Just read Atlas Shrugged

[BoogDoc7]

And it isn't dated (it's just pre-computer age). Ayn Rand has a VERY good evaluation of the liberal mind...and possibly where, given extremes, it could lead us. I don't see it as a definite future, but as the end of an improbable road. The philosophy is more important.

"...learn to treat as the mark of a cannibal any man's DEMAND for your help. To demand it is to claim that your life is HIS property - and loathsome as such a claim might be, there is something still more loathsome: your agreement. Do you ask if it's ever proper to help another man? No - if he claims it as his right or as a moral duty that you owe him. Yes - if such is your own desire based on your own selfish pleasure in the value of his person and his struggle. Suffering as such is not a value; only man's fight against suffering, is. If you choose to help a man who suffers, do it only on the ground of his virtues, of his fight to recover, of his rational record, or of the fact that he suffers unjustly; then your action is still a trade, and his virtue is the payment for your help. But to help a man who has no virtues, to help him on the ground of his suffering as such, to accept his faults, his NEED, as a claim - is to accept the mortgage of a zero on your values."

It's an odd mix with my Christian faith, but I know that I agree with the notion that no one has/should have a right to demand charity of me. It should be freely given.

[tanyev]

1. You have a stronger stomach than I do.

I tried to read the Cliff Notes of Atlas Shrugged. Couldn't do it. :puke:

Welcome to DU.

[JanMichael]

4. I am applying for scholarships right now;

oddly enough one of them is the Rand Foundation or some such shit. I doubt I am going to win that one, but wouldn't it be funny as hell if those jerks paid for a flaming liberal to go to school to study religion?

Stephanie

[unblock]

11. the rand corporation has nothing to do with ayn rand

it's short for "r and d", research and development.
they are a non-profit and give out lots of scholarships.

[JanMichael]

13. I put "Rand" in quotes because I couldn't remember the name of the place

But, it is indeed an Ayn Rand deal; to win you have to write an essay about Atlas Shrugged.

[unblock]

20. ah, there is an "ayn rand institute"

probably trying to foster confusion with the rand corporation....

[rememberingGandhi]

36. Using a 'best Rand essay' award ...

... would be hilarious.

However, you're probably wasting your time because its very hard to hide what you think of the book. Consequently, you'll read it and struggle to understand it, and still won't win.

There is also the danger that they might convert you :)

[MikeG]

2. Its a cartoon. All the liberals are ugly.

[Lerkfish]

7. the only people I know personally who adore it are republican jerks.

(present company excepted, probably), and they attempted to use atlas shrugged as a bludgeon to attack liberalism and liberal christianity...

I admit to not having read it (nor do I desire to), exactly because those who admire it spend a great deal of time in arrogant self-delusion of their own grandeur and the invalidity of every thought process but their own. If that's the end result of reading it, I"ll pass.

[JanMichael]

3. "to help a man who has no virtues....."

To define a person as having "no virtue" is to define yourself as omniscient. Who has the right to define a person as such? What virtues do you have?

Be very careful of what you think you agree with just because it sounds good at the moment.

Remember, these same conservatives that would agree with that paragraph are very likely to be "pro-lifers" too; so...what virtues does that helpless fetus have?

What makes all people great is their potential.

Stephanie

[BoogDoc7]

17. Not necessarily...

Potential is cool, but those who fight for their potential are the truly great ones. You're not great if you sit around and ignore who you really can be, or make excuses because something might actually take some work to realize.

[JanMichael]

18. It is extremely hard to realize "potential" when

a day is exhausting just putting dinner on the table.

Think about it; how many "greats" has the US produced in the past 200+ years?

How many of those "greats" got there with NO help?

[papau]

5. How did you get past the sex scene? "She could feels his wealth and

power..." (my paraphrase from a poor memory)

And not one look at how those with money or power got their power or money.

Just a cry for help - the help being so that they only had/saw charity cases around them that showed the right attitude.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

6. In college we called it

"Atlas Farted" Sorry, this lit major hated it.

[el_gato]

8. it's garbage

[BoogDoc7]

9. I think...

That I understand the virtue issue, and don't quite agree with Rand. However, I DO agree that no man should demand charity of me, and also that there are people that drive this economy far better and far more than the "workers." They contribute to the economy far more than any small business ever can, and employ more and produce more (which we HAVE to have big business for some things, simply because of capital resources necessary to accumulate).

I think that we're also getting to some point where we think that simply because someone loses at a competetive business that it's a bad thing. Competition is good, and it DOES mean that someone loses, but that's not the point - the competition is. Yes, there is TOO much corporate protection, but there is probably too much restriction as well. Double taxation, stymied trade regulations, etc.

I think that also we somehow believe that simply because someone makes a lot of money that someone has to not get it, implying a fixed money supply out there - which doesn't happen in America. We literally "make" money, and I'm not talking purely printing more paper. We make more of value and create it out of work and investment. The rich get richer, and the poor can still get more. Yes the poor have gotten a little less in recent years, but usually in America the poor get richer as well, and I daresay we have the "richest poor" in history.

[Lerkfish]

10. If you believe the poor are the "richest poor"...

you are buying into right wing talking points.

but that's ok. 4 more years of Bush's contract on the american economy and you'll experience it first hand.

[BoogDoc7]

15. Question, then...

Is there another country with the lowest income bracket that makes more money than ours?

[Lerkfish]

16. question, then:

what exactly is your agenda?

This country is one of the richest countries to start with, so the standard is higher.
But the poor still starve to death here, we have increasing homeless.

again, what exactly is your agenda, and why are you spouting republican talking points and then defending them?

[NationalEnquirer]

23. I think thats a good question.

She hated liberals and loved absolute Capitalism.
I wonder what this posters true agenda is here..

[MisterP]

43. remember Carnegie's babble about the "most productive bees"?

they worship big biz, as seen above--never mind that they often pay no taxes, take tax breaks, crush small businesses (Randroids think it's good--but Galt's Gushing, or whatever their pesthole of a Somalian dream is called, had no megacorps), and raise prices while lowering wages.
Then they pretend that they don't like the corps because they're the "Moochers" (how Nathan Lane can you get)--but they clearly worship them.

[el_gato]

19. the U.S. does not have that high of a standard of living compared to other

countries especially those in Europe

think health care and education, for example

[el_gato]

12. expanding markets essential to capitalist growth require theft

A basic tenet of capitalism is market expansion, i.e. market forces reaching into areas heretofore not a part of the market. How does this happen? By force. A good currently example would be the PPP (Plan Puebla Panama) which is about "privatizing" communal lands and subjecting them to corporate vultures.

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/16.html

This plan and the initial efforts to implement it will result and
is already resulting in the impoverishment of indigenous people form this area thus resulting in pressure to migrate.

The trite bullshit spouted by Ayn Rand and her ignorant followers sounds good until you start doing a little research.

[Sufi Marmot]

28. Ok, I'll bite...

I went through this stage, mercifully briefly, about 15 years ago...

I think that we're also getting to some point where we think that simply because someone loses at a competetive business that it's a bad thing. Competition is good, and it DOES mean that someone loses, but that's not the point - the competition is. Yes, there is TOO much corporate protection, but there is probably too much restriction as well. Double taxation, stymied trade regulations, etc. Don't they cancel each other out? God forbid the government should be able to set certain restrictions on corporate behavior in exchange for the largesse corporations manage to extract from the public (these days corporations more often than not write the legislation...) Lets face it, corporations would scream bloody murder if the government suddenly yanked all the cushy subsidies and incentives they get and they had to deal with a truly free market...

