, but we don't have his voice in our ear, talking about it, reflecting on it. It eventually becomes about Bell and his place in life. How he saw this young man get himself and his wife killed over money. How there was a brutal sequence of events set about when a young man found some money that a bunch of drug dealers killed each other over. It's Moss that we pull for, because we see him set in contrast with the bad guy, Chigurh, from the beginning. But, in the end, it's not about Moss, it's about Bell and how he views all of this and the way it makes him feel.

Well hell, that was fun, I liked it. Thanks for the questions!
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. good points, all
Thanks for the detailed response! Much appreciated. Nothing to disagree with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. didn't read it but you know jimmy chagra just died a few days ago, right?
supposedly an inspiration for chigurh/sugar

i had no idea the dude was even out, apparently he's been in the witness protection program gambling away at casino arizona, maybe crime pays after all
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Coincidentally
Chagra was the man who hired Woody Harrelson's father to murder a federal judge. Harrelson was in "No Country for Old Men" - his character was killed by Chigurh
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. i don't think it *was* a coincidence
Edited on Fri Aug-01-08 08:00 PM by pitohui
they knew all this, it was part of the "in joke" in the making of the movie...is my impression

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. I understood "Country" pretty broadly
as meaning this time, this place. I don't know about a protagonist. It seemed to me that the book had two centers of gravity, Bell and Chigur; Good andEvil. There's one point where someone asksBell if he really believes in Satan, and Bell say he used to, then he didn't, but that now maybe he did. It was really spooky the way the bad guys, especially Chigur, always seemed to be 2 steps ahead. The first time Chigur finds Moss it's because of the transponder, but how is it that the heavies are waiting for Moss at the motel later on when he hardly knows himself where he's headed? It seemed almost supernatural.

I read it as an allegory about the battle between Good and Evil. Good (Bell) was filled with doubt and uncertainty. Evil (Chigur) was as certain as Old Nick himself. Moss was just the authors lab rat, running a maze. At the end, the score was pretty lopsided: Evil about seventeen, Good Zero.

It was pretty well written, though I thought the Sheriff's Mayberry manner was a little overdone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I agree
If anyone hasn't who has read "No Country for Old Men," one needs to read the poem "Sailing to Byzantium" by Yeats. Many things about the novel will become more clear (first line of the poem is the title of the book).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Damn! I gotta read this book!
I have read Blood Meridian and The Road ,and I love his dark way of looking at life


very unique
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 22nd 2024, 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Books: Fiction Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC