Reading Herbert's Dune for the first time (no spoilers)

[Orrex]

I haven't seen any of David Lynch's film version in about five years, and I haven't seen it start-to-finish in at least fifteen years, so I'm reasonably well-insulated against preconceptions formed from that film. I also haven't seen any of the SciFi Channel incarnations, so I'm likewise untainted by that telling (for good or ill).

This is the edition I'm reading, and I'll refer to it specifically in a moment.

I'm about 100 pages in, and so far I'm really enjoying it. The writing and characterizations are good, and I must admit that I'm pleasantly surprised to see it largely free of the stereotypes still infesting much science fiction in the 1960's. I also really like the way the book starts without giving a ton of back-story and also without resorting to extensive infodumps. I know that some readers of s/f enjoy infodumps and the authors who use them, but to me they always seem, at best, disruptive and, at worst, symptomatic of unsophisticated writing, though there are exceptions, of course.

In terms of a fully-formed universe, an obvious comparison can be (and often has been) made between Herbert's Dune and Tolkien's Middle Earth. This is made more poignant by the presence of many characters who've witnessed/participated in the major events that conspired to yield the current situation, and when this is done well I think it can give a powerful reality to the story. Herbert has accomplished this here, I think.

I can't review too much, simply because I'm only about a fifth of the way through, but I do have some criticisms, mostly stylistic:

I don't care for Herbert's pervasive use of italicized type to denote a character's thoughts. For the most part, these thought-passages simply aren't necessary, because Herbert's writing is strong enough to carry their meaning without resorting to them. Similarly, I don't care for the not-infrequent passages in which one character thinks in italics and then another character does so immediately thereafter. Here's a caricature of what I mean:

Charles faced Emily with an uncertain air. Does she suspect that I'm not really a vegetarian?
Emily eyed him criticically. I suspect that he's not really a vegetarian.

I've seen several like this so far, and they really grate on me. Sure, it's a stylistic choice and one's mileage may vary, but I just don't care for it. I'm not thrilled with the italicization itself, for that matter, but that's not Herbert's fault; a parade of college profs drove that formatting option from my brain.

But along the same lines, I'm not a big fan of the so-called third-person-omniscient point of view. Ursula LeGuin has famously defended it as the most difficult POV, and I simply disagree. When the author can reveal any character's thoughts in what amounts to real-time, I find too often that this option can become a crutch or perhaps a substitute for a different method of characterization. Herbert's got a lot of subterfuge and scheming going on in his story, so it's understandable that he'd resort to this narrative device, but I still don't like it all that much.

Now, a word about the edition I'm reading. It's a small font, which is fine, but sometimes it's reduced by about half a point for no apparent reason, because it doesn't usually cut down on lines-per-page or anything. I don't know what could explain it, other than a deliberate choice to switch typeface mid-page, but to what end?

But hey, those are pretty much my only complaint abouts the book. At first I also didn't like how the Bene Gesserit were mentioned on every other line, but that has waned, and I understand now that it serves to establish the importance of the BG in the goings-on, so that's okay.

Anyone care to share their thoughts about this work? For now, lets omit discussions of the sequels and stick to the first book.

Thanks!

[lazarus]

1. I just finished the entire series

Dune to Chapterhouse Dune. Again. I've read it several times.

The internal dialogue thing eases up a bit, but I never really noticed it all that much as an annoyance.

He never does give you infodumps, except a bit of one at the end of the book, after the story is over. Basically the backstory of Kynes.

There are a lot of subtleties to the book that you miss the first time you read it. At least, I did. I was picking up new stuff this reading, too. See if you can spot the origins of the Fremen. :evilgrin:

[LWolf]

2. I loved Dune.

I first read it as a teenager, and it still sits on my shelves. I read a few of the sequels, but lost interest in the direction Herbert took the story. I never got all the way to the end of the series. If someone could tell me that it returns to a more human level at the end, I'd re-read the whole thing and finish it.

I've seen a couple of movie versions; imo they didn't do the book justice. Enjoy!

[lazarus]

4. It becomes very human

The last two books are very human, much more centered on a few people, instead of the grand schemes of God Emperor (my favourite of the series, btw).

Duncan Idaho is there to the last, of course.

[LWolf]

9. Glad to hear it.

I'm almost tempted to check in and finish the series.

[Salviati]

11. It's well worth it...

I personally didn't care much for God Emperor, but Heretics and Chapterhouse are both great books...

[China_cat]

3. Even if you'd seen the movie yesterday and started the books

today, the only thing you'd find in common would be a few character and place names. The film was THAT bad an adaptation of Herbert's work.

[Isntapundit]

5. My favorite

Of all time!

I've read Dune several times and read the entire series through once.

I though Lynch's enterpretation was masterful and right on the money. The actors were all perfectly cast for their roles. The mood evoked was right inline with how I pictured it. Great set and fantastic costume design. If you can get past the internal dialogue thing, it was a good script too.

On the other hand, the Sci-Fi channel version was not any of the above. It was a sad dissapointment and they guy they cast as Paul Atreides acted like a sniveling, whining, adolescent with no sense of dignity or greatness.

Lynch's casting of Kyle McLaughlin was the most questionable decision in the entire cast and obviously one based more on nepotism than any other consideration. But even so, at least McLaughlin was tolerable or even believable as Paul Atreides (if not way too old).


My second favorite novel in the series was God Emperor.

[Orrex]

6. A question about sequence

First of all, I wanted to ask in my first post but forgot:

Were the three sub-books of "Dune" originally published together or as three separate and smaller novels? I suspect that they were always combined, but I was wondering.

Is there a good site I can consult that (with no spoilers, preferably!) will list the books in the proper sequence, so that if I want to read the whole series I go in the right order? Or doesn't it matter?

Any in the series that I should avoid?

I hear that the books not written by Frank Herbert himself are notably inferior; is this true?

Thanks for the info!

[China_cat]

7. The 3 original books

are Dune, Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

The ones after those 3 go downhill very, very quickly. In fact, the slide actually starts with God Emperor because it goes on about a hundred pages longer than it should have.

[JitterbugPerfume]

8. My favorite Sci -Fi

that is---along with Asimovs Foundation series

I hope you enjoy it

The Sci Fi mini series is good too , but the origional movie is far superior

There is no genre better than GOOD sci fi in my opinion

Ny books are packed in boxes awaiting our move to Florida (sigh)

on edit--I meant to respond to Orrex,The origional poster

[Salviati]

12. The prequels written by Brian Herbert...

are much inferior to the originals, they're not utterly terrible, but at best they're decent pulp SF.

The sequence of the originals is:

Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse Dune

Peoples tastes vary, so I don't think you should avoid any of them, at least for a first reading...

[Orrex]

10. Okay, another minor editorial quibble (not a spoiler)

I've got to get this off my chest: I'm reading Book Three: The Prophet, and if Herbert mentions Chani's "elfin face" or "elfin features" one more time, I'm going to freak out. We get it--she's elfin. Is there no other word to describe her?

Similarly, Jessica is repeatedly described as having an "oval" face. Come on, Frank--work a little harder! Once or twice is fine, but over and over again (or is that "oval and oval again") is just plain excessive.

Also, within two pages Herbert describes a crowd four times either as a "throng" or as "people thronged there." Honestly, any editor worth his spice should have fixed that, because it adds nothing to the text except a distraction, and it seems simply careless. Herbert is clearly a better writer than that, but little glitches like this really bother me.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

13. "The Dune You Will Never See" by Alejandro Jodorowsky

I recently came by this article by Jodorowsky (El Topo, Holy Mountain) about his attempt to film Dune. It would have starred Salvador Dalí as the Emperor (getting paid £100,000 an hour!) and would have been designed by HR Giger & Chris Foss (Alien) and a soundtrack by Pink Floyd.

(The article is a translation & not a brilliant one at that, but it makes for interesting reading)

http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=859

HR Giger's work:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=860

Chris Foss' work:
http://www.arthurmag.com/magpie/?p=861

----------------

As to the book, I can't comment. I own a copy, but haven't got round to it yet.

[Orrex]

14. Okay, so I've started on "Dune Messiah"

I'm about 102 pages into it, and here's the approximate breakdown:

Pages 1 to 65: Lots of intrigue. Intrigue, intrigue, intrigue. Conspirators. Intrigue. Some stuff about the Bene Gesserit and a guy with a rubber face. More intrigue. And some more.

Pages 66 through 85: Intrigue! Buckets and buckets of intrigue, with Paul and Alia and Chani and Irulan, and then some more intrigue. Followed by intrigue. A smattering of Fremen slogans and then some more intrigue.

Pages 87 through 88: The young Alia strips naked, bathes, and then engages in some nude swordplay with a prism-dummy until she's interrupted by Paul and Stilgar, both of whom take appreciative note of her nudity.

Pages 89 through 101: Intrigue! A big steaming pile of intrigue, with an extra splash of intrigue for good measure. Then there's some intrigue involving a Steersman who's scored some facetime with Paul. After this we get an offhand mention of Genghis Khan, who killed 4 million, and Emperor Hitler, who killed 6+ million. "Pretty good for those days," notes Paul, with apparent admiration. We then learn that paul has, by his own admission, killed upwards of 61 billion.