However, I DO agree that no man should demand charity of me, and also that there are people that drive this economy far better and far more than the "workers." They contribute to the economy far more than any small business ever can, and employ more and produce more (which we HAVE to have big business for some things, simply because of capital resources necessary to accumulate). Don't they suck up a proportionally larger share of public resources?

-SM

[PA Democrat]

39. Suggested reading for you:

Perfectly Legal: the covert campaign to rig our tax system to benefit the super rich- and cheat everybody else by David Cay Johnston

and

Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillips

They provide irrefutable data as to just how much the ultra -rich have benefited, at the expense of everyone else, and how that process is eroding our democracy.

Dare you say "we have the 'richest poor' in history"? NO.

According to the Center for Budget and Policy priorities, real income for the bottom 20% income earners fell by 12% from 1977 to 1999. Conversely, the income of the top 0.01% rose by 558%.

During the same time period, if you also look at how the tax burden has shifted increasingly to the middle class and poor, perhaps you'll have to rethink those concepts of "forced charity".

The most egregious forced charity that I see occurring is the charity given to corporate interests at the expense of the majority of Americans who do not reap the resulting benefits accrued to those at the very top.

Ayn Rand is pure bullshit IMHO, and if we continue on the path we are currently on, our middle class and our democracy will be destroyed and the ultra-rich will be forced to live in armed fortresses.

[terryg11]

14. The Fountainhead is her real masterpiece

in my opinion. Atlas Shrugged I've yet to finish. Started reading it too soon after the fountainhead and it was too much. I found most of her characters in AS too one dimensional before I quit reading

[NationalEnquirer]

21. Have only read one of her books.

You know she absolutely LOATHED liberals...

[JanMichael]

22. The ONLY Atheists that I personally despise are the Randroids.

Simpletons to the nth degree AND worhiping a mediocre writer.

You know who succled at her teat? Greenspan, yep, that Republican whore of a dog.

Yes, I'm an Atheist too, but not one that Worships the miserable God of Selfishness.

[Jim__]

24. The quote does not address a real issue

Ayn Rand has a VERY good evaluation of the liberal mind...

I'd really appreciate a definition of THE liberal mind, And that's not nitpicking. If you can't define it, it's rather difficult to evaluate it. Then, I'd like to here Rand's "evaluation" of it.

Now, as to your quote:

...learn to treat as the mark of a cannibal any man's DEMAND for your help. To demand it is to claim that your life is HIS property - and loathsome as such a claim might be, there is something still more loathsome: your agreement. Do you ask if it's ever proper to help another man? No - if he claims it as his right or as a moral duty that you owe him. Yes - if such is your own desire based on your own selfish pleasure in the value of his person and his struggle. Suffering as such is not a value; only man's fight against suffering, is. If you choose to help a man who suffers, do it only on the ground of his virtues, of his fight to recover, of his rational record, or of the fact that he suffers unjustly; then your action is still a trade, and his virtue is the payment for your help. But to help a man who has no virtues, to help him on the ground of his suffering as such, to accept his faults, his NEED, as a claim - is to accept the mortgage of a zero on your values.

Where to start? When was the last time someone demanded your help? It's somewhat of a strawman argument. People don't generally demand help; but, it sure is easy to argue against their "right" to make such a demand. Here, as in most places, Rand doesn't engage the real issue. Let's just look at the domestic side of the equation. The real issue is how to divide up the resources of the nation. There's only so much land (and wealth begins with land), and so, there is a limit on what people can own. The natural way to divide it is by force. I take as much as I can hold and I defend it against all comers. That's terribly inefficient though. You spend most of your time defending your territory. To avoid this, people enter into agreements as to how to divide the land. As long as everyone adheres to this agreement, we can avoid large expenditures on defense and we can spend our energy developing resources.

But, if the agreement was made 200 some years ago (e.g. our Constitution), then, some people today might feel they are not able to compete for their fair share. They demand some renegotiation. This is the type of "demand" you normally hear. If you refuse to renegotiate, the people who feel cheated, refuse to adhere to the rules. How to divide resources is always under negotiation. That's not normally someone demanding that you help them; it's someone refusing to adhere to an agreement they never made and that they feel is unfair.

The issues are far more complex than Rand acknowledges.

[MisterP]

44. ironically, he's DEMANDING we read the book

[Bridget Burke]

25. So--when do you graduate High School?

It was very popular among the bohemian set at my school, back in the late 60's. I read it but was not impressed.

That year, I also read LOTR and The Once & Future King. Both much better books.

[Dookus]

26. LOL

I was about to ask the same question. The only people I know who love that book are far-right libertarians and high-school kids.

[toddaa]

37. Thinking the same thing

I went from rabid fundamentalist to rabid objectivist right up until I got a job. Reality has a way of "fixing" your head.

Anyway, Ayn Rand's greatest sin is being a horrible writer. Molesting the English language is not a virtue.

[NuttyFluffers]

27. i've yet to read that, still not interested...

and it sits here in my house, like the movie Titanic, just waiting. mom read it long ago, asked her how it was. she said it was rather stupid and wanted to throw it away. my mom adores books and rarely, if ever, wants to throw books away. i asked to keep it, to read or at least sell. maybe i can hawk it at a good price, it's an older version... wonder if i'll ever get interested in reading it. so far it sounds myopic and childish. i think there's an Angry Flower comic that satirizes it, and many people said it fits to a T.

[enki23]

29. what a load of crap

it's completely beyond me how anyone thinks that to be in any way "profound." a VERY good evaluation of the liberal mind? leaving everything else aside for the moment, what the hell is "the liberal mind?"

this is a truckload of red herrings set in a bed of lack of understanding and doused with a few hundred gallons of pure liquid semantic bullshit.

[Zorro]

30. It's a good book to read

I enjoyed it, and wouldn't hesitate recommending it to others. It is somewhat dated, but to me that added a certain charm.

For those that express a philosophical opposition to reading it, I think it is important to form your opinion from personally reading it. You are shortchanging yourself by dismissing this book because of stereotyped assumptions of the author's politics. I'm not an Ayn Rand apologist, but I believe it is vital to have first-hand knowledge of the subject to have an informed discussion.

[BamaLefty]

31. I've Read It And Liked It

Sure, she isn't a liberal. But I liked the plot of the story.

A recommendation from BamaLefty. :)

[Seeing Red]

32. Hmm ...

I thought Atlas Shrugged was good, but it was too long for what it said - and the points that she made aren't that new or groundbreaking anymore. It was more of a confirmation or affirmation of what most of us (or at least us liberals) already accept.

[Bridget Burke]

33. Which specific ideas do you find liberal in Rand's work?

And I'd watch the phrase "us liberals"....

[NorthSideCubsFan]

34. Best thing that I can say about Ayn Rand

is that she is never hypocritical. Her POV if implemented in the real world would screw people over, but at least she doesn't cloak it as being for their own good.

I thought some of her non fiction was challenging. It did make me think a little harder about why I disagree. Her novels on the other hand are hopeless treacle full of cardboard characters.

[heidler1]

35. I believe that we're all selfish, but she condoned selfishness to the

point that it was socially unworkable. I believe that our herd like needs make us react in a reciprocal way that does just barely work. Rand's view was more libertarian than liberal.

[Vanje]

38. My favorite part was the 2-3 pages....

....describing the smoking of cigarettes as almost holy, the pinacle of mans' genius conquering nature...mastering the element of fire......or some crap like that.

Its been a while.

What did Ayn Rand die of?

[Coexist]

40. Ugh - waaaaay tooooo long for what she wanted to say eom

[bobbieinok]

41. read it in college (years ago) because my roommate recommended it

I kept reading it after the first 50 or so pages trying to figure what she could say that could need another 400 or so pages

what I remember now...the sex scenes are all basically rapes.....anything other than total selfishness is evil

[Uncle Roy]

42. kick