Page 102: Intrigue, complete with a body found decapitated in the desert with its hands cut off. Alia has taken the time to put clothes on, by the way.


I have to say that I'm almost bored out of my mind, the nubile Alia notwithstanding. I know that Herbert is praised for the rich tapestry of his Duniverse, but all of this intrigue within intrigue makes me want to pluck my eyes out.

Why is it that Paul and Alia, in spite of their supernaturally sharp prescience, seem to be worse at reading people than anyone else in the book and, honestly, than anyone I've ever met?

I complained upthread that, in Dune, Herbert never fails to describe Chani as "elfin" and Irulan as having an "oval" face. He seems to be continuing that trend here.

Also, I find Herbert's third-person omniscient POV to be frankly amateurish, and it invariably follows this formula:

Person One says Thing A.
Person Two reacts to that Thing A while thinking Thing B.
Person One says something else about Thing A while thinking that Person Two is pondering Thing B.
Person Two says something else about Thing A while thinking that Person One knows that Person Two is thinking about Thing B

And so on.

I'm sorry to say that I'm not greatly impressed. Dune is considered a cornerstone of serious science fiction, but there are some basic flaws in the story, the characterizations, and the writing. I'll finish the book because it's so short, but...

[Dr. Strange]

15. My dear Orrex,

I'm about 102 pages into it, and here's the approximate breakdown:

Pages 1 to 65: Lots of intrigue. Intrigue, intrigue, intrigue. Conspirators. Intrigue. Some stuff about the Bene Gesserit and a guy with a rubber face. More intrigue. And some more.

Pages 66 through 85: Intrigue! Buckets and buckets of intrigue, with Paul and Alia and Chani and Irulan, and then some more intrigue. Followed by intrigue. A smattering of Fremen slogans and then some more intrigue.

Wheels within wheels, my friend.
Will he heed my challenge? Dr. Strange wondered. I fear he won't be up to it, what with his elfin intelligence.

Pages 87 through 88: The young Alia strips naked, bathes, and then engages in some nude swordplay with a prism-dummy until she's interrupted by Paul and Stilgar, both of whom take appreciative note of her nudity.

:woohoo:

Pages 89 through 101: Intrigue! A big steaming pile of intrigue, with an extra splash of intrigue for good measure. Then there's some intrigue involving a Steersman who's scored some facetime with Paul. After this we get an offhand mention of Genghis Khan, who killed 4 million, and Emperor Hitler, who killed 6+ million. "Pretty good for those days," notes Paul, with apparent admiration. We then learn that paul has, by his own admission, killed upwards of 61 billion.

Page 102: Intrigue, complete with a body found decapitated in the desert with its hands cut off. Alia has taken the time to put clothes on, by the way.

And what are Paul's feelings about the jihad? This is an important point. Pay attention!

I have to say that I'm almost bored out of my mind, the nubile Alia notwithstanding. I know that Herbert is praised for the rich tapestry of his Duniverse, but all of this intrigue within intrigue makes me want to pluck my eyes out.

Do you know what the Fremen do with their blind? Soon, you will!

Why is it that Paul and Alia, in spite of their supernaturally sharp prescience, seem to be worse at reading people than anyone else in the book and, honestly, than anyone I've ever met?

I never got that impression. To me, it came across more as not really caring what other people thought.

Also, I find Herbert's third-person omniscient POV to be frankly amateurish, and it invariably follows this formula:

Person One says Thing A.
Person Two reacts to that Thing A while thinking Thing B.
Person One says something else about Thing A while thinking that Person Two is pondering Thing B.
Person Two says something else about Thing A while thinking that Person One knows that Person Two is thinking about Thing B

And so on.

This is all easily understood in light of Joseph Campbell's Hero Myth. Maybe if you read more you'd be smart enough to figure this out. There! I've played the Campbell card. Now he has no choice but to respect my opinion.

I'm sorry to say that I'm not greatly impressed. Dune is considered a cornerstone of serious science fiction, but there are some basic flaws in the story, the characterizations, and the writing. I'll finish the book because it's so short, but...

But after that, you will continue. You will read Children of Dune. And then you will read God Emperor of Dune. And then you can stop, because that is where you choose to stop. And also because the last two books in the series aren't as good if you ask me.

[TZ]

16. I wish I could recommend this post!!

BWAHAHA! You sliced and diced Mr. Orrex quite well there, doc! The only thing I'd disagree with is I liked the last two books. Both are better than Dune Messiah, which is my least favorite.

[Orrex]

17. Would you two get a room already?

[TZ]

18. See dude..

this is why you need to be on FB...we talk behind your back about you ALL THE TIME...:evilgrin:

[Orrex]

19. ,

Pages 87 through 88: The young Alia strips naked, bathes, and then engages in some nude swordplay with a prism-dummy until she's interrupted by Paul and Stilgar, both of whom take appreciative note of her nudity.

:woohoo:

She's Hawt.

[Dr. Strange]

20. Oh yes, abomination hawt!

[Dr. Strange]

21. Okay, are you done yet?

[Orrex]

22. Oh. Yeah. Finished it about a week ago. (SPOILERS)

So Herbert once again opts to resolve major plot points with a few quick, off-camera executions.

Frustrating.

[TZ]

23. Try Children of Dune

I think you'll like it better.

[Orrex]

32. As a matter of fact, you're right!

The writing is much better than in the previous two books, and I find the story substantially more interesting. It almost seems as though Frank paused for breath at some point and calmed down before diving into it. There's a better sense of control and restraint in the writing IMO, and the characters are more fully rendered.

At some point I may need to go back and read Dune again, but probably not for a while.


Are any of the non-Frank Dune books worth reading?

[TZ]

33. I've read them all and think they are okay.

I happen to like the House Atreides-House Harkonnen-House Corrino series very much. I believe the good freak Doctor likes the last two books Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune the best.

[Dr. Strange]

24. Did you see the Children of Dune miniseries?

The end of the "Dune Messiah" portion was like the end of The Godfather.

But wasn't Paul clever in the way that he avoided godhood? It may not end the Jihad, but at least it slows down the bloodshed. Unless the wrong person tries to take Paul's place. I wonder who will fill his shoes? If only there was a way to find out...

[Orrex]

25. Can't I just read the Wiki entry?

I mean, isn't CoD like four million pages?


Grumble...


Okay, how's this: I'll read it, but if any woman is described as "elfin" or as having an "oval face," you owe me a brazillion dollars.

[Dr. Strange]

26. Well, Chani is dead, so you don't have to worry about her being described.

And I'm pretty sure Alia is going to be getting all kinds of nekkid again. So, what do you have to lose?

[Orrex]

27. Page 18, you bastard!

Alia's bronze hair was pulled back into two golden water rings. Her oval face held a frown, the wide mouth with its downturned hint of self-indulgence was held in a tight line.

That'll be one brazillion dollars. Pay up, you fink!

[Dr. Strange]

28. How much is a brazillion?

[Orrex]

29. Here's another piece of unforgivable writing:

In the space of two sentences, he uses the phrase "a mouthful of gruel" not once but twice! TWICE! Inexcusable!

I guess they don't have editors in the 111th century, or whenever...

[Dr. Strange]

30. Is this the book where he talks about something having a temperature of negative something Kelvins?

Might have been Dune Messiah, but it came across as a kick in the scientific crotch.

Nonetheless, the series is still awesome.

[Orrex]

31. Haven't seen that one yet--I'll watch for it

I'll give Frank this much--his choice to outlaw computers was brilliant, and it shows that he knew that he'd never be able to predict the capabilities of computers nine millennia from now. In a genre dominated by evil robots and pychotic AIs (especially when he was writing), he went in the opposite direction and eliminated the whole cliche.

Sure, we later got The Butlerian Jihad, but that's not Frank's fault.

On the other hand, I'm troubled by the basic premise, which strikes me as hopelessly elitist: a tiny handful of well-bred elites casually decide the fate of hundreds of billions of people, and they do so with a smug cynicism that I find really distasteful. I don't like it that every time we see Alia or Jessica or any other Bene Gesserit we have to hear how easily they see through everybody's hopelessly transparent body language and inflection:

"How did you like your Reuben?" asked Alia, her oval face fixed in the Bene Gesserit pose of practiced disinterest.

"It was delicious, milady," said Bob the seitch-cleaner. "Thank you."

The deceiver! thought Alia, noting his tone. He obviously doesn't care for sauerkraut, and he just as clearly judges the corn beef to be past its prime. Who is he to presume to lie me? The sister of Muad'Dib? Does he not know that his dishonesty is as plain as the sand on the wind?

And I'm more than a little disappointed that he totally stole that whole "desert planet" and "destined-for-greatness fraternal twins" thing from George Lucas. So what if Frank did it first?!?

[Orrex]

34. Okay, in God-Emperor of Dune, Leto Jr. is a real asshole

No spoilers beyond that.

[TZ]

35. Well, yeah.

The whole point of God-Emperor is that humanity basically deserves Leto, jr. At least thats the message I got. I actually found most of the characters in this novel unsympathetic but its a well done book nonetheless.

[Orrex]

36. About the only one who's sympathetic is The Duncan, and I still don't really like him

[Dr. Strange]

37. Yes, but the assholery serves a purpose.

The Golden Path is the only way to save humanity, and it requires this "ultimate predator" as Leto calls himself